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| Do you think you pattern fish or do you pattern your presentations?
Think about it!
marc | |
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| LOADED Question,,Hmmmm
Productive presentation for the most part.. Sometimes fish but only when I have consistant wheather and water temps.
I have had times where I said I would catch a fish on this spot.. and did. But consistant productive presentations are for the most part the major factors in my success | |
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| I pattern fish practically every time. The trick to good success is to figure out:
1) What are they eating, considering the time of year, the available forage, etc.
2) Where is this forage?
THEN it is time to decide upon a lure and presentation that will turn the fishes head! | |
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| I develop a pattern on the water, and catch fish if I am correct, but rarely actually pattern a specific fish; as in_ "I am going to go out and catch the 52" that lives in such and such a place today at 9:30".
I may know where she is, and when she should be active, but that is a 'section' of the overall pattern as a rule.
Usually the pattern involves weather( by the barometer), solunar periods, forage, water temps, wind direction and speed,sky conditions, and a 'feeling' I developed over 30 plus years of chasing these silly critters...[:0] | |
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| Assuming you mean "pattern" to be "finding a predictable fish position", at times.
But more often I "assume" a pattern and present baits to that unproven hypothesis.
Due to the fact that we can do nothing to control fish response, we must concentrate on the fisherman input side of the equation.
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| Great answer, FSF!![:)] | |
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| Marc,
I don't think the two can be seperated.
I pattern fish, especially by water temp/time of year and then pattern by presentation to try to maximize my catch rate.
An example: Water temps have fallen to 38 degrees in the late fall at lake X. I know that at that temp the fish should be starting to use the deepest hard bottom transition areas in that lake (patterning the fish), so I start to work these areas and find that my vertical jig presentation is out producing my live bait. I pull in my live bait and just work my jigs because I can work faster, covering more ground and thus getting on more fish (patterning your presentation).
I think the two go hand in hand.
Joel Tinker
Top Tackle Guide Service
www.toptackle.com
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| Trying to pattern a musky is much different than getting a pattern together for bass or walleye. You usually just don't see enough musky in a day of fishing to come up with a pattern. The likelyhood of coming up with a pattern probably increases with the amount of time you spend on the water and then even more depending on the activity level of the fish. For example: if you fish lake x every day you should start to get a pretty good handle on what the fish are doing. You may be thrown a curve with weather changes or just a general lack of activity for some time, but getting back on a pattern should be easier because you're a little more "tuned in" to what has been happening. If you're only able to fish lake x once every couple of weeks, coming up with a "pattern" is not as easy. If you've kept a log or have a good memory you should have a good starting point, but you still might not see a fish all day. What then? I think a better statement might be- "do you eliminate patterns until you find one that works?" You really can't even begin to think you have a pattern put together until you get several different responses from the fish. Ask a tournament bass angler who just won a tournament what a pattern is and he'll say that he got so tuned in that he knew the exact location to fish (could be multiple locations, but the same type of spot), the exact lure to use (including the size and color) and the exact retrieve. Trolling on a lake like St. Clair with multiple lines out is about as close as most get to that type of pattern.
Do you pattern fish really begs these questions.
What do you do when you get a follow?---The standard answer is throw something similar, but smaller. Throw a topwater. Throw rubber. Hope the fish sees your sucker down there. If you were lucky enough to catch the fish, did you just trigger a response or are you closer to coming up with a pattern? What do you throw after the catch? The lure that triggered the follow or the lure that caught the fish?
What do you do when you catch a fish?---Do you keep throwing the same bait? Most bass fisherman would not say they have a pattern going after they caught their first bass. Can you guage how aggressively the fish hit and start to "fine tune" your presentation? You've just gotten a positive response. Is now the best time to start tinkering?
What do you do when you don't even see a fish?---Here's the real tough one. Do you try a bunch of different presentations 'til you come up with something? I think this is why many of us don't have confidence in certain fishing styles. We only try different presentations when what we normally do isn't working. Or is this the time to stick with what has worked in the past. Pound your good spots and use the presentations you know best.
The last question I have is: if you really think about all this stuff when you're fishing, are you thinking too much? | |
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| Great answers,FSF you are close to my thinking.Steve I beleive you are correct.
My assumption of patterning fish is hard.
I suspect you may pattern a structutal habit,ex sunny days fish are along a certain break or weed croping or relay under certain condition to open water.
I think we pattern our presentation to structural elements and weather more than we do to fish.
Hear me out,a spinner bait bites on,fish dont eat spinner baits!Its your bait of choice under those conditions to attain the fish.
My beleif is patterns are directly associated with our presentation and may be irrelevant to what the fish are realy doing.
In my mind,to pattern fish,you realy must know their daily habits and movements.Wich is very hard to do.We pattern locations with the best presentable aproach.Sometimes it works sometimes its fall ball.
I presume we pattern in our minds fish with our most confident aproach.
Some great perceptions here.
Marc Thorpe
Quest Global Adventures.com
www.total.net/~drow1/ | |
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| Joel,seems to me your pattern is your presentation under negative fish conditions.
I may be wrong,this is the way I perceived your reply.A good one at that.
Your fish are not hitting suckers but your subtle presentation of a jig and easy picking in their face is key here.Do you think putting another bait would trigger fish?
If so,we may have a pattern to that particular location.If the same presentation holds on all structures,then we have a fish pattern.If it is locational,then its a structural pattern.
Let me know what you think?
Marc Thorpe
Quest Global Adventures.com
www.total.net/~drow1/
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| Marc.. I love this topic..
I for one believe that you can find the fish, but its your presentation and boat control that is going to get it for you. The wheather also play a big part in the equation too. You can have a fish right there.... but you have to be able to "trigger" it to strike.
I keep good logs and have multiple patterns that stand out during the season. I run those and try out new ones. My lake may be small I have launched my boat in it well over 1000 times, but there still is more to learn. I come up with new successfull patterns and fish locations each year. Thats what I really enjoy about muskie fishing, its the hunt. | |
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| Cool Jason,your stand outs,are they presentation patterns or fish patterns?
Fish patterns are in my perception related to movements,whether be seasonal or migrational.
Let me know what you think?
Jason,you know as well as I do,years change and no two are the same.Cycles are part of presentation patterns.
marc | |
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| Marc,
WOW, did you have me going on this one! Had this big, long convoluted bunch of jibber-jabber (not too different from many of my posts) that got into simantics and definitions, until I realized that nothing I was saying nor anything that has been said in this post would do anything for anyone in regards to putting fish in the boat. Am I missing something here?
I do have a question, however. In your question to Jason ("are they presentation patterns or fish patterns") can you explain to me the differnce? | |
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| Years do change.. But many of the same spots will continue to hold fish....In time
I had spots this year that produced for me all year long in the past. But they were almost vaccant of muskies until fall when things got back to normal....But I keeped an open mind and check them from time to time. Eventually the patterns came back, and I scored.
I still believe in serching out new spots and patters, infact that is most of the fun in muskie fishing.
But you cant forget the consistant patterns you have had in the past, those in time will always come back and give you a few more fish in the boat.
Weather is the "key", to what I do on a daily basis. If factors match the consistant patterns on certain spot I have done well on in the past.. I go for them. But without a correct presentation on those spots...you will come out with nothing.
I have areas that if I see 6 to 10 anglers fish through it... I know I can still come back.. fish it with a correct presentation and bring one out.
Confidence, is another big factor that must not be overlooked.[;)] | |
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| Wow Marc, this is a pretty "deep" conversation.
Musky Philosophy 101 should be the title of this one.
Anyway, I'll still stick to my viewpoint of patterning is possible... and we pattern BOTH location and presentation.
Location is the most important (you can't catch what isn't there) and presentation is the most variable. Some days you can catch a fish on a bare hook, and other days you need to use every trick in the book to get a response.
Bottom line, without establishing the location element FIRST.... it doesn't matter what you use for a presentation. Understanding the daily and seasonal movements of muskies is definitely important for reducing the amount of time needed to figure out the locational element. Presentation is also a factor in confirming the locational element. Many times the process of identifying location requires too different presentations... one designed for locating fish and another (if needed) to trigger strikes.
That is why the F+L+P = Success In-Fisherman formula is so sound. When you find a PATTERN it is composed of both location and presentation. Depending on the circumstances, the presentation may be very simple.... or very tedious. We all want to find the pattern that requires the EASIEST and most efficient presentation.
So, do we pattern fish? You bet. We pattern where they are at any given time and what will make them eat. Both can change by the minute!!!
jlong | |
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| Joel,read you will understand the meaning of the question.
FSF and mr Balistic,grazed the thinking behind the question.
In my perception,patterning fish is very hard to do.40 inchers are 40 inchers,but good ones are individuals.
You may be casting a weed line and black bucktails are the cats meow! on the opposite shore line,a weed line on a point with some rock out cropings and the fish are boggeying to Bobbie.You have a presentation pattern in relation to location,possibly bait fish relayed.Not a fish pattern.
You have located several girlfriends on the beach.On sunny days, a couple of them go and sulk in the lush coontails.Slapping their heads gets them quacking,on east wind days they have tea at the local point and get croped up on top of the structure,you spill one of the cups and one comes screaming her head off and crushes your bait.In the evening the same girls go for stroll at the local cabbage bed and they hate your teaser tail.
You head down highway 94 and you cut them off at the next interstate with your crank baits.
You have established individual fish patterns.
You cannot generalise fish patterns.
To realy establish fish patterns ,you must establish individual habits and locations and movements.By recapturing and visualy sighting individuals, you can establish fish patterns.Knowing wich conditions place certain individuals in certain locations under certain weather patterns.
I agree several factors in patterning habits must be observed.You cannot establish fish patterns because you have a hot spinner bait bite,its your presentation pattern thats working.Does it work everywhere at the same time or does it change from location to location.
Jason Smith,your lucky pot.You have either patterned a presentation to that location or you are recapturing the same fish.You would know.In that case you have patterned that individual to that location under a specific presentation pattern.
How deep do we go!
marc | |
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| Jlong,we talk about stimuli,but all in all establishing where and when they eat is whats most important.If a fish is not hungry or grumpy.You aint gona catch it.Consider how many there are versus capture.Beleive me we suck!
F+L+P yes I beleive it,establish your fishes habits,then relate it to location,then present then your scrumpcious offerings!
As far as stimuli and water displacement,well I think its activity level with water density and water temps that make certain vibes out produce others.Why do certain lures work best in summer and others in fall,why do certain produce consistently big fish.Take a closer look.
take care
marc | |
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| Another question,
Do you think the jet stream alters your fish habits or patterns from season to season or year to year?
How does that affect yearly fish patterns?
Ya got enough shovels! | |
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| Marc,
I have read, but not sure I reached any understanding of your definition between fish patterning or presentation patterning. Might be my own ingnorance, sure am missing something here.
You see no fish pattern here:
"You may be casting a weed line and black bucktails are the cats meow! on the opposite shore line,a weed line on a point with some rock out cropings and the fish are boggeying to Bobbie.You have a presentation pattern in relation to location, possibly bait fish relayed. Not a fish pattern."
While at the same time I do: You have a pattern of fish relating to shallow structure and moving on baits running in the top three feet of the water column.
You want to call it "a presentation pattern in relation to location", but I call it a fish pattern; maybe not the most concise of fish patterns, but a pattern non the less.
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| Marc,
Changing Jet Streams have played a big part in changing patterns drasticly here on the big waters of the Niagara and Lake Erie.Less rain,warmer then normal tempratures,prevailing high pressure systems,have all played a part in changing the movement and habits of Muskies.Mostly due to changes in baitfish locations,not in the normal time frame of movement due to water tempratures being much warmer then normal.Prolonged periods of direct sunlight on waters that have become very gin clear due to no winds,rain and infestation of zebra mussels,have changed locations as well.Then add in the factor of change due to wind induction of water temprature change that may also only last for a short period of time with with wind direction change again.So in these days of rapid change,one must be willing to read all the signs before setting forth with there presentation.It simply is not as easy as a few years back when one could say that it is November,the water temprature is 45 degrees,the fish will be at a central location,as will the baitfish,and repeatability(using the same program that worked year after year)will be the ticket.Not so in todays changing climate,conditions change rapidly and one must adjust from day to day,sometimes more then one different pattern will be on again and off again in very short windows,minutes or hours.Being caught up in the old mainstay presentation can send you to the dock with SKUNK written on your forhead. | |
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| Marc, Joel aint the only one confused. I read your posts and some of them really pique my interest but must confess the further into them you go the less I understand. Perhaps you could clarify some of your posting with simple examples and simple language, or maybe I just don't understand at the level you do. (I know some of what you post is specific to your particular ecosystem and further adds to the difficulty of understanding your thoughts.)
I will say this. With my philosphy of creating a hypothetical pattern, and presenting baits to that hypothetical pattern-everytime I catch/raise a fish that hypothetical pattern is PROVEN. It may be high density, it may be low density, but I know that it exists. If I make a trip back to the same location after being skunked and catch/raise a fish on another bait, it still PROVES the location pattern I hypothesized to start with.
I know that sometimes I am fishing for a single fish, and that because I have tuned into and at least partially or intuitively understood the activities of that particular fish I catch him, but single fish really have no place in my theories of musky fishing or proving or disproving patterns and I am not sure why we are talking about them, I guess that is where I start to get confused and if I type anymore here I will be so confused I will go back and erase it and quit visiting this thread.......!!!!!!! | |
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| FSF,You got me rolling!
What it realy boils down to and you and Steve stated.The only true way of patterning fish is to understand individual habits and movements of certain particular or individual fish.Yes you must piece together all elements to patterning for that one fish.
Many examples have been established here but most are location or presentation patterns.Jason might have something.
If you recapture the same fish over and over on a similar presentation at the same location.
You have patterned that fish,now go find out where else it goes.You can now truly pattern that individual fish.
Hot bites on certain baits are presentation patterns.Certain producing areas are location patterns.Yes combine them all,with weather and you have succes but not a fish patttern.
Joel my example is basicaly that,a presentation pattern related to location.Not a fish pattern.Sure it works but the meaning of the question was
Do you pattern fish or your presentation
My answer we pattern our presentations,unless!
Fsf this is not above anyone,on the contrary its educational for all the folks who see these threads.It is important for them to see the way we perceive our plans of attack on the water.The great thing about these exchanges,diversity.Yes enviromental elements are key to seasonal location and behavior changes.
marc | |
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| (Marc, I am not sure we are communicating so I have had my dog read your post and respond here...)
Hey Marc, what my idiot master was trying to state in his earlier post was that he does not really consider an individual fish as much of anything other than as part of a population, even though at times he does get involved with an individual fish, usually in a set location over a period of time or a closely related set of structural elements, and does indeed direct some thought and theory to that single fish. Though he does this, he still sees that fish as a representation of a population of say, shallowly, located fish in Lake X. And I can tell by looking in his eyes that he doesn't even grasp the concept of a presentation pattern or if he does, doesn't lend it much creedence, from the way I have heard him harp about it in his boat, presentation is related to attitude and location and little else. He may be just a little slow on the uptake here and lets face it, intuitive? not!! he hasn't even been able to sense that I need a snack before bedtime...how about clarify THAT to him if you talk to him anymore.
thanks,
Spot | |
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| Spot,I think your master understood what I was saying.He may not pay much attention to patterning individuals but the answer to the question is you cannot generalise fish patterns on fish,you are patterning presentations in relation to location.We all get wrapped up in big words but when closly observed,its a simple answer!
I was realy interested in others perception of patterning fish.We all are similar but we dont pattern fish.
FSF,get that dog a snack before bed time.
Have him on the boards more often,seems to remember more than most of us.
Spot I hope you masters still talks to me after going for a stroll down into the abyss off my brain!
Someone said this is a deep question,well how deep do we go? | |
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| FSF,now we pattern presentations and location but not realy fish unless we home in on individual fish and their habits.Its a deep question.Fish do relate differently in different ecosystems and availible enviroments.We have answered that question,the next question must be answered.
Do you think the jet stream affect's your yearly patterns and changes in fish locations from year to year? | |
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| For everyone interest,these questions are part of the solution of why certain folks consistently catch numbers of good fish year after year.With little to no change in their succes throughout their years of fishing.
They are made to take a closer look at what you doing and what you may be missing out on!
take care
marc | |
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| I've been typing for 30 minutes and have no idea if I'm making any sense. It only took seconds to hit the delete key. AAAAAARRRRRGGGGGG!!!!!!!!!! | |
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| Bob,confusing.Dont worry we will find the post.
Looks like Jlong droped out!
Everyone confused[:bigsmile:]
You should not be,just think about it.
Where's my next answer? | |
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| Marc,
I didn't really drop out, but I gotta admit I'm getting just as confused as FSF. Seems to me you are contradicting yourself, which makes it difficult to make a counterpoint since you've already done that.
Is it location or presentation? Chicken or the egg? I think the location/presentation issue is much easier to answer.
We pattern BOTH. The first and most critical is patterning fish location. Then we establish which locations have the most aggressive fish. Then we figure out which presentation will be the most efficient tool. For aggressive fish, presentation is almost a NON issue. They will hit anything that moves. For neutral or negative fish, the presentation becomes a MAJOR factor and catching fish becomes more of a challenge for two reasons: 1) since fish are less responsive it is more difficult to confirm the locational element and 2) the less responsive they are, the more difficult it is to identify the precise presentation required to connect.
On a good day, there may be 10 different types of locations/structures holding fish. Each type of location my be holding fish with different levels of aggressiveness. You want to find which location has the MOST aggressive fish to be most productive. You don't want to meticulously pick apart the slop for one fish when you could have been quickly burnin' bucktails along the weedline and caught 3 fish. Patterning location FIRST will prevent that from happening.
As far as patterning individual fish, I think that is really limiting yourself and may only be beneficial when times are really really really tough and you need an "ace in the hole" card to make the day a success. Otherwise, I consider that most locations are a revolving door and may inhabit many different individuals at the same time or at different times. So, when I pull up to a spot... I'm asking myself WHO is home, How many are home, Where are they hiding, and what is the easiest way to get them to show themselves?
As far as the jet stream goes.... don't care. I fish when I can fish and think considering that type of environmental condition will only muddy the waters so to speak. I'll let the lake tell me how the jet stream has affected things. You know, look for baitfish, check the thermocline depth, etc. Sure, having some insight or experience with how the jet stream may affect the locational aspect would be beneficial... but how consistent is it? Probably not very, and certainly not something I'd want to rely on. Humble me if you can [:p]
jlong | |
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| er, ah ..... Jason, why don't you tell him what you think! Oh and be direct... LOL!!! | |
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| Jason,the long wordings has spun many round.
You have aswered the question.
You pattern your location and presentation.
In assumption we gather that we pattern fish when in all reality you are only patterning your presentatiom versus location.Yes some fish are cooperating.But its not what all fish are doing.
To pattern you must establish behavioral habits,wich cannot be done on all fish.
Your thinking on individuals,well honestly what most think is a waste of time for others its their consistency.One thing to take into consideration is the waters we fish.The smaller it is the more limited in possibilities you have.The larger it is,the more possibilities you have at establishing patterns.Yes several patterned elements must come together for you to put all pieces together.It takes many years also of gathering certain particualr info.
Jason,you think the Jet stream has little bearing on your season.
My good friend,watch it every spring.It will tell you where the prevailing winds will be set up for the season.That directly affects fish location from year to year,as long as the stream has changed.Maybe some parts are less affected by it but most are.
The answer to did the Chicken or the egg come first,neither!They came from Dinosaurs!Evolution I think was the recepie.
The interesting thing about these exchanges is the way we perceive our plans off attack.
Jlong,your quest is to establish patterns in catching fish.You have put the right elements together and succed at them.
My self I home in on certain individuals,yes many individuals do use the same location.But a closer look has led me to see that certain fish have patterned habits,yes in accordance to other patterned elements.But you can never go out and say I will get that 50 there at that time.But you do know that once the elements of patterns have come together your chances at succes are higher.
Thorpidium out!
Must go and pattern New Jerseyites!
On a final note,during this festive time give to the needy,Its a bad time to be poor cause most dont give a shyte no more!
Have a wonderfull Christmas
Marc Thorpe
Regional [email protected] | |
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| Marc,
Been sitting back on this one to see where it lead. I thought I was missing the boat on something, but now realize that was not the case. This tread is ending up just where I thought it would and I had no interest in going there.
This whole issue is nothing but simantics and who's definition of "fish patterning" you want to use. Your definition (as best I can decipher it) can only involve one fish, while I believe most fishermen consider the definition to include many fish.
It's not that anyone is right or wrong here, but I believe you would be better served to use the definition that most use, at least when trying to explain yourself, as this is where the confusion for most is coming from.
When I have clients ask me to help them learn how to pattern muskies or fish in general, I don't take them around the lake and tell them: "Well, if you pull up to this spot on an overcast morning before 9AM with a wind blowing in and a rising baro. you'll find old mossback here feeding on perch". Or, "At this spot just before dark fish Billy-Bob can be taken if it is calm and the ciscoes are feeding on mosquitos at the surface". What they are looking for is information as to why a certain segment of the population of fish being targeted (muskies in our discussion) are doing simular things at simular times. Sometimes we have this knowledge prehand from our years on the water and recognition of several factors that are present at the time. But, often it is derived from being on the water every day and knowing what the fish (NOT A FISH) is likely to be doing that day and when they may be doing it.
I know I'm not telling you anything new here, I'm not trying to, except to say that this is how most everyone defines "fish patterning". If you decide to use a different definition that is fine, but don't be surprised when you confuse folks as you have done here.
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| Hey Joel, I like your viewpoint and interpretion of this mind boggling debate. After reading Marc's final rebuttal, I've come to realize another factor being overlooked. Perhaps guys like Marc who are pounding the same water almost every day have the luxury to pattern individual fish and correlate success to the jet stream.
Unfortunately, there are very very very few people fortunate enough to do such a thing. The WEEKEND WARRIORS such as myself need to establish a technique for finding fish and catching them from ground ZERO. The weekend guys are often fishing NEW water and are forced to fish when they have the opportunity. Both very BIG handicaps that must be dealt with.
Depending on your perspective, what we are trying to "pattern" will change drastically. The less frequent you get on the water and the less experience you have.... your techniques and strategies for putting fish in the boat will shift towards the simple, yet efficient process of elimination.
Look at tournaments. Way too often the most seasoned anglers are shown up by the "rookies" that have mastered a "simple" technique that most efficiently finds the "pattern". Plus, in tournaments just catching "A" fish is better than catching "THE" fish.
Man, this is a strange topic. I don't even remember what my original point was going to be. Just rambling now....
Merry Christmas Everyone!!!!!!!
jlong | |
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| Guys,nobody is wrong or right on this one.Jason you did comprehend where I was going.
Joel this what not symantic's.If you look up the defination of pattern ,you must establish behavioral habits.Wich can only be done individualy.Yes many fish relate the same but we cannot generalise certain fishes habits,even individuals.Because they are not all doing the same thing at the same time.
The hole point of this discussion was to make the good folks on this board read our perspective of the ways we fish.
Jason,yes you are right.Being able to spend as much time on the water as I can has led me to discover certain intriguing elements.
Yes I have several bunnnies in my hat, that come with time on the water.This does not mean I am above anyone,just fortunate to have been able to observe some very unique things.
I am not one to shamelessly promote what I know or do but also question the info that seems to work for me.I am always interested in others perspective aproach to muskie fishing.No one could ever (other than 2 others)understand what I experience or have seen over the years.Its beyond my understanding many times.Got to admit,even the high flyers of the busness have never seen this.Remember we all have theories of putting our personal knowledge together.
Yes I do know how to twist things a little to make everyone look at their tails but no harm or pun was intendended.Its sole purpose was to educate and take a look at what we focus on.My intentions were to pull the best of your knowledge and perception out,wich I beleive was accomplished.
I must admit,its been a great discussion.
What we must all understand is the difference in the regions we live in and the expectations others have when fishing with any of us.Some is to produce fish and others are for good ones.In the end we are all alike,the passion drives us to enjoy and endeavor in this great sport.
What we must understand is to get info such as I use in my targeting a specific fish takes,tagging studies,some telemetry and other telemetry studies in relation and good honest info over years with some most trusted buddies.This is unique to certain bodies of water but is also at the mercy of the fishes mood.
Wishing everyone here a merry Christmas
Marc Thorpe
Quest Global adventures.com | |
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Do you think you pattern fish?