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| Anyone truly concerned about proper Muskie handling should read Rod Ramsell's (Larry's cousin) article in the Fall 2004 issue of Esox Angler(no I not trying to promote Esox Angler-although it deserves it) I have known Rod for many years, back to the time he was the Editor of the Muskies Inc. mag. (To long ago to even think about) Although Larry can be controversial, Rod is one of the straightest arrows I have ever meet and a key reason Minnesota has the Muskie fishery it now has. After almost 30 years of Muskie fishing I THOUGHT I knew how to handle Muskies correctly. Guess what, I didn't. Great read. Must read.
Steve
Edited by muskiemachinery 8/13/2004 1:06 PM
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Posts: 1185
Location: Wishin I Was Fishin' | I agree I will definetly read that one again! | |
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| I just finished that article last night and it really points out some very important concepts. I would suggest only taking pictures of larger muskies and just letting the smaller ones go while in the water.
I just returned from fishing MN for muskies the first time and the author can at least take partial credit for creating some outstanding musky fisheries.
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Posts: 1937
Location: Black Creek, WI | I'm not sure how to feel about that article. Informative...yes. Practical... not so sure. Obviously the article is well intentioned... however it seems to suggest that we need to become more extreme in our handling techniques. Heck... back in the 80's I got all caught up on the "water release" pushed so hard by Muskies Inc. Well... maybe I developed an EGO along the way, but after "water releasing" a few personal bests with either NO photos or some poor photos to preserve the memory... my handling practices changed. Selfish? Maybe. Feeding my Ego... probably. But... then again... why do we fish? I think it is for personal satisfaction. If a good photo is part of that "satisfaction"... then so be it. Now... that doesn't mean the fish should be mistreated and I will certainly do my very best to keep the stress on the fish to a minimum... but this is a fine line we are walking. Horizontal vs. Vertical, 30 seconds vs. 1 minute out of the water, water release vs. out of water pose, etc etc. Lots of personal decisions to make.... and I feel Rod Ramsell provided us all with some good information for us to consider when making those type of decisions.
With that said.... if we really want to live by Rod's recommendations then we should probably consider the opposite of Muskyboy. Seems that more damage is done when we lift a LARGE fish and the small ones are more resilient. So, perhaps we should only take pictures of the dinks and keep the big one's in our memory??? I doubt it. One or two clicks of the camera will always be a part of my release practices. Hopefully that is a good compromise between my ego and the fish's survival rate.
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | jlong, well said. | |
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| jlong and sworral,
Imagine your favourite muskie fishing water - maybe it includes the spot where you've raised your biggest fish, maybe this is somewhere you don't blab details about all over the internet.
Now imagine learning an entire chapter of a fishing club - say 80 boats - was visiting your honey hole for their July outing. A heat wave hits the region and surface water temps are in the high 80's.
Would you rather these these folks practiced water release and took in-water photos or would you rather they documented every fish with out-of-water video and still photography?
Think about it. | |
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| People have the right to photo big muskies, that is part of the hunt for most. Having said that the problem I see is the tranfer of the Big fish from the net into the boat. In my opinion that is where the damage can be done to a large fish. As the fish is lifted stress is focused on the gill area. Some times I think it may be safer to lift the fish in the net and then into the boat provided you have a fin saver net. Then you can safely grab the fish by the head and support its mid section. | |
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Location: Racine, Wi | I have not read the article, and Jason, that was a great commentary. The way I see it, is we all handle our muskies with no intention of harming them, and judging by the way some of these fisheries are exploding now, and the fish that are being caught, our release practices are doing well. There is still much that we can learn, and most importantly teach others about releasing fish. I myself will be taking pictures of my fish, and I am confident that they will survive to be caught again.
If you look at a certain SE WI lake that receives more pressure for muskies than any other in WI. It has produced 10 fish this year over 50"s. That in itself is a testament to our C&R techniques being practiced well.
There may be some fish lost, and at times it is our fault, but other times, there is nothing that can be done. We just need to do our best to see that each fish is handled the best way possible. | |
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Posts: 1245
Location: Madtown, WI | My opinion Michael for what its worth, if I had the scenerio you laid out, I would want them to take pictures. Because if it was me, I would want a picture. I have my wall at work covered in some great photos of fish I have caught, my fiancee has caught, or my kids have caught. I spend a lot of time staring at this pics.
Jason hit it right on the head and I agree with his perspective 100%. I was fortunate enought to stick a nice fish this year in Canada. We took the time to take a couple pics before slipping her back into the water. I supported her weight, kept her out of the water briefly and released her strong.
The majority of us her strongly want to preserve the awesome fisheries we have, but we do fish for them for various reasons. I don't think a picture with a fish is asking too much versus the alternative of thumping the fish.
Some fish will die, but not near as much as if we all thumped fish. We all have to balance what is good and what "we" need. Sure its best for the fish if you never touch them and release them with pliers at the boat. But I work too darn hard to not lift one for a quick photo.
Cory | |
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| I think Rod was trying to walk the line between what is the absolute best for the fish and what someone who has the catch of their life in hand. I'd have to guess he would prefer a pic to killing it. The main things I learned from the article were to keep my hands out the gills at all cost. (I wish he would have addressed if Grippers are a safe alternative) Are they hard on the mandiles? Can they seperate the jaw from the head? I will email Rod and ask. I also learned to support the body better. My focus was to not put the body weight on the spine between the head and the body. I didn't realize that a two point hold(which is what most of us now use) has the potenial to be harmful. I did not know that. A full arm support seems to make sense now that I think about it, but it would remove much more slime than a two point hold. A lot to think about and discuss here for sure.
Steve | |
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Posts: 619
Location: Seymour, WI | I also agree with most of these posts that I don't think a picture of a musky is too much to ask. For someone who gets to fish as often as they want, a picture may not be important, but for those of us who work everyday and fish on wk ends or take a few musky trips each yr, the pictures are part of what keeps us going.
I also think the Ramsell article came too close to saying that we shouldn't fish for muskies at all.
Grass, | |
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Posts: 136
| Has anybody looked into the data on what a razor sharp piece of metal does to a fish when it enters it's body?
How about fighting a fish till it is completely exhausted?
Muskies are fish.
They are fish.
Muskies are fish.
Special fish yes but they are not gods.
Handle them with care? Absolutely! No pictures? Heck just quit fishing then.
I can see it now. MN regulation 7654.3 When angling for Muskies fishermen should use hookless baits and nets without a bag. Get the Musky to swim through the hoop and you can then keep it if it is 60" long. Pictures are permited for fish over 50" but must be measured in the water but only if the Musky hasn't let go of the hookless baits.
Extreme? Yes.
Muskies are fragile. But look at any tracking study and actually ask the guys that have done the studies. Seems to me awhile back we had some anglers telling us that they caught the fish, unhooked them, transported them, inserted tracking devices in them, took pictures and released them. THEY LIVED!!!!! It's a fact. The Pewaukee study is one of them. Why did these fish survive this? I think we are in danger of over regulating Muskies and should ficus on basic education instead of worst case. Worst case we are fighting among ourselves while the kid who just bought his first Zebco has no idea AT ALL about anything to do with this fish.
Heck, I should just quit fishing cause I must be killing quite a few fish this year. (infomercial plug)
Back to fishing and creating more commercials.
S-
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| Thick Shady,
Who's fighting?
I really enjoyed Rod's article and I respect his credentials. Whether or not you agree with him, I don't think he deserves to be mocked by people like you.
Thanks muskiemachinery for drawing attention to an article I think will be valued by conservation-minded anglers for years to come.
Michael | |
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Posts: 136
| Michael, (Or whatever your real name is)
Where did I mock Mr. Ramsell? doesn't matter actually. The article is VERY informative and definetly made me think and reconsider some of my own handling techniques.
The "Ego Photo" portion is what I have a problem with.
I'd like to see a whole heck of alot more of what rod has to say. Absolutely agree that this artidle is a MUST read.
Just fish it.
Steve
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| from the perspective of someone who's caught a few fish, but not enough to have had it become "common"...the picture is IMPORTANT to me.
it's not about "Ego" - it's about being able to look back and remember a moment that's rare enough that it's still very special.
i'm a zealot about catch and release - and this article pointed some things out about how to handle fish better that i already put into use this weekend, luckily for me! careful with the hand near the gills; support the body along the side/muscles instead of from below. GOOD STUFF to help fish.
but i still took a picture, and i probably always will...and that's not about feeling good about me (ie. "Ego") it's about feeling good about the fish.
but as Steve pointed out - it's still a FISH. | |
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| In Ohio muskies are put and take,as a sportsman my license fees help pay for the fishery. I will do my best to release the fish as responsibly as I can, how ever technicaly I did pay for it a picture is not to much to ask for in return. I did learn a lot from the article and will put it togood use, muskies are great and I thank god for them. If we do our part as sportsmen and treat our resource with respect that is all any one can ask. We have all killed a few and probably never knew it if this saves a few more good, I think Rods goal will be acomplished. | |
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Location: ashtabula ohio | i agree with the thick one 100%.. sure i learned some things from the article also, and it is a good read, but it left me with a " then we shouldnt fish for them" feeling also... | |
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| Lucky,
You know, it left me with a bit of an uneasy feeling too. I really love muskie fishing but it also matters to me that my releases count. I've always wondered about those "releases" of mine that took several minutes to revive or those that lingered on the surface for a long time. Invariably, these were the fish that I'd taken out of the water (O-O-W) for an ego-shot (yes I have an ego!). Rod's article kinda confirmed a lingering doubt I'd had about the likelihood of these fish recovering. I live on a decent muskie lake and I encounter a half dozen or so floaters every season. I also spot the odd "sinker" - dead 'releases' lying on the bottom.
Anyone who's dabbled in water release will know that these fish are far more likely to depart with a face-soaking slap of the tail. Now the biologists say that these fish are much more likely to recover. This is valuable information to me.
Does this mean I'll never take an O-O-W photo of a fish again?
No...but you can bet I'll be far more selective about which fish I remove from the water. If upon landing, a fish can't maintain an upright orientation in the cradle or net, I'm not going to haul it out of the water. If its fins are hemmorhaging, I'm not going to haul it out of the water. If the in-water dehooking process (which may impair the fish's ability to respire) takes more than a a very few seconds, I'm not going to haul the fish out of the water. But I will ask my fishing partner to "keep shooting" as I work on the fish in the water. I'll still go home with fish photo's.
And I'll still pose for the odd O-O-W shot. If the fish isn't lolling about on its side, the colors look good and the water's cool, I'll still carefully lift a trophy-sized fish from the surface for a few seconds and a photo (but probably for fewer seconds than I would have before reading Rod's article).
Does it mean I'll judge those who choose to take O-O-W photos of all of their fish?
No...like the right to harvest a fish of legal size, that's their right.
I'm a little surprised at the negative response to Rod's article on this site. There's a very exciting up-side to Rod's essay. If we keep our minds open and pay just a little more attention to how we handle our fish, we could seriously reduce the number of releases that become turtle food a week later. This means more 30-pounders surviving to be 40-pounders, more 40's to 50's, and so on.
This needn't be an all-or-nothing, purist-vs.egomaniac, Nugent-vs-PETA issue. Even if 50% of anglers reduce their seasonal O-O-W time, by 50% on a given lake, this could greatly enhance the trophy or World Record potential of fisheries we already consider decent. For stressed wild fisheries, it my tip the equation in favor of recovery. I bet most of the folks on this board could reduce their yearly O-O-W time by half and still end up satisfying photos at the end of the season.
Thanks Muskie First for helping to advance a pretty important dialogue.
Michael
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Posts: 32882
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Well said, Michael. | |
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| I don't think just picking one out of a net and holding it for a picture when the water temps are less than 76 degrees will hurt anything. Gosh! The DNR presses on the abdomens of the fish to obtain eggs and milt for the hatchery. Those fish were trapped in nets, held in tanks, and then had the body slime wiped off with a towel, then had their abdomen pressed on. Then the DNR releases these fish and they live. What we do with catch and release is really no worse. | |
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| it's kind of funny.
Michael, you just made alot of Mr. Ramsell's points...in a much better way.
can we do better? i know i can! does it have to be "stop fishing" or "no photos"? no. there's a middle ground that helps preserve both the resource and our enjoyment of it. | |
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| Jason, you do bring up some interesting points to consider.
I generally do not respond to forum topics, but the Rod Ramsell piece got me reconsidering my current fishing practices in a way that I haven't for quite some time, so here goes...
First and foremost, the piece made me uncomfortable.
I do not like to admit to myself the fact that I have likely mishandled fish in the past. While reading the article, my mind flashed back to memories of fish that were slow to revive after being returned to the water following "just one more" photograph.
Eventually, of course, they'd all swim off. In the back of my mind though, on and off throughout the day, maybe driving home from the lake, I find myself wondering if by taking that extra photograph I'd forced a 36" fish to accumulate sufficient sublethal stressors to later expire out of view.
Jason, although I believe we share the same sentiment regarding the Ramsell piece, I must disagree with your assessment that the information contained therein is "impractical."
Catch and release is, indeed, extreme. Water release is not impractical - just less fun. Ramsell makes frequent reference to "ego" in connection with photo shoots. The urge for ego gratification is not selfish, arrogant or barbaric - just merely human. Although I can't say for sure, I do not believe he intended to insult by making the connection.
Of course, you're not Terrell Owens - just a fisherman who's done something he's proud of, and wants a memory of the occasion.
Of course, too, as others have mentioned, we all have a "right" to photograph any legal fish we catch - just as we have a right to harvest any legal fish we catch within the local legal bag limit. That said, just because we have a "right" to do something hardly makes it "right" - right?
You can't legislate morality, even with respect to such petty issues (in the broad scheme of things) as proper fish handling. After all, it appears perfectly legal for Michael Jackson to have slumber parties with ten-year-old boys, but something about it still makes people uneasy.
Of course, too, Cady's right - they're just fish, after all. I'm sure none of us are going to stop fishing for them any time soon.
Personally, as a result of the Ramsell piece, I'm going to practice water release as much as I can bring myself to do so in the future. I don't need any more pics of 36" muskies. That said, I stick a pig this fall, I'm going to be hard pressed to not snap a quick pic or two to preserve the memory...I just hope I'm able to always put the health of the fish above the service of my ego, and get it back in the water safe and sound. | |
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| I was just thinking back to how we used to handle the fish back in the 50's and 60's - we killed them. Then we all got some education and began arguing about the necessity of catch and release. Even if we all didn't do it right we tried our best and at least they went back into the water.
Now we've evolved to the point that we are discussing how to refine our release tactics to raise the percentages of those fish that will recover and live to be caught again and again.
We've come a long way baby!
In looking at our Wall of Fame at the cottage we have a few special pics of each of my kids first and largest muskies, some cherished pics of my Dad and I with a few fish from back in the 50's, and a pic of my largest fish. They are pictures that each carry a special story and can't be replaced. I also have an album with about 70 other pics of mostly just me holding a musky and when I look at them I realize that they don't mean much at all because the fish all look the same. I don't need another picture of me holding up a musky, it's just another picture in a book.
What I do now is take a in the water pic with the date and time printed just for keeping a log. Because I fish mostly by myself most of these aren't the best pictures but they serve my purpose. The last few years I've released the fish wiithout netting or putting it in the boat but that's just how I do it and I am not preaching to anyone. I think most of the people on this site respect the fishery enough to do the best job they can of releasing any muskie they catch.
So if you want to hold up that extra special fish for a picture I guess the concensus is to be careful, do it quick, and have a big smile.
Buddy
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Posts: 1264
Location: Stevens Point, Wi. | I have been reading these posts with a great deal of interest. As the years go by, I have noticed a huge swing in the reasons for my outdoor pursuits. Like most fisherman back in the 50's , most of the legal esox were given a good thump and we'd call it a day. Somewher in the 60's, for purely selfish reasons, I began releasing most of the fish in order to have more time on the water. Then catch and release came into vogue and I followed suit.
Like Mr. Solberg, I have a stack of fish pics. that I still love thumbing through and remembering times past. I especially enjoy the pics of my 2 boys as they grew up in the outdoors. Some years ago, as my fishing pursuits became more solitary, I quit taking pics. of fish, more from laziness than altruistic reasons. I have found that I really don't need pics. for remembering these adventures. When I get on a lake that I have visited before, I can usually recall just about every spot that has produced in the past, both caught and seen. The years may blend together, but the memories still thankfully remain firmly etched in this balding cranium.
Our reasons may be varied for picture taking, or even keeping a special fish, just as our reasons vary for why we pursue these creatures. I truely believe that most of us who frequent this site have the best interests of the fish in mind. If Mr. Ramsell's article saves a fish or 2 along the way, then it was worth his efforts. Our pursuit of these fish are constantly evolving, along with our education on how to care for them when we a fortunate enough to capture one. There are far greater dangers to our sport than a few quick pictures. I will continue to enjoy all the posted pics., especially the smiling faces behind the fish. After all, that's why wre out there. Relax and enjoy.. | |
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| Kudos to Mr Ramsel's cutting edge article and all of your concerning and valid comments. Personally I've limited my pics for several years to special events and people and a few big hogs, but I'm on the water more than the ave. guy so to each his/her own. The average catch gets kit glove treatment, stays in the water--in the net--while being unhooked/hooks cut often and is never out of the water more than a minute or two with extreme care in handling--protecting it's slime layer/gills/eyes/jaw/belly, etc. Measurements are in the water most of the time excepting tournaments/outings/big pigs if at all. I do get on others I see mishandling their fish as well and I do feel we more informed fisherman do need to spread the word to our "colleagues"--teach them well and kindly. I thank Mr Ramsell for giving us the ammo to support that tactic as well. Pics are for memories AND bragging rights--we all know that! Exceptional article that was extreme but is driving home some very imortant points and hopefully has taught us all even more about our beloved muskies....and will push us to the next level--awesome!
JK | |
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| I haven't talked to Rod about his article, but I suspect that he was trying to give us the best information possible about how our handling of muskies could possibly affect their survival. The "shock" effect, I suspect, was foremost in his article to get his points across. Rod knows first hand, although not mentioned in the article, in fact the contrary was expounded, that a lot of released muskies do indeed survive, but we can do much better.
I would like quote the abstract of the paper Rod and Kevin Richards presented at the Muskie Symposium in 1986; "Quantifying the Success of Muskellunge Catch and Release Programs: A Summary of Cooperative Angler-Tagging Studies":
"Catch and release fishing for muskellunge is one direct method by which anglers can contribute to the future of quality of their fishing experience and enhance the survival of these trophy fish. Muskellunge fishing-club members from seven states participated in tagging studies in an effort to quantify survival of angler-caught and released muskellunge. Data from over 1,600 fish tagged and released since 1976 were examined for this summary. Approximately 17% of these angler-tagged muskellunge were recaptured by anglers. Recapture rates for 578 muskellunge caught, tagged and released by 16 experienced anglers ranged from 22% - 44%, and averaged 28%. These rates equal, or exceed, most muskellunge-explotation estimates reported by fisheries angencies, which indicates excellent survival and tag retention for the fish handled by these anglers. In the future, more extensive tagging studies on fewer bodies of water may provide even more useful information on the positive effects of muskellunge catch and release fishing."
Please note that this paper was presented in 1986, and now as then, is would be improper to think that all released muskies that do survive are recaptured or reported if indeed they were. Release handling techniques and education has come a LONG way in the ensuing 18 years since this paper was submitted, however this is being offset by the influx of "new" muskie fishers joining our ranks. We need to continue the release education process and the need for minimal handling and the folly of taking multiple photo's or photo's of endless numbers of smaller fish. I think with the information provided by Rod, we will all now know when we are doing something that may adversely affect the fish we are going to release and hopefully we will strive to handle them more carefully and minimally.
Muskie regards,
Larry Ramsell
www.larryramsell.com | |
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Posts: 1937
Location: Black Creek, WI | Well said Larry.
My only "beef" with the article was the repeated reference to EGO.... which I presume was the intentional "shock" tactic used to get everyone's attention. As we all know... controversy sells and I suppose that EA needs to sell some magazines.... but I would have liked to have seen this article remain purely technical and let Pete Maina write about the "controversial" stuff in his "Release 'em Right" column.
We need guys like Rod to share knowledge and provide the tools (facts) needed help better educate anglers. Thus, I loved the article. However, putting an elitist flavor into suggested release techniques can be risky business for our sport when targeting newcomers.... since it could potentially scare them away. Perhaps that article should have been targeting the seasoned musky veterans who have caught hundreds if not thousands of fish?? Well... at least the EGO comments anyway???
jlong
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| I'm not sure why I feel the need to post since my feelings on this have already been expressed by jlong (dead-on) and michael (to a certain extent, in his last and longest post).
I especially agree with jlong on this point: that all the ego talk was put in for intentional shock value. You know, "To rile us up and make us think." It worked perfectly! I don't really like the means, but all this thought and discussion is certainly a positive end.
That said, I think the article was oxymoronic. I mean, outdoor writers and DNR field employees will be the last people to stop handling muskies. The good ones know how to accomplish their goals via the least damaging means, but an outdoor writer needs pictures (or at least to catch fish, presumably many more than most weekend anglers) and the DNR needs to handle fish to do its work. I know that some EA writers don't take many fish pictures (think of how many different pictures you've seen of Rob Kimm, Dick Pearson, or Jack Burns with fish ... not many) but they're the exception and no doubt still kill more fish by fighting them than most of us do by fighting and handling them. Those guys simply catch more fish than most of us, and I understand that a certain % of fish caught die no matter what.
Further, the phrase "ego picture" is way too presumptive. I firmly believe there is nothing negative or egotistical with memorializing a special event with a picture, whether that event is your wedding or a 50" release. I acknowledge the fact that that belief is debatable if you really want it to be. The issue that I find unsettling is this: Rod says something like, "If you must have that ego picture, take it of the fish in the water." (I'm paraphrasing here because I don't have the article with me.) Is taking a picture of the fish in the water egotistical? What if you don't show it to anyone -- what if it's just for you? In any case, I think Rod is using the word "ego" pretty loosely, whether he means to or not.
Before I conclude, I want to say that there's a lot of jerks out that that won't believe you've caught a fish until you show them a picture. Then there's the guys that when you do show it to them will accuse you of lying about the size or mishandling the fish, etc., etc. A lot of the time it's the same guy that does both. I personally think things like the Muskies, Inc. release contest spur that kind of crap on. But a lot of it is simply because of all the Wonderful gentlemans out there. I used to have a small but fairly successful bait company, and I'll tell you with 100% honesty that I've enjoyed muskie fishing a lot more since I got out of the "muskie industry" and bascally started keeping to myself and those I fish with. That's just me.
While it has been a couple of years, and I doubt he'd remember me, I have met Rod a few times and had a couple of good conversations with him. I wholly respect his knowledge of and commitment to muskies. I know he wouldn't write something he didn't believe. And from what I can tell, nobody is debating the accuracy of his statements. If, instead of writing about an ego picture he had simply said something like, "The best thing for a muskie is an in-the-water release shot," I doubt this discussion would be more then a few posts long.
John Nesse
[email protected]
St. Paul, MN | |
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Rod Ramsell's Esox Angler Article