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| Just curious if people who fish tournaments feel it is ethical/professional to use binoculars to view what others are using and catching fish on. This could be during prefishing or during the tournaments. I personally think it crosses the line. |
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Posts: 136
| Baldy,
Were you at the PMTT Shelbyville? Didn't need binoculars we were all next to each other! I wish the 2nd place team would have won they were elsewhere. If I EVER go back to that lake I WILL not fish Lithia I don't care how many fish are caught.
I saw alot of guys doing this with binoculars. Not for me. I'll stick with me own ineptness. |
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Posts: 364
Location: in the white boat | Funny you should mention this. Although it doesn't apply to muskie fishing, I couldn't believe how many boats pulled right up on top of my brother and I and our group last weekend while we were chasing walleyes in SoDak! Seems within minutes of somebody boating a fish another one or two would be within 50 yds of us. They had to be using binocs.
Who needs a Lowrance when a good set of Bushnells works just as well? |
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| is it unethical to use a sounder/GPS with the lake map and fishing spot waypoints saved in it to find that mid-lake hump easier/faster?
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| No I think it is within fairness and is ethical. Sounds pretty sneaky to me but I can tell you I'm frequently looking over at nearby boats to see what they're throwin'. Learning from others is all part of it. Observing others while fishing can give you some good ideas--whether it be lure selections, spots, presentations, or whatever--it jogs your memory. Competition is competition! |
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Posts: 1335
Location: Chicago, Beverly | I have never bothered to look at what lures they are using, just trying to get an idea of what they actually caught(size basically). I catch fish on stuff others don't use, and others catch fish on stuff I don't use. If no binocs would you rather have me pull up on top of you with the outboard running so I could take a look at your fish? I use my binocs tourney or not.. |
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Posts: 5230
| No I do not think so and i fish many tournaments.I tell you what bothers me is when a team throws an anchor on a good fish spot so none else can fish it.I am not talking about high winds or trolling motor troubles either.Just plain bottom line class-less.0723 |
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Posts: 20
Location: princeton,mn. | Boats on top of each other? Sounds like a great time ! |
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Posts: 3926
| I woudn't do it. |
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| A range finder, can of lighter fluid,book of matches, 5lb. sack of taters, and a 3' section of capped PVC tube...start humming "Joy To The World" and strike match...SHOULD clear you some castin' room REAL fast!  |
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| Thick Shady,
I was at Shelbyville and heard that people were doing this. I agree, I wish the second place team would have won, because I know they were doing something different without checking what others were using. Of course when boats are stacked in a haven such as Lithia, people are going to see what others are using and catching fish on and people are going to switch up baits. I just don't feel it holds the same weight as spotting people with binoculars. |
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Posts: 2515
Location: Waukesha & Land O Lakes, WI | I'm so busy concentrating on what I should be doing and watching for follows that I dont care about what others are doing. I have confidence in my ability, baits and partner....I dont have confidence in what others are throwing or positioned...who says what they're doing is any better than us?
My question is why would Musky tourny anglers use binocs to begin with??
1) You can already see where they are..so using binocs for position or location isnt realyl going to help you.
2) If you're looking for bait/colors it does'nt matter because they may be working them differnet
3) Your wasting time and casts.
The only way I'd use them is if there was some "scenery" to be viewed laying out on Daddy/Hubby's pier!
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Posts: 32958
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Many Tournamant Circuits ban binoculars in the boat during competition. Cell phones, too. |
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| When I fish with Kevin, I just ask him to remove his shirt. This prevents any oogloers from putting the binocs on us and keeps away the flies and skeeters.
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Posts: 2427
Location: Ft. Wayne Indiana | I don't have a problem with using binoculars at all during a tourney.
Also if you think Steve R. won the Shelbyville PMTT because he was using binoculares, that is just crazy. He knows that water better than anybody else. You would think that would be known as he won the PMTT there last year and this year. He didn't win because of binoculars.
Who cares if somebody uses binoculars?? Steve didn't change baits, speed or location for 2 days. He didn't care what other people were using. Just curious that's all.
Steve is a #*^@ good fisherman, give him credit, don't discredit him because his kicked everybodies butt!
I am happy that Steve won, he sure kicked me and Tony's butt. He knows what to do, how to do it, and where to do it on that lake. He doesn't need to "spy" like you think he is doing.
Instead of sitting here assuming, why not contact him instead. He will tell you what the purpose of the binoculars are.
Good job Steve at Shelbyville! You sure did prove that you know that water!!
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Posts: 1137
Location: Holly, MI | I agree with the "let 'em use 'em" theory. I like seeing what is going on around me too. I can enjoy somones elses success. Makes me fish more seriously if I think they are turning on. Who doesn't like to look at a nice Muskie.
Is it cheating when you set yourself up in the woods early so the other blokes blundering thru will send a deer your way? no way.
If your fishing partner is having success on a bait is it ok to put one on like yourself? you bet.
Most of the time (without a million $ pair of image stabilizing binos) you can't see much anyway, at least on the big water I fish. |
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Posts: 1335
Location: Chicago, Beverly | Hey Garman, I know who you are...lol.. I'll remember that remark... and will say that the blinding light reflecting off my untanned white belly does prevent people with binocs from seeing what we are using... |
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| Kudos to Steve AND Duane.
Just questioning where the binocular tactic fits in, especially if someone knows the water so well. Just looking for opinions. I would be naive if I thought people don't look at what others are using and adjust. Plus you still have to put fish in the boat PERIOD.
If it ain't in the rules, I guess it means it is ok. However, personally don't agree with it and think its unecessary. Would any winners of an event like if other boats had binoculars on them? |
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Posts: 925
| Hulbert:
I agree with you defending the champs, but nobody attacked them. So I am not sure why you found such a desire to defend them, it wasn't only them using binocs.
I saw NUMEROUS boats using binocs on Shelby. I don't care.
Personally, I wouldn't use them, because I don't care what other people are using. It may be nice to see the size of the fish, but not baits.
You have to have confidence in your own abilities, who cares what everyone else is doing.
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Posts: 2515
Location: Waukesha & Land O Lakes, WI | Absolutely MM.......It's the Professional Musky Tournament Trail not the "Watch Somebody Fish and You Copy Them Tournament Trail"
Everybody out there should be using baits, knowledge and luck. If you have to resort to "spying" on others to see what they're using...you're no longer a Pro, you're no better than the guys who follow guides around lakes for spots. |
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| You guys are nuts. If it's not banned by the tourney rules, then it's legit and ethical. It's a competition where you should be using every advantage that you can that is within the rules.
That said, I think binocs should be banned from tourny's, but if they aren't, go ahead and use 'em if you want to - just don't run into me while you're staring at some guy across the water.
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Posts: 2378
| Who is this other Baldy? Not me. I have never been to Shelbyville.
I agree with Twitcher. Let em use binocs. Just because you have the bait and the spot does not guarantee you a fish. |
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| I would disagree with "twitcher". Yes it's not bannded,but ethical???? Come on! They call themselfs "Pro's". This is the best game plan that they can come upwith? Look to see what someone else is doing or watching where a gudge boat runs off to and then go copy someone else who payed there dues. |
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Posts: 149
| I guess it comes down to how ethics are defined and that was not posed in the original question.
I believe that JUDGE boat chasing is against the rules in the PMT (I may be wrong). The tourney name uses the term Professional. While the majority of the participants do make a portion or all of their living off the sport, there are still participants who were able to round up 450 greenies and a boat. There are no quaulifiers for the events - most anyone can enter. The term, in this context, is more related to the money involved and not necessarily the caliber / quality of the participants.
From what I have read, most don't think it should be allowed, it takes away from the spirit of fishing to some degree - but this isn't just fishing, it's big money competition so the perspective and approach will be different.
Should all participants be sequestered between days? Gregg Thomas got a tip between day one and day two that helped him put himself on the board. Was that cheating? No. Sharing & gathering of information is part of the competition.
I wasn't at Shelbyville this year. Were any of the people who placed, guilty of glassin' others?
Perhaps the PMT should openly address this issue.
Edited by twitcher 5/20/2004 1:03 PM
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Posts: 259
Location: Alexandria, MN | I don't fish the PMTT, but would assume most of the teams that do, don't need to
copy others! If you are able to boat more fish, fishing in the same area as
everyone else, than way to go!
I know what my binoculars are used for, finding the seagulls and any surface
activity that would tell me where the baitfish are. If you are looking to troll or
cast in open water, baitfish are your 'structure'.
Just one guys opinion.
Steve |
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Posts: 925
| There are no rules against using, so go ahead.
All I am saying is that I don't see a need to do it.
The only reason I may have binocs in my boat at Eagle River, is to spy on chicks in bikinis on the local docks or in boats that pass by
Edited by MuskyMidget 5/20/2004 1:50 PM
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Posts: 2378
| Muskies?...Bikinis?...Muskies?...Bikinis?...
Thats a tough call. |
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Posts: 57
Location: Racine WI | But I've never liked tournament fishing of any sort. It shifts the focus of fishing to competition with other anglers. The essence of fishing to me is that it's non-competitive and, ideally cooperative with other fishermen. I like to think of myself and other fishermen "competing" against the fish, the water, the situation -- and competing isn't quite the word, since CPR (or keeping abundant species within their carrying capacity) lets me win without anything losing. It's why I fish, but don't hunt. (Well, I'm a crappy shot, too.) But I like paintball.
If I were to enter a tournament, I'd be in it to win it: anything the law allows. I hate a "friendly game of cards." You play poker, schafskopf, pinochle to WIN. You don't cheat -- no stacked or marked deck, etc. -- but you read the other guy's tells, you try to mislead with your own body language. People sitting around drinking, snacking, and occasionally throwing out a card is NOT card-playing. Fishing is a whole different breed of cat to me, and I stay as far from tournaments as I can. But if I entered one, binocs? Absolutely. That's why I don't and won't enter.
PS I didn't / wouldn't snag salmon when the WDNR said it was legal and appropriate harvest technique, and wrote letters and called people, putting pressure to get the law changed. Tournament fishing feels the same as snagging to me. OK, guys, tear into me. |
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Posts: 2691
Location: Pewaukee, Wisconsin | I asked Steve R. if he had tunnel vision after the tournament was over. He was always looking through them.
I think they were just checking out other boats, what they were catching and running for baits. Not to copy them but just checking out the compitition.
I can tell you one thing, when they checked their lines plenty of other boats were glassing them. I would watch all the boats as they checked their lines, plenty of rubbernecking going on.
We ran what we planned and what we caught fish on prefishing. One of the baits was a Derth Raider exactly like they were running. We changed up our speed from 3 up to 5 mph throughout the day. They scored around 4.3 I believe. They scored and we didn't. Thats fishing, my hat it off to them for getting the fish they did.
As far as ethics, if you have to copy someone your out of you game plan. The teams that do that are just want a be's and it will catch up with them somewhere down the line.
If you check out what someone caught a fish on that just smart fishing.
Fishing is part luck and plenty of knowhow. Sometimes you need some luck. I watched 23 fish get caught on 7 or 8 different baits, 10 were on the 2 baits we had out from the start of the tournament. I switched to a large Depth Raider as our speed increased, thats the only time I switched baits all day.
If you use them and its legal, who cares. My partner likes to look, I don't care. When its tournament time I already have a game plan and I stick to it unless weather, wind or someting else changes my mind.
Fishing parking lots, bar room talk or rumers can get you skunked. I like to have a game plan and stick to it. Shelbyville we died on it.
Congrats to those who caught fish !!! |
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Posts: 136
| Sucked in again.
Can't believe I'm this dumb.
MY BBBBBBBBBBBBAAAAAAAAAAAAAANNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNDDDDDDDDDD!!!!
Edited by Thick Shady 5/20/2004 3:21 PM
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Posts: 136
| My Salsa. |
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Posts: 2427
Location: Ft. Wayne Indiana | END UP WITH 2 BACK HANDS |
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Posts: 114
Location: Tomahawk, Wi | I'm bitting my tongue ! On this one......  |
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| There goes another lawsuit......... |
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Posts: 1335
Location: Chicago, Beverly | Oh...this was the boat with Duane Landemier? Yeah, i've been in tourney's against him before on shelby... DEAD POSITIVE they didn't need the binocs to win... Duane has won the Directors DNR Musky Tourney there at least once but I am thinking more then once, can't remember for sure... He really seems to know his way around that lake.. |
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Posts: 2089
| Practice makes perfect.No,PERFECT PRACTICE makes perfect.And that's all I've got to say about that(Said like Forrest Gump). Steve |
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Posts: 32958
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | I would like to see no cell phones, no binocualrs, and radios on an official channel only. Several reasons for this, not the least of which the rules would help eliminate charges of tailpiping and will keep the teams out there on the pattern they worked to establish. |
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| so somebody goes out and wins a tournament...using any tools available to them within the rules...
some who didn't win said tournament say, "it might be 'within the rules' but isn't it really cheating?"
yup.
and those grapes were probably sour anyway.
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| Using all (and I meen allllll) the tools casting, trolling, GPS, cell phone, depthfinder, binoks, line counters, exct. is the key to being on top of fish all the time. If your not you are not using all you resources. Information is the key and we are in the information world. Is monitoring this site cheating... we guess what it is just another good tool to keep you on the hot bite. I didn't catch over 160 fish last year because I didn't use this site and many tools. If you watch a Bass, Walleye, or even Crappie tournament you will see all these "tools" used and more. Sorry, but if you want u can go out with a cane pole, cotton line, no motor and no depthfinder but a stone and string and catch muskies... but I prefer to live in the modern age. Information is the key to success no matter what media you use to get it.
Good Hunting,
Steve |
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Posts: 114
Location: Tomahawk, Wi | Well Said! |
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Posts: 172
| Geez! I thought they were bird watching. Are you telling me they were watching me catch zip. Hope they learned something. Maybe that's how they won. They watch me and did the reverse. Really, do you think it matters. Give me a break. |
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Posts: 50
| These 2 fisherman did there home work on this lake, that is why they won not from watching others. I fished beside then for 2 days and only caught 1 32" fish I was using the same baits and trolling the same as they were and in the same location. I just didn't have it all together this time and most of us didn't. Steve @ Duane did a great job and are the true champions of this tournament .
fishhunter3
Larry Manning
PMTT # 14
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Posts: 5230
| I do not use a cell phone for the tournaments,but when I was having medical problems a few tourneys on the water I am glad I had a cell phone,so for safety i believe a cell phone cannot be taken away,especially since Tom stygar is a peramedic,on the PMTT Trail and can evulate your problem much faster with a cell phone. What do you guys think about the putting out an anchor so no else can fish a spot? I as most anglers have a HUGE problem with this.0723 Bill ramsey
Edited by 0723 5/22/2004 12:48 AM
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Posts: 32958
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Look at the Professional Walleye trail rules. This is the premier walleye circuit out there, refelcting rules that were designed to create an atmosphere where the Pro and his Amature compete on as level a playing field as is possible. The radio requirement on a specific channel is important, and answers the 'emergency' issue well. |
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| Probably one of the most idiotic posts ever on this board, so, naturally I need to put my opinions in.
If you choose to fish tournaments where money and prestige are the objects being awarded the winner, please, expect the contestants to use EVERY method and avenue for success as long as it is not specifically against the rules. To expect otherwise is to be both naive and ignorant of how these things are done. If you don't like something, whine and complain to the director and hope it gets changed before the next contest, but don't blame someone else for trying to win a contest.
Lets get real. If I was going into a contest like Shelbyville evidently is, I would try and get a GPS run of 50 to 60 trolling muskies in Lithia springs built up, and then I would go from mark to mark on my trolling run and cover every structural and cover situation that might hold a fish. If I felt someone else had this information, and I didn't, I would try and exactly copy their trolling route. Think successful trolling is just luck?
If you are coming into a lake cold turkey and pre fishing 2-3 days, you MIGHT find 1/3 of the spots and 5-6 baits and presentation that are above average. Be aware though that some of these guys are networking with area pros, or amateurs not in the tourney, that are giving up precise locations and precise presentations. think they might have an advantage over you?
Remember just one fish per tourney can leave you sitting great at the end of the year in this thing...
Somebody wants to sit on a good spot? Gives up finding active fish elsewhere in the hopes that 2-3 active fish will show during the tourney. Might win it all that way. Also if it is a well known spot, their fish may be removed before they get to fish in the morning or after they leave at night. Also fish in well known spots tend to be bait and boat shy at times. Same strategy open to you, why get mad that someone uses it, if you think it is that good of a strategy use it yourself.
If you are fishing with partner and are basically lone rangers out there...tough luck. Teams network with telephones or radio. Here is a situation. Team A has one, or two, good fish already and are in contention for winning if they can pick up another fish of any size. Team C has no fish and seem headed into oblivion toward the end of the tourney. Now Team C raises a hot fish of small to medium size. Will not put them in the cash even if they catch it, but...if team A were to catch it, might be worth $10,000 to them. Now my question is, do you think team A and team C might be able to make a deal?(If you answer no to this question please reference the term "Pollyana" in your Disney dictionary!!)
So, that's the way it is in tourney fishing. The successful pioneers in tourneys are often the ones that cause rules to be made. They find a way no one else had thought of, and are not shy about using it to put dollars in their pocket. Do you guys remember the deal where Roland Martin got hold of a jet boat to go up river in some bass tournament and ended up fishing someplace no one else could even reach and thus winning the tournament? Now half the guys were mad about it and thought Roland in effect cheated, but the real pros were thinking, "#*^@, that Roland is a smart SOB! Wish Ida thought of that!!". |
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| The only time it's a problem with someone camping on a spot is if it prevents others from gaining access to other water beyond where the TeamRV is anchored up. |
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Posts: 5230
| I was in no way mad that team anchored,I iust think it is very unprofessional.By all means other teams could do this but in my humble opinon chose to have to much class and ethics to do this.When a team did this a few years ago I never seen that team the whole tournament,I thought it was rotten for the other teans that wanted to fish the spot who chose not to race and anchor there at 7am.0723 bill ramsey
Edited by 0723 5/22/2004 10:26 AM
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Posts: 1996
Location: Pelican Lake/Three Lakes Chain | I'm really confused over this whole post.
When did watching what others do become unethical?
What makes an anchor classless?
Neither one of these scenarios affects your boat and fishing success one iota. If you want to win the tourney don't worry so much what others are doing and go out and catch a fish!!!
I really enjoy fishing musky tournaments myself, but am becoming concerned with some of the tourney attitudes I am seeing pop up. I think they might make the whole group of us look like a bunch of elitist @sses. |
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Tourney Ethics