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Posts: 1996
Location: Pelican Lake/Three Lakes Chain | Is there an established list of which tourneys will be included in the Musky Rankings yet? Just curious if I am fishing in any of them. |
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Posts: 2691
Location: Pewaukee, Wisconsin | That would be nice to know so tournys could be planned in advance. |
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Posts: 7091
Location: Northwest Chicago Burbs | As far as I know.....and trust me, the board moderation, running matchfishing, helping with the PMTT Fantasy, covering tourneys coming up all this keeps me busy enough.....being that I am not really "IN" on figuring the WMR.....the PMTT, the Fox River Valley Muskie Club tourney circuit on the Fox Chain in IL, and the Minnesota Muskie Tourneys run by Steve Cady, will all be figured into the calculations. BUT, that is IN NO WAY a complete listing of the tourneys that will or will not be included in the calculations.
This is another reason to fish the FRV Tourney...... |
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Posts: 32935
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | The tournaments we are scoring so far are the PMTT, Rollie and Helens, The FRV events, Mr. Cady's events, and Paul Hartman's events. |
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Posts: 5874
| What about the WMT? Established tourney, with quite a few events.
Edited by Shep 4/13/2004 7:55 PM
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Location: Pewaukee, WI | if it is not it would only take away from the validity of the rankings...........
one of the largest organized musky tourny's not included..........???????????
would only mean this is self serving to a few |
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Posts: 736
Location: Hartford, WI | So what your saying is that a tourny that is Legally run does not qualify?? So now what your saying, is that your moral belief, which can differ from others are right? Sorry but if your going to do this you need to add all major tournies that are run in legal ways. Otherwise its a total usless and invalid Ranking.
Jim
Edited by Jim K 4/13/2004 9:20 PM
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Posts: 32935
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | I listed what tournaments we have the data from and can score at this point. The WMR will be clearly defined as they are released.
There will be events we do not score that do not meet minimum WMR standards or are not capable or willing to supply the necessary data. As with the World Walleye Rankings, we will rank events that meet industry standards of excellence.
As an example, the World Walleye Rankings rank only professional events that meet a very defined set of guidelines. The World Team Walleye Rankings will follow very similar guidelines.
To list a fair comparison, look at the PGA. There are tournaments that attract a significant field that are not ranked or carry a lower value in the PGA rankings. The standards set by the PGA for an event to 'count' are not indiscriminatley set, nor will the standards for the WMR. There are many more considerations than what meets the immediate eye, so like it or not, some events may not qualify. I am certain that some Club Pros out there are perfectly capable of competing in the PGA, but unless they actually do, they cannot be by definition a Ranked Pro. In order to carry a WMR ranking, a Team must compete in a minimum number of WMR events over a 24 month period.
By the way, no one has yet announced the complete WMR database. A fair amount of responsibility falls upon the event managers to be able to provide complete data for the MuskieFIRST Leaderboard and the WMR on a timely basis, as the World Muskie Ranking is 100% dynamic, an extension of our original multi-species leaderboard technology. Be patient, when the database is complete and the necessary arrangements set with the events out there, the WMR will be released. We are confident you will find them accurate, relevant, and a true reflection of any one Team's standings at any one point in time.
For an example of the complete system at work, please look to this link:
http://walleye.outdoorsfirst.com/rankings.asp
Don't just glance at this and return to the MuskieFIRST discussion board, click on the Anglers stats, events, and graphs. You will get a better feel for how the system works very quickly. |
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Posts: 75
Location: ft wayne, IN | I would have to agree w/ Jim--need to include the guys that can't make it on the tours and use other tourneys/matches/outing results as well. Also you might consider consulting w/ the MI chapters and MF board to see who they might reccomend from their chapter/group in consideration of these rankings and develop criteria as such and some type of a point system so that more guys can be involved in these "rankings" which are of course at best artificial.
JK |
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Posts: 32935
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | The WMR is not intended to list the top muskie angler of all time, nor the 'best' in any one organization or group by vote, opinion, or ideal.
The WMR will be a snapshot of the current standings at any one time for the ranked events based on a running 24 month period of time. Please look at the WWR link to see the system at work in the competitive Walleye world. The system is not a simple average of scoring or a compilation of fish caught by individuals, it is a complicated formula designed to reflect the actual competitive position of any Muskie Team against their peers at any one time.
The WMR will be no more artificial than the PGA, NASCAR, or other legitimate sports ranking systems. The WMR have been in the planning and deveolpment stages since 1998, so a considerable amount of thought has gone into the system. We welcome questions, and will answer all clearly and as quickly as possible.
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Posts: 32935
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Jim K, could you clarify your question? I am not at all certain what you are asking.
Thanks! |
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Posts: 3913
| Why in the world should M1 step forward to be held responsible for accurating scoring of such a thing? Let others argue with others, and such a topic surely invities many pointless arguments. We'll just share info, jokes, our personal problems, etc. |
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Posts: 736
Location: Hartford, WI | Steve. I told slamr after he after he yanked one post before mine, that mine would look out of place. lol I will email you sir.
Jim |
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Posts: 355
Location: Wausau, Wisconsin | I'm just curious why the Wisconsin Musky Tour isn't being spoken about. They have paid out more than the PMTT. Over $675,000 next year alone? With the position my co-guides are in I know this sounds a little partial but I just think that McInniss' efforts credit the highest in recognition. |
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Posts: 2515
Location: Waukesha & Land O Lakes, WI | Huh? Where's the WMT?
"The WMT had a great season in 2003, with more than 800 anglers partaking in the circuit that handed out more than a quarter of a million dollars in cash and prizes. With the additions the WMT has made for the 2004 season, more than $675,000 in cash and prizes will be offered throughout the cicuit next year. While at the Championship, it will be possible for one team to win over $140,000 in cash and prizes with more than a total of $175,000 in cash and prizes offered at the Invitational Championship. "
The WMT has 14 events including a Championship.....You can take all the events that the PMTT and R&H's has and still only have half of the WMT's. because an angler can come up with the higher entry fees for these tournys does'nt mean they're good anglers.
If the Minnesota Musky trail is part of the Rankings, why not the WMT?
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Posts: 2515
Location: Waukesha & Land O Lakes, WI | So because you dont agree with a tourny format or with TM's politic's, that trail should'nt be included? It's still a fishing contest with the best anglers taking top gun! 800 guys/gals are competing.
If money is'nt an issue, why is Rollie and Hellen's tournys included? There's only a couple of them on the same body of water! |
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Posts: 156
Location: Oconomowoc, WI | To not include the WMT is ridiculous!
Also, after a successful first event late last fall, there will be another tournament circuit for 2004. The Ironman Musky Tournament Trail will feature 4 tournaments this year in SouthEastern Wisconsin.
More details coming soon.... |
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Posts: 32935
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | If one is going to argue about the tournaments included in the rankings, one should probably should know which will be included and which will not. That information has not yet been made available.
I clearly stated the events we had data from and those that have agreed to date to provide the necessary reporting functions, and nothing more. The arguments here for or against any event being scored are based on assumptions.
As I stated in a previous post:
'By the way, no one has yet announced the complete WMR database. A fair amount of responsibility falls upon the event managers to be able to provide complete data for the MuskieFIRST Leaderboard and the WMR on a timely basis, as the World Muskie Ranking is 100% dynamic, an extension of our original multi-species leaderboard technology. Be patient, when the database is complete and the necessary arrangements set with the events out there, the WMR will be released. We are confident you will find them accurate, relevant, and a true reflection of any one Team's standings at any one point in time.'
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Posts: 429
| No one has ever mentioned which tournies/circuits will or won't count toward the ranking system, we are in the process of making those determinations now.
Zach |
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Posts: 5874
| I wasn't trying to stir the pot here, when I asked about the WMT. I was merely responding to Slamr's post . I reread his, and see where he said that those mentioned were not the complete listing of included tourneys.
So, anyway, is the WMT going to be included? LOL
Edited by Shep 4/18/2004 6:38 AM
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Posts: 32935
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Hey Shep.
As I said, a fair amount of responsibility falls upon the event manager to get us the fields of contestants, results, and other news on a timely basis. There are other requirements as well, the 'industry standards' I mentioned earlier.
We will be finishing up with our communication with the Tournaments soon. |
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Posts: 929
Location: Rhinelander. | As with anything you
you have to have rules
and guidelines. If
something like this
does not make tournaments meet
certain requirements
what validity would
the rankings have.
You can't count every
clubs outings or some
cub function into this.
It is strict requirements
that tournaments
will be held to
that will give this
meaning.
Don pfeiffer
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Posts: 714
Location: Rhinelander, WI | I will take a chance here and read between the lines and say, “those of you who want the WMT events to count towards the WMR should talk to T.M. and make sure the events meet all the criteria set forth by the ranking system.” My guess is it would be as simple as that. Also I find it highly unlikely that the ranking system was set up to specifically exclude specific events.
Nail A Pig!
Mike |
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Posts: 2691
Location: Pewaukee, Wisconsin | Thats good reading between the lines.
Tom can make this happen if he wanted too. It would be lots of extra work for TM or someone else.
This is a big responsibility that needs to be kept up to date very quickly.
Will the WMT do this?
If so, I think they could get into this if they choose to follow the criteria set forth by the ranking system.
They could choose to do nothing and whine about it all season. That would be the lazy way to approach it.
If people want it to happen, they should push TM to get it done.
I would love to see it open to lots of tournys. |
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Posts: 5874
| I haven't heard any whining from the WMT. I was merely inquiring if the WMT was to be part of this ranking. Seeing as how there are more WMT tourneys in the past two years, than any of the other tours or series, I just figured that would add some good data.
Man, I must be having a bad day. Arguing with everybody today. Even got mikie mad at me, and I figure that's hard to do! |
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| I kind of chuckle when I mentioned the post to a walleye tournament angler I know and he mentioned in the end we agreed as tournament anglers we want money not our name on a website. While I think it is great that this happening, the importance of this should be in the hands of those who would otherwise make the list. (not me) |
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Posts: 32935
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | The WMR will not just consist of a 'name on a website'. That much I can promise. |
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| Mr. Worrall,
I was not trying to belittle you efforts or the idea. I can't imagine the amount of time it will take to maintain this. Creating a "champ" of the industry is beneficial all around. Especially from a fincial standpoint. I am well aware of how it would help Hooksetters Fishing Services if Phil Schweik or Pete Hilman were #1. All I am saying is that is more important to some than others. I am in tournaments because I enjoy time with my friends and how much I improve as an angler with each event. The challenge of winning thousands of dollars is nice, but reguardless of what people think of me, how I place or how much money I win, nothing outside of myself will get to my personal enjoyment in the sport. Doc Sampson and Tom Keenan are the top money winners in walleye tournaments. Each of these men have done it in many less tournaments than Parsons or Keith. Yet, look at the rankings. I don't think that how many tournaments won or prize money won will ever live up to the charater of the person or their contributions to the sport. |
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Posts: 32935
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Of course not, I didn't think you were. Just for information's sake, the comments you had about the World Walleye Rankings were common when we released them; allow me to expalin.
The Rankings do not indicate who is the top money winner or the 'best' in a historical sense. The WMR will be a snapshot of how any one team ranks against their peers using 24 month's data. As a team fishes a new event, the 'oldest' event is removed from the data base. Much like the PGA or like rankings systems, the idea is to indicate which team is number 1 through 200 based on the competition taking place in a rolling 24 month period. You are correct, Samson has won quite a few dollars over his career, but in the last 24 months he has had two wins, four money finishes, and TWELVE finishes out of the money. Compare those finishes using the graph provided to Keith Kavajecz's finishes, and it is easy to see why Bruce stands where he does in the current rankings, and conversely, why Keith is where he is.
Mr. Samson 'swings for the fence' quite a bit, and either hits the long ball, or strikes out. The expressed goal of tournament anglers is to finish in the money as often as possible, win as many as possible, and make the Championship. The same criteria used in the WWR will be used in the WMR.
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| Very fair, thank you. |
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| So when a tournament is over, it gets added to the Ranking database? |
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World RankingsTourneys