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| Hey all, I got into a heated argument with a guy who has a cabin on the same lake as I do. He was trying to tell me that the muskies in the lake are eating ALL the walleyes and that is the reason their numbers are down. I tried to tell him muskies do not prefer walleyes as forage, esp. with TONS of little perch in the lake, bluegills, crappies, suckers, etc etc...He was telling me he keeps/kills any musky he catches! I was pretty hot under the collar but would love to find an article that would support my argument to send to him.....any help would be appreciated! | |
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Posts: 1996
Location: Pelican Lake/Three Lakes Chain | Back about 5 years ago there was a study on the diets of muskies. The results were listed in MH magazine. The study involved the burping of a bunch of muskies to see what their diet consisted of, and if I remember correctly walleye consisted of less thatn 2% of the findings. I don't have my MH magazines in front of me now but I can take a look when I get home from work. | |
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| I'm not saying they don't eat them....but if muskies soley ate walleyes the best musky lakes in the country would not have any walleyes left, but that is not the case...some of the BEST musky lakes are also the BEST walleye lakes..that goes for WI, MN, and Canada, large and small bodies of water alike.
If their numbers on this lake were up 10 years ago, and muskies have not been stocked in 7 years, but walleyes have been over those years, the muskies are not the cause of the decline in walleyes. Especially with the relatively low numbers of muskies on this particular lake.
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Posts: 2515
Location: Waukesha & Land O Lakes, WI | Norm hit the nail on the head...I read the same article. I think it also mentioned something about how the color of the walleye pattern catches fish, not the fact that the bait looks like a walleye.
I just emailed the Wi DNR about this, hopefully I'll get a response before the opener! | |
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Posts: 633
| Check this out. It is an article written by a gentleman with the MN DNR on Muskie eating habbits. http://www.northmetromuskies.com/research.html .
Lance
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Posts: 1335
Location: Chicago, Beverly | Where I fish the Bass fisherman think the same thing. In their mind it was not the fact the almost every 5lbs fish caught was kept..or the fact the some weeks you could have up to 3 different bas tourney's on the lakes during the open season for almost 20 years straight now... Nope, it was the Musky that ruined the bass fishing on these lakes... No amount of talking by me seems to convince these guys differently sadly... About all I can say is the DNR's need to educate the people a little but better on this topic. | |
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Posts: 5200
| I do not know the numbers in a diet or the scientific explanations.All I can tell you is if I fish the reeds at night for muskie I usually will catch a walleye and alot of the times have muskie action.Which tells me walleye are feeding and in turn muskie are feeding on walleye.I believe muskie love to eat walleye which I think causes most walleye to relocate.How many times have you had a muskie rip hold of your walleye,granted you walleye fish?Do not always believe science or numbers,believe your experiences.0723  | |
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Posts: 2515
Location: Waukesha & Land O Lakes, WI | I got a very very quick response from the Wi DNR with a huge amount of info. This is page 13 of a 2003 Musky Management Study. I think it answers your question. I also got another PDF of a dietary study...I can email that to you as well.
Edited by Gander Mt Guide 3/23/2004 10:24 AM
Attachments
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 page 13.pdf (23KB - 297 downloads)
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Posts: 1335
Location: Chicago, Beverly | "Bass and walleye were relatively unimportant. Only 6 walleye (0.9% of the diet
items; 0.5% of muskellunge sampled) and 17 bass (2.9% of the diet items; 1.6% of muskellunge
sampled) were found in all the samples." I like that quote from the study... Like 723 says it doesn't mean they don't eat walleye, as I have heard of a decent amount of people having Musky hit a Walleye that was being reeled in. But the study shows that overall they are for the most part a smaller part of the Musky diet. Another thing that seems to get left out of these studies is the size of the fish Musky tend to eat. Your Trophy Bass and Walleye will almost never be in a Musky's diet, if it is I want to catch that fish.. What the Musky tends to eat is smaller stuff as evidenced by the size of our lures, sure, there are guys out there who use huge suckers and 15" lures to catch Musky, but a majority of what I see catching fish is 10" and under. | |
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Posts: 1996
Location: Pelican Lake/Three Lakes Chain | 0723, In my opinion, and diet studies support this, the walleye and muskies are in the same area both acting as predators on the same prey. They are both actively feeding on perch or some other prey item. I think the reason your hooked walleye gets attacked by a musky in the area is the erratic movement the walleye exudes fighting against your rod, not because it is a preferred food item. That is the same reason we try to make our retrieves with twitch baits and gliders as erratic as we can. It is a predators response to the erratic nature of the fish, not the food value that elicits the strike. | |
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Posts: 32954
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | I disagree, strongly. The studies undertaken to date show muskies plain do not eat many walleyes. The fact they are located in the same areas frequently may indicate that both are there because of their prey, which more times than not is perch.
A muskie taking a struggling walleye or bass on an angler's line (which I have had happen once in over 35 years of fishing) indicates a response to a stimulous, not a prey preference.
In most cases walleye populations are a direct reflection of successful spawning, stocking efforts, and angling pressure. Weak year classes occur because of poor weather or water levels during the spawn, poor survival after a stocking effort, or other variables not releated to predation from muskies. The theory that "The muskies are eating all the walleyes" I call:
WAVES ON THE WATER MAKE THE WIND BLOW
Go ahead, argue. Whenever there are big waves, there is big wind. Where there are no big waves, there is no big wind. Why does the wind blow out on open ground away from water? There are huge oceans on both sides of our country, with big waves pulling the wind to them. (Sound logical?)
Logical argument based on experience isn't always reliable without a good factual base, so in my very humble opinion, we need to listen to the folks who have the facts. | |
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Posts: 2691
Location: Pewaukee, Wisconsin | Very good point Norm.
I only see muskie action on walleyes when the fish(muskies/walleyes) are working the weed lines.
I think a muskie will eat a walleye if it is a easy target or acting different from what they are used too.
Pan fishermen will get bit off during this time slot (first two weeks of June) while catching gills. Plenty of muskie action on jerk baits and twitch baits. These baits work because they copy injured panfish/baitfish.
I think bass get eated far more than walleyes on Pewaukee Lake.
A 50-incher was killed last year by a local guide and it had a 19-inch Small Mouth in its stomach. Thats a big bass.
Muskies will eat whatever is in their zone when they are hungry, bottom line.
If it moves it must be food. | |
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Posts: 2691
Location: Pewaukee, Wisconsin | The Pewaukee muskie study showed that walleyes were only about 2 to 3% of the total.
Bullheads came up the most with the highest %.
This was done in the Spring so muskies were shallow and bullheads were easy targets.
I don't think muskies target walleyes.
Perch was listed down a ways.
Sheephead, carp, shiners, suckers, bluegills and crappies were some of the others listed ahead of the walleyes.
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Posts: 358
| I am not sure if we/most of us are talking about the same study here, but it was conducted on lakes in northern WI, and I believe parts of MN. I read this study a few years back, and it was very interesting.
Muskies do not prefer Walleyes over other available prey in a lake or river system. Will they eat them if conditions are right? In a heart beat they will, but the underlying fact here is that a muskie wont go out of its way just to find a walleye fish fry some where in the lake. The prefered meal of choice is a Yellow Perch. Ironically enough, the prefered meal of a Walleye is also a Yellow Perch. More often than not, that is probably the reason that walleye anglers hook into a musky every now and then, becaue the muskies are in the same area along with the walleyes searching for a meal.
In most cases, the reasons for the decline of any species in a musky lake has more to do with the environment, angling presuure, spawning habitat, etc. I had an old timer up north tell me that he didnt understand all the fuss over the lake Michigan perch populations a few years back. When I asked him what he meant by that, he told me, as long as he has fished for perch on Lake Michigan (which I gathered was equal to my own age + 15 yrs) he had seen this happen before. A few years of small catches, but then followed up by a lot of years with good catches of fish.
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| Thanks for the article threads and info...this is just what I need to print and send to the guy on my lake...he seemed intelligent enough to grasp what I was telling him, he just wanted proof..I think I have it! He wasn't an "old timer" either, so hopefully I can bend his thinking and maybe put this info up at the bar on the lake for other "musky haters" to read!
Thanks, keep the replies/info coming! | |
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Posts: 5200
| I would tend to think than that a sucker would be a huge portion of a muskies diet since we all know how much musky love suckers,but acording to these studies muskie do not like to eat suckers.Now you tell me muskie do not like suckers?But muskie studies tells us different.I also know muskie love smallmouth but I will not explain to you how I know that.So to me these numbers are meaningless,maybe bass and walleye have better instincts for preadators than a shad or crayfish. Did you ever think that these panfish/ baitfish are much more abundant for any predator to eat.Please most of you are way to smart to believe a musky do not like walleye,they would be a huge portion of a muskies diet,and would eat them in a second if the numbers were there.When it comes to telling the bass angler/walleye/crappie angler that muskie are not eating their fish I tell them the same percentages you do.Do I buy it no.To many LAKES and RIVERS baitfisherman can not catch their fish,musky have and effect by fear or eating those poor defenseless not fighting walleye.0723
Edited by 0723 3/23/2004 3:41 PM
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Posts: 28
Location: SOUTHERN..MN | walleyes were put on earth for one reason only! as a source of PROTEIN! for humans and
muskies alike!
ALAN
Edited by ALSOX 3/23/2004 3:36 PM
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Posts: 149
| Here's the link to the abstract of the Bozek / Burri study mentioned earlier which appeared in Musky Hunter Magazine a number of years ago. I have the table with all the data that appeared in MHM that I can email to you if you like.
Suckers make up nearly 50% of a muskies diet in northern Wisconsin. Perch are second on the list at 16 - 17%, various minnow species pooled together as one prey group are third and so on down the list to the species like walleye (about 3%) and bass (about 4%). Obviously a musky will attack a struggling fish of any species. This accounts for the hordes of panfish anglers, walleye anglers, and bass anglers that have a musky attack a fish they are bringing in. That in now way whatsoever means that those species are preferred by muskies or even common components of their diet. All it means is that muskies are opportunistic feeders and when presented with an "easy" meal they take it. It also explains why muskies attack any number of baits that don't even remotely look like another fish or animal.
http://afs.allenpress.com/afsonline/?request=get-abstract&issn=0275...
Edited by esoxcpr 3/23/2004 5:13 PM
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Posts: 32954
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Suckers are not a big portion of the Muskie's diet in the normal environment for a couple reasons; availability (numbers), and location. They do provide a percentage of the Muskie's forage if available in good numbers in the system, but are not by any means the top stomach content in studies done, even in waters where there are plenty of the around. Fishing with a sucker on a quick strike up in the strike zone of the muskie instead of on the bottom where the sucker would reside has alot to do with the fact muskies hit them well. There is no other readily available 'baitfish' of that size in the region where it is popular to use suckers as bait, plus their toughness and stature among the rest of the fishes as a 'junk fish' make suckers perfect bait.
Muskies are top predators and will utilize whatever the system has to offer. Fact is, though, if the lake supports a good population of walleyes, it is likely the muskies and walleyes will prey upon the same schooled numbers type of fish; most of the time perch. Bluegills and crappies are also prey when small, but not when the get larger for obvious reasons. Pike are far better at controlling panfish populations than are muskies, again because of numbers.
What is happening here is anthropomorphism. Muskies do not 'love' any particular food or prey, even suckers. They simply eat what is available in numbers and proper size, which are for the most part panfish, bullheads, and small rough fish. They don't swim the system in search of an acquired taste for bass or walleye. It is simply availability in numbers/year classes/optimal size that draws the fish to a certain food source. Perch are WAY more abundant than are walleyes of the proper size, so that is the prey that catches the most mayhem from the muskies. Do muskies eat a few walleyes? Sure. Probably not NEAR as many as walleyes do though. Big 'eyes are not against eating little 'eyes, happens sometimes. I bet a few little muskies end up in the stomach of the occasional big walleye, too. If little walleyes are available in huge numbers because of an incredible year class, then the likelihood one might end up in a Pike or Muskie are proportionate to availability.
My son works for the DNR, and is always interested in hearing about how the muskies ate all the walleyes after he has worked with a fyke net survey team and captured unbelievable numbers/year classes of walleyes. Usually what happened to change the fishing was an introduction of an exotic like rusties, which changes the structure and relocates the walleyes,a change in the forage, or... you get the picture.
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| The study mentioned by lpeitso is published with all of the corresponding data in the April/May 2001 edition of Musky Hunter. I keep this handy, as I too have brought it up to support a "debate". I'll take it to work tomorrow, and if I can copy and scan it, I will send it through. Here is just one partial column which summarizes the detail by "relative importance". Out of a total of a 100 number value, here are the numbers, up to the walleye....Yellow Perch = 25.1, Sucker = 21.1, Unidentified fish = 13.4, Minnows = 6.6, Panfish = 6.5, Crappie = 6.4, Darter = 4.4, Bass = 3.3, Pike/Musky(esocidae) = 2.6, and FINALLY...Walleye = 1.8. There are other catergories below the walleye, but all are less and less significant.
This was the same study with 1,92 muskies tested from 1991-1994.
This just may help you | |
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Posts: 48
Location: Winnipeg | All I know is I have had musky hit on 2 walleyes last year when i was crankin for walleye. One didnt let go till i pulled the net out and she finally let go. So I personally have seen them chow on walleye. had to keep that 1 was badly cut up from the skis teeth! | |
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Posts: 1023
Location: Lafayette, IN | Keep in mind that a lot of complaining comes from the serious "non-musky" anglers who have had a musky take their struggling fish while bringing it to the boat. Did I say "struggling"? BINGO!
..."and work that bait with an erratic, twitching type manner to resemble a struggling, dying baitfish." | |
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| i fish alot of little lakes that has trout bluegills perch wallie an cats carp if the musky an pike,bass,cats an all meat eaters targed one group of fish they would be gone there are lot guys that think like that when fishing they cant get a bite or find the fish or its just bad summer for tha river lake dam thats | |
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Posts: 389
Location: Presque Isle Wisconsin | Any large predator in an eco-system will try to kill and eat the largest prey it feels it can take WITHOUT BEING INJURED IN THE PROCESS.This includes lions,tigers,eagles,owls,MUSKIES etc etc etc. Walleyes have teeth and are capaple of inflicting injury on a Muskie;therefore muskies prefer there prey without teeth if possible suckers,bass,perch,shad,ciscoes ect etc cant injure the Muskie and are therefore preferred.
It doesnt have anything to do with taste or any other dietary resaon.They simply try not to risk injury while taking in calories.The fact that a muskie will hit a walleye on an anglers line is due to the fact the walleye is emitting vibrations that connote an injured prey to a muskie. The old saw that northens and muskies hate each other is just another expample of this process :ie that the muskie will usually avoid trying to eat a northern and vice versa. Too much risk of injury.
There was an excellent paper done in the 1950s on this subject from a U of Michigan professor,which ,of course ,I now cant locate. When you think of it though it makes sense and fits into what we observe experentially on the water.Predator prey realtionships have been evolved over millions of years and this is one of the basic laws of the jungle. DONT GET INJURED.
A muskie would eat a walleye as soon as any other prey ,but it respects its teeth and nature has taught it too prefer other food sources. This fits in with stomach content studies ect. | |
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Posts: 1916
Location: Greenfield, WI | I wish that all you guys with actual facts would stay out of this discussion! How are we supposed to discuss anything and solve the world's problems, when actual facts get in the way?
How can we believe actual data to be true when there are all sorts of guys, at landings, in taverns, and relatives who must be correct?
Edited by Steve Van Lieshout 3/24/2004 9:48 AM
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Posts: 148
Location: DES MOINES, IOWA | I have seen a Northern being eaten on video by a large Musky, and the Northern didn,t have a chance.Side hit, squeeze with massive jaw pressure, oxygen bubbles explode out of the Northern,s mouth, and Northern is stunned as Musky flips it around, and takes it head first, like a feeding snake.That wasn,t the first time that Musky did that before.I have had many people in the past tell me they believe small Northerns are fed on by Muskies, and large Northerns, because of their shape making it easier to swallow.I also saw a picture of a 38" Musky trying to swallow a 32"(or 34") Musky, found dead floating on the top of the water. It was about 1/2 swallowed, head first.I also have caught Northerns, who got away from this attack with huge bruising/cuts all the way around, where you can see a very large fish had grabbed them from the side, just like the video I saw.In fact I have one sitting right in front me, I can send you.So, I don,t think fish with teeth bother them, that much. | |
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