|
|
Posts: 584
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BMmrU-5dSh8
Edited by muddymusky 2/24/2025 7:06 PM
| |
| | |
Posts: 352
| Good stuff.At least a start.Needed conversation. | |
| | |
Posts: 386
Location: Selkirk, Manitoba | Very cerebral discussion, especially regarding the effects of FFS on fishing quality.
So it has come to a point where FFS has caused:
- muskies not to follow anymore because they are exposed to lures to the point that they are conditioned to them.
- they are conditioned to human interaction (boat motor, trolling motor, transducer) and shying from those as well now due to the negative influence of FFS.
- they don't bite unless they actually are feeding - at night primarily for the reasons above.
- that so many muskies are caught by sharpshooters when they are vulnerable that there is serious sustainability concern with regards to decline in big fish numbers due to handling mortality.
- that muskies are potentially changing their entire activity and seasonal patterns due to all of the above influences from FFS.
- that due to FFS effects on the quality of fishing, that musky angling is evolving to an activity that really has no attraction to anyone that wasn't addicted to what it was, which was a fish that was unique in that it "followed," was a huge fish and hard to catch - none of which applies anymore.
Am I missing something?
Oh yeah, in order to allow FFS musky anglers to continue to do what they do, it has come to a point where we have to restrict everyone, including traditional anglers that are not causing any of the above issues, but still give FFS a free pass to go and do all things above during the rest of the season.
If FFS was banned three, four years ago I wonder what we would be discussing? It wouldn't be about creating seasonal musky refuges and questioning whether musky fishing has a future.
Still time to do the right and obvious choice.
Edited by Angling Oracle 2/25/2025 10:58 AM
| |
| | |
Posts: 2030
| Muskies were pushed to open water long before FFS ...side image was a terrible introduction and led us to today make sure you ban that too! Muskies are too valuable to have anymore than a 30 day long season lets do the right thing for the fish and make this a one month season, artificial only, barbless hooks and you cannot under any circumstance take the fish out of the water...all things that have been done before to protect other fish. Quit being selfish the muskies lives depend on doing everything I've listed! | |
| | |
Posts: 651
Location: Duluth | Until one side stops equating their ability to exploit a resource with "freedom" we have no hope. Only thing that will stop those folks from crying is the thing that eventually stops us all. | |
| | |
Posts: 386
Location: Selkirk, Manitoba | IAJustin - 2/25/2025 11:17 AM
Muskies were pushed to open water long before FFS ...side image was a terrible introduction and led us to today make sure you ban that too! Muskies are too valuable to have anymore than a 30 day long season lets do the right thing for the fish and make this a one month season, artificial only, barbless hooks and you cannot under any circumstance take the fish out of the water...all things that have been done before to protect other fish. Quit being selfish the muskies lives depend on doing everything I've listed!
We are barbless here and we just banned live baitfish, we are giving the bait dealers a short reprieve to wind down. And we actually do have a musky lake (Leech strain) here now in Manitoba and single barbless hook too.
But a fact check: muskies were never "pushed" to open water. They have always been in open water, and they have always been in deep water in cisco/whitefish lakes. This has always been the reality. Huge musky hanging out in shallow water didn't get big by hanging out there, they are just there to digest and likely some social aspect as well via phermones - same analogy as lions hanging out on the rocks but feeding on the savannah. You are going to hunt where the food is, and in these kind of lakes the food is big ciscoes and whitefish which are fatty and nutrient rich and soft-rayed, not pike, walleye, bass and other hard to catch and eat prey other than opportunistically. Up until this FFS thing, muskies in cisco lakes went and did their thing out pelagic (not harassed), then hung out at the reefs, weeds, etc where traditional anglers would do their best to catch them. Now they are potentially getting harassed all the time.
Is musky fishing easier because of all this "other" stuff. Absolutely. Frankly I'm okay with restricting gear even further if the trade is more encounters with big fish, whether I catch them or not is irrelevant. This other stuff makes it easier but probably universally for experienced and generally ethical anglers. FFS is ruining musky fishing for reasons as outlined.
You have a very interesting perception of me, like a firefighter tying to prevent your house from burning down but complaining about getting your car wet. None of this about me, it's about the house burning down.
Edited by Angling Oracle 2/25/2025 12:26 PM
| |
| | |
Posts: 20
| The damage has already been done to any body of water where guide services and content creators were utilizing this equipment.
It's why I took issue with the official stance of this board being "ethical use" - every angler's chances are now affected when a handful of anglers were able to disproportionately affect a given body of water with no regard for consequence.
| |
| | |
Posts: 124
| IAJustin - 2/25/2025 11:17 AM
Muskies were pushed to open water long before FFS ...side image was a terrible introduction and led us to today make sure you ban that too! Muskies are too valuable to have anymore than a 30 day long season lets do the right thing for the fish and make this a one month season, artificial only, barbless hooks and you cannot under any circumstance take the fish out of the water...all things that have been done before to protect other fish. Quit being selfish the muskies lives depend on doing everything I've listed!
You're using what's called the nirvana fallacy to argue nonsense. We can't let the perfect be the enemy of the good. Just because you don't control every single possible bad thing that could hurt muskies, doesn't mean you should just ignore the problem entirely. Asinine statement and one that doesn't appear to be made in good faith. And to argue muskies were "pushed" out to open water when that's where a fair amount of their forage exists is also a ridiculous statement. | |
| | |
Posts: 2030
| Fact check, they've been pushed to open water..and before FFS...never said they didn't use open water..j have caught hundreds in open water...tell some that have fished V and Mille lacs for 25 years (both that have Cisco's) that they haven't been pushed off the reefs...even Canada I saw that more and more 10-12 years ago on the "popular reefs" that at one time were dynamite for big fish | |
| | |
Posts: 2030
| I'll never forget how effective a DDD was on LOTW 2005-2012...probably find lots of old posts where I mention this, by far my best bait for 47-53" fish in those years - getting several casts off of tradition structure. | |
| | |
Posts: 386
Location: Selkirk, Manitoba | IAJustin - 2/25/2025 12:35 PM
Fact check, they've been pushed to open water..and before FFS...never said they didn't use open water..j have caught hundreds in open water...tell some that have fished V and Mille lacs for 25 years (both that have Cisco's) that they haven't been pushed off the reefs...even Canada I saw that more and more 10-12 years ago on the "popular reefs" that at one time were dynamite for big fish
If you are fishing the same places regularly up here then that is your data to mull over as to trying to postulate what's going on. I don't think one can jump to conclude because fish are not on a spot when you are fishing it is that they are going pelagic and not relating to those spots.
Yes, spots do get pressured and that results in fish sulking, moving off wherever they are holding, and that may include going deeper. I've seen it as well which was one of my first anecdotes regarding FFS up here - two boats harassing one fish pulled off a reef. Obviously fish are going to get educated and respond negatively. Pressure in any form is going to decrease one's odds. I can't speak to the lakes down there, but to this point where we are fishing big muskies still seem to be doing what they normally do with regards to primary spots. The issue with regards to the quality of musky fishing is that when they are not on these spots they are also getting harassed by FFS, potentially at depths that are correlated with increased mortality.
Edited by Angling Oracle 2/25/2025 1:32 PM
| |
| | |
Location: Contrarian Island | Justin so are you implying that you caught fish deep because of pressure? In my opinion that is a bit off. If there were zero boats on any given body of water they slide shallow and deep every day.. weather is the biggest factor. So to say pressure has pushed fish deep is off imo. Not sure what your point is by any of your comments. I think something needs to be done with regards to FFS. Having seen 4 or 5 boats all driving around all day on a small lake last fall sharp shooting it is pretty ridiculous what the 'sport' has become for some... it is only going to get worse with all the younger generation only looking for instant gratification and you tube views... I truly hope there are regulations on it for muskies in the near future. | |
| | |
Posts: 2343
Location: Chisholm, MN | It's mind blowing to me that someone who has caught a pile of muskies doesn't understand how bad FFS is for the future. I still think the depth rule is dumb AF though. | |
| | |
Posts: 2030
| I've been fortunate to be on some waters in the states that when young or maybe better said before they were "known" that the amount of muskies shallow year round was so much higher than after the lakes became a zoo that yes I know that pressure made them move deeper.. .shallow spot follows and heck even just seeing them on top sunning has become almost non-existent....2007-2012 really saw an increase in pressure on LOTW.. I'd follow boat around complexes and catch fish deeper than I saw anyone else fishing...many types of weather...did LOTW always have some fish in 10-15 feet June-August - I'm sure it did but my observation was definitely that pressure had them sliding deeper, especially as I already mentioned on complexes that got fished daily.. Do big fish still slide shallow for certain conditions on LOTW - absolutely...I think you'd be shocked how many big fish were on the reef if you banned boats for 10 years....the perch and walleye fall off the tops of reefs with boat traffic on them too... saw that a ton on LOTW when it was my job to put clients on walleyes. Ban FFS I don't care one bit, but can we ban some other stuff too while we are at it?
Edited by IAJustin 2/25/2025 3:27 PM
| |
| | |
Posts: 2343
Location: Chisholm, MN | IAJustin - 2/25/2025 3:13 PM
I've been fortunate to be on some waters in the states that when young or maybe better said before they were "known" that the amount of muskies shallow year round was so much higher than after the lakes became a zoo that yes I know that pressure made them move deeper.. .shallow spot follows and heck even just seeing them on top sunning has become almost non-existent....2007-2012 really saw an increase in pressure on LOTW.. I'd follow boat around complexes and catch fish deeper than I saw anyone else fishing...many types of weather...did LOTW always have some fish in 10-15 feet June-August - I'm sure it did but my observation was definitely that pressure had them sliding deeper, especially as I already mentioned on complexes that got fished daily.. Do big fish still slide shallow for certain conditions on LOTW - absolutely...I think you'd be shocked how many big fish were on the reef if you banned boats for 10 years....the perch and walleye fall off the tops of reefs with boat traffic on them too... saw that a ton on LOTW when it was my job to put clients on walleyes. Ban FFS I don't care one bit, but can we ban some other stuff too while we are at it?
Beginning in 2013 is when I noticed less fish sitting in shallow on Vermilion. So yes, FFS was not the first this to push them to open water. But there were lots of fish out there. That's also when the open water aimless casting bite took off out there. My take is that it's more complex. Fishing pressure in general pushed fish off the spots. But the open water pressure was also increasing at the same time. At that point, the fish were harassed, in some parts of the lake, non-stop. Less and less fish appeared in open water. Where did they go? Heaven. They're dead. Now more are dead.
| |
| | |
Posts: 2030
| Yes Kirby, guys knew they were out the in numbers thanks to their SI 
| |
| | |
Posts: 2343
Location: Chisholm, MN | IAJustin - 2/25/2025 3:48 PM
Yes Kirby, guys knew they were out the in numbers thanks to their SI
They knew they were out there long before SI. I did | |
| | |
Posts: 1321
| So, IAJustin, do you think there should be any changes to our regulations? No sarcasm, no gotcha. Just your honest opinion. If not, that's OK. It's your opinion, and we all have one. And if you do, what kind of change/changes would you like to see? | |
| | |
Posts: 8797
| Are those fish tired of being harassed and now have moved on to greener pastures?
Did they become conditioned to lures going by all of the time and no longer view them as a potential food source?
Or have the fish that inhabited those areas eventually been caught one too many times and now they're dead?
Thinking D. All of the above.
As far as fish "going pelagic", I always thought that was more a case of their size and weight requiring them to change their diet when the shallow forage was no longer enough to sustain them. i.e. they're going to wind up there eventually no matter what.
| |
| | |
Posts: 2030
| TCESOX - 2/25/2025 5:58 PM
So, IAJustin, do you think there should be any changes to our regulations? No sarcasm, no gotcha. Just your honest opinion. If not, that's OK. It's your opinion, and we all have one. And if you do, what kind of change/changes would you like to see?
If leech as a brood stock lake is in trouble, I’d protect the fish…. Not protect the way musky fisherman want to fish. When fish need to be protected I’ve never heard of the best way to do that by banning technology … I’ve hated the advancement in fish finders over the last 15+ years especially SI and that lead to where we are. But is banning FFS really the way to protect fish? Generally protected fish can’t be removed from the water, seasons are short, you require barbless hooks, artificial only etc. Maybe you do start the season July 4th to protect the fish?…. I keep stirring the pot because throughout 10+ different posts on FFS what I hear is let’s protect the way “I” want to fish…. I want to keep catching my 100 fish a year… but these FFS guys mess that up for me…. I was catching open water fish 20 years ago, a caught fish is just that , decline in MN muskies started way before FFS… now guys are chasing the scraps… too many boats not enough water for everyone is the real issue… tough problem to solve. | |
| | |
Posts: 568
Location: WI | IAJustin - 2/25/2025 11:44 PM
If leech as a brood stock lake is in trouble, I’d protect the fish…. Not protect the way musky fisherman want to fish.
Well said. | |
| | |
Posts: 97
Location: Eau Claire, WI | Great point Justin.
Edited by FishinXtreme 2/26/2025 7:31 AM
| |
| | |
Posts: 1321
| IAJustin - 2/25/2025 11:44 PM
TCESOX - 2/25/2025 5:58 PM
So, IAJustin, do you think there should be any changes to our regulations? No sarcasm, no gotcha. Just your honest opinion. If not, that's OK. It's your opinion, and we all have one. And if you do, what kind of change/changes would you like to see?
If leech as a brood stock lake is in trouble, I’d protect the fish…. Not protect the way musky fisherman want to fish. When fish need to be protected I’ve never heard of the best way to do that by banning technology … I’ve hated the advancement in fish finders over the last 15+ years especially SI and that lead to where we are. But is banning FFS really the way to protect fish? Generally protected fish can’t be removed from the water, seasons are short, you require barbless hooks, artificial only etc. Maybe you do start the season July 4th to protect the fish?…. I keep stirring the pot because throughout 10+ different posts on FFS what I hear is let’s protect the way “I” want to fish…. I want to keep catching my 100 fish a year… but these FFS guys mess that up for me…. I was catching open water fish 20 years ago, a caught fish is just that , decline in MN muskies started way before FFS… now guys are chasing the scraps… too many boats not enough water for everyone is the real issue… tough problem to solve.
Thanks for your thoughtful opinion. It is a tough problem to solve, and that's what we are trying to do. The more ideas we hear, the more likely a workable idea will emerge. The thing that makes it so difficult, is the timeline. The pace at which big fish are being killed is frightening, and Leech isn't the only place. As stated before, we can't stock our way out of this. At the rate things are going now, it won't be long before the muskie fishing industry and the resource itself, are going to crash. It'll be back to the days of very few muskie fisherman chasing very few muskies of smaller sizes. What is the best thing to do? All ideas are welcome. | |
| | |
Posts: 124
| IAJustin - 2/25/2025 11:44 PM
TCESOX - 2/25/2025 5:58 PM
So, IAJustin, do you think there should be any changes to our regulations? No sarcasm, no gotcha. Just your honest opinion. If not, that's OK. It's your opinion, and we all have one. And if you do, what kind of change/changes would you like to see?
If leech as a brood stock lake is in trouble, I’d protect the fish…. Not protect the way musky fisherman want to fish. When fish need to be protected I’ve never heard of the best way to do that by banning technology … I’ve hated the advancement in fish finders over the last 15+ years especially SI and that lead to where we are. But is banning FFS really the way to protect fish? Generally protected fish can’t be removed from the water, seasons are short, you require barbless hooks, artificial only etc. Maybe you do start the season July 4th to protect the fish?…. I keep stirring the pot because throughout 10+ different posts on FFS what I hear is let’s protect the way “I” want to fish…. I want to keep catching my 100 fish a year… but these FFS guys mess that up for me…. I was catching open water fish 20 years ago, a caught fish is just that , decline in MN muskies started way before FFS… now guys are chasing the scraps… too many boats not enough water for everyone is the real issue… tough problem to solve.
I guess the part where I run into trouble is you seem to be positing an "all or nothing" sort of regulatory scheme where if you don't do every single thing possible to protect mosukies, then you shouldn't do anything at all. If I am misreading you, let me know. If not, why is it all or nothing? Why can't the DNR, along with angler input and research, make decisions on each proposed reg individually and determine with public input what is acceptable? | |
| | |
Posts: 386
Location: Selkirk, Manitoba | IAJustin - 2/25/2025 11:44 PM
TCESOX - 2/25/2025 5:58 PM
So, IAJustin, do you think there should be any changes to our regulations? No sarcasm, no gotcha. Just your honest opinion. If not, that's OK. It's your opinion, and we all have one. And if you do, what kind of change/changes would you like to see?
If leech as a brood stock lake is in trouble, I’d protect the fish…. Not protect the way musky fisherman want to fish. When fish need to be protected I’ve never heard of the best way to do that by banning technology … I’ve hated the advancement in fish finders over the last 15+ years especially SI and that lead to where we are. But is banning FFS really the way to protect fish? Generally protected fish can’t be removed from the water, seasons are short, you require barbless hooks, artificial only etc. Maybe you do start the season July 4th to protect the fish?…. I keep stirring the pot because throughout 10+ different posts on FFS what I hear is let’s protect the way “I” want to fish…. I want to keep catching my 100 fish a year… but these FFS guys mess that up for me…. I was catching open water fish 20 years ago, a caught fish is just that , decline in MN muskies started way before FFS… now guys are chasing the scraps… too many boats not enough water for everyone is the real issue… tough problem to solve.
- Yes, banning FFS when fishing for muskies is the way to protect muskies.
A bit of deliberate cognitive dissonance on some of your points:
- Probably most fishing regulations are gear (technology) related, some season related, and some size related. You know that. You are being disingenuous again.
- it sounds like you regret and wish SI didn't exist, but for some reason okay with FFS?
- projecting (disingenuously again) with regards to motive. If FFS was actually a sustainable way to fish for muskies, then I personally would not care whether anyone uses it or not. To wit, I am perfectly okay with anyone using it on Lake Winnipeg for ice fishing (or open water) and will go fishing with people that have it. FFS isn't a sustainable way to fish for muskies, in fact you are arguing that point with regards to too much pressure.
You are correct as to what the issue is, and that is too much pressure on the fish. Heavy fishing in general, but in particular FFS as described in the video link is changing their behaviour and affecting the fishing experience, and the act of catching is causing both mortality and educating the fish to avoid negative experiences. Of the things that are causing this to occur and are addressable, the use of FFS is the additive one that is going to make the most significant difference in the quality of musky fishing if regulated, while at the same time being the least disruptive to the musky angling community as a group.
In my view the most equitable solution is to ban FFS use for muskies outright given it will provide the most gain with regards to all the issues mentioned. The quality of fishing will be restored (muskies will act "normally) and the mortality issues addressed to some extent. I personally am for having some limited musky refuge areas as well given you will want a pool of fish that can be free from pressure, at least until some equilibrium returns, but I don't think sustainability of population of big fish is a serious risk if this doesn't occur, this is just a quality of fishing tweak. It may be required from a regulatory enforcement point of view given if you allow FFS for other species then you may run into unintentional (or intentional) by-catch of muskies by anglers fishing for "other" species.
PS. We fish areas that from a NW Ontario perspective I would describe as extremely heavy pressure. I am sure not as bad as down US way, but when you mention spots getting hit "daily," these spots are hit many times a day, and certainly a few times back-to-back during prime time. In other words the fish are well educated. But as BNelson mentioned, when conditions are right, well, those fish that are sulking there all day, about to move out, or have moved up, well, you may get some action. There is no way to regulate this (I mean, just a few anglers can do this), nor should there be, just have to adapt and fit the pressure into the equation. You know this. I just mention because it is not that I am attempting to preserving some easy, dumb fish nirvana, just trying to preserve the few big fish that there are for the future, 'cause there are not that many.
Edited by Angling Oracle 2/26/2025 9:40 AM
| |
| | |
Posts: 1454
Location: Brighton CO. | Years ago I posted on Musky Hunter web sight about having a time machine and going back and going in any crude boat that floated and with any rig we fished with in the last 30-40 years and casted to fish before the Europeans landed in North America. And compare the fishing to today.
I my used to tell me in the 1930's when he first went up north you could go the Rainbow Flowage or any lake chain that added a dam to raise the water level and find flooded timber and take Baitcaster of the day and tie on a plan gold hook drop it down by timber without any bait or dressing and catch fish. | |
| | |
Posts: 386
Location: Selkirk, Manitoba | esoxaddict - 2/25/2025 8:08 PM
Are those fish tired of being harassed and now have moved on to greener pastures?
Did they become conditioned to lures going by all of the time and no longer view them as a potential food source?
Or have the fish that inhabited those areas eventually been caught one too many times and now they're dead?
Thinking D. All of the above.
As far as fish "going pelagic", I always thought that was more a case of their size and weight requiring them to change their diet when the shallow forage was no longer enough to sustain them. i.e. they're going to wind up there eventually no matter what.
Other than lake trout and burbot, all of the predators in musky waters tend rear in the littoral/shallow zone, and as they get larger adapt to selecting more energetically favourable prey, which in most cases is fatty pelagic species such as ciscoes or alewives.
In all cases they are just adapting to the prey available, and likely would become selective over time with physiological feedback that comes from foraging on their prey: easier to catch, swallow, hunger response.
I doubt there is some genetic disposition to moving pelagic, but there is likely scent driven and maybe even visual cues from other predators that drives behaviours.
Obviously not a lot of research on muskies or even pike, but I don't think there is really any difference as far as any of things that go on for muskies than there is for say a great white shark. They test things and have preferences and then focus on those preferences, follow the preferred prey to where they are abundant, and so on. Likewise I would suspect there is a social hierarchy with muskies as there is with these other solitary type large predators.
As far as influence of fishing, it is not necessarily going to change any of their prey preferences other than to the extent that this fishing pressure may alter what the prey is doing - ie boat traffic/motor/transducer beams, certainly affect whether the prey is going to be relaxed and act normally. However, exposure to lures, whether from those using FFS, trolling, or whatever, certainly is going to acclimate and educate the fish. I don't think muskies are any different with regards to checking out lures other than their fearlessness with respect the boat, shadows, movement etc which is not a trait of say pike, for example. I see multiple occurrences of muskies "snapping" every year - this is clearly the musky trying to draw in molecules to try and taste whatever it is they are chasing. I've even had them tentatively bite - it is not a feeding bite, but to taste. I suspect many of the "bites" we all get is just that, an attempted taste. Again, one can relate to this being something that great whites do, as surely when they are eating, they are not going to bite and swim away, which is what they often do. This reinforces the idea that these fish are quite intelligent and do learn and adapt and have a memory for both positive, but more importantly, for negative experiences.
Really the whole FFS situation with Leech/Vermillion is sensory overload for the muskies there, with all of it being negative feedback as far as any individual musky is concerned. They are going to learn from these negative interactions and respond accordingly in a negative way, as per the anecdotes described in the video link. Fish are not dumb, but even a well educated musky is going to make mistakes when the environmental conditions and the demeanor of the fish is feeding positive. But the mistakes by the fish will become fewer, the anglers and the technology will "improve," and the negative feedback will continue. Contemporaneously, the "mistakes" by some big fish biting a lure will be their last - ie the current Minnesota state record caught by Sprengler.
In Manitoba we have the greatest channel catfish fishery in the world, soon to have the greatest (if not already the greatest) walleye fishery in the world, and in the not too distant future, soon to have the greatest drive-to pike fishery in the world with new no-over rules. I don't know what kind of black crappie fishing you have (I don't find them that interesting, other than nice to look at), but I can assure you we will have better than whatever that is too - if not already. On the other hand, I liked the "open" spring pike season in Ontario and obviously the economic benefits that come with that, so we opened that up here as for a variety of species (no closed season). Regulations are not to be feared and can be adapted with time. A regulation banning FFS for muskies is really an obvious one given how few of them there are. No one is naïve enough to believe that it is not going to get worse before it gets better. No one is looking out for muskies other than musky anglers.
| |
| | |
Posts: 97
Location: Eau Claire, WI | Has there been an actual scientific study that shows the decline in population due to FFS? Or is it opinion based on more fish caught equals a higher death rate? If you do spot a dead fish floating, how can you tell its a result of FFS? | |
| | |
Posts: 386
Location: Selkirk, Manitoba | FishinXtreme - 2/26/2025 11:46 AM
Has there been an actual scientific study that shows the decline in population due to FFS? Or is it opinion based on more fish caught equals a higher death rate? If you do spot a dead fish floating, how can you tell its a result of FFS?
Any decline in population or the percentage of large muskies in a population is going to be related to the combination of natural and fishing mortality from all causes. Individually fishing mortalities are going to be from direct injuries or morbidity which in the case of FFS could be exacerbated by depth caught, fight time, poor handling, type of lure and where ingested. I don't use FFS but I do understand tubes are used frequently which are susceptible to deep hooking.
Not an opinion in that math is never wrong. A percentage of all fish caught die. High catch rate (FFS) means the number of mortalities increase. This is additive to mortalities from natural and other methods of fishing. Regardless of what the mortality is from, once morality exceeds recruitment, there will be a decline. You cannot replace 15 year old fish next year with 1 year old fish. You need 14 year old fish to do that. Need 13 year olds to replace 14 year olds, and so on. If your catch rates are high on all these age classes, and your recruitment doesn't replace those mortalities, then you are going to collapse your fishery in a very short time.
An accurate creel of all fish caught and some estimates on age of the fish caught can get one started getting this all sorted, but appears that the Leech group has enough personal observation data to be concerned that such a collapse is a real possibility.
It sounds like you are interested in fish science, here you go if you want to run some numbers:
https://waves-vagues.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/library-bibliotheque/10161.pdf
Edited by Angling Oracle 2/26/2025 2:38 PM
| |
| | |
Location: Contrarian Island | there is a guide that was boasting about "multiple" 15 fish days on Leech last year on facebook. 15 fish days.. before FFS I'm guessing 5 or 6 fish on Leech was a great day. now it's sharp shooting 15. There are other guides that sharp shooting is all they do, 100% of the time. I have seen that guy on the water, he will circle a fish with his client casting at it for a long time.. talk about pathetic. as pointed about above it's simple MATH. Technology has been banned in other things like deer hunting banning the use of cell phone trail cams or drones etc. I don't understand why some think that some technology 'could' very well be banned for fishing. FFS imo will be the downfall of musky fishing as we know it. I'm not a sky is falling type of person but with stocking seemingly everywhere going down, and catch rates only going up. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to put 2 and 2 together. Sharp shooting imo is over the line of what fair chase is.
Edited by BNelson 2/26/2025 2:09 PM
| |
| | |
Posts: 2030
| To paraphrase my multiple posts on this subject (most not in this thread) filled with pot stirring and at times sarcasm.. I don’t like many legal ways people hunt and fish…Brad just posted an example i almost used I’m personally fine if every state banned all forms of trail cameras for deer hunting, I think it really tips the advantage in favor of the hunter, personally I could say the same thing about a rifle’s make a hunter get closer than 300 yards….back to muskie fishing, personally I wish sucker fishing was completely banned back when J hooks were an issue…I think lakes where muskies see 1000 suckers a year on a QS rig have become increasingly difficult to catch fish on lures or maybe the 200 boats out there in the fall just killed a bunch…never forget a boat in MN throwing out suckers on Zebco’ss… anyway I could go on, All the examples I gave would never be completely banned although I personally would never participate …. Asking states to ban technology items that have 1000’s of users is a slippery slope … my posts often give extreme examples but included some ideas that probably would be better to protect the fish, I promise you they will get caught with or without FFS , we have got too good at our craft…and you can’t unlearn what is known …of course I’m personally for no ffs, I’m for no SI too, I’m for barbless hooks, artificial only and leaving muskies in the water 100% of the time on Leech starting immediately to protect brood stock…their are many out there that think all muskie stocking should be banned, I’m sure many on here wish Eagle lake, Ontario night fishing wasn’t banned…. Banning anything is a slippery slope, and I personally think banning FFS in MN just puts a bandaid on a wound that needs 1000 stitches….technology advances are going to become a huge problem for humans, and unfortunately it’s bled into fishing, many of us could see it coming 10+ years ago.
Edited by IAJustin 2/27/2025 7:13 AM
| |
| | |
Posts: 20
| I'm personally fine if every state banned all forms of forward facing sonar, I think it really tips the advantage in favor of the angler, personally I could say the same thing about transducers make an angler get closer than 30 yards | |
| | |
Posts: 359
Location: Long Prairie, Minnesota | BNelson - 2/26/2025 2:06 PM
there is a guide that was boasting about "multiple" 15 fish days on Leech last year on facebook. 15 fish days.. before FFS I'm guessing 5 or 6 fish on Leech was a great day. now it's sharp shooting 15. There are other guides that sharp shooting is all they do, 100% of the time. I have seen that guy on the water, he will circle a fish with his client casting at it for a long time.. talk about pathetic. as pointed about above it's simple MATH. Technology has been banned in other things like deer hunting banning the use of cell phone trail cams or drones etc. I don't understand why some think that some technology 'could' very well be banned for fishing. FFS imo will be the downfall of musky fishing as we know it. I'm not a sky is falling type of person but with stocking seemingly everywhere going down, and catch rates only going up. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to put 2 and 2 together. Sharp shooting imo is over the line of what fair chase is.
This post I couldn't agree with more. It seems that with FFS, sharpshooting has become the norm. I posted this before, but will say it again. Watched a YouTube video of a guide with client up on Vermillion. Neither one of them every looked outside the boat at the lake. They sat and looked at the FFS screen until they found a fish, guide would say cast, client casts and then they both go right back to the screen to watch the bait and fish react to one another. That cast didn't work, lets do the whole dog and pony show all over again. My question: What did that client learn about musky fishing that day? Got a great lesson on how to use FFS tho.
The MNDNR is probably more to blame than anyone, IMO. In the early 2000's it seemed as Minnesota was THE place to come and fish for big fish. Mille Lacs, Leech and other lakes were incredible. The state had to be making money hand over fist with license fees, and the resorts/guides were doing great too. Then what? Stocking was reduced dramatically, almost down to nonexistent. Why? There is no current musky stocking plan in place, hell they just did a survey of anglers this past year and how long will that take to come up with a new plan, get it through all the channels, and enact it? This should have been happening BEFORE that last stocking plan expired. Lets be proactive and not reactive doesn't seem to ring true for the MNDNR. There just simply needs to also need to be more waters available to anglers. Minnesota has over 10,000 lakes and only 102 of them have musky in them. That is 2% of the lakes/rivers within the borders of the state. 2% aint much when you have more and more anglers coming into the sport. The MNDNR needs to get their head out of their fourth point of contact.
I know that in my area there has been talk by the fisheries about possible lakes that COULD be stocked and the resistance is so strong from the walleye guys. Gonna eat all the walleyes, sure every musky angler has hear that a million times if they have heard it once. Whenever someone tells me that, I simply ask them to name the Top 10 walleye lakes in the state ( 1. Mille Lacs, 2. LOTW 3. Pepin 4. Vermillion 5. Cass 6. Kabetogama 7. Leech 8. Red 9. Rainy River 10. Winnie) A majority of the lakes have musky swimming in them don't they?
I will say that I do agree with IAJustin in that if people want to ban FFS, lets kick SI in there as well. But perhaps because of my age, I am just to "old school" | |
| | |
Posts: 1321
| Ten year plan from the DNR will be coming out this year (several years late). We can't be adding lakes, when we don't even have the ability to raise all the fish we need for the current lakes. Plus, the DNR took a ridiculous amount of heat, the last time we added lakes. The new 10 year plan does allow for adding lakes, if fish availability increases, and there is more demand for new water. | |
| | |
Posts: 2343
Location: Chisholm, MN | TCESOX - 3/2/2025 3:08 PM
Ten year plan from the DNR will be coming out this year (several years late). We can't be adding lakes, when we don't even have the ability to raise all the fish we need for the current lakes. Plus, the DNR took a ridiculous amount of heat, the last time we added lakes. The new 10 year plan does allow for adding lakes, if fish availability increases, and there is more demand for new water.
If they wanted to, they would find a way to get more fish and stock them. | |
| |
|
Pete Maina video on fishing electronics