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Location: S.W. WI | I have been contemplating what FFS actually stands for.
My first ones are:
Free From Skills.
Far From Skilled.
Far From Sporting.
you have any? |
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Posts: 170
Location: Cedarburg, WI. | F***king Fish Specifically
Fancy Fish Stalker
Floater Fabricating Software
and my break is over... back to work! |
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| I like the Far From Sporting.
I am old enough to remember when catch and release of muskies was not cut and dried like it is today. The best advocates for it approached calmly and from an educational standpoint. |
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| Fishing For Socials (media). FFS use seems to correlate with YouTube and Instagram heroes. |
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | North of 8 - 9/18/2024 2:02 PM
I like the Far From Sporting.
I am old enough to remember when catch and release of muskies was not cut and dried like it is today. The best advocates for it approached calmly and from an educational standpoint.
This. |
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Location: S.W. WI | Rudedog - 9/18/2024 1:08 PM
I have been contemplating what FFS actually stands for.
My first ones are:
Free From Skills.
Far From Skilled.
Far From Sporting.
you have any?
My thought was if a negative one could stick, maybe it could help discourage,... sort of along the lines of Muskies inc. stance. Discourage it. |
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Location: Ludington, MI | I have always heard For Cluck's Sake. But maybe that's too many years in restaurants, newspapers and real estate. |
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Posts: 123
| how about: top 5% old-school fisherman who added new tools and skills to become even better, with reinvigorated fishing interest after 23 years non-stop pounding same lake. watching the fish swim around in real time has blown my mind on how they behave, ie big stripers in my lake swim from bottom at 30 ft right up to top and back down again in the heat of Summer! I always thought they were horizontally stratified due to 02 levels, temps, etc. Or maybe moved up in dark and back down with light, not up/down/up/down/up/down in 2 mins! Also, sometimes I see packs right below the surface 1-3 ft that I can cast to. Old SI and down sonar didn't pickup these fish just below surface and I speculate when I trolled over they scattered to sides so I never saw them at ALL, all day. Just two things I've learned so far.
Plus, I still love SI trolling with my Humminbird (no FFS at all).
***
Heres one I saw
If you ain't scopin, your just hopin.
yeah its stupid saying, just like the ones on the other side
Let's just go fishing without judging other anglers as unethical and "free from skills".
Edited by curdmudgeon 9/19/2024 7:41 AM
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| curdmudgeon - 9/19/2024 8:37 AM
how about: top 5% old-school fisherman who added new tools and skills to become even better, with reinvigorated fishing interest after 23 years non-stop pounding same lake. watching the fish swim around in real time has blown my mind on how they behave, ie big stripers in my lake swim from bottom at 30 ft right up to top and back down again in the heat of Summer! I always thought they were horizontally stratified due to 02 levels, temps, etc. Or maybe moved up in dark and back down with light, not up/down/up/down/up/down in 2 mins! Also, sometimes I see packs right below the surface 1-3 ft that I can cast to. Old SI and down sonar didn't pickup these fish just below surface and I speculate when I trolled over they scattered to sides so I never saw them at ALL, all day. Just two things I've learned so far.
Plus, I still love SI trolling with my Humminbird (no FFS at all).
***
Heres one I saw
If you ain't scopin, your just hopin.
yeah its stupid saying, just like the ones on the other side
Let's just go fishing without judging other anglers as unethical and "free from skills".
If the behavior of the fish blows your mind, I can't wait to hear your reaction to when you realize how your ability to constantly apply pressure to a population results in their disappearance.
nothing about your ignorance towards reality is beneficial to sustaining our fisheries |
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Location: Athens, Ohio | "...your ability to constantly apply pressure to a population results in their disappearance."
Oh, for goodness sakes. Really? ? m |
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Location: Walker, MN | Insert popcorn meme |
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| mikie - 9/19/2024 9:55 AM
"...your ability to constantly apply pressure to a population results in their disappearance."
Oh, for goodness sakes. Really? ? m
It would appear you missed the last part of my post
Why is the access to knowing exactly where the fish are and what they are doing more important than conserving the limited resources that are our collective passion?
Edited by Tyendinaga 9/19/2024 9:30 AM
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Posts: 122
Location: Twin Cities Metro | How about…
Free From Self-righteousness? |
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | It's here, not going anywhere, and will improve. Use it ethically. Please don't pretend we all don't know what that means.
I have SI, 360, and FFS on my boat. I choose not to sharpshoot and never will. I use the tech for boat control, not to target individual fish. Mega Live is on 90% of the time I'm on the water, and I simply glance at it like I have 2D for years to keep my boat on the structure. If I found myself staring at it, I'd take it off the boat.
The tech is fine; it's misuse that inevitably will be called out. |
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Location: Chisholm, MN | I've been talking to a younger musky guy who's pretty new to the game. He has a scope and is dialed in. He has maybe 70 fish this year in his boat and this is from Vermilion. He's new!
He told me a new one today. He's Livin on Scopes and Dreams |
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Kirby Budrow - 9/19/2024 1:11 PM
I've been talking to a younger musky guy who's pretty new to the game. He has a scope and is dialed in. He has maybe 70 fish this year in his boat and this is from Vermilion. He's new!
He told me a new one today. He's Livin on Scopes and Dreams
Depending on who one listens to, angling mortality for Muskies is going to average at about 8 to 10%. Sharpshooters, even if well-versed in C&R, will make a serious dent. With stocking down 30% or more in the North, that's an ominous thought. |
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| With multiple "Fs" involved, I'm afraid I can't publicly enunciate how I feel, without getting my mouth washed out with soap.
Edited by TCESOX 9/19/2024 11:59 PM
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Location: Selkirk, Manitoba | Steve, I think the crowd that was perhaps sitting on the fence on the ethical side of things (ie are fishing classically and prefer that, but perhaps wondering if would be nice to have an extra edge now and then, or scenario specific advantage) are probably now convinced that live imaging a bit too much of an advantage. They realize that if every knowledgeable musky angler started using it effectively, that the cumulative catch rates and associated mortality will be devastating - so they are using voluntarily restraint, no different that say if they spot a musky in deep water, if they have it, they are using ethically, as you are, or choosing not to use it at for muskies or even purchase it.
Ethical restraint is not going to be enough. The situation we are in is not the catch and release education scenario of the past, although there are parallels as far as how fragile the musky age structure is and the empirical evidence of how long a recovery period would be.
It is not that the folks that cannot be "convinced" have any ill-intent, it is a combination of not compelling enough, or they are not even reachable; they are not even part of the musky "community" to begin with: the occasional weekend guys/tourist anglers and probably a lot of new musky anglers of whatever age. The young (or new) angler that Kirby mentioned is one that I can relate to given my musky partner's son falls into the same category - it is not really his problem to even think about consequences, there are others doing that for them and not their perceived responsibility. Cannot blame nor condemn them as we were all those people at one point, we just wanted to catch fish and that was the only thing front of mind. We now have the luxury of experience or success to be able to think big picture about fisheries that we won't even ever necessarily visit. It's understandable that many folks have no interest in giving this issue any thought, or on the other hand, that some are offended that someone else is going to try and limit their opportunities, especially when there is something legal to make whatever musky aspirations they have become more obtainable. If it is "easier" for them to obtain it, they are not at fault for that, and who are we to say it is unethical?
An ethical stance is helpful, but it is not going to be enough.
END JUSTIFIES THE MEANS
I have sort of beat it over the head repeatedly: if we want trophy musky fisheries (old, long, large muskies) we need to absolutely minimize mortality. It is perhaps a bit abstract, but I sense the folks think about that 30 inch fish they catch "probably" survived. 9 or more times out of 10 it probably did. But it has to survive the next time(s) it is caught that same year, the year after that, the year after that, the year after that, the year after that, the year after that, the year after that, the year after that, the year after that, the year after that, the year after that, the year after that, the year after that... You get my drift.
The reason why big muskies exist now is because most do survive: they may very well not get caught at all in a year, maybe not in two, maybe not in three years. Even the most experienced anglers have a hard time catching them with "traditional" methods and tech. Sure we have a lot of great tech and gear to make it easier - but live imaging is an especially large leap. Not only can it tell us where fish are precisely (and how it is reacting to our lures in real time in a third dimension), but tell is when it is coming, tell us where it is going. Open water is no longer a refuge, but in fact prime spotlighting grounds. Even if we don't catch it or it doesn't react, live sonar tells us a lot of information that we never would have know otherwise. It makes a very efficient musky angler exponentially more efficient; it can make someone who probably not patient enough to fish by classically "grinding" to be very effective and retain their interest. Many, many more muskies can be caught with it than if it didn't exist, and with that comes more mortality -> more mortality x time = no more big muskies. Simple math.
Now for those fishing places like Ohio, the Dakotas, perhaps New Brunswick and Maine, with low pressure and low catch rates, fishing mortality even with live sonar is likely below the "critical" threshold for years to come. Everywhere else the tech is not ubiquitous and many folks that have it are not yet as effective and efficient with it as they could be, but that is changing rapidly. And this live tech is only going to get better and cheaper and easier to use. Musky fishing WILL DECLINE as a direct result of live sonar.
Is there any other answer than banning live sonar for muskies in their native range and lakes with limited stocking and high pressure? No, there is not. Banning is the means to and end, with that end being sustainable musky fishing. Even those using live sonar want that, they just are not ready to embrace the reality there is only one path to get there.
I don't know what other solution we have. You and many others are using voluntary restraint. It is not enough. We need mandatory restraint.
Edited by Angling Oracle 9/20/2024 3:08 PM
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Location: Minnesota. | Kirby Budrow - 9/19/2024 1:11 PM
I've been talking to a younger musky guy who's pretty new to the game. He has a scope and is dialed in. He has maybe 70 fish this year in his boat and this is from Vermilion. He's new!
He told me a new one today. He's Livin on Scopes and Dreams
WOW, #*^@....that hurts... |
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Location: WI | Angling Oracle - 9/20/2024 2:19 PM
END JUSTIFIES THE MEANS
This proclamation made me throw up in my mouth a little bit. |
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Location: Selkirk, Manitoba | raftman - 9/20/2024 3:43 PM
Angling Oracle - 9/20/2024 2:19 PM
END JUSTIFIES THE MEANS
This proclamation made me throw up in my mouth a little bit.
Desired effect then!
Not my favourite idiom either, but we are not debating Hiroshima here though |
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Posts: 238
Location: Minneapolis, Minnesota | I am so tired of this topic being beat to death. At this point it’s like politics. Guys that are against it aren’t going to change their view, and guys that use it aren’t going to listen or change their view. It’s just arguing for the sake of arguing. I sold my livescope over the winter and haven’t used it this year, caught my first 2 50’s and had the best season of my life so far. I have nothing against ffs, if it’s ethically used it’s just another tool. There’s a group of people, perfect example tanner Talbot, that only can catch musky by sharpshooting and have no morals around targeting/snagging fish 30-100ft deep and don’t care about killing fish as long as they get a picture for Instagram. Unless there are some sort of law put in place to make stop sharpshooting or livescope entirely, nobody that uses it will stop since thats the way they can put fish in the boat.
At this point, just like politics, people’s opinions are set and aren’t changing so not much use in arguing about it |
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Location: Chisholm, MN | People's opinions change in politics all the time when something happens they don't like. Same thing here. When there are no more 50s to catch, opinions will change. Squeaky wheel gets the grease. I say keep complaining. That's the only way something gets heard. |
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| I've definitely heard the "if you're not scopin you're just hopin" one before.
My favorite is the term used to describe someone who relies solely on it to succeed in competition. Scope Wizard |
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| Well you know, people say, scopes are for dopes. |
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Posts: 633
Location: Bloomington, MN | I remember just having a Lowrance flasher unit and people stated I was cheating. I did better than they did because I fished harder and longer. Then I added as Si-Tex paper graph. My catches may have improved, but I did learn the water much better. My turning point was GPS. No more orange markers/bleach bottles tossed in to go back on a spot. Now I have 3 Humminbird units on the boat with side imaging and after 6-8 years they are just decorations. I never really used SI, but if I can get the depth to work, I'm lucky. They are outdated and unfixable. I do love 356 degree water temps, and the multi-times per day they lock up! The RH side of SI hasn't worked in the last few years. They recently got updated, and got much worse. I was told they are old like a 5-year-old laptop. We were so out fished by guys at a Canadian camp last week and ironically, we caught the 2 largest, and they all had FFS. It seems if I can learn to use one it could be fun, but I still embrace the surprise. This technology has been around for more than a few years. I heard the Minnesota State record was caught using FFS, but they were out when I couldn't handle the conditions to begin with, and probably would have caught it due to their persistence. Does anyone have an old paper graph with about 50 rolls to sell before I can take up pickleball? I do miss that smell and sound of the singing stylex. |
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Posts: 633
Location: Bloomington, MN | I remember just having a Lowrance flasher unit and people stated I was cheating. I did better than they did because I fished harder and longer. Then I added a Si-Tex paper graph. My catches may have improved, but I did learn the water much better. My turning point was GPS. No more orange markers/bleach bottles tossed in to go back on a spot. Now I have 3 Humminbird units on the boat with side imaging and after 6-8 years they are just decorations. I never really used SI, but if I can get the depth to work, I'm lucky. They are outdated and unfixable. I do love 356 degree water temps, and the multi-times per day they lock up! The RH side of SI hasn't worked in the last few years. They recently got updated and got much worse. I was told they are old like a 5-year-old laptop. We were so out fished by guys at a Canadian camp last week and ironically, we caught the 2 largest, and they all had FFS. It seems if I can learn to use one it could be fun, but I still embrace the surprise. This technology has been around for more than a few years. I heard the Minnesota State record was caught using FFS, but they were out when I couldn't handle the conditions to begin with, and probably would have caught it due to their persistence. Does anyone have an old paper graph with about 50 rolls to sell before I can take up pickleball? I do miss that smell and sound of the burning stylex needle!
Edited by Clark A 9/25/2024 1:19 AM
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| CHEER UP, FOLKS, THE PAPER GRAPH DID NOT END MUSKY FISHING. THIS WILL PASS AT SOME POINT, HAS TOO. |
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Location: Hayward, Wisconsin | THIS IS DIFFERENT!!!!!
It is NOT fair chase...PERIOD! |
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| LARRY, THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT I WAS TRYING TO MINICK. BAD, BAD JOB ON MY PART. JUST TRYING TO AWAKEN THOSE WHO SAID THIS WOULD NOT DESTROY WHAT WE LOVE. IT WILL, AND WE KNOW IT. |
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Posts: 633
Location: Bloomington, MN | FFS will bring the so called new go-to 55" back to the old or 48 real quick! I've seen it, these folks are really good! I'm actually envious of them getting these huge fish .The amount of little ones or big ones don't always make it through. Too many fish hooked!
Edited by Clark A 9/27/2024 11:22 PM
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Location: Duluth | Far From Sporting is good.
Spent Saturday knee deep in a stream chasing steelhead and bumping birds with my dog. Not super inclined to get back in the boat and rerun spots that have been fished to death by the scope crowd. Might stay that way for the rest of my fishing life. |
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Location: Selkirk, Manitoba | Larry Ramsell - 9/25/2024 3:33 PM
THIS IS DIFFERENT!!!!!
It is NOT fair chase...PERIOD!
https://www.outdoorlife.com/fishing/world-length-record-muskie-westo...
Legally caught, but... I mean would be nice if was actually caught by someone who could appreciate what muskies are and what musky fishing is, not this... |
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Location: Duluth | Its a farce. At least one bad apple loves all of the attention. |
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Location: WI |
Agreed. Hiring a guide to catch a big fish and claiming personal success is weak. |
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| In today's Star Tribune.
https://www.startribune.com/anderson-is-it-muskie-fishing-or-muskie-...
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Location: Duluth | Glad that guides feel they have enough public support to speak up.
Also, lol, ego's in muskie fishing....never |
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Location: Athens, Ohio | "The fish of ten thousand cash" - I likes it. m |
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Location: Ames, Iowa | I'm very old scool, and I know my lake well enough to know there are big fish everywhere on it. Given that, I have to use the old Lindner F + L + P formula to catch fish. I have to think about the sun, the water temperature, the wind direction, the condition of weeds, depth, my baits, my boat and boat control to catch fish.
To me FFS is akin to spotlighting deer. |
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Posts: 213
| There appears to be a fly fishing mindset that has spread to portion of the musky community. That is 'I really don't care if I catch a fish; i just need to do it right and look good doing it." instead of a funny hat and cute vest with flies hanging on it the musky crowd points to the foot locker full of custom baits. I only went sharp shooting once and that happened to be under the tutelage of a MN Guide.
I don't sharp shoot and the lakes I fish are not conducive to it anyway. I'm using the FFS to follow weed lines and locate schools of bait. I any event I offer the following.
Fishing For Success |
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| Interesting article from the Star Tribune, in particular the views of veteran guides.
Really wish I had talked to my guide on Eagle Lake this past summer about FFS. I saw he had a mount on his boat for it, but not in use. We fished all day, mostly on wind blown structure and maybe 20% of the time on a couple weedy bays. I caught two nice fish, he had a couple of follows he was not able to convert and I had a swing and a miss by a decent fish. His game plan before we left the dock on a day with winds over 20 mph was wind blown reefs, rock points, rock bars. He guides full time on Eagle, really wish I had thought to talk to him about FFS while we ate our sandwiches. Guy in his late twenties, so I am sure he is at least interested in the tech. |
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| pstrombe - 12/27/2024 7:53 AM
There appears to be a fly fishing mindset that has spread to portion of the musky community. That is 'I really don't care if I catch a fish; i just need to do it right and look good doing it." instead of a funny hat and cute vest with flies hanging on it the musky crowd points to the foot locker full of custom baits.
I found this interesting, as over the last couple of years, I've spent way more time patrolling trout streams in the driftless area, than I have in my boat, fishing for muskies. I feel like after so many years chasing muskies, it can get a little old. I'm satisfied with the successes I've had, and as I get older, hooking up and hauling the boat around is a bit tiresome. Plus all the people on the water. I almost never see anyone else on the trout streams. Now that I've been having success learning and catching trout on conventional tackle, I have a weird feeling that it's too easy, so I"m shopping for fly equipment, to make it more challenging. |
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Location: Ames, Iowa | Exactly the same thing I'm doing. |
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Location: Duluth | TCESOX - 12/29/2024 11:56 AM
pstrombe - 12/27/2024 7:53 AM
There appears to be a fly fishing mindset that has spread to portion of the musky community. That is 'I really don't care if I catch a fish; i just need to do it right and look good doing it." instead of a funny hat and cute vest with flies hanging on it the musky crowd points to the foot locker full of custom baits.
I found this interesting, as over the last couple of years, I've spent way more time patrolling trout streams in the driftless area, than I have in my boat, fishing for muskies. I feel like after so many years chasing muskies, it can get a little old. I'm satisfied with the successes I've had, and as I get older, hooking up and hauling the boat around is a bit tiresome. Plus all the people on the water. I almost never see anyone else on the trout streams. Now that I've been having success learning and catching trout on conventional tackle, I have a weird feeling that it's too easy, so I"m shopping for fly equipment, to make it more challenging.
Last two seasons I have been checking the fly fishing trout boxes, still looking for that 3lb Brook Trout. My sentiment mirrors yours: the places it takes me, the lack of pressure and the attention to detail required to get big fish to eat is a superior draw at this time in my life.
I really pick my days musky fishing now, and do well. |
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| Have gotten to know several hard core trout fishermen at the YMCA I belong to. They are some happy guys. And in great shape. I was shocked to find out one of them had been a combat medic in Vietnam in 1965. A lot of guys in their 40s and 50s would have a hard time keeping up with him. His face just lights up when he talks about finding a new stretch of river/stream that produces brookies. Another guy just had his hip replaced. Timing of the surgery was so he would be fully ready to hit the streams when spring comes. He was still lifting weights two days before surgery. |
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| Well then c'mon over to the twin cities trout unlimited chapter,,they alternate their meetings between fat pants brewery in Eden prairie and the wild boar in Oakdale,,you just missed a good one a seasoned veteran showed how to plan a fantastic trip to Montana.. |
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Location: Selkirk, Manitoba | pstrombe - 12/27/2024 7:53 AM
There appears to be a fly fishing mindset that has spread to portion of the musky community. That is 'I really don't care if I catch a fish; i just need to do it right and look good doing it." instead of a funny hat and cute vest with flies hanging on it the musky crowd points to the foot locker full of custom baits. I only went sharp shooting once and that happened to be under the tutelage of a MN Guide.
I don't sharp shoot and the lakes I fish are not conducive to it anyway. I'm using the FFS to follow weed lines and locate schools of bait. I any event I offer the following.
Fishing For Success
Fishing for Success => Fits the acronym - but hope that is not your definition of success.
As far as the fly fishing crowd, in the fly fishing realm that I exist in, (as well as musky fishing) if I even see any other anglers I (or we) move on. Musky fishing I am going to put my rod down and pick up a spinning outfit to prevent burning some less obvious or ephemeral spots. Fly fishing (the places I fish anyway), there is a certain amount of courtesy with regards to fishing a known pool or productive riffle/run where you don't camp. You are always going to get exceptions with a slob angler or someone who just doesn't get it that hogs a spot or flogs it so the fish sulk permanently. Fish a spot and move on, which is typically the best strategy anyway. You are not putting on a show for anyone.
Fly anglers certainly do have "a look." The look you are referring to though is because as a fly angler you are carrying everything you need with you, and as with any pursuit, the more sturdy, better built (higher end materials) etc, the more expensive - and hence perhaps someone that is particularly into fly fishing is going to have an appearance that sets them apart. I doubt they give one sh-t what anyone thinks of what they look like though.
I highly recommend folks that are thinking about fly fishing to take it up. I probably do it once or twice a year now (last year for wild brown trout in Germany - Bad Wuttemburg). Basically has similar experience to this fellow although I had to leave prior to the evening hatch:
https://youtu.be/50iGXYO6L4c?si=VCuWGI_MQEfwHpS3
Fished the exact same stretch - amazing how the beavers have come back there. They were extirpated until pretty recently - beavers were considered "fish" so the monks of the region (Catholic) could eat them during Lent (Fridays).
The reality is that there are a lot of places in the world where one can fly fish but other methods not possible. Fly fishing gear is light (waders not so much).
Success in fishing is the entire experience, the catching I think for most is only one small part of it. The Grosse Lauter trip and I fished the nearby Blau, I did catch some nice native brown trout and some rainbows, but a big part of the success was everything about the struggle to get a license to start with and actually getting to fish some streams there. The food, beer, talking with other anglers and picking up some big rubber for muskies in a German fishing store were definitely a bonus. The fact that I can reflect fondly on it now and it is an indelible memory makes it a success. The fish catching is a miniscule part of that memory.
Bottom line: whatever FFS brings to the table, it won't bring you any closer to what success really is.
Edited by Angling Oracle 1/9/2025 11:47 AM
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FFS acronym