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Posts: 7039
Location: Northwest Chicago Burbs | It might be a tad early to start talking about this, but I just got in from icefishing and I'm still defrosting 2 hours later! It's going on the end of February, and MatchFISHING sign-up will be early to mid May, but just wanted to take a moment to paste in the link to last years rules, and tell everyone HERE about the possible rule changes for 2004. For last year's rules go to: http://muskie.outdoorsfirst.com/matchfishing.asp
Next year's MatchFISHING will be a little different, namely we will be going with 16 pools of 3 (which means 48 teams...which means tell your friends and neighbors, we need to find 16 more teams for next year's play) and a two sided bracket system (white and blue divisions). More details will be ironed out and presented to the MuskieFIRST members as they are finalized. A little competition, a little trash talking, and a whole lot of fun has made this into a great event. Check out the link, and start thinking of your partner for next year, your team name, and the lakes you'll be fishing inorder to take home the prize in the 3rd Annual MuskieFIRST MatchFISHING Tournament.
*Jonesi, ToddM, Kly, and others will be REQUIRED to participate this year!!!!! (that is a joke btw....SORTA!)
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Posts: 686
Location: Tomahawk, Wisconsin | Count me in this year Slamr!! 15 more teams!!!! How about TEAM JONESI!! |
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| i'll have a team...fishing out of Muskydr's old boat! how much will it sting when your old rig takes you down? |
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Posts: 686
Location: Tomahawk, Wisconsin | Hey Lambeau that boat that you bought has an autopilot feature to take you to all the old hotspots, no fair!!!!!!!:( I hope everything that you are doing to her is going well, I am so glad that you bought that boat and are giving it the tlc that she deserves!! Did I mention that on matchfishing days I will be going up to Jim Pecks and throwing topraiders across their musky pond??? Cheers, Dave J |
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Posts: 391
| Count me in! It was awesome doing it the first year and I love the idea of going up against all the great sticks from this board to see if I can put it together as well as they can, or maybe better. ha ha
Kly |
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Posts: 1430
Location: Eastern Ontario | My one and only question is: will an unbeaten team (1-0-1) lose to the team (1-1-0) they beat in the pool play?
Edited by Trophymuskie 2/24/2004 7:07 AM
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Posts: 7039
Location: Northwest Chicago Burbs | Richard, do I need to explain to you points again and how its the number of WINS that counts? You LOST because you tied Worrall in the number of wins, but lost in points. Considering the fact that its a free tournament that you did nothing to help set up or run, you have a real issue with the fact that I didn't give you a win when you lost according to the rules. |
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Posts: 3240
Location: Racine, Wi | Count me in. If for nothing else, but to hold the rod for the cripple wristed one. (that sounds bad) Hopefully we can stick a fish or 8. heh heh heh. |
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Posts: 2089
| I'm in!!!I'll talk w/ the Doc(MuskyDr) and see what we can work out. Steve |
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Posts: 1310
Location: Washington, PA | I'm in, I'm not concerned about winning, but I WILL break the two year matchfishing fishless streak! |
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Posts: 2384
Location: On the X that marks the mucky spot | I'm in. I just need a partner. |
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Posts: 2753
Location: Mauston, Wisconsin | The Muskie Maniac's will be back for round three. Have no clue who my partner will be as of yet. But that's not a problem, I just need a good netman - roflmao - wahoooooo fish on! Al Warner "All Water is Zalt Water" http://www.zaltnad.com |
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Posts: 1023
Location: Lafayette, IN | Count Jake and I in again this year. Team name will prabably change this year. I'm sure that will improve our luck!  |
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Posts: 536
Location: Brainerd Area | Team GNOGH is in and WILL catch a fish this year.
Duck and Cady
Better tell Cady he is fishing it again and im his partner.
He He
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Posts: 477
Location: Iowa | Hey ChadG, remember agreeing we would skip out this year? What do you say? I think we learned a good lesson last year, I'd hate to miss out on another one. I will also need all the excuses I can think of to get out this year. |
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Posts: 1310
Location: Washington, PA | Talked to the Slamster last night, this year is shaping up to be bigger and better than last years event. The competition, the controversy, you can buy the whole seat but you'll only need the edge, TELL YOUR FRIENDS! |
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Posts: 440
| Your on. Count the Hawkeye Hookers in. |
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Posts: 1764
Location: Ogden, Ut | Slamr,
In case you haven't read my reply in th MatchFishing forum, I'm in...
K. |
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Location: Athens, Ohio | I'm thinking about getting in on this for this year, but first I need some assurances from MuskieFirst that this contest will be conducted in a sportsmanlike fashion. That said, Slamr, I think you owe Richard an apology. In your words this week: "Overt negativity lands posts in the hall of shame, always has, always will." I hope this applies to everyone. No excuse for going off like that and then leaving the post.
I would appreciate seeing a list of the rules, since I didn't pay too much attention to it last year. thanks, m
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| last year's rules are available at the top of this thread.
has there been any consideration to doing points hockey-style? ie., 2pts for a win, 1pt for a tie, 0pts for a loss. it's an accepted standard in wide use, and it gives credit to a team for not losing. this might create some other odd tie situations condsidering the limited number of matches such as a team that is 0-0-2 tied with a team that is 1-1-0, but you can always continue to use the MI points system to break ties if that occurs.
in any "sport" it never matters who you won/lost to unless your records are exactly equal. in the case of 1-1-0 vs 1-0-1, the team with the tie would advance (hockey style) due to having a better record, not due to beating them head-to-head.
mind you, this is not how it was done last year, and the rules were very clear about this ("a tie is equal to a loss basically"). so, i don't see it being real productive to carp about last year, but i could see changing the scoring this year as making it more equitable. |
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Posts: 32886
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | If no fish are caught by either team during a match fishing contest, that is a 'no points' situation, not a tie. That has to be scored as a loss. That's why the use of points MI style. The idea is that if one catches a fish or more in a match fishing event, but the other team beats them that day by catching a larger fish or more fish, the team who wins that day AND the losing team still accumulates points. Had the Walking Bulls not consistently caught fish we would have been eliminated by a team with an equal record of 1-1-0.
After all, this IS muskie fishing. Points need to be awarded for putting a fish in the net. If at the end of a pool a team has 100 points generated by catching fish in two rounds, and another has 121 by catching fish in three, who had a better round? The concept of a tie with a 'no fish round'is different here than it would be in other sports. A no fish tie should be and is considered a loss.
It is conceivable that a team could stay home and not fish at all, yet advance if given points for a 0-0 no fish tie. |
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Posts: 1310
Location: Washington, PA | The rules will be updated this year, and if you look at the matchfishing forum, there is a post there about options for matchfishing. Slamr is usually pretty good about taking ideas, trust me. Mikie, you definately should get in on this, it's a lot of fun, and I never even caught a fish during it, still had a blast. |
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| it's understandable that having a fishless team advance is undesirable.
however, is the system really MATCH fishing? it seems to emphasize catching more/bigger fish than all the other teams in your pool over having a better record in head-to-head competition.
in true head-to-head match play who did better/worse? the 1-1-0 team or the 1-0-1 team? they both caught fish to win one match; but one team managed to lose a match whereas the other team avoided losing a match. if it's "match" play, that should count more than the points earned by the fish they used to win their one match - a win is a win no matter if it's a blowout or a close one...
again, i'm completely comfortable have a point fishing pool competition, it's just not really match fishing then.
alternately i propose the following as priorities for tie-breakers:
1) any team willing to fish exclusively with Pigs
2) anyone willing to fish in the pond at Cabela's
3) team catching fish on any lure costing less than $5
4) team with most M1st posts
5) any other suggestions??? |
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Posts: 32886
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | 'in true head-to-head match play who did better/worse? the 1-1-0 team or the 1-0-1 team? they both caught fish to win one match; but one team managed to lose a match whereas the other team avoided losing a match. if it's "match" play, that should count more than the points earned by the fish they used to win their one match - a win is a win no matter if it's a blowout or a close one...'
This has been answered several times. A no fish day is a LOSS for both teams, so if you have two wins and a loss, that's that. No one can 'win' or 'tie' a match without putting a fish in the net, because the teams are not able to use direct contact or skills to keep their opponent from scoring. There is no defense or offense, no no-hitter pitched or unbelievable defensive play at the wall. The difference is we are actually competing with the fish as much as the other team, with all the variables including weather.
By the way, Team Walking Bulls is in. |
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Posts: 7039
Location: Northwest Chicago Burbs | We (me and the others who helped set up the rules) did run scenarios of points for wins and ties, but being that a tie in matchfishing is nearly always a double blank (in two years we have yet to have an instance where a tie was 2 teams catching the same number of MI points), we felt that a tie is basically worthless. We are working to improve the rules for this year, and this issue will be discussed, but regardless of future considerations, the rules from last year governed last years tourney.
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| good points.
it's fishing, not a team-on-team sport. more of a head-to-head-to-fish sort of thing.
you've convinced me at least: in fishing, a double blank is really a double loss, and should be treated that way. if you want to move on - catch a fish, eh? maybe some implications on strategy are to be found in that...time to look for a numbers lake.
it's unfortunate that it's probably unavoidable that you'll run into situations like you had last year - thus the wisdom of having rules that were very explicit and covered the situation like you did. good job thinking that through... |
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Posts: 827
Location: Minneapolis,Minnesota | I'm in!
Just need a partner....Treats? Fish on? Plitzz? EEeee? |
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Posts: 7039
Location: Northwest Chicago Burbs | Remember guys, we are going to need 16 new teams this year to fill a 48 team field, so not only do we need everybody back from last year, but we need all of you to be recruiting your buddies in!
And TrophyMuskie, angry about last year or not, I still want a shot at taking you out this year!
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Posts: 1996
Location: Pelican Lake/Three Lakes Chain | Count me in!! I want a shot at redemption against Ralphie and Joe. I'm taking off the gloves this year and swinging hard!! |
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Posts: 724
Location: Southern W.Va. | Team Mauser: Mike Moschell & C.J.Cantley
ready to fish March 1, 2004
Mauser |
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Posts: 492
Location: Lindenhurst, Illinois | Le Bowl De Toilet Flyers are in. |
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Posts: 827
Location: Minneapolis,Minnesota | Team CTR is in! |
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Posts: 5874
| Better make that 17 new teams, Slamr. Unfortunately, I just looked at my schedule for the year, and have, on average, only one free weekend for the summer. As hard as it was to arrange to fish the same day as the oppenent was last year, I have little hope of ever getting it arranged with my schedule this year.
Good luck to all teams. My money is on Nwild! He's hungry! |
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Posts: 600
Location: West Bend, WI | In.....(need partner) |
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Posts: 1430
Location: Eastern Ontario | I believe the idea on match fishing is to have teams face off one on one at the same time and anywhere. When it comes to pool play all teams in the pool should be playing one another and have a clear winner but that did not happen and you decided to have a system where team A can lose to team B in pool play and team A moves ahead and team B does not which is totally bogus. I have yet to see any kind of a sport where a losing team moves on and the winning team goes home. Why not just have a lotterie and draw the winners then it would be the same. The idea of totaling the points from previous matches is a bad one, we have set rules to matchfishing on the same day so that anglers get somewhat the same conditions ect ect. This is not a long season of many matches where you can take points to break a tie this was a 2 event of one on one fishing and a losing team moved on over the team that defeated them. Slamr can say whatever he wants it was a big flaw and I hope for everyone that will participate this year that the rules are set for winners to advance and losers do not. This Matchfishing thing was set up for everyone to have fun and not emfasized so much on competition but there has to be a clear winner and a clear loser in any kind of sport. Hey I can say I went undefeated in 03, time restraints will decide if I will join in 04 and keep my streak going for one more year. |
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Posts: 32886
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | OK, let's say a team from Illinois and another from Colorado face off on a Saturday. The Illinois team catches NOTHING. The Colorado team catches NOTHING. The other teams fishing that Saturday all catch fish. How is the zero zero match to be scored? The goal of any team headed out to the water is to put a fish in the net. A double blank is NOT a tie, it is a loss for both teams. If there has to be a clear winner in every round, then the double blank HAS to be scored as a loss or there has to be a rematch. I believe the rematch idea was rejected because it was accurately decided the teams would get too far behind, or have to forfeit because of time issues.
Obviously,in every fishing event I have ever scored or attended points from inches or pounds decide who wins. Let's say during a round two teams have a zero-zero day, and another team has had a day with three fish. Unfortunately for them, their opponent caught three as well, and got a higher point score. They scored a loss despite the three fish day. Are you saying the zero-zero teams potentially advance over the three fish team?
The issue here is how to score a double blank. I can't see it as a point scored in any way, because NO fish were caught. Rules group, is there ANY other way to score a double blank other than command a rematch or score it as a loss? I feel that a rematch isn't right either. Everyone gets their day on the water, if one catches nothing, one loses. A rematch gives both the zero-zero teams TWO days to catch a fish. |
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Posts: 267
Location: Lake City,Pa. | If this is the sign up, count the C.C.Riders in. |
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Posts: 1430
Location: Eastern Ontario | Then Steve lets not call it match fishing and change the name to something else. One goes out there with the intention of defeating the other team, if one thinks one fish is enough then they may quit early and go do other things but if it is not a match fishing event but a points thing anglers would be smarter to stay out there as many hours as possible just in case the next event day sucks. This would mean that top 4 teams would advance and not top team in each pool. Like you said what if the 3 fish guys were to lose to both teams in their pool play then the other 3 pools never had a 3 fish total they should move on. This is like telling Tiger Woods after he wins is match play event today that he does not advance because another golfer who lost is match had a better score then he did. You can't have both, is it score or it is one on one match? |
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Posts: 158
Location: Eagan, MN | I'll throw my hat into the ring. None of my friends are serious muskie fisherman, so if anyone in the Twin Cities area needs a partner let me know. It would be good to get out w/ some other muskie people. |
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Posts: 7039
Location: Northwest Chicago Burbs | It is matchfishing, and it will be called matchfishing as long as MuskieFIRST is running it. Two teams face off on a day, same day, fishing their butts off to beat another team. Thats what matchfishing was, and what it will be.
Bottom line, the rules were what the rules were, they were laid out a month before the competition began, and even before the signup was put out. Consensus among organizers, myself, participating members, and the owner of the website (who regardless of my desires for anything that I run will always have the final say so) is that a tie is a loss.
For next year I am assuming the rules will be the same in regard to this issue, being that "rematches" are difficult to schedule (I'm nervous already about asking the pool teams to do 3 matches in 2 months; not everyone fishes 75+ days a year) and a double blank is a double loss. Wins will be the only thing that counts, and a records tie to decide the advancing team out of pool play will still be based on points.
I personally hope that everyone who participated last year will participate again, however, the rules will be laid out before the sign up once again, and people are very free to choose whether or not they desire to get involved.
Richard I am sorry that you don't agree with the rules as they were laid out last year before the tourney started, but I do hope that you can find a way to participate again next year. For the sake of the viewing audience, can you please refrain from airing your feelings on this issue further on the board, and instead email, message, or call me (847/989-9271) so that we can discuss it more directly.
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Posts: 7039
Location: Northwest Chicago Burbs | One last thing on this issue, yes the goal of each team in matchfishing is to win, but the real purpose of doing it is for FUN. There is no money on the line, no money to enter, just fun and getting to be involved with fellow muskie fisherpeople (that was for you P&J) across the country. Let's not forget these things.
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MuskieFIRST MatchFISHING 2004