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| So what was the winning pattern on the Eagle chain ? I suspect open water as they crushed everyone else and that implies doing things WAY different than the rest of the field. |
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| Here is what they told the Rhinelander TV station, Channel 12:
"Really just hit break lines and try to cover a lot of water," said Tim Willems, co-champion.
Another priority for the team was using their resources effectively.
"Yeah we were using out electronics to find bait fish to spend it off the breaks, and we were casing rubber baits out that way," said Nolan Sprengeler, co-champion.
The tournament director was quoted as saying most fish were found in shallow weeds, but sounds like the winners were a little further out. |
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Posts: 82
Location: deep in the slop | There was a post on the fb from a guide in the area regarding his disapproval of how the electronics were used in this tourney. Will be interesting to see if there are any changes in the future. Is it still fishing to utilize tech like live scope and just drive around till you find a fish and cast at it? Kind of takes the fun out of fishing IMO. |
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | I can't see how a tournament can tell the angler what tech available to anyone they can use. Side imaging has been in use for years now. 360 too. I have all three now, and one still has to catch the fish. It's open to debate if it's 'fair', just like it was when paper graphs were introduced. One thing for sure, no one can uninvent this stuff. |
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| They said they looked for bait fish, you don't need 360 for that. I doubt many PMTT fishermen don't have SI. |
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| North of 8 - 6/29/2022 5:23 PM
They said they looked for bait fish, you don't need 360 for that. I doubt many PMTT fishermen don't have SI.
I thought the tech being discussed on the fb group was livescope. |
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| Ronix - 6/29/2022 4:37 PM
North of 8 - 6/29/2022 5:23 PM
They said they looked for bait fish, you don't need 360 for that. I doubt many PMTT fishermen don't have SI.
I thought the tech being discussed on the fb group was livescope.
I just went by what the winners told the local TV station. Their quote was that they used their electronics to find baitfish.
Edited by North of 8 6/29/2022 5:03 PM
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Location: SW Ohio | Not sure what they were targeting as they were pretty tight lipped about the pattern they found. But they utilized the quoted “$60k-70k” electronics on their boat very well. Upwards of 5 livescope transducers and as many as 7-8 graphs is what we heard. But I never got a chance to look at their boat. Some called it “sharpshooting”…. One competitor said they were working the same weed flat so I don’t think they were hitting open water too much. Weed growth seemed down from last year so they may have been targeting fish just outside the weed line.
Almost all baitfish we located we’re far offshore and at least 12-14’ down in over 14’ of water. Nothing shallower on any lake we fished. Mayflies started emerging on Thursday and most of the baitfish we saw were holding just above them. All we managed was a giant walleye and two mid-20s pike. Better than working by a long shot. |
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| OH Musky - 6/29/2022 8:20 PM
Not sure what they were targeting as they were pretty tight lipped about the pattern they found. But they utilized the quoted “$60k-70k” electronics on their boat very well. Upwards of 5 livescope transducers and as many as 7-8 graphs is what we heard. But I never got a chance to look at their boat. Some called it “sharpshooting”…. One competitor said they were working the same weed flat so I don’t think they were hitting open water too much. Weed growth seemed down from last year so they may have been targeting fish just outside the weed line.
Now that's absurd if true |
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Location: oswego, il | I was told 9 graphs. If true it will be a game changer as far as what teams will need to compete competitively Look at day 1 totals their lead was insurmountable.
Edited by ToddM 6/29/2022 8:47 PM
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| After hearing sworn testimony before congress that attorneys, working for the Trump campaign believed Italian satellites had somehow contacted voting machines to switch votes from Trump to Biden, I guess I wouldn't get too excited about a FB post.
I mean, those attorneys saw it on the internet too. |
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Posts: 68
| It will just make it so the blue collar guys on the tour can't compete and be the demise of yet another tournament circuit. Guys are already spending a great deal on entry fee, lodging, gas and food. Of the hand full of guys I know that fish it and have fished it, can't afford to spend 70K on electronics. I don't see why they can't outlaw certain electronics, they don't allow live bait or big trolling spreads. Unless it would be a sponsor issue.
Edited by cdubs 6/30/2022 8:54 AM
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Location: Vilas County, WI | Yes, the method they used is now commonly being called "Sharpshooting". And they indeed used their live imaging to cruise around, locate fish, then put a bait in the face of said fish. If it eats great, if not, move on. They also lost 3 additional fish, which would have put their total at 13.
But they weren't the only ones sharpshooting either. They just had the most success of the boats doing it.
They run 4 screens at the console, 2 at the bow, 1 in back for a total of 7 on their boat. All Garmins.
So if you're a tourney fisherman, and want to compete, that's the future unfortunately. My tournament days are numbered because 1.) I can't afford all those electronics. and 2.) I can't afford to donate money to the purse when I know I'm behind the 8-Ball from word go. |
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | TheShow - 6/30/2022 8:55 AM
Yes, the method they used is now commonly being called "Sharpshooting". And they indeed used their live imaging to cruise around, locate fish, then put a bait in the face of said fish. If it eats great, if not, move on. They also lost 3 additional fish, which would have put their total at 13.
But they weren't the only ones sharpshooting either. They just had the most success of the boats doing it.
They run 4 screens at the console, 2 at the bow, 1 in back for a total of 7 on their boat. All Garmins.
So if you're a tourney fisherman, and want to compete, that's the future unfortunately. My tournament days are numbered because 1.) I can't afford all those electronics. and 2.) I can't afford to donate money to the purse when I know I'm behind the 8-Ball from word go.
Post of the week. |
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Posts: 1536
Location: Brighton CO. | The Chain is a very busy place for one. It's a place if you beat the shorelines and fish man made structure (boat houses, docks ECT) you'll catch fish. A friend and guide the late Art Anderson caught and released the same tagged Muskie nine times off the same piece of structure. The Chain is known as action water, but I do know a guide who has caught a rare big fish (for the Chain) by fishing deeper then the average guy. The debate over electronics has been going strong for 30 plus years. Muskies don't like to be fished for with all the tools they don't get let alone very much. The fish are tuned in to what we are doing! Does this affect how they feed? How hard they are to catch ? |
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Location: SE, WI. | Musky fishing , or fishing in general, has gotten to be like playing Video Games…..WEE Fishing….;) Of course they were fishing around baitfish…..how often you find Mr. musky NoT around bait! I heard from a couple teams as to how they used Panoptix to locate and cast to fish. Good for them! I would not classify food as an expense……We Have To Eat;) tourney or Not! This is the WAY of many guided trips today. Drive around …..look for a Musky…..then cast to It. It’s really taking away the element of surprise Out of The Sport. I WON’T do it! I put around 140-200 skis in the boat per season , without the gadgets . I’m fine with That! JD
Edited by jdsplasher 6/30/2022 12:25 PM
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| I wonder where the $60-70 thousand number comes from. Looking on Garmin site, a live scope with transducer, 9" screen is $3,000. 5 of those would be $15,000. Add in $5 grand for accessories. A lot of money, but nowhere near that figure. At one time that would have been incredible, but when folks are dropping six figures on fishing boats, maybe not so much anymore.
The whole concept is interesting but wonder if it is repeatable? |
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Posts: 88
Location: Des Plaines, IL | Only the Amish should be allowed to build houses. Power tools are for cheaters.
Personally I chose to get a cheaper aluminum boat and expensive electronics. Some go the opposite way. Livescope has really helped me, as someone who only gets to fish a couple dozen days a year. Since getting it a few years ago I've doubled my catch rate. Some of that is improvement in other skills, but there are times you clearly identify a fish and it's easier to catch them when you are throwing your bait where they actually are.
What I can say for sure is, I still don't catch them like the people who have more experience and better technique with baits. Now you get those people with these systems, yeah, that's tough to compete against. But, as some said, good for them. |
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Location: Selkirk, Manitoba | PMTT champs and killers of the musky myth. Musky are not really hard to catch - they are - scratch that - were - hard to find. No more.
When you go hunting for big game (or otherwise) there is amply opportunities to cross the line into unethical territory or give oneself an unfair advantage. Those who are there to challenge themselves never cross that line, and often make it more difficult on themselves than lawfully allowed. Same goes with fishing....
Tournaments are competitions against other people, not pitting oneself against the fish, so the gloves come off as far as making catching the fish a challenge, just about trying to get ahead of the other competitors.
Loved reading the older timer books on chasing muskies, marlin and giant tuna and the sort of existential quests over decades of the folks involved. The River Monsters shows kind of brought a bit of that back. We now have drones and live imaging that are putting an end to the "hard to find" aspect of these quests.
Edited by Angling Oracle 6/30/2022 1:48 PM
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| dbach17 - 6/30/2022 12:36 PM
Only the Amish should be allowed to build houses. Power tools are for cheaters.
Personally I chose to get a cheaper aluminum boat and expensive electronics. Some go the opposite way. Livescope has really helped me, as someone who only gets to fish a couple dozen days a year. Since getting it a few years ago I've doubled my catch rate. Some of that is improvement in other skills, but there are times you clearly identify a fish and it's easier to catch them when you are throwing your bait where they actually are.
What I can say for sure is, I still don't catch them like the people who have more experience and better technique with baits. Now you get those people with these systems, yeah, that's tough to compete against. But, as some said, good for them.
The Amish, depending on their community, do use power tools. My brother in-law has hired them several times to re-hab the century old bard and granary on his retirement property. They understand and are sensitive to old time construction methods, but I know when they put up the metal siding, they used power tools, a self propelled all terrain lift, etc. But, they don't have cars so they needed a ride.
When they got done, his barn and granary are straight and strong. Ready for another hundred years. The guy that did the barn looked at the massive pegged tenon beams, smiled and said, "oh, yeah" . |
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Location: MN | I have a livescope. I bought it for ice fishing. I bought a pole for the boat but I’ve only used it to find weeds and to fish for other types of fish prior to musky season. Driving around staring at the graph until you find a musky to cast at looks so boring to me. I think that’d take most of the enjoyment out of it. Lots of guys do it with good success on a lake I fish on but I can’t get myself to do it.
Imagine paying for a guide and only taking a few dozen casts or less all day. I gotta imagine there are lots of people who have been pretty disappointed finding out they hired a livescope guide.
Honestly sometimes it is disheartening to have it for ice fishing. I’ve gone to lakes and never dropped down a line. I suppose I saved some time but it does take a lot of the mystery and surprise out of fishing. |
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Location: oswego, il | North of 8 - 6/30/2022 2:13 PM
dbach17 - 6/30/2022 12:36 PM
Only the Amish should be allowed to build houses. Power tools are for cheaters.
Personally I chose to get a cheaper aluminum boat and expensive electronics. Some go the opposite way. Livescope has really helped me, as someone who only gets to fish a couple dozen days a year. Since getting it a few years ago I've doubled my catch rate. Some of that is improvement in other skills, but there are times you clearly identify a fish and it's easier to catch them when you are throwing your bait where they actually are.
What I can say for sure is, I still don't catch them like the people who have more experience and better technique with baits. Now you get those people with these systems, yeah, that's tough to compete against. But, as some said, good for them.
The Amish, depending on their community, do use power tools. My brother in-law has hired them several times to re-hab the century old bard and granary on his retirement property. They understand and are sensitive to old time construction methods, but I know when they put up the metal siding, they used power tools, a self propelled all terrain lift, etc. But, they don't have cars so they needed a ride.
When they got done, his barn and granary are straight and strong. Ready for another hundred years. The guy that did the barn looked at the massive pegged tenon beams, smiled and said, "oh, yeah" .
I'd much rather have an Amish built home than the cheap garbage homes being built today. |
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| In a time when the amount of screen time is a hot topic maybe fishing could use a little less also , lest we have forgotten why we go in the first place ????? |
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| Good thing they won over $23,000 to pay for all those gadgets... Fish how you like and where you like. It's fishing, not tournaments. |
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Location: NW WI | Cheap garbage home? Amish quality? Scopes? No Scopes? Electronics? No electronics?
Oh Please.
1. Have you been to a Hardware in the last 2 years? Ain't nothing cheap about it, and waaay more folks are building bigger than ever up here.
2. Amish quality, well sorry that's just a prejudiced statement. I've worked with 5 different communities. And they're no different than any modern builder. Some need to stick to furniture making, others are decent. I will say though the small singular items they make like cabinets,chairs,tables are all A+. But anything with tight tolerance levels or forward planning required seems to surpass em, basic building items like squares, levels, plumbobs, straight lines, measuring tapes aren't used much. They're all about astetics of their specific role without a care for the bigger picture. And yes they can use power tools, just can't own them. Some even "have" workshops like any other outfit would.
3. Didn't we all just whine about this subject a few months back? Electronics are here to stay. Hold yourself to your own moral standard. No different than some of us choosing not to troll or use live bait. I'm not going to knock the guys that do or do not, I choose my standard for me and thats it. If you don't wanna play ball with em, than don't. But to enter the game and whine because you lost even though you knew what you could be competing against is ridiculous. That being said, banning is not the answer. Classing is.
Edited by 7.62xJay 6/30/2022 10:15 PM
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| I wouldn't call it whining at all. I don't think most of the guys talking here were even in the tournament. It's just great discussion!
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| Well this has taken a turn and has a life of it's own. I have a few thoughts on the subject to throw out:
Competition history in sport is usually about pushing limits and applying new tech when that can help the participants. Generally that filters down to the masses over time. Fishing competitions have been no different with many new innovations in gear and technique developed/introduced during competitive events. Certainly limits have also been applied as new tech in almost all sporting events has changed the game...Aluminum bats, hotter golf balls, lighter auto parts, steroids, faster boats etc etc etc. As a competitor one should generally be pushing these (allowed) limits IF the driving desire is to finish on top. Organizations may/can/do eventually limit some tech or break things down into different classes to ensure a competitive playing field of different levels or may ban some innovations altogether to create a level playing field between a group of contestants. As individuals simply pursuing a sport there is always going to be a personal balance achieved that could involve budgets, desire to participate in a certain manner and a host of other factors. So what is considered right by one person may be viewed as unethical or just silly by another...for example scopes on high tech black powder rifles...crossbows and other tools used in hunting that change the pursuit and success ratios of that sport all have their detractors and endorsers.
IMO tournament fishing is different than just going fishing and if the stakes are high enough you NEED to push the envelopes of tactics and tech to get winning results. You may end up doing things that really are not "fun" if you want to win....I call it "fishing ugly" which to me means applying tactics that just get it done vs being fun to do. If the stakes are low then by all means you can fish in whatever style suits you from an entertainment standpoint and if you do well so be it, if not you did it your way and be happy doing that. That said if big money is on the line it makes sense to take advantage of everything you can to win (within the rules of course).
Sharp Shooting per say does not interest me much when fishing recreationally BUT if I was fishing big money events that allowed that aspect of the sport I would certainly feel handicapped if I didn't have that card in my arsenal to play. Right now that is an aspect of the sport that is evolving and also showing itself to be a bit of a controversy in the sport. I have friends that have been fishing that way up on the big V for half a dozen years now and they do well. It's just not that appealing to me...they love it, playing a video game of sorts. Guiding in that fashion is another subject...again not for me but if there is good communication between client and guide about the plans for the day and everyone is on board why not. That comes down to good communication between parties on both sides to eliminate potential disappointment which is a whole nother subject re: guiding and hiring one though.
In the end it's the individuals choice how to play the game ( again within the rules or regulations) when we go out. Different strokes for different folks but don't take your eye off of the competition scene because many new innovations spring from the minds of those at the top and some of those things can enhance how you enjoy your version of the sport and help you gain a level of success that you may not have otherwise achieved.
Edited by bturg 7/1/2022 9:23 AM
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | What bturg said.
I live in the tech world and love tinkering, even had a couple of concepts turned into new products over the years. My first sonar as a kid was a Heathkit my Uncle John built for me. OFM pioneered live streaming tournaments and events (we were the first), GPS tracking boats (first again), and live-streamed (wirecast by Sour Squirrel Studios) to an Apple device when it was supposed to be not possible. I hand-built the first big-screen portable HD underwater camera. I tested a successful live stream using 4 cameras, three underwater and one above with a Black Magic switcher last winter. It actually worked from a flip-over shelter. We'll be doing that with MarCums this coming year. I'm always searching out tech that speeds up my content creation work. I've always owned the new stuff, and most of the time it was worth the expense.
Almost every innovation in the fishing electronics category has stirred controversy, and here we are again. Purists will be upset, and new purists will evolve from the new tech. Adjustments may be made in management, at least I hope so. Assuming that, I am all-in, and quite aware of the controversy.
Those are crappies and bluegills on a crib we found on the Mega 360 on the Humminbird Mega Live Imaging. The smaller crappies were suspended to the front of the crib about 5' from the boat, and the larger were down inside. The first drop I made I put in front of the largest mark, and it came up and smoked the jig. I was impressed. My Mega Live unit showed up on the front porch today, I just hooked t up and adjusted it on the network.
Oh yeah, one last point. I shoot a Barnett crossbow, scoped. It's impressive. My right shoulder is shot from muskie fishing, so a compound and I don't get along. I had to get a permit originally with a Doc's statement, now anyone can choose (and pay) to hunt with one here.
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| sworrall - 7/1/2022 9:46 AM
What bturg said.
I live in the tech world and love tinkering, even had a couple of concepts turned into new products over the years. My first sonar as a kid was a Heathkit my Uncle John built for me. OFM pioneered live streaming tournaments and events (we were the first), GPS tracking boats (first again), and live-streamed (wirecast by Sour Squirrel Studios) to an Apple device when it was supposed to be not possible. I hand-built the first big-screen HD underwater camera. I tested a successful live stream using 4 cameras, three underwater and one above with a Black Magic switcher last winter. It actually worked from a flip-over shelter. We'll be doing that with MarCums this coming year. I'm always searching out tech that speeds up my content creation work. I've always owned the new stuff, and most of the time it was worth the expense.
Almost every innovation in the fishing electronics category has stirred controversy, and here we are again. Purists will be upset, and new purists will evolve from the new tech. Adjustments may be made in management, at least I hope so. Assuming that, I am all-in, and quite aware of the controversy.
"Sour Squirrel Studios". Ok, that has to be one of the greatest media names ever! |
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | North of 8 - 7/1/2022 9:48 AM
sworrall - 7/1/2022 9:46 AM
What bturg said.
I live in the tech world and love tinkering, even had a couple of concepts turned into new products over the years. My first sonar as a kid was a Heathkit my Uncle John built for me. OFM pioneered live streaming tournaments and events (we were the first), GPS tracking boats (first again), and live-streamed (wirecast by Sour Squirrel Studios) to an Apple device when it was supposed to be not possible. I hand-built the first big-screen HD underwater camera. (burned up a couple in the process, i am not as good with wiring as I should be)
I tested a successful live stream using 4 cameras, three underwater and one above with a Black Magic switcher last winter. It actually worked from a flip-over shelter, deploying an annoying amount of HDMI cable. We'll be doing that with MarCums this coming year, and sometime soon will live stream the 'Birds and some fish catching from the Lund multi-camera. I'm always searching out tech that speeds up my content creation work or allows for cooler stuff to be done. I've always owned the new stuff, and most of the time it was worth the expense.
Almost every innovation in the fishing electronics category has stirred controversy, and here we are again. Purists will be upset, and new purists will evolve from the new tech. Adjustments may be made in fisheries management, at least I hope so. Assuming that, I am all-in, and quite aware of the controversy.
"Sour Squirrel Studios". Ok, that has to be one of the greatest media names ever!
Yup, Dusty moved on from there to producing The Next Bite. Not sure what he's up to now but it'll be cutting edge, one of the most brilliant people I have ever met. It was during an Anglers Insight Marketing event Zach and Carlos figured out the stream-to-an-iPad or phone deal with Dusty working his magic on his overclocked Apple. When those three started talking together cool things happened. Zach designed the map overlay for GPS tracking adjusted for the curvature of the Earth on the fly. I took pictures, shot/edited video, and wrote PR stuff, all ridiculously easy stuff compared to their work. |
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Location: Brighton CO. | My dad was an electrical engineer in the space/defense industry and he would laugh was butt off every time there was a war and we would blow up inferior Russian crap! |
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Posts: 1536
Location: Brighton CO. | Thousands of dollars in Electronics?
No printed musky Hunter?
No Ernie's or Bobbie bait's?
The looks I get when I try to rent a boat with oars?
Just call me Dinosaurski Chuck! |
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Posts: 414
Location: SW Ohio | I and my partner fished the Eagle River tournament and I posted above on what I "knew" about the controversial electronics subject. I did not whine or espouse a dislike for the winning pattern. We were very surprised about the outcome as normally a one or two fish deficit after the first day is not insurmountable. But after seeing the top score after day one, we discussed whether to continue. I'm 62, my partner mid-40's, and we said "let's go". One tourney does not make a season. While we hit every pattern that should work at ER, we ended with a huge walleye and a couple medium pike. It is the championship we are looking toward because it gets us on the lakes we've never fished before. Not to mention it gets us away from work one more time. I've been contemplating spending $$$$ on a livescope, and if this last weekend doesn't convince me, nothing will. I "see" musky on my SI all the time on my home waters but I can't imagine being able to do what those guys did in one day. My best week is 12 on, 8 in the net. To be honest, I can't say that I don't feel that that the electronics on their boat gave them an advantage but I can't say it was unfair. Would you take a stock Mustang, Chevy or Toyota to a NASCAR or NHRA race and expect to win? The hardest part is swallowing the cost for entry fees we seeing squandered, fuel and lodging. We'll finish out the season (hopefully in WI in Sept) and go from there.
chuckski - 7/1/2022 4:44 PM
Thousands of dollars in Electronics?
No printed musky Hunter?
No Ernie's or Bobbie bait's?
The looks I get when I try to rent a boat with oars?
Just call me Dinosaurski Chuck!
The MH change was a shock. i know both Gregg and Tony personally as do many of us, and I have to give them the benefit of the doubt on this. Costs have gone up across the board. I hope they are able to get back to a paper standard as I have an extreme dislike (hate is a bit strong) for reading magazines on my phone. As my membership extends out a couple years, I don't have a choice at this point. I wish them the best of luck in this turbulent commercial environment. |
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Location: Northern Illinois | Who's catching the fish, the electronics or the fisherman? Why don't we lower our kids' basketball hoops to 8ft and go out in the driveway and start dunking? Is it really more fun though? That's part of the adventure or mystique about musky fishing, how hard it is to hunt them, not find them on closed circuit tv and scoop them up in the net.
I often wonder if some technology is a good thing. When I was a kid, in the summer, I was in the house for 8 1/2 hours a day - 8 hours sleeping and 10 mins woofing down each meal to get right back out. Now, everyone's in front of a computer screen all day.
I'm sorry, but if they found those fish on live view - I don't think they won that tournament. Can't use a graphing calculator on a Calculus test. What's next, put a chip or tag on them and go directly to them using a beacon? Probably depth/contour, GPS, and some form of bait indication, is as far as they should allow in a tournament. I think the live view thing has gone too far for catching (fine for knowledge and learning).
Edited by mm3 7/1/2022 11:18 PM
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| Finding fish is one thing, getting them to eat is another. One of the best examples I experienced was about 10 years ago. I was getting my boat read to go fishing at my then cottage and saw a guy 2 docks down casting over and over with a purpose. After a bit he called over, said there had been a musky off their dock but couldn't get it to hit. He said it was headed my way. I picked up a rod with a brass bladed bucktail on it and sure enough, an upper 30s musky appeared about 20 feet away, just below the surface. I cast well past, brought it in front of its face. Over and over again, varying speeds and distance from the fish. Virtually no reaction. Finally, it slowly moved to the side and down out of sight. I picked up a rod with a top raider and cast that. On about the 4th or 5th cast it followed and started to look interested, but just as I started the figure 8 from the dock, it veered away never to be seen again. Two of us saw it, cast different lures, different presentations, nada. |
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Posts: 65
| It’s not against the rules. Would it be nice if we all had a lever playing field. Yes. But you are also fishing the professional musky tournament trail. Not like you can bring your old dirt track car to nascar and expect them to limit down for you. Unfortunately until they put a cap on it it’s how it is. And will they? Yes. And like everything else in this world we all will pay the price for a unsportsmanlike greedy act. Some guy at works cuts his finger and what happens to the rest of us? Everyone is punished and new ways to prevent it are in place. There will always be people pushing the edge when that kinda money is on the line. One of the reasons I got out of bass tournaments is the competitive attitude of people. It’s fishing. It’s fun. Until it’s for 20k. And you spent a thousand in gas and lodging and entry fee. Than it’s cutthroat. If you want to have fun and fish a tournament fish stuff like the Charlie baker. The Worral memorial. The greater Wisconsin musky tournament. Fish and have fun. But just wait to see how this effects things next year. It’s a trickle effect. And now we all shall pay for it. |
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Location: deephaven mn | They crushed the field. I like the fact that 5 of their 10 were over 40. Next best team only had 2 over 40.
People throw rocks at that rocks at the ones who out do them. Instead of dong that we should try and learn from them.
That it is what Turg's question was all about. How did they do it. Livescope is a tool being used in tournaments of all species.
Do you have to have it to catch fish, no but it can help. We will see electronocs continuing to evolve. Before long the image will be a live HD quality movie picture. There is allready some amazing footage being filmed. Its just amatter of getting it cost efffective so they can sell the equipment to the custermers. It's coming. |
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| Congratulations to the winning team! Sounds like they did so well, others feel then to complain about them. When its legal and others are upset, usually means you had a good day on the water. Livescope, 360 and many other electronics are tools as I see them, helpful but you still have to get the fish to eat. Everyone musky fishing knows that in itself is not usually easy. I would be willing to bet every boat fishing the PMTT has some form of fish finder and used them. What is the difference?
Yes I have livescope, have I caught fish because of it yes. But more than anything it is a tool that has helped me learn how to be a better fisherman. |
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Location: Northern Illinois | Why do we need a livescope for fishing for muskies? |
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| mm3 - 7/3/2022 12:50 PM
Why do we need a livescope for fishing for muskies?
Same reason you would need any of the other electronics on your boat. Most of us probably didn’t really need the last 10 musky lures we bought but, we got them on the hopes they would help us catch more musky. I don’t really “need” a musky net but I have one, and it sure helps.
I have learned a lot with my livescope, how my lures run, sink rate, what type of twitch, rip ect gets a reaction from them and what don’t. One of the best things I have learn with livescope to date is, I need to slow down more often with my retrieve on a lot of baits and I fish too shallow more than I should.
Edited by OH Muskyman 7/3/2022 2:00 PM
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| It's interesting to see the upheaval this subject is having on the Tourney scene and indirectly/also in general fishing discussion.
I had no idea there was any controversy brewing when I asked the question BUT was pretty sure that was how they won after seeing the results. Like any new tech somebody is going to really dominate an event before the world takes notice...and now that has happened. I think the impact potential for Musky Tourney fishing has just been shown. I also think that if allowed to continue on a tourney level it will eventually have less impact as more adopt it and results diminish as a result. Bass and walleye guys on the large tourney scene have already dealt with the issue of it's use but still some events really favor it's use and in some others an old timer using old tech flipping bushes(bass) or trolling know locations(walleye) wins without it.
The blowout at the PMTT was inevitable as only something truly new and really effective (not just the use it of but also maxing it out with many screens etc) like this technique could create enough advantage to widen the gap from that much. The angler's also played a key role by accurately interpreting what they were seeing and executing on catching part. Whatever happens going forward they will have had a pivotal role with the verdict either way by simply executing on the whole process rather well in the event....if they had won by ten points no one notices.
I don't have a horse in the race on how PMTT and others deal with the issue as I am just an observer... but I do think it will be interesting to see how it plays out and if they become the first significant player in any freshwater species (bass, walleye, crappie etc) tourney trail to regulate it's use on some level.
Edited by bturg 7/3/2022 11:58 PM
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| All these posts on this site with very few comments and people wanting to talk lakes, lures and muskie fishing. This post alone generated almost nothing until livescope was brought up. Time for yall to turn in your LakeMaster cards, to much pressure on off shore structure. Spot Lock, your fancy foot pedal trolling motor, follow the contour, side imaging, 360, SmartStrike, GPS. OMG GPS has changed fishing so much. Spent a lot of time on big lakes in the middle of the night that I pry would never go out on after dark. Have to drive past a lot of structure every trip because everyone knows where all the structure is now and every cut and turn on that structure. I know im not changing nothing and now im just as bad for promoting the controversy I get so sick of reading about. Anyways, Ill be out on the water not worried about the guy running live scope on the other side of the bay. |
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Location: Northern Illinois | My replies are strictly related to the livescope and regulation of technology for catching fish. At what point does this cross the line as an unfair advantage for the fisherman and having adverse effects on the fishery. Does everyone need more fish? Isn't it fun enough as it is?
There are regulations for lines in the water, unattended fishing, trolling and use of live bait. Will electronics be regulated? Can you send out a drone and have it map the lake while you're eating dinner? The electronics manufacturers are certainly not gonna stop.
At some point you'll be able to cruise the lake at full speed and have a pop up with a fish location that just crossed your pre-defined limit. A guy on a pontoon boat will know where the musky is just like the guide who spent 40 years learning its environment and habits. Where could the muskies hide anymore? Is that what people want - a muskie that can't hide?
What's the effects of this on the fish? Why does everything have to be more, more, more? |
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Location: Selkirk, Manitoba | mm3 - 7/4/2022 10:48 AM
My replies are strictly related to the livescope and regulation of technology for catching fish. At what point does this cross the line as an unfair advantage for the fisherman and having adverse effects on the fishery. Does everyone need more fish? Isn't it fun enough as it is?
There are regulations for lines in the water, unattended fishing, trolling and use of live bait. Will electronics be regulated? Can you send out a drone and have it map the lake while you're eating dinner? The electronics manufacturers are certainly not gonna stop.
At some point you'll be able to cruise the lake at full speed and have a pop up with a fish location that just crossed your pre-defined limit. A guy on a pontoon boat will know where the musky is just like the guide who spent 40 years learning its environment and habits. Where could the muskies hide anymore? Is that what people want - a muskie that can't hide?
What's the effects of this on the fish? Why does everything have to be more, more, more?
Great post.
What do we want? We know as individuals we want to catch more and most of us know we only have so many outings left in our lifetime - we might justify in our minds that some advantages in finding them is very welcome.
However, if we understand musky biology (particularly big naturally reproducing Ontario muskies) that the shallow part of their daily routine is not necessary where they are feeding, and that the open and sometimes deeper water scene is where they are more vulnerable, then we know that this new technology is leading to a negative outcome. There are not a lot of muskies. The pelagic muskies and the reef/point/rock/current muskies are the same fish. A minority of well-equipped individuals likely could really put a dent in the catch rate for everyone, not to mention whatever mortality or growth and reproduction effects it could have. Who knows what many well equipped and well informed individuals will do. The downward slide is just starting, but it will be a continued decline unless some consensus of what is best for the whole community is arrived at. Don't fool yourself that "the managers" will fix the issue. It needs to be addressed now at the stakeholder level. What do we want musky fishing to be?
One of my memorable fishing trips was to the Margaree on Cape Breton Island for Atlantic salmon. Public access on private land, maps of the named pools and runs, how to get there, signs. No keep, barbless flies only. The coolest part was the etiquette on fishing pools, with little benches to sit and wait a turn if someone fishing. Regular folks decided this is the way it is going to be, and so it came to be. Musky fishing can be the same. It might not be barring the technology, but it may come down to some other limitations to preserve some equity in availability or hooking effectiveness (ie like lake trout). The technology is only going to get better, and it will get a lot better, they are just dribbling it out to us now. If this is not your line where you think things need to change, then where is it?
Edited by Angling Oracle 7/4/2022 11:43 AM
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| Let's not all get our panties in a wad here. Keep in mind that it wasn't so long ago that muskies were shot or bonked over the head and wound up on the table. No, the fishing wasn't great as a result but they fish have continued to thrive. By and large, muskies are still a fish that relatively few anglers fish for and even fewer are successful at catching. In the hands of the right angler livescope and such will lead to more fish being caught. But how many of those guys are actually out there?
A huge part of muskie fishing is finding the fish. I'd say that anybody who has taken the time to learn baitfish movements, seasonal migration and the effects of water temperature along with fishing for them long enough to know where they position themselves in any given area already knows where they are. While you're out there staring at your screens they're out there putting a pattern together. And you still have to get them to eat, which a lot of guys aren't the best at...
My advice is to go fish how and where and with whatever makes you happy and don't worry about what the other guys are doing. If it bothers you that much, go fish where they aren't. Or go fish where nobody is. One of my best days on the water was one where I only saw two fish and only caught the smaller one, that was only 38". The number of boats I saw that day other than our own was 2 less than the number of fish we saw. We literally had the lake to ourselves. That's a great day right there. |
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Angling Oracle - 7/4/2022 11:41 AM
mm3 - 7/4/2022 10:48 AM
My replies are strictly related to the livescope and regulation of technology for catching fish. At what point does this cross the line as an unfair advantage for the fisherman and having adverse effects on the fishery. Does everyone need more fish? Isn't it fun enough as it is?
There are regulations for lines in the water, unattended fishing, trolling and use of live bait. Will electronics be regulated? Can you send out a drone and have it map the lake while you're eating dinner? The electronics manufacturers are certainly not gonna stop.
At some point you'll be able to cruise the lake at full speed and have a pop up with a fish location that just crossed your pre-defined limit. A guy on a pontoon boat will know where the musky is just like the guide who spent 40 years learning its environment and habits. Where could the muskies hide anymore? Is that what people want - a muskie that can't hide?
What's the effects of this on the fish? Why does everything have to be more, more, more?
Great post.
What do we want? We know as individuals we want to catch more and most of us know we only have so many outings left in our lifetime - we might justify in our minds that some advantages in finding them is very welcome.
However, if we understand musky biology (particularly big naturally reproducing Ontario muskies ) that the shallow part of their daily routine is not necessary where they are feeding, and that the open and sometimes deeper water scene is where they are more vulnerable, then we know that this new technology is leading to a negative outcome. There are not a lot of muskies. The pelagic muskies and the reef/point/rock/current muskies are the same fish. A minority of well-equipped individuals likely could really put a dent in the catch rate for everyone, not to mention whatever mortality or growth and reproduction effects it could have. Who knows what many well equipped and well informed individuals will do. The downward slide is just starting, but it will be a continued decline unless some consensus of what is best for the whole community is arrived at. Don't fool yourself that "the managers" will fix the issue. It needs to be addressed now at the stakeholder level. What do we want musky fishing to be?
One of my memorable fishing trips was to the Margaree on Cape Breton Island for Atlantic salmon. Public access on private land, maps of the named pools and runs, how to get there, signs. No keep, barbless flies only. The coolest part was the etiquette on fishing pools, with little benches to sit and wait a turn if someone fishing. Regular folks decided this is the way it is going to be, and so it came to be. Musky fishing can be the same. It might not be barring the technology, but it may come down to some other limitations to preserve some equity in availability or hooking effectiveness (ie like lake trout ). The technology is only going to get better, and it will get a lot better, they are just dribbling it out to us now. If this is not your line where you think things need to change, then where is it?
When I started muskie fishing, catch and keep was the deal and I killed a LOT of muskies. There were more fish killed back then on a June weekend on Peilcan Lake WI than there is now in a year. The boats are faster, engines run cleaner, tow vehicles run cleaner and more efficiently, reels last longer, nets are bigger and way easier on the fish, and CPR is now to the point where a lot of us won't even bump a fish anymore. We already (thanks to Muskies Inc) have made it nearly unheard of a muskie is kept. I think we'll be OK. |
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| sworrall - 7/4/2022 12:32 PM
Angling Oracle - 7/4/2022 11:41 AM
mm3 - 7/4/2022 10:48 AM
My replies are strictly related to the livescope and regulation of technology for catching fish. At what point does this cross the line as an unfair advantage for the fisherman and having adverse effects on the fishery. Does everyone need more fish? Isn't it fun enough as it is?
There are regulations for lines in the water, unattended fishing, trolling and use of live bait. Will electronics be regulated? Can you send out a drone and have it map the lake while you're eating dinner? The electronics manufacturers are certainly not gonna stop.
At some point you'll be able to cruise the lake at full speed and have a pop up with a fish location that just crossed your pre-defined limit. A guy on a pontoon boat will know where the musky is just like the guide who spent 40 years learning its environment and habits. Where could the muskies hide anymore? Is that what people want - a muskie that can't hide?
What's the effects of this on the fish? Why does everything have to be more, more, more?
Great post.
What do we want? We know as individuals we want to catch more and most of us know we only have so many outings left in our lifetime - we might justify in our minds that some advantages in finding them is very welcome.
However, if we understand musky biology (particularly big naturally reproducing Ontario muskies ) that the shallow part of their daily routine is not necessary where they are feeding, and that the open and sometimes deeper water scene is where they are more vulnerable, then we know that this new technology is leading to a negative outcome. There are not a lot of muskies. The pelagic muskies and the reef/point/rock/current muskies are the same fish. A minority of well-equipped individuals likely could really put a dent in the catch rate for everyone, not to mention whatever mortality or growth and reproduction effects it could have. Who knows what many well equipped and well informed individuals will do. The downward slide is just starting, but it will be a continued decline unless some consensus of what is best for the whole community is arrived at. Don't fool yourself that "the managers" will fix the issue. It needs to be addressed now at the stakeholder level. What do we want musky fishing to be?
One of my memorable fishing trips was to the Margaree on Cape Breton Island for Atlantic salmon. Public access on private land, maps of the named pools and runs, how to get there, signs. No keep, barbless flies only. The coolest part was the etiquette on fishing pools, with little benches to sit and wait a turn if someone fishing. Regular folks decided this is the way it is going to be, and so it came to be. Musky fishing can be the same. It might not be barring the technology, but it may come down to some other limitations to preserve some equity in availability or hooking effectiveness (ie like lake trout ). The technology is only going to get better, and it will get a lot better, they are just dribbling it out to us now. If this is not your line where you think things need to change, then where is it?
When I started muskie fishing, catch and keep was the deal and I killed a LOT of muskies. There were more fish killed back then on a June weekend on Peilcan Lake WI than there is now in a year. The boats are faster, engines run cleaner, tow vehicles run cleaner and more efficiently, reels last longer, nets are bigger and way easier on the fish, and CPR is now to the point where a lot of us won't even bump a fish anymore. We already (thanks to Muskies Inc ) have made it nearly unheard of a muskie is kept. I think we'll be OK.
Yep, when I started in the 70s', earnest discussions of best way to kill them. Some of the older guys were still moaning about not being able to use a pistol anymore. |
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Location: Selkirk, Manitoba | sworrall - 7/4/2022 12:32 PM
"When I started muskie fishing, catch and keep was the deal and I killed a LOT of muskies. There were more fish killed back then on a June weekend on Peilcan Lake WI than there is now in a year. The boats are faster, engines run cleaner, tow vehicles run cleaner and more efficiently, reels last longer, nets are bigger and way easier on the fish, and CPR is now to the point where a lot of us won't even bump a fish anymore. We already (thanks to Muskies Inc) have made it nearly unheard of a muskie is kept. I think we'll be OK."
You made my point. Some folks figured out and decided that bonking fish and short limits was a bad idea. Likewise they found they bonked so many and so much pressure that they needed to start stocking and stock new lakes to level out the pressure.
Up here so many big fish bonked that they closed fisheries down, reduced limits to zero and upped size limits. Most of the decisions were made too slowly and still recovering in some places - with mother nature also having some negative impacts.
I'm basically mostly concerned with our natural reproducing populations that from our perspective (concerned local muskie types) already get too much pressure (in non-Covid times) in discussions with lodge owners and well respected local guides. This pastime is growing fast here as much as down there and most folks are very well equipped and getting more so year by year. The open water pattern is known, but just left unexploited other than by the odd walleye pelagic trollers. That is changing.
Edited by Angling Oracle 7/4/2022 4:20 PM
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| I'm getting me one of those freshwater dolphins to go fetch me a musky. They use echolocation, which is basically livescope
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | 'You made my point. Some folks figured out and decided that bonking fish and short limits was a bad idea. Likewise they found they bonked so many and so much pressure that they needed to start stocking and stock new lakes to level out the pressure. '
Muskies Inc was the driving force here and most of our waters offered no native muskie population. A very large number of the muskie producers in the US are put and take and basically always have been. We still have lakes here with very low size limits due to the fact they are designed to be action put and take to a degree. All of that aside, I think we'll be OK.
It was inevitable the fisheries folks in Canada would move to a limit basically prohibiting harvest to adjust to the pressure and harvest up there. |
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Location: Contrarian Island | I agree with JDSplasher and others who actually like the challenge of 'the hunt'. Is driving around with Livescope even fishing? I'd say no. it is not. to me it is like driving around at night with a spotlight and then shooting a deer, or that is the closest analogy I could come up with. Yes, they still have to bite, I get it. but it is not what musky fishing is all about .. I mean really where is the challenge or skill in that? I won't necesarily knock guys for doing it, but are there catches less impressive? I'd say they are... I guess we know how the MN state record was caught last fall....
also, I think those who think that technology won't hurt fisheries are dead wrong. limits will have to be altered and imo more muskies will have to be stocked. Muskies use to be able to 'hide' somewhat in open water, that is no more. Delayed mortality is obviously a real thing well if more and more fish are getting caught by the use of that crap more will die, it's simple math... Now guys can and DO sit on top of 50 inchers 20 feet down jigging them until they bite, yes that is how some are getting caught. Big picture I honestly wish that technology was never invented. It will change the sport and not for the good. Period.
Edited by BNelson 7/5/2022 11:05 AM
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| I agree Brad, my 10 year old units give me what I'm looking for- GPS and depth under the boat...from there I'd rather put the pieces of the puzzle together myself. But times change, I know Brad you wouldn't fish without your GPS on big water...and I'm sure there were "middle-aged" fisherman complaining about that too when it came out.  ... I say enjoy the outdoors the way YOU (any of us) want to...I don't want or need state of the art electronics to go muskie fishing, that's just me though.
Edited by IAJustin 7/5/2022 11:48 AM
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Location: Contrarian Island | Gps is more about safety on big water. I caught just as many fish or more per season when I didnt have gps.
Edited by BNelson 7/5/2022 11:58 AM
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| BNelson - 7/5/2022 11:55 AM
I agree with JDSplasher and others who actually like the challenge of 'the hunt'. Is driving around with Livescope even fishing? I'd say no. it is not. to me it is like driving around at night with a spotlight and then shooting a deer, or that is the closest analogy I could come up with. Yes, they still have to bite, I get it. but it is not what musky fishing is all about .. I mean really where is the challenge or skill in that? I won't necesarily knock guys for doing it, but are there catches less impressive? I'd say they are... I guess we know how the MN state record was caught last fall....
This is besides the topic but yeah, I was thinking the same thing about that fish...very impressive fish but I now find myself underwhelmed (to put it politely) by the catch |
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| I don't have Mega Live or anything like that but after upgrading to an Ulterra last year, I know I will never have another unit without a spot lock function. In particular, I fish by myself most of the time and it is really nice to have the boat stay put. First fish I caught by myself, had a strong wind pushing me towards shore. No problem, soon as fish was in the net, hit spot lock and could focus on a nice clean release of fish, not whether I was going to get pushed up on some boulders. Having started out fishing in the 60s on boats with oars, I really appreciate the convenience and safety of today's boats/electronics. |
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Location: Chisholm, MN | I've kept out of the discussion for the most part but I'll state my opinion. Livescope is cool. I bought one this winter. I have yet to sharp shoot a musky with it, and I have tried. Seeing the fish in their environment is very eye opening. The method of sharp shooting is boring though. I'm debating selling it already, although watching walleyes swim around down there has me loading up the jigging rap box in the boat.
Keep it out of tournaments. Just one screen isn't that big of a deal but 6 is out of control.
Also, I don't think anyone has pointed out the fact that the guy who won this tournament is the same guy who caught the Minnesota state record last fall. Remember that fish somehow just died in extremely cold water. Anyone who thinks "it doesn't make a difference and you can't make the fish bite" is blind.
Edit - BNelson point it out!
Edited by Kirby Budrow 7/5/2022 12:42 PM
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| At some point isn’t this the exact same things as hunting with drones? |
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Location: Duluth | Kirby Budrow - 7/5/2022 12:40 PM
I've kept out of the discussion for the most part but I'll state my opinion. Livescope is cool. I bought one this winter. I have yet to sharp shoot a musky with it, and I have tried. Seeing the fish in their environment is very eye opening. The method of sharp shooting is boring though. I'm debating selling it already, although watching walleyes swim around down there has me loading up the jigging rap box in the boat.
Keep it out of tournaments. Just one screen isn't that big of a deal but 6 is out of control.
Also, I don't think anyone has pointed out the fact that the guy who won this tournament is the same guy who caught the Minnesota state record last fall. Remember that fish somehow just died in extremely cold water. Anyone who thinks "it doesn't make a difference and you can't make the fish bite" is blind.
Edit - BNelson point it out!
Absolutely on the money.
Sailing has this issue, bunch of rich dudes buy fast boats, fancy computers to help predict the wind and optimal course. This is all adjusted for via a handicapping system.
IDK have a livescope and then all the rest division. I know it would be one heck of a feather in the cap to put up respectable numbers in the "Regular division"
I know i'm sick or hearing guides talk about how they use it, sick of videos, and sick of anglers harassing fish........kind of feels like flossing a salmon but in the musky world.
Edited by CincySkeez 7/5/2022 3:38 PM
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| Kirby Budrow - 7/5/2022 12:40 PM
"Also, I don't think anyone has pointed out the fact that the guy who won this tournament is the same guy who caught the Minnesota state record last fall. Remember that fish somehow just died in extremely cold water."
I don't know the man (so I'm not defending anyone) at all but the reality is sometimes they just die. For example hook one in the junction of gills and throat (essentially the main artery) and they will bleed out in seconds and nothing can stop it. Generally your not fishing deep enough on that lake in late fall for trauma caused by depth to be an issue. No idea if the fish was located via electronics but certainly the pond is somewhat of a needle in a haystack scenario otherwise.
It is baseless and certainly not right to imply that the record fish was anything but a statistic that died because someone hooked it while fishing for muskies. If he killed it on purpose and you have clear facts on that then that should be stated otherwise your just seeking to discredit someone who has had some success in the sport of late.
Just my opinion...
Edited by bturg 7/5/2022 4:52 PM
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | BNelson - 7/5/2022 10:55 AM
I agree with JDSplasher and others who actually like the challenge of 'the hunt'. Is driving around with Livescope even fishing? I'd say no. it is not. to me it is like driving around at night with a spotlight and then shooting a deer, or that is the closest analogy I could come up with. Yes, they still have to bite, I get it. but it is not what musky fishing is all about .. I mean really where is the challenge or skill in that? I won't necesarily knock guys for doing it, but are there catches less impressive? I'd say they are... I guess we know how the MN state record was caught last fall....
also, I think those who think that technology won't hurt fisheries are dead wrong. limits will have to be altered and imo more muskies will have to be stocked. Muskies use to be able to 'hide' somewhat in open water, that is no more. Delayed mortality is obviously a real thing well if more and more fish are getting caught by the use of that crap more will die, it's simple math... Now guys can and DO sit on top of 50 inchers 20 feet down jigging them until they bite, yes that is how some are getting caught. Big picture I honestly wish that technology was never invented. It will change the sport and not for the good. Period.
The reality is not many folks care what you or I think except those who know you and I (for better or worse). The tech is out there, and anglers across the board will use it. If you think the noise is loud in competitive muskie angling, you should have followed competitive crappie fishing when the Livscope hit. It was, according to general consensus, the end of competitive crappie angling as we know it, yet here we are a couple of seasons in and it's hardly a mention anymore.
I get it there's a big difference between conservation for crappies and muskies, but the simple fact is we'll ALL have to deal with it. Will I sharp-shoot muskies? Nope, boring. Then again, I don't fish tournaments, either.
Our fisheries management will undoubtedly change if the predictions in your post come to pass, adjusting just like they have to increasing pressure over the last 50 years.
Thanks for the post bturg, I was interrupted by someone stealing Paul Hartman's Facebook account and selling fictional Yorkies or I'd have said close to what you said, just not as well. |
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Location: NW WI | sworrall - 7/5/2022 5:09 PM
BNelson - 7/5/2022 10:55 AM
I agree with JDSplasher and others who actually like the challenge of 'the hunt'. Is driving around with Livescope even fishing? I'd say no. it is not. to me it is like driving around at night with a spotlight and then shooting a deer, or that is the closest analogy I could come up with. Yes, they still have to bite, I get it. but it is not what musky fishing is all about .. I mean really where is the challenge or skill in that? I won't necesarily knock guys for doing it, but are there catches less impressive? I'd say they are... I guess we know how the MN state record was caught last fall....
also, I think those who think that technology won't hurt fisheries are dead wrong. limits will have to be altered and imo more muskies will have to be stocked. Muskies use to be able to 'hide' somewhat in open water, that is no more. Delayed mortality is obviously a real thing well if more and more fish are getting caught by the use of that crap more will die, it's simple math... Now guys can and DO sit on top of 50 inchers 20 feet down jigging them until they bite, yes that is how some are getting caught. Big picture I honestly wish that technology was never invented. It will change the sport and not for the good. Period.
The reality is not many folks care what you or I think except those who know you and I (for better or worse ). The tech is out there, and anglers across the board will use it. If you think the noise is loud in competitive muskie angling, you should have followed competitive crappie fishing when the Livscope hit. It was, according to general consensus, the end of competitive crappie angling as we know it, yet here we are a couple of seasons in and it's hardly a mention anymore.
I get it there's a big difference between conservation for crappies and muskies, but the simple fact is we'll ALL have to deal with it. Will I sharp-shoot muskies? Nope, boring. Then again, I don't fish tournaments, either.
Our fisheries management will undoubtedly change if the predictions in your post come to pass, adjusting just like they have to increasing pressure over the last 50 years.
Amen, I don't fish tourneys nor use the tech. But I'm also able to understand those that do. If you wanna beat em in that class, your going to have to join em. Musky fishing isn't really musky fishing in tournaments, it's musky hunting, and rightfully so. You best bet those that can afford every advantage will do so. As far as chasing deep open water pelagic fish go.... um, there's 2 major bait companies formed by that tactic before livescope came to market. Ripping big girls from the 20-30'ft mark isn't new. It's definitely easier now yes, and unfortunately in one case/yet fortunately in another-the reality is it'll take years of opinions and data to develop a consensus on the matter. I think most of us share the same opinion on a recreational level. But on a tourney level, that's for them to decide.Players don't make the calls;MLB and NFL can attest to that for sure. |
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Location: oswego, il | I seen a pic posted on FB of the winning boat it had a 32" screen that had all the graph outputs networked to. |
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Location: Selkirk, Manitoba | BNelson - 7/5/2022 10:55 AM
Big picture I honestly wish that technology was never invented. It will change the sport and not for the good. Period.
And it is only going to get even more user friendly and widely available with the results pushed on YT or wherever. Most tournaments are not really competitions, they are live billboards for products.
I personally prefer to see the giant "blondies" slowly follow out of the shallows - clearly pelagic fish compared to their green smaller striped cousins. But people are going to quickly sort out how to target these fish out where they feed and put the hurt on them. Some folks really just want a glory pic and/or numbers - it is no different than the stages of a hunter: starting want numbers => then trophies => then being out enjoying nature with friends. Some never evolve. Do not believe that this will self regulate because muskie fishers are all cut of the same cloth; they are not and I'm sure everyone here has to stories to make my point.
Stakeholders ultimately direct what managers are to do. Your Muskies Inc down there and Muskies Canada up here need to have some sort of stance. I don't know that is, perhaps needs to be driven by some research and user pollling.
Edited by Angling Oracle 7/6/2022 10:05 AM
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Angling Oracle - 7/6/2022 10:04 AM
BNelson - 7/5/2022 10:55 AM
Big picture I honestly wish that technology was never invented. It will change the sport and not for the good. Period.
And it is only going to get even more user friendly and widely available with the results pushed on YT or wherever. Most tournaments are not really competitions, they are live billboards for products.
I personally prefer to see the giant "blondies" slowly follow out of the shallows - clearly pelagic fish compared to their green smaller striped cousins. But people are going to quickly sort out how to target these fish out where they feed and put the hurt on them. Some folks really just want a glory pic and/or numbers - it is no different than the stages of a hunter: starting want numbers => then trophies => then being out enjoying nature with friends. Some never evolve. Do not believe that this will self regulate because muskie fishers are all cut of the same cloth; they are not and I'm sure everyone here has to stories to make my point.
Stakeholders ultimately direct what managers are to do. Your Muskies Inc down there and Muskies Canada up here need to have some sort of stance. I don't know that is, perhaps needs to be driven by some research and user pollling.
[/QUOTE
That has been a topic of conversation during a couple of Muskies Inc executive committee meetings this year. I was just re-elected for another term, so I'll bring it up again. |
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Posts: 358
| i still have hand drawn maps of reefs on the south side of LOTW...when the GPS maps came out nobody had to do the leg work anymore, you could literally drive to the best spots. walleye fishing was going to be decimated. but it wasn't. and there is extreme pressure on spots 12 months of the year. fish somehow seem to adapt.
livescope was looking to dominate tournament bass fishing. and as it is a great tool guys are in the top 10 AOY who barely use electronics at all. there was some interesting banter recently some pros were using livescope to snag fish. if anything it seems like it has spread anglers out creating more opportunities for guys not using it odd as that sounds.
new technology is a slippery slope for sure. but there is going to be a next thing that make live imaging a thing of the past |
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Location: Chisholm, MN | RJ_692 - 7/7/2022 7:31 AM
i still have hand drawn maps of reefs on the south side of LOTW...when the GPS maps came out nobody had to do the leg work anymore, you could literally drive to the best spots. walleye fishing was going to be decimated. but it wasn't. and there is extreme pressure on spots 12 months of the year. fish somehow seem to adapt.
livescope was looking to dominate tournament bass fishing. and as it is a great tool guys are in the top 10 AOY who barely use electronics at all. there was some interesting banter recently some pros were using livescope to snag fish. if anything it seems like it has spread anglers out creating more opportunities for guys not using it odd as that sounds.
new technology is a slippery slope for sure. but there is going to be a next thing that make live imaging a thing of the past
I would say walleye and sauger fishing on Lake of the Woods is far worse than it used to be. Not entirely due to maps but many other human factors. |
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Posts: 414
Location: SW Ohio | Tim, at PMTT, sent out an email to all trail team members asking their vote with three selections on the live scope debacle. He will follow the top vote in making yet another change to this year's rules. Not sure I'm going to vote as none of the three choices are what I would consider a good decision. I also can't tell if this will be a permanent decision or only for the remainder of the year. We're not allowed to voice any opinion, just make a selection from his list. We'll see. We have a few days to think about before the deadline to vote. |
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| OH Musky,
If I may ask, what were the three answer choices he gave?
Thanks and good fishing!
TC |
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Location: E. Tenn | ..
Edited by miket55 7/8/2022 10:31 PM
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Location: deephaven mn | Waldacki just taking inventory of were his field stands on this issue.
Banning livescope and all other live electronics ( all companies have them)
would add another boat inspection proceess that may not be worth it.
Livescope is just a better version of side imaging. Most boats have one or both of these.
This technology was used last year by others and some tournament winners have admitted using livescope in the past, Intersting to see the results of the questioning.
you may lose competitors by isssuing a ban. |
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Location: oswego, il | If this type of sharpshooting is the future, I can see many of the traditional perennials who compete bowing out. It will eventually trickle down to club and local tournaments. It will change who will compete.and i think there will be less participation because of it. |
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| Lets not forget that ethical snagged fish are allowed to be entered without an issue. |
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Location: SW Ohio | kap - 7/9/2022 8:11 AM
Waldacki just taking inventory of were his field stands on this issue.
Banning livescope and all other live electronics ( all companies have them)
would add another boat inspection proceess that may not be worth it.
Livescope is just a better version of side imaging. Most boats have one or both of these.
This technology was used last year by others and some tournament winners have admitted using livescope in the past, Intersting to see the results of the questioning.
you may lose competitors by isssuing a ban.
There are no boat inspections on the PMTT. Used to have to open all compartments at the start but they haven’t done that in a couple years. I think any mid-season rules changes not directly related to safety are a bad idea but they have done that several times over the years. Usually to benefit one group or another but never for the betterment of everyone. |
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| I recall one of the BASS or MLF or one of the commentators talking about these units and the discussion centered around it giving many mostly older competitors new life...it put a lot of others off shore and their flipping spots were getting way less tourney pressure. I suspect the same would happen and if half the field is Snipping it....the advantage will be reduced quickly.
If it stays within the rules.
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Posts: 46
| Seems to me we had a similar discussion about today's technology some time ago. At that time I offered the following. Aldo Leopold, considered the father of modern resource management, Univ. Wi. often talked about how we as resource users "tend to kill what we love"
With today's current technology and with what will surly come in the relative future how can you possibly compare this to the "green box or paper graph". Notice the lack of question mark, it's just a thought to consider. |
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Posts: 2026
| Consider this. I heard a story of a guy using it on Vermilion last year. Basically, they drive around and cast at a very limited number of fish a day, and don't catch all they cast at. An average of 7 marks cast at is what comes to mind, can't remember the number they told my buddy. Compare that to casting the multiple spots you'd hit each day. I bet there were far more than 7 fish seeing your lure buzz by on those spots. |
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Location: Brighton CO. | Over the years there been talk of "far chase" in regards to fishing. We talk of electronics ECT and finding fish.
What about the fish? What do they see? I've chased these things since 1976. How big do these things get? And when they get big (super lunker sized) why can't we catch them?
If anybody's read "Time On The Water" by Bill Gardner he talks of the big three the late Tony Rizzo and Dick Rose along with still going Joe Bucher. Tony with his open water fishing and night fishing to beat fishing pressure and he also lived on a lake with a lot of state land. (this cut down on the amount of cabins) Joe came out with great lures and leaders and Dick died young at age 52 and guided part time but still put big fish in the boat.
These guys knew how to fish and taught a lot of us how to fish but what happened to all the big fish?
Dad and I have caught some big fish and on rare occasions seen some true giants. You catch a fish up to 54" and the true super lunkers feed in deep water, we see them up shallow but they not feeding. They hear our motors, deep finders and are out of there! In DickP.'s "Muskies On The Shield" in the section on Trout water he's talks about a guy who would row and drift into a bay what a half hour then make one cast. That is what it takes to catch a true giant! |
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | If you have a direct criticism of the PMTT take it to them. There will be no bashing of any circuit here. |
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | fatturtle011 - 7/10/2022 4:50 PM
Seems to me we had a similar discussion about today's technology some time ago. At that time I offered the following. Aldo Leopold, considered the father of modern resource management, Univ. Wi. often talked about how we as resource users "tend to kill what we love"
With today's current technology and with what will surly come in the relative future how can you possibly compare this to the "green box or paper graph". Notice the lack of question mark, it's just a thought to consider.
Easy, the tech was just as shocking at the time and the same discussion was taking place. I was there, perhaps you were not. |
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| Technology and its impact on fishing is interesting. I remember when trolling motors became available. They were very crude and weak compared to what we have today but far superior to rowing or drifting for casting. There was concern they would make musky fishing too "easy". As someone who spent a fair amount of time on the oars of a 16' deep v aluminum boat with three guys in it, I thought it seemed like a darn fine idea ;>). Seemed like there were a lot of younger guys back then that had bad shoulders, backs, etc. that prevented them from spending much time on the oars.
Edited by North of 8 7/11/2022 12:50 PM
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| Equity and Equality
If I remember correctly BASS (Ray Scott) provided all boats for the competitors for the 1st couple of Bass master Classics. They were also limited as to tackle at 15 - 20 lb- ? and the lake location was a secret. Hard to have a mega event weigh in if nobody knows where you are going to be. This didn't last long as Ray quickly realized the new circuit needed sponsors and spectators. Providing boats and limiting tackle only reduced sponsor participation. Not long after the 150 Hp outboard rule came off as well. BASS is wide open Hell, I have seen radar units strapped to bow pedestals to get through the fog.
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The operative word here is Pro. I have no problem with the Pro circuit doing whatever they loke and the Amateur / Fun events can restrict or embrace them as they please. |
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| in a few seasons everyone will have one and there will be no perceived unfair advantage... |
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Location: Brighton CO. | I'm not a tournament fishermen. So I don't care what they do! I'm looking for the biggest fish that swims. I have not been on a real up north fishing trip since 2018. Two books that really get me going are "Musky Strategy" Tom Gelb and "In Pursuit Of Giant Bass" by Bill Murphy. If we see them on our finders maybe they know where we are! Do they hear our deep finder? Trolling motor? waves hitting the side of the boat? shadows? maybe the sound of our lures gives us away? Maybe 52" don't care? maybe the 60" does! Is there a 60 incher?
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Posts: 46
| Not at the level of your involvement, for sure, and thank you for that. But just a guy wondering where we end up. Do I have to be a sitting member to question or have a concern about the future of musky fishing? |
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | fatturtle011 - 7/11/2022 7:47 PM
Not at the level of your involvement, for sure, and thank you for that. But just a guy wondering where we end up. Do I have to be a sitting member to question or have a concern about the future of musky fishing?
'With today's current technology and with what will surly come in the relative future how can you possibly compare this to the "green box or paper graph"'
I was reacting to this statement. |
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