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Posts: 244
Location: Mallard Island Lake Vermilion MN | Hi all.
What Exactly does it mean when someone says they are a Pro Staff Member of Lund Boats?
Ranger Boats?
SO on and so forth boats???
Don't they have like six Zillion of these guys wearing them shirts & Hats who just fill out forms saying there guides or Tourney anglers to get the price break?
Then disapper in a year or two after they don't get anyone buying boats.
I figured them guys was all Walleye Tourney guys or Saleamen of said boats.
Now I see NON Tourney Musky guides and friends yacking about this?
What's the true meaning of this statement?
T.
Edited by KidDerringer 2/13/2004 11:04 AM
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Posts: 2384
Location: On the X that marks the mucky spot | I was on a prostaff last year and I don't think I'd do it again. Most of the time you are required to purchase a new boat every 1-2 years at a reduced rate that often times doesn't keep up with the depreciation. You then have to be the dealers #$@#%^ at boatshows and special events. All this for a few grand off a boat that I probably wouldn't have bought new anyway.
Don't get me wrong I LOVE my boat, but I wouldn't have spent that kind of money if I knew I wouldn't be able to sell it w/o taking a hit at the end. I suppose if you really abuse a boat and need to keep it fresh it's a good deal, but not for my financial situation. Your better off to follow a prostaffer around and pick-up their boat when they're done IMOP.
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Posts: 244
Location: Mallard Island Lake Vermilion MN | Two very honest efforts, thanks!
I have fished with Rob Manthei, he is fun, would bet he would be good at that testing and reporting area.
Now as for fishing?
LOL
Keep on Rock'en!
T. | |
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Posts: 2754
Location: Mauston, Wisconsin | Great question- here's the answer from someone who just happened to stumble into this fishing business. A year and a half ago a good friend & I embarked on what we thought was a good idea; we still think it was a good idea.. That was to setup a business importing and selling quality fishing lures from a manufacturer in Sweden (Zalt SA) . Not a bad idea by any means because prior to this they were impossible to purchase in the USA. Where most garage/basement manufactureres have a luxury, i.e., no heavy overhead investments- we don't. Needless to say ~ +$50K later we have learned a few lessons. Lesson #1 was Prostaff. We started out by selecting a potential staff of ~ 7 well known muskie fisherman. The initial concept from our perspective was - OK- we need to earn your endorsement of our products so here's the deal for 2003- We give you free lures, you tell us what you think and we promise never to divulge your name as being associated with us without your permission. It's now + 1 year later. How many came through with honest feedback or recommendations? Answer -> 2 . Lesson learned. We get better high quality feed back from our customers. We didn't ask them to lie or stick lures in fish's mouth that they didn't catch with our lures. All we wanted was honest feed back. Obviously our concept of prostaff was flawed. Why am I disappointed- I am a bit extreme- right Ranger? For 2003 I stripped my tackle box and fished with nothing but our lures. I also have a day job that is very time restrictive, meaning I have very limited time on the water. For 2003 I got in ~ 10 days fishing ( dusk-dawn) . 6 of those days was fishing for bait, i.e., walleyes etc. 31" walleyes and are fun, but I missed an honest +36". Bigest pike was a 38"- my buddy got a 41" on a Zam. Only 4 days was chasing muskies on lake that were totally new.I got 3 fish - 39.5-41-39.5. Spent a few 1/2 day weedends with my 7 year old granddaughter and 4 1/2 year old grandson bank fishing on the local river. Managed to raise muskies everytime out, including a +50" twice- My grandaughter caught her first pike on a 14 cm Zalt. I can still hear her screeching and shouting for help ( only 22") but for her it was a monster. So I guess we scratch 5 from the list and maintain the other two as what we consider as real prostaff. They will be recieving new lures as they become available. To all of the rest of our real prostaff-> our customers - Thankyou from all of us at Zalt NAD, we hope our lures let you catch that fish of a lifetime.... So just went back and read the question again. However thought about it and decided to leave the post here anway- I guess the answer is there's good one's and not so good one's, you're just going to have to be smart enough to know the difference. Al Warner "All Water is Zalt Water" http://www.zaltnad.com
Edited by ESOX Maniac 2/10/2004 5:49 PM
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| esox maniac - mauston? too funny. i just moved there this last september. got any plans for May 1st??? we should hit the water...i'll even volunteer to guinea pig some of those lures for ya! i sure as heck can't claim to approach the lofty heights of "pro staff" status, but i'll give you some of that customer feedback... | |
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Posts: 2384
Location: On the X that marks the mucky spot | Good point Al. I think most mfg's are looking for input, but really want someone who can sell their wares. I'm on the prostaff for some other equipment mfg's and love giving my input (go figure) and promoting those brands. One think that I think is VERY important is believing in the products you represent. The way I look at a prostaff position is if I would pay to fish/use their product they're someone I'd like to represent.
BTW Al, you need another prostaffer???  | |
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Posts: 32958
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | I have organized and run several 'teams' for boat companies, lure builders, and others in the business. The idea is to set up a network of good fishermen who also are great PR people to assist in getting the good word out about a product. In short, a Pro staffer is part of a marketing program.
Some are guides, some tournament anglers, some writers, some just good old boys with great connections. The binding thread throughout is an ability to communicate well, get along with the public, and promote a positive image of themselves and the products they represent.
None of them get anything 'free'. Contracts are drawn where product is consideration for work done, but that is FAR from free. One team I worked with in 1990, 91, and 92 had four high profile folks from the Walleye world, and several from the Bass world involved, and they were on the road in the winter promoting as much as I was selling--- That was WAY too much. Then the summer was taken by tournaments, promotional events, etc. Hard on the family life, and not a real glamorous way to earn a living; waking up near every morning in a hotel somewhere, looking at a 11 hour day on the Sports Show floor. Always LOOKS good from the outside, but isn't quite so sweet when you've completed 17 weekends in a row at Sport or Boat shows.
So, KD; a ture Pro Staffer can be anyone from a great stick in the local area to a guy who makes his living in the fishing business. Either way, if they are going to be successful at the job, they had better treat it as exactly that. | |
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Posts: 4266
| I was on the Daiwa Pro Staff for years.
I got new rods and reels every year, then sold my one-year old stuff.
In return I worked every day of the Milwaukee Sport Show to earn X-ammount of credit toward r-and-r. I also did about 20 seminars every year for credit...all of this while still working a real 7-3 job. It was no picnic.
The philosophy is a good one. We, as seasoned anglers, can see through any salesmans line of crap. Good fishermen can promote and sell more tackle etc. than any salesman.
When I got on board, one of the wisest ol' guys in the business took me out to dinner and told me something that rang true then and is still gospel today.....THE FISHING INDUSTRY HAS MORE PIMPS AND WHORES IN IT THAN BOURBON STREET DOES..... There are always people out there that will do anything....and I mean anything to be a pro-staffer. Lie, cheat, lie, pass along false information, sell their souls to their sponsors.....did I mention lie? And then you have guys like me and Worrall.:)
I do very few seminars anymore, but I still write as many articles that I can and will promote products that deserve to be promoted and talk up products that I use and have faith and trust and confidence in...like St Croix and Frabill. I might not be a pro or a guide, but in this day and age an article on a web site gets some major circulation.
Beav | |
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Posts: 376
Location: Lake Vermilion Tower, MN | Hey Tommy,
I fished and guided for 30 years before I ever had an opportunity to be on anyones "ProStaff".
I do think the fact that Vermilion has become so famous the last few years has had a lot to do with it.
I never really went looking for it because I don't really look good in dockers and sandals. However, I am now on board with a few tackle companys that give me free baits.
It's all good stuff and I do use it, but I really don't do much on the promotion side, except to my customers. If they get a fish on one they may be impressed, or they may not. I'm really not into high pressure sales tactics, I let the tackle speak for it's self. 
I have no boat deals, because I am
not into buying a new boat every other year. I did just buy a new Yamaha this winter, but the folks at Yamaha just don't have much of a guide program. So it cost me the same as anyone else pays, no big deal, I own it and I didn't have to kiss nobodys butt to get it.
Edited by guideman 2/11/2004 11:30 AM
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Posts: 578
Location: Sheboygan Falls, WI | I have a "pro staff" of over 50 guys and one young lady. They come from all walks of life and all different fishing backgrounds. Some of the pro staff are salesmen themselves while other are teachers, business managers, retired people, engineers, railroad workers, firemen, own their own various businesses and even high school students. Some of these same people are guides, some fish tournaments, some write articles, some do television shows and others do seminars; some combine a few of these and others combine them all.
I have literally hundreds of people each year contact me to be on my pro staff. I pick what I feel is the cream of the crop. In fact, I am so proud and impressed with the people that I have, I would put them up against any other organized pro staff out there. I am not just saying this because I know that many of my pro staff frequent this board, I am saying this because I believe it. These people are my "TEAM".
I have my "team" work shows with me, do seminars, do tournament promotions, in-store promotions, grand openings or what ever else may come up. These people do not hesitate to help me out, because they know that they can rely on me to help them out in what ever way I can. They contact me, many literally begging, to do shows and any other kind of promotion.
My "team" members earn credits for working the various promotions, doing seminars, writing articles, doing television shows or what ever. With the credits they get free product, besides what ever else they may need if they use up their credits and they run into a pinch. Oh, can't forget the fully embroidered shirts and hats. All expenses are paid such as motels, travel miles and meals. If they want a few drinks at the lounge some evening, they are on their own. I also do not pay for tournament entries, not even my own, when I work a tournament and also fish it.
Now, Beav must not be a salesman, cuz I am. It is true that if a salesman is feeding a good fisherman a line, that fisherman will (or should) be able to see right through it. The difference is, if you know your product and you have the facts, that line will be the truth about that certain product. There are many times at shows that people will come into our booth and would rather talk to pro staff than a factory guy. Stop in our booth sometime when we are all there working and I would venture to guess that you will have a very, very hard time telling who I am and who my pro staff are if you were not to look at the names on the shirts; okay, go ahead and look at the names as you probably do not know me anyway.
I am not going to take anything away from my pro staff, but being with the company 8 years, I better be able to sell my guys under the table. Many times they have really good ideas for additional selling tools and what could be done, so we implement them. The biggest thing though is when they start working with me, they usually watch for the first few people that I deal with and then they take off from there. We work as a TEAM!!! There is no "I" in TEAM, so when I have retailers thank me for doing a great job at a show and selling a bunch of product for them, I tell them that it was not me, but us as a team that did it. Heck, there are shows that we do where I come in and set up the booth and some of my pro staff take over and handle the rest of the show. Team work, you cannot do it all by yourself.
If you look at the industry as a whole, you will see different companies handling their "pro staff" in different ways. Free product, discounted product or what ever. One thing to remember, being on a pro staff is not a free ride. If you can't do something to help what ever company it may be, do not expect much in return, much less even be on the pro staff. If a person is not willing to work and help out, they should not even pursue a pro staff position. The fact is, I had a gentleman in the Twin Cities call me and said to cut him lose as he had to change jobs and would not be able to help out as much. In the same conversation, he asked if he could get donations for a kids deal that he would be at. Right then, I told him that he would not be off of the pro staff, because he was still involved with the most important people in fishing today, the kids; our future.
Sorry for the rambling, but some perspective from someone that keeps a large staff going. Granted, not a boat manufacturer, but a decent sized tackle manufacturer.
Winter, go away!!!
Chuck | |
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Posts: 244
Location: Mallard Island Lake Vermilion MN | Great stuff everyone.
Thanks a lot.
Wide mix of things covered and it is a very good read.
Very interesting info.
Very good efforts by all.
I like it.
Sort of sad about the Zalt Pro Staff.
What's up boys, forgot to write?
Lots of experts around these days.
Young to old, it is all good to someone I guess.
I just go fish'en and keep learning, year after year after year...
Two year ago I mentioned to Mr. Chris Drury of VooDootails how much I used his products and showed him photos of fish caight and released on them.
Just wanted him to know he did have a good customer and that his product works.
He liked that I guess, we been E-mail pals since.
Even guided him and Joe Mellot last July.
He now has me on his PRO STAFF, but I'm really not the Pro you or he might be think of or be looking for when you doing a search?
The Pro word always seems to bug me in the guts?
I just got what Ace Calls a Musky MoJo.
Bonnie & Rick Call it Musky Madness.
That is sort of where I got my Nick Name.
LOL
More of a ability to find them and get them to CHEW!
A Boneafide Musky Finder or Hunter as it were?
Can you say that on this site?
Run the VooDootail decal on my boat cause I really use his stuff.
It is high quality product and catches fish in the waters I fish.
Where and when I use it.
He gave me a bunch of stuff in Spring of 2003 and I did not want to take it due to him and his wife having a NEW baby.
Guilt weights heavy on my little mind at things like things.
Would rahter not have anything FREE and always pay my own way.
He sent it any way.
So I figured it was maybe a good thing?
As if I got more people to use his stuff he could buy the baby more diapers and keep it in warm clothes or put it away for school'en?
I gave all but two lure away to clients last year.
Kept me a Lucky Spinner bait I banged a 50" on opener with and French blade Bucktail I nailed 47" Pike on.
Clients like the product and all that used them caught fish on at some point during the season of 2003.
Sure not all 50", but they do produce.
Good a way as any I know to help someone build a biz?
One young guy came to the small Lake Vermilion Musky school a few of us local guides helped Capt. Ken do last August. www.muskieschool.com
One young guy Dave, went out with me.
I showed him some spots, some stuff on how to work a hand full of lures and when it might be best to use them.
We talked about Musky and life and other stuff like womens and dogs, owning an Island and never giving up on ones dreams.
We saw a bunch of fish but did not get them to chew.
Gave him and one other guy in the school a few of the Voodootails he was tossing and a Manta or two they had there eyes on ALL morning and sure enuff they go out and get a 50" fish that evening at Sunset.
A real nice 48" the next day.
Way cool.
Now he is a VooDootail fan for life.
Three day or so after the school deal, I get a call late night out on the Island from Mr. Drury.
He told me of this very excited young guy who called and told him of the BIG fish he had caught on a Free lure I had given him.
I hear he also sent Chris the photos?
Kind of full circle.
From Chris's hands, up to me then to Dave then to the fish and Dave then back to Chris?
LOL
Dave and I have talked Via E-mail once in a while this winter and I no doubt will have to beat him away from my docks this summer.
Just sort of a fun deal I wanted to share while I watch the snow fall and the hounds wrestle.
Thanks for the Pro Staff info everyone, I really had no idea.
Maybe see you on the water this summer.
If you see me, come on over and say hi as Barney and Homer J love to meet new Musky people.
No fish by my docks.
Keep on Rock'en!
Tom Wehler
www.muskytomsguideservice.com | |
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Posts: 2754
Location: Mauston, Wisconsin | Ok- For sake of clarity, and in fairness to the ZaltNAD 2003 Prostaff, the problem is probably a two way street, I've been extremely busy and I expect they have likewise been busy. But the deal was here's the lures (typically $300-500 at retail) fish with them in 2003 and tell us what you think- perhaps I should have been more agressive. Just spoke w/ Mike he's talked w/ a couple more & forwarded me one of the 2003 reports. Very good report with lots of good feedback. By the others silence should I assume they don't care? I think they do care, perhaps just maybe like myself - to dang busy. I must say I did get a reply from one after I posted in this thread. He was not happy about that and asked to be removed. I admit I'm new to the whole prostaff deal: Did I set my expectations to high? To low? I'll accept responsibility for not clearly communicating my expectations. If our customers and my grandchildren can catch fish on the lures, I'm not worried. Al Warner "All Water is Zalt Water" http://www.zaltnad.com | |
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Posts: 69
| Hiya,
Kind of an interesting discussion. Couple thoughts:
Seems like some people have the idea that there are wads of cash out there waiting to be made by people who get on this company or that company's pro staff, or that companies have stacks of free boats to give away each year. Not too long ago I listened to one guy tell me that, since he was fishing muskie tourneys now, he'd be getting free boats before long. I didn't have the heart to burst his bubble by telling him I'd sprout wings before it happened. Another told me he DID get a free boat, from a company that doesn't give free boats to anyone. Not their top PWT guys, not their top BASS guys - nobody. So I guess he was outright lying. Fact is, *nobody* gets 'free boats.' You can probably count the number of boats given away by all the major mfgs. put together on one hand. Some companies will let you get a memo boat, though that's less common now than in the past. A memo boat isn't a free boat. It's usually not a very good deal at all frankly, and if you don't sell the boat at the end of the year you can get clobbered on the financing. Most often, you get a few percent break on the boat, depending on what you can do for them. That deal usually comes with the obligation do do some work for the boat co. or their dealers in return.
Which is my second point. The 'Pro' in Pro Staff doesn't mean 'professional' - it means 'promotional.' A lot of people seem to forget that. The people on a pro staff, at least when a company has done a good job choosing them (and that's tough), are there to help promote the company. Sometimes that's promoting the image and brand identity, sometimes it's the products themselves, usually it's both. Companies - especially larger ones - don't put you on a pro staff because you're a good fisherman (lots of those around), because you just LOVE to fish (you and a hundred thousand other guys), because you caught x number of big fish last year (they don't care), or because you're extra nice to your dog (dogs don't buy boats/rods/reels/whatever). They do it because they think you can help their business by selling, educating, and representing their brand in the marketplace.
Just a couple thoughts on 'pro staffs.'
RK
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Posts: 1939
Location: Black Creek, WI | Very well said RK!!!!!!! | |
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| Good viewpoints, I have a question regarding Internet Pro’s: Are they professional or promotional? Or could they be different animal altogether?
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Posts: 7119
Location: Northwest Chicago Burbs | Define internet pro? | |
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Posts: 2384
Location: On the X that marks the mucky spot | Steve Cady | |
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Posts: 2691
Location: Pewaukee, Wisconsin | WOW, very good stuff on this thread.
I don't consider myself a "Pro" by any means. I do guide,fish the PMTT, WMT and fish plenty of smaller tournaments. Helping people with questions about product or service is what I feel a Pro Staff is all about.
The 'Pro' in Pro Staff doesn't mean 'professional' - it means 'promotional. RK said it best.
The first question I ask myself before working out a Pro Staff deal is "what can I do for them". If you can come up with plenty of good ideas then you might be a good Pro Staff addition to their team.
p.s. Chuck you do have a good team. You should be proud.
This is not a plug just a fact.
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Posts: 136
| Funny stuff Treats. The actual internet pro knows everything. I just know that I like to type. I think Mr. Kimm said it best. Pro doesn't not mean Professional. Promotional is a much better fit. Free boats? Free Boats? Heck I'd just like one that came with a built in auto winch is all. | |
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Posts: 578
Location: Sheboygan Falls, WI | I too believe that RK made a very good point in pointing out the "professional" and "promotional" differences. I have one person on board, actually the company does, that I consider a professional. This person makes their living fishing, speaking about fishing, writing about fishing and making educational fishing videos.
The rest of my "team" are the "promotional" people that are not lucky enough to just fish for a living. They love to fish and know a lot about fishing; most importantly though, they are very personable and public orientated. These people may feel intimidated at first, but they soon realize that they have a lot to share in helping educate people.
Some of them that are guides may not have a great deal of time to spend at shows, but they do get people in their boats. They help their clients gain the knowledge about our baits as well as others that we may not make. As guides/tournament fishermen, I do not expect them to throw our products all of the time as not all situations are conducive to bucktails. Heck, my largest fish in Wisconsin last year was caught on a Suick.
Here we go, now a debate will probably start on exactly what is a professional. Let's not go there guys. I think that we all have a very good understanding of who is a professional and who is not.
Mike, thanks for the compliment, but that should go to my "team". They are the ones that are giving their time to helping out. They have commited themselves to helping in which ever way they can. They made the choice, I did not force them. I may have brought these people together, and am always looking to add people, but they are the ones that make it happen.
Is anyone else getting sick of winter? I just cleaned the roof of the house tonight of a solid 2' of snow. YUCK!!
Chuck | |
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| as i'm reading through the thread (great stuff), i keep trying to figure out what the source of the confusion is...here's my shot at it.
i think that the concept of "pro staff" brings up images in my mind of some sort of glamorous life of spending every day fishing. (similar to the fantasy that being a guide is not really work...) in my mind i make it into what i WANT it to be. and...the simple fact is, that this image is encouraged by companies to promote their product through their advertising, the "hey that's so-and-so" at the fishing shows, etc. every time i see an ad featuring someone's "pro staff" they're in a boat holding up a big fish. every show i go to their pros are wearing slick bright shirts and hats that look cool. and they're ALWAYS smiling. looks like a pretty good deal, right? image is everything in advertising.
i love fishing. and when i think about something i love i want everything about it to be ideal. however, even for fishing companies, making money is everything in business, and it's a very competitive business. companies that give away their product don't make money. companies that don't get a lot of bang for their pro staff buck don't make money. companies that don't make money go away. it's not the idealized version that i want it to be - not the glamorous dream of someday being so good at fishing that some company would be just plum honored to have me sitting in one of their free boats - but at the end of the day, it's a business.
there's a whole heck of a lot of difference between giving a member of a fishing pro staff a free $40,000 boat, and giving the guy who's #250 on the golfing money list a free set of $700 irons so he'll wear your company hat on the weekend. especially when you compare the advertising impact of each of those dollars. how many people watch golf on TV on weekends? and buy golf clubs/balls/ugly shirts? how many people see John "Pro Staff" Doe standing tall in his new boat in a whole YEAR? it's a business.
which i think brings a tie-in to the musky tourney/bass tourney question: in the world of professional bass fishing, are members of pro staffs more likely to get free items - especially big ticket items like boats/motors/electronics, etc. i would surmise so because of the added factor of TV coverage, the MUCH larger target market of bass fishermen, and companies competing to get deals with the top tour champions?
my $.02!
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Posts: 358
| RK, very well said!
Pro-Staff? Many interesting comments on this thread, and I have found many of them quite educational to me. Still being the new kid on the block so to speak, I had considered generating a "Pro-Staff" to help bolster sales of my products. I still havent rejected the idea, but I am straying farther and farther away from doing it. Example: I have a very good customer, and this relationship has turned into a friendship. He is a guide, catches lots of "ski's" and knows his home waters like the back of his hand. But, he is also a PMTT fisherman, and is not about to give up his secret baits that I have produced for him so that others could purchase the same baits (and I do see his point on this, no matter how I much I dont like it LOL.)
Being a small business, I am not after large production run contracts, I specialize in truly custom baits. I am still on the fence with this "Pro-Staff" idea, I am just not sure of the ROI when all is said and done.
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