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Posts: 318
| How are you guys using this technology in the musky fishing world? I am just trying to decide if the tech is worth an upgrade. Has it put any extra fish in your boat or made your life easier? |
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Posts: 26
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BnWyBi6e5Ls
I thought this was a really cool video. Not sure it will help you but you can get a good idea of how it works. |
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Posts: 318
| Yeah, thank you. I think its a super cool technology for sure. Is anyone actually using like that? Does it work that practically in a casting a weedline setting? Lets say I pull up to a spot - circling a sunken rock pile while casting - is it going to actually be practical to use in that way? |
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Posts: 674
Location: Duluth | I know its being utilized in open water situations quite successfully. Worth it to me if you can afford it, especially since it can be used all season. |
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Posts: 2370
Location: Chisholm, MN | You have the right idea. Lots of people doing it. Unfortunately it's putting a lot more pressure on the fish and we're seeing a lot more floaters this year because of it. Reason being people are pulling fish from deep water is temps that are way too warm. My advice is to be careful to target shallower fish with it. |
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Posts: 356
| True concerns for sure.I was fortunate to have it demonstrated to me by some experts. Incredible tool.
I’m not sure it’s for me nor good for the sport in the long run.Waiting to see. |
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Posts: 354
Location: Vilas County, WI | Excellent tool; adds another element to locating, finding, and catching fish that previously went unfound or never saw a bait. I agree with Dick and Kirby above.
In the tournament setting, it seems to be gaining traction from a controversial standpoint. I know of one recent tournament where the anglers spent more time driving around live scoping fish vs actually fishing. Once they found one, they'd stop and try to catch it; then move on until they found another.
Edited by TheShow 9/3/2021 8:18 AM
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Posts: 57
| Let’s not forget that under water cameras we’re going to be the end of fish populations too. It’s a tool and useful in some aspects of musky fishing. Lest we all forget, finding them is only half the game. |
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Posts: 189
| killdeer - 9/3/2021 5:57 PM
Let’s not forget that under water cameras we’re going to be the end of fish populations too. It’s a tool and useful in some aspects of musky fishing. Lest we all forget, finding them is only half the game. ]
I've always thought finding them was more like 90% of the game. I don't like the way things are going. Right now the only guys spending the big money on this stuff are the serious anglers that for the most part catch and release when it comes to musky bass and walleye. And once it becomes cheaper over time and every meat hinter can figure it out we're in trouble. The 360 is an issue for panfish on the ice. |
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Vilas15 - 9/3/2021 9:05 PM
killdeer - 9/3/2021 5:57 PM
Let’s not forget that under water cameras we’re going to be the end of fish populations too. It’s a tool and useful in some aspects of musky fishing. Lest we all forget, finding them is only half the game. ]
I've always thought finding them was more like 90% of the game. I don't like the way things are going. Right now the only guys spending the big money on this stuff are the serious anglers that for the most part catch and release when it comes to musky bass and walleye. And once it becomes cheaper over time and every meat hinter can figure it out we're in trouble. The 360 is an issue for panfish on the ice.
I have used the Aqua-Vu cameras since they came out and have a couple of quads on the way. See 360 degrees, used one last year. Did I catch more fish as a result? Not appreciably, no, but it sure was cool. I've had a 360 on my ride since those came out. Do they make it easier to find fish? Yes. Easier to catch them? Yes. Will the average guy ever buy and employ/learn how to use them? I don't know, I get some pretty amazed looks and comments because of the rigging on my little Lund at the landings with the AV camera, 'Bird 360, and 1Boat network. We are a long way from average use, but it'll happen. 5 fish limits of each pannie is the answer, with size limits on some waters, too. Like on Indian, 5 gills, 5 crappies, 5 whatever.
I know the southern crappie guys are nutso over the live screen units. Limits down there are changing too, so we'll see.
On the ice I'm not worried too much. The thousands of Aqua-Vu hours I have has convinced me the fish move WAY more than most think and move all the time, and running around with an 8 to 10" Mega and a 360 transducer is not for the weak of patience sort of individual. Tip-downs with 5 guys like I see so often is so damaging it's hard to describe, and no need to move around then if you know what you are doing. |
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Posts: 46
| Aldo Leopold once made the comment that we as resource users " tend to kill what we love" Hope not but he was right about a lot. |
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Posts: 1373
| If we have appropriate harvest regulations, and adequate enforcement, things will be fine. Harvest regs have been moving in the correct direction in recent years. There will always be meat hogs, but the culture is changing. Most newcomers to fishing have no problem with selective harvest and catch and release. |
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| TCESOX - 9/4/2021 8:18 PM
If we have appropriate harvest regulations, and adequate enforcement, things will be fine. Harvest regs have been moving in the correct direction in recent years. There will always be meat hogs, but the culture is changing. Most newcomers to fishing have no problem with selective harvest and catch and release.
I agree but the part of the equation that is lacking in WI is adequate enforcement. Oneida County, with several hundred lakes and many miles of river and streams has only one warden dedicated to fish and game regulation enforcement. I fish spring, summer, fall and winter on the chain where I have lived full time for 6 years and have encountered a warden one time. Prior to that we had a seasonal place for 12 years and never was checked by a warden. If we want to preserve our resources, we need to invest in more enforcement. If that means higher license fees, so be it. The other thing is that if you know of limit violations, etc., call it in. |
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Location: Chisholm, MN | Also the delayed mortality and just an increase in the amount of fish caught is not affected by bag limits. It’s definitely harmful to muskies. I’m not saying don’t get it. Just be careful. I have mega live on preorder myself. |
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| North of 8 - 9/4/2021 9:19 PM
TCESOX - 9/4/2021 8:18 PM
If we have appropriate harvest regulations, and adequate enforcement, things will be fine. Harvest regs have been moving in the correct direction in recent years. There will always be meat hogs, but the culture is changing. Most newcomers to fishing have no problem with selective harvest and catch and release.
I agree but the part of the equation that is lacking in WI is adequate enforcement. Oneida County, with several hundred lakes and many miles of river and streams has only one warden dedicated to fish and game regulation enforcement. I fish spring, summer, fall and winter on the chain where I have lived full time for 6 years and have encountered a warden one time. Prior to that we had a seasonal place for 12 years and never was checked by a warden. If we want to preserve our resources, we need to invest in more enforcement. If that means higher license fees, so be it. The other thing is that if you know of limit violations, etc., call it in.
You are correct. That is what I meant by adequate enforcement. It doesn't have to be ball busting enforcement, just enough busts with fairly harsh penalties, to deter the majority of those inclined to fudge, to tow the line for fear of the consequences. Enforcement is an expensive endeavor. While you may not have been approached by a warden, I guarantee that you have been eyeballed by them. You just didn't exhibit any behaviors that caused them any concern. They tend to approach people that are a little suspect in their actions, and those they have not had any eyeballs on. The true poacher types will not be deterred by enhanced enforcement or severe penalties. The key, is to keep their numbers very low.
Kirby is right about muskies, though, since they can be more difficult to successfully release, and harvest isn't really a thing, in the big picture. Education regarding barotrauma and water temperature, and hook cutting, are very important. |
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Location: Chisholm, MN | TCESOX - 9/5/2021 10:53 AM
North of 8 - 9/4/2021 9:19 PM
TCESOX - 9/4/2021 8:18 PM
If we have appropriate harvest regulations, and adequate enforcement, things will be fine. Harvest regs have been moving in the correct direction in recent years. There will always be meat hogs, but the culture is changing. Most newcomers to fishing have no problem with selective harvest and catch and release.
I agree but the part of the equation that is lacking in WI is adequate enforcement. Oneida County, with several hundred lakes and many miles of river and streams has only one warden dedicated to fish and game regulation enforcement. I fish spring, summer, fall and winter on the chain where I have lived full time for 6 years and have encountered a warden one time. Prior to that we had a seasonal place for 12 years and never was checked by a warden. If we want to preserve our resources, we need to invest in more enforcement. If that means higher license fees, so be it. The other thing is that if you know of limit violations, etc., call it in.
You are correct. That is what I meant by adequate enforcement. It doesn't have to be ball busting enforcement, just enough busts with fairly harsh penalties, to deter the majority of those inclined to fudge, to tow the line for fear of the consequences. Enforcement is an expensive endeavor. While you may not have been approached by a warden, I guarantee that you have been eyeballed by them. You just didn't exhibit any behaviors that caused them any concern. They tend to approach people that are a little suspect in their actions, and those they have not had any eyeballs on. The true poacher types will not be deterred by enhanced enforcement or severe penalties. The key, is to keep their numbers very low.
Kirby is right about muskies, though, since they can be more difficult to successfully release, and harvest isn't really a thing, in the big picture. Education regarding barotrauma and water temperature, and hook cutting, are very important.
One thing that I am not sure about is barotrauma. Steve can chime in. Supposedly muskies are different from many other species and are not as affected by barotrauma. But what we saw on vermilion this year was nothing short of a tragedy. So many very large muskies floating and really the only difference this year was the amount of people sharp shooting very deep fish all night. They hover over the top of fish and harass them until they bite. And the next morning there are a few floating. I found one that was 54.25, which a dnr employee measured, and heard of a 56.5 found as well. And they do it all season now too. The same dnr employee told me of a 52 that someone killed after they sharp shot it about 3 weeks ago. I see it as very harmful to the population. Another factor this year was the warm temps in June. If muskies aren’t affected by the change in depth, then it must have been the sudden change in water temperature they were exposed to by being pulled from 15’ or more up to surface temps of close to 80 degrees. My whole point is that if you are going to sharp shoot muskies in open water, please pass by the fish that are more than 10 feet below the surface and consider water releases as much as people. I’m advocating for more and more water releases and I’d like to see it become the norm. I like a nice picture like everyone else but not at the expense of the fish. |
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Location: Eagan, MN | Guess I’ll weigh-in since I’ve been a Livescope user for a couple years now.
If you believe the DNR, barotrauma doesn’t become an issue until a fish is caught from deeper than 25’ to 30’. Where I fish, these summertime basin dwellers seem to hold in the 12’-18’ depth zone, most often around 15’. Rarely are they below 20’ in the summertime, so doubtful floaters are being killed from barotrauma. More likely they are being ‘over-loved’ after being caught, bleed out from being gill hooked, or over-stressed in very warm water. Some floaters are intentionally killed by the ‘anti-musky’ crowd that number far greater than you would think. There have always been summertime floaters on V. While we hate that these fish die at the hands of anglers, this is not a new phenomenon.
And, for what it’s worth, I’m getting a bite from perhaps 1:15 muskies found with Livescope - not exactly results that would menace the muskie population. My results were probably better before I had Livescope. While a game changer in many ways, Livescope might only be shifting the fishing pressure around in the system, bringing pressure to areas that have historically allowed fish some degree of sanctuary from angling effort. Hours spent plying open water with Livescope means that shallow fish - once the target of pre-Livescope anglers - are getting a break, not only from pressure but also from the inadvertent mortality angling invariably brings. |
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Posts: 318
| All good information. I highly doubt I will ever be someone who trolls around the basin looking at LiveScope in order to spot fish. I would simply use it - like on LOTW - circling a rock structure as I am already casting to see if I am casting at a fish or simply casting at a pile of rocks. That is how I would like to use it. Simply to see if there is a chance of being productive.
Every example of LiveScope I have seen are usually open water or deep water settings. Are you guys seeing fish shallow as well? Does it work that well under those conditions? |
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | I'd bet some of the increased mortality is water temp and DO related, taking them from cooler waters, stressing the fish up into warm surface water, and then releases where the fish stays up there. |
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| I bought one last spring and I if I had to do it again I dont think I would invest the money in one again. I have not used it as much as I thought I would. Id rather be casting then staring at a screen. I think it will be useful for ice fishing when you are sitting there anyway. And I also think it will be cool in the fall while sucker fishing. You can keep an eye on your sucker and see if anything is around it. But for me it is a lot of money for just those two situations. |
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Posts: 68
| Tournament guys don't even hardly pre-fish anymore. I watched Pete Maina drive around for almost 2 hours one day before he finally stopped and fished. 360 and side imaging are a game changer and I don't necessarily agree with either. Totally taken the art of being a musky guy away. Guys drive around, mark a fish on side image, throw a couple of cast and move on to the next, have no problem cutting in front of guys on a spot to do it. It's totally here to stay though, so I guess we need to get used to it. As far as the sharp shooting, that is happening around my area as well. Hayward, WI area. Also guys are trolling the Thermocline as well and yanking those fish up into warm water on short lines going 4 MPH or greater. Is it an efficient way to catch fish? Absolutely, but as Kirby stated we shouldn't even be targeting those fish as I guarantee it's contributing to dead fish. Long story short, guys these days are more about the pictures and stories than putting in the work to gain knowledge and create the stories. Back in the day nobody said anything about what they were doing and you were able to keep certain things to yourself. Now a guy in my area can dissect 4 or 5 lakes in an afternoon without throwing a cast. |
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Location: Chisholm, MN | I think most of us have the right idea here. My main takeaway is that we need to normalize water releases and make them cool again. If you need a good picture of a big one, make it 20 seconds or less. |
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| Kirby Budrow - 9/8/2021 1:28 PM
I think most of us have the right idea here. My main takeaway is that we need to normalize water releases and make them cool again. If you need a good picture of a big one, make it 20 seconds or less.
Guy that lives on the same chain had an interesting suggestion after watching a group of three older guys spend several minutes taking photos, etc. with a fish that clearly was in the low 30s before finally returning it to the water. He suggested that you would be allowed to remove a fish from the water and measure it to see if it met he minimum, 40" on this chain, but if it did not you would have to immediately return to the water. You could hold the tail and take a photo in the water but no photos out of the water for fish under the minimum. Would prevent the spectacle of guys keeping a small fish out of the water while they pose, pass it around, etc. I think such a reg. would have a snow ball's proverbial chance, but, who knows. |
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| cdubs - 9/8/2021 11:03 AM
Tournament guys don't even hardly pre-fish anymore. I watched Pete Maina drive around for almost 2 hours one day before he finally stopped and fished. 360 and side imaging are a game changer and I don't necessarily agree with either. Totally taken the art of being a musky guy away. Guys drive around, mark a fish on side image, throw a couple of cast and move on to the next, have no problem cutting in front of guys on a spot to do it. It's totally here to stay though, so I guess we need to get used to it. As far as the sharp shooting, that is happening around my area as well. Hayward, WI area. Also guys are trolling the Thermocline as well and yanking those fish up into warm water on short lines going 4 MPH or greater. Is it an efficient way to catch fish? Absolutely, but as Kirby stated we shouldn't even be targeting those fish as I guarantee it's contributing to dead fish. Long story short, guys these days are more about the pictures and stories than putting in the work to gain knowledge and create the stories. Back in the day nobody said anything about what they were doing and you were able to keep certain things to yourself. Now a guy in my area can dissect 4 or 5 lakes in an afternoon without throwing a cast.
That is right on CDUBS!
IMO, 'Target Fishing' as they call it theses days all borders on being unethical as a fisherman, particularly when the muskies are in their deep water sanctuaries. Its destroying what's left of legendary lakes like Vermilion. Fish need a break, an escape from us, and now we don't allow it. Its really a shame in my eyes, and I think the worst is yet to come. There is no end in site to these electronics.
Stocking is down nearly everywhere for one reason or another. Muskie angling is up and more popular than ever. Mortality/Delayed mortality of adult fish will continue to go up. Its not a good combination. It was rare to see a floater years ago, now it seems to be quite common, and some BIG ones.
Climate changes create warmer epilimnion temperatures on an annual basis these days in the north. Historically the natural evolutionary process is not this quick. Most animals can't adapt fast enough to the current environmental changes going on. Rapid changes in environment lead to the extinction of certain species. I see muskies being on the low end of the survival rate due to increased warmer waters and their sensitivity to them. The don't exist naturally in the warmest areas of North America. They are an apex predator, and naturally exist as a low density population even in the most optimal environment. |
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Posts: 1023
| I think livescope is totally worth it and have one myself. I have bagged some nice fish jigging with it (not deeper than 25’. It is also great for casting open water bait relating muskies.
Times change and this new tech is very purposeful. Used properly and ethically with good water temps it is a great tool. It is not ubraid or unsporting imo. And from what I have seen, most days you will hook 1/20 of the fish u move. I was surprised by how many deep follows I was likely getting over the years unbeknownst to me. |
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| Wow. I now know I have heard it all. Thanks to Aldo Leopold and Pogo. "We have met the enemy and they are US. Good luck dudes. |
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Keith catching deep open water crappies recently.
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| fatturtle011 - 9/12/2021 6:53 PM
Wow. I now know I have heard it all. Thanks to Aldo Leopold and Pogo. "We have met the enemy and they are US. Good luck dudes.
Exactly! In most cases we destroy what we love! That is just the American way in general. Always searching for the next leg up instead of enjoying what is right in front of you. In the case of fishing, the fish really have no way to adapt. They are stuck in the same bowl for the rest of their lives. I remember 35 years ago catching big bluegills one right after another all over the place. Affordable power augers and electronics has made that almost non-existent these days because people can't control themselves. Same will hold true for muskies. Although with all of the information and science out there saying it's bad to jerk those fish up from the deep in warmer temps, guys will not be able to resist the urge to hover over them and try to jig them up. Ultimately killing the large fish in the system that have evaded us for so long out there. I'm not sure about most places in the world, but I know the fish in my area that get to the 48-50" range are well over 20 years old. Stock all you want, fish like that aren't replaceable. |
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| I can see a few old timers here are getting way too paranoid.
People said the same thing when those dam “ fish finders”came out years ago. |
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| I have it. Other than for crappies I only use it to find and define structures...especially extensions or lone rock humps that I didn't know were there. There is nothing more satisfying to me than identifying a new "spot" and having success on it the first time I come back and fish it. I love that aspect of it. The open water aspect doesn't interest me much and a part of me is a bit concerned about the fish having a place to rest/escape"away from the crowd". Time will tell if the old farts are correct in being concerned about it's impact. It is a game changer for sure no matter how you look at it and more fish will be caught because of it. |
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| On Saturday, the Larry Smith Show was about jigging for King salmon off the Milwaukee harbor. He had Live Scope and it showed the kings on the bottom and his bait bouncing between them. They certainly didn't hit it every time through but it gave them confidence to keep fishing the area and be patient. They caught six kings in a relatively small area.
I was fishing Sunday and in an area where I have caught fish and moved a lot more, I glanced down and saw what appeared to be two good sized musky on my Mega SI. They managed to resist the allure of the Fat B I had thrown over their heads. Knowing there are fish in an area is a huge asset but still need to get them to eat. Couple times I have seen musky in the shallows near my dock and they just watch the bucktail go right past their nose. |
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Location: deephaven mn | It's great because it shows you exactly how far of the weed line or rock line you actually are.
It may also confirms something i've known for years, this is a goood spot and there are muskies here but the are just not responding. |
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Mega 360.
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Now that I have a couple weeks using Humminbird mega side imaging and mega 360 imaging I'm stunned how much more efficient we are out there. We watched a musky chase around our school of crappies for half an hour. It did react to a muskie crankbait, but only for a couple feet. Eventually, it just swam off into the basin. We were in 18'. |
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Location: Elko - Lake Vermilion | As an Old Fart here,... I think it makes us Lazier and puts the fragile Muskie resource in more danger than it was, say 5 years ago. and yes people are harassing deep water fish in order to feed their Ego and take half a dozen pics.
A lot of floaters on V this year.
But hay,.. Anything to make our lives better......Eh ! Not for me.
I enjoy the thrill of the hunt and figuring things out for myself. I bought my last fish finder 6 yrs ago and really don't pay much attention to it except for temp, depth and structure.
To busy enjoying Gods great outdoors and not fixed on a screen.
G-Rome |
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Location: Chisholm, MN | Top H2O - 11/21/2021 5:50 PM
As an Old Fart here,... I think it makes us Lazier and puts the fragile Muskie resource in more danger than it was, say 5 years ago. and yes people are harassing deep water fish in order to feed their Ego and take half a dozen pics.
A lot of floaters on V this year.
But hay,.. Anything to make our lives better......Eh ! Not for me.
I enjoy the thrill of the hunt and figuring things out for myself. I bought my last fish finder 6 yrs ago and really don't pay much attention to it except for temp, depth and structure.
To busy enjoying Gods great outdoors and not fixed on a screen.
G-Rome
I have to agree, although I will be getting Mega Live this winter. I will not use it in the unethical way that most seem to be doing on V and killing many fish and getting glory shots.
The thing is, I caught 3 over 50 this year without it. And I didn't fish that much. I will admit side imaging helps me get on fish faster but it did not directly help me catch those 50 inchers this year. |
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Location: Duluth | I do think fish will adapt to the new pressure they are recieving in open and deep water. Going to be a lot of floaters along the way though |
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| Don't know much about the technology, wondering why it would lead to increased mortality? |
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Location: MN | Curious if guys have used it much for trolling to see where their baits are running at?
A buddy who has the Garmin hopped in once to help me get dive curves on my musky trolling baits, we didn't have his stable mount, just putting the pole in the water. This "setup" made it tough to find the lures and when we did they became even harder to see further than 40ft back. I've been curious if having a the actual stable mounting system, etc. would allow someone to see their baits. |
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Location: Chisholm, MN | North of 8 - 11/22/2021 12:01 PM
Don't know much about the technology, wondering why it would lead to increased mortality?
Pulling fish from 20-40 feet of water in hot water. Normally these fish were untouched until they came up shallow in July, if at all. Now people with no actual fishing skill can hover over a fish harassing it for hours until it bites. Like said above, there was an abnormally large amount of dead fish in June and July this year. This was a direct result of this type of fishing. |
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| Kirby Budrow - 11/22/2021 1:35 PM
North of 8 - 11/22/2021 12:01 PM
Don't know much about the technology, wondering why it would lead to increased mortality?
Pulling fish from 20-40 feet of water in hot water. Normally these fish were untouched until they came up shallow in July, if at all. Now people with no actual fishing skill can hover over a fish harassing it for hours until it bites. Like said above, there was an abnormally large amount of dead fish in June and July this year. This was a direct result of this type of fishing.
Thank you for the response. |
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| Mak51 - 11/22/2021 12:48 PM
Curious if guys have used it much for trolling to see where their baits are running at?
A buddy who has the Garmin hopped in once to help me get dive curves on my musky trolling baits, we didn't have his stable mount, just putting the pole in the water. This "setup" made it tough to find the lures and when we did they became even harder to see further than 40ft back. I've been curious if having a the actual stable mounting system, etc. would allow someone to see their baits.
One of the guys in our chapter says that he can see his baits, as well as fish that are following them, with his Garmin. I don't know anything about what baits he's using, or how far back he is trolling. Very good stick, and not one to embellish or B.S. |
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Location: new richmond, wi. & isle, mn | The new MN state record was caught and died last night. What I hear is they're live scopers. Drive around till they find an active fish up off the bottom. I've heard from reliable sources, some days in the cold they drive around and don't even cast. |
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| Kirby Budrow - 11/22/2021 8:46 AM
I have to agree, although I will be getting Mega Live this winter. I will not use it I have to agree, although I will be getting Mega Live this winter. I will not use it in the unethical way that most seem to be doing on V and killing many fish and getting glory shots.
"use it in the unethical"
Not sure what you mean with this comment.
Edited by Abu7000 11/25/2021 11:50 AM
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | MN Muskie Expo Facebook:
Nolan Sprengeler is in Mille Lacs Lake.
YhetstSer16doahy of312at rf7i:846 AM · Instagram ·
The rumors are true! On November 22nd I set out on the last trip of my season with Kevin Kray and Zack Skoglund to chase the queen. At about 9pm I felt that tap on my Thorne Bros 9’6” XXH I’ve been searching for all fall. After a quick battle and a few ridiculous head shakes we had it in the bag. I didn’t realize how giant this fish was until I pulled it out of the net and immediately called Kevin over to assist with the buddy pictures. It measured an incredible 57.75” in length with a 29” girth. The next hour or so was spent trying to get her to release. Eventually we realized this was not going to happen and made the decision to bring it to a certified scale and crush the Minnesota State Record. She weighed 55 lbs and 14.8 oz. Huge shout out to Austin Tausk and Kyle Dorr for helping me find a place to get her weighed and helping with that process. Also Randy at the UPS Store was the man for being so cool about weighing it for us. I’m so incredibly blessed to be apart of this journey with my best friends.
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Posts: 424
Location: MN | Mak51 - 11/22/2021 12:48 PM
Curious if guys have used it much for trolling to see where their baits are running at?
A buddy who has the Garmin hopped in once to help me get dive curves on my musky trolling baits, we didn't have his stable mount, just putting the pole in the water. This "setup" made it tough to find the lures and when we did they became even harder to see further than 40ft back. I've been curious if having a the actual stable mounting system, etc. would allow someone to see their baits.
Yes, you can see your baits. I usually use it to see/adjust running depth and then either turn it off or face it forward and scan left/right. I have left it on the baits some, but have yet to see a follow that way. |
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Location: 31 | Unquestionably there would be an advantage trolling with a state of the art scope system too ~ literally watching your lures, knowing the precise depth, instant they are fouled, or which ones are being followed would increase efficiency exponentially.
Though not as relevant for targeting individual fish casting, we have been targeting individual fish with our side scan while trolling almost since its inception. Once we figured out what to look for, it absolutely changed the game ~ more times than I can count we have enticed fish to bite, or left an area because there were simply no numbers present.
Regarding the new Minnesota record ~ congratulations to the anglers!
Edited by Jerry Newman 12/27/2021 11:29 AM
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Posts: 32922
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Landry - 9/13/2021 10:49 PM
I can see a few old timers here are getting way too paranoid.
People said the same thing when those dam “ fish finders”came out years ago.
This 'old guy' embraces the new tech. Been cool as can be for me. |
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Posts: 1266
Location: Walker, MN | Kirby Budrow - 11/22/2021 1:35 PM
North of 8 - 11/22/2021 12:01 PM
Don't know much about the technology, wondering why it would lead to increased mortality?
Pulling fish from 20-40 feet of water in hot water. Normally these fish were untouched until they came up shallow in July, if at all. Now people with no actual fishing skill can hover over a fish harassing it for hours until it bites. Like said above, there was an abnormally large amount of dead fish in June and July this year. This was a direct result of this type of fishing.
Don't forget that it was about the warmest June ever, surface layer was 20'+ when it's typically 10'. I'd never target fish more than 15' down, but let's hope some just got confused this year with the unusually warm water, and deeper fish. If the barotrauma doesn't get 'em, the thermal shock sure isn't good for them either.
You can see your bait and the fish you're targeting with Live, let's leave the deep ones alone! |
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Location: Chisholm, MN | Masqui-ninja - 1/4/2022 9:08 PM
Kirby Budrow - 11/22/2021 1:35 PM
North of 8 - 11/22/2021 12:01 PM
Don't know much about the technology, wondering why it would lead to increased mortality?
Pulling fish from 20-40 feet of water in hot water. Normally these fish were untouched until they came up shallow in July, if at all. Now people with no actual fishing skill can hover over a fish harassing it for hours until it bites. Like said above, there was an abnormally large amount of dead fish in June and July this year. This was a direct result of this type of fishing.
Don't forget that it was about the warmest June ever, surface layer was 20'+ when it's typically 10'. I'd never target fish more than 15' down, but let's hope some just got confused this year with the unusually warm water, and deeper fish. If the barotrauma doesn't get 'em, the thermal shock sure isn't good for them either.
You can see your bait and the fish you're targeting with Live, let's leave the deep ones alone!
Agreed that water temp was a huge factor. Unfortunately people don't have the discipline to leave those fish alone.
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Posts: 2370
Location: Chisholm, MN | sworrall - 12/28/2021 2:28 PM
Landry - 9/13/2021 10:49 PM
I can see a few old timers here are getting way too paranoid.
People said the same thing when those dam “ fish finders”came out years ago.
This 'old guy' embraces the new tech. Been cool as can be for me.
I'm 35. Am I an old timer now? |
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Posts: 1266
Location: Walker, MN | Agreed that water temp was a huge factor. Unfortunately people don't have the discipline to leave those fish alone.
I think some people are just clueless about the effects of pulling fish from deep water, end up learning the hard way. Important to try and educate.. muskie clubs, internet forum, Faceload etc.
Edited by Masqui-ninja 1/5/2022 11:19 AM
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Posts: 213
| My primary fishing partner installed a Garmin Live Scope unit in his boat this past summer. My rig is networked for Hummingbird so I waited for Live Imaging to roll out this past fall. So far we have been using the units in open mater during two specific seasonal time slots that correspond to cisco movements. Typically we take turns casting while the other controls the boat. We have found that the fish higher in the water column typically 12 feet or less are far more aggressive so we focus on those fish. Our experience also suggests that approximately 1 out of 15 fish shows an active interest in the bait presentation. As far as mortality this year we boated 26 muskies between the two boats with 20 being in his boat. Of those we lost one fish that inhaled a crankbait while trolling in 12' of water and was unrelated to sharpshooting. BTW - I also took my bumpboard out of the boat and now use a floating stick if I or my guest feels the need to measure.
Edited by pstrombe 1/7/2022 7:45 PM
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Posts: 2370
Location: Chisholm, MN | Well I just bit the bullet and went to the dark side with livescope. Was going to get mega live but opted for the garmin instead. I guess I’m a bit of a hypocrite but it’s a very cool technology and it can be used safely. Like Phil says, leave the deep fish alone in the summer. I just jimmy rigged up an ice set up for it but mainly looking forward to summer. |
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Posts: 4080
Location: Elko - Lake Vermilion | Traitor  |
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Posts: 2370
Location: Chisholm, MN | Top H2O - 1/9/2022 1:44 PM
Traitor :o
Yeah watch, I won’t catch a thing this year… |
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Posts: 32922
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Kirby Budrow - 1/10/2022 8:57 PM
Top H2O - 1/9/2022 1:44 PM
Traitor :o
Yeah watch, I won’t catch a thing this year…
I'd bet against that one. Just sayin'. |
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Posts: 401
Location: Selkirk, Manitoba | Very interesting to listen to Matt Seifert discuss some of this stuff on Backlash Podcast (ep 149). Matt tells it pretty unfiltered here in regards to this technology and his worry about it. Up to now the folks that were fishing the open and deeper water bite were of the hardcore variety and already well versed and dedicated as to fish first over personal glory - challenging themselves and searching for that edge and separate themselves from spot fisherman or trolling on sort of an unfished fontier. That frontier is now front and centre. As he says, this technology is now taking all the guesswork out of finding these open water and deep basin fish - and now just working fish until they bite and being comparatively successful at it. His point about "young/new guys" being able to do this I think is probably making the point of seeking glory/personal affirmation at the expense of perhaps preserving fish by not pushing physiological boundaries to the limit - the result being the next day floaters and/or heavily pressured fish with nowhere to hide. Brad from Musky Mayhem comes in at the end and makes the point that musky folks (young or old) tend to be like Matt and really will show the same care and concern about the fishery. We all hope that is true.
In speaking to a lodge owner about this he is scared stiff about what this technology is going to do to the muskies in their area (which are of course naturally reproducing in NW Ontario and every lost fish of any size is a good spawning year lottery and decade+ to replace). Besides the temperature and oxygen situation above, keep in mind that areas with sustained current mean little to no stratification which equals potential for muskies in very deep water at all times of year. They are vulnerable to being caught and stress from barotrauma being caught at depth does affect them; even though their gut is connected to their air bladder this system is not the same as that as in the less evolved trout/char that can expel air more easily. In other words with this technology and misuse there is the possibility of serious irreparable harm (and to pike too).
I encourage folks to listen to Matt. I relate in many ways as far as musky fishing being something a bit more difficult and challenging than hunting (which comes pretty easy now). Unlike hunting where animals can't hide and the gotta eat (meaning very vulnerable if you do your homework), musky fishing had that element of randomness that was out of one's control and they had the ability to disappear and could choose not to bite. That ability to disappear is gone. We need the education to start now and some of the well know youtube guys using this tech need to get on that.
A few episodes earlier it was also interesting hearing Wegner (ep 144) talking about how if it wasn't good for business he would be showing anybody anything, he would just fish.
Edited by Angling Oracle 1/31/2022 3:30 PM
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| I question the comment about young guys, seeking glory, etc. Most of the young anglers I know are very much into preserving the resource. While different species, the meat hunters that want to take home a 5 gallon bucket of panfish from the chain where I live tend to be middle aged guys, who hate the 10-10-25 limit on panfish that went in place 5 years ago. There were two groups in particular that stopped fishing the lake I live on when that happened, and they had not been young in a long time. |
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Posts: 401
Location: Selkirk, Manitoba | North of 8 - 1/31/2022 1:46 PM
I question the comment about young guys, seeking glory, etc. Most of the young anglers I know are very much into preserving the resource. While different species, the meat hunters that want to take home a 5 gallon bucket of panfish from the chain where I live tend to be middle aged guys, who hate the 10-10-25 limit on panfish that went in place 5 years ago. There were two groups in particular that stopped fishing the lake I live on when that happened, and they had not been young in a long time.
I would say my comments are a blend of what Matt was saying - and my interpretation and unscripted comments by him in his defence, and my own re. glory in my own experiences locally and the social media phenomenon (Instagram/Facebook photos more than Youtube). Young may also mean new to the chase and not necessarily age. When I use the word glory I mean the positive affirmation of others - this could just catching one musky in one's life and getting a pic, or trying to get the biggest one that year in amongst a group or whatever. It is not necessarily a bad thing and one evolves/matures in this regard over time where one develops ethical boundaries that one attempts to avoid crossing. My sense of what Matt was trying to say is there are folks using this tech that have bypassed the hard knocks stage and maybe some of the ethics are not fully matured - again, my interpretation and probably best to listen for yourself.
Brad's comment at the end that all musky fisherman tend to be a different breed and care about the fish is probably closer to the reality. It doesn't negate the fact that floaters are being found -- based on the anecdotes on Vermillion above it is clearly an issue of concern. It is changing what musky fishing is and adjustments will need to be made.
My overall point is we really do need this deep water thing to be educated as part of the show and tell in catching musky with the technology on youtube and in media in general. Nothing about it is a secret anymore as much as anyone that has it would like to believe. I only have the oldest humminbird side imaging and it is extremely useful - the gen 4 is over the top. Livescope is sharpshooting for fish...
In respect to any fish that one can keep it then becomes a regulatory issue. We have the same issue here with crappie in that this technology makes them very vulnerable.
Edited by Angling Oracle 1/31/2022 2:30 PM
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Posts: 356
| Interesting/good stuff.Glad to hear this conversation.Important one.
Saw the comment about boards vs in water rulers.Also a needed discussion IMO.FWIW,sadly I've learned that the fact a fish is 50 instead of 49 doesn't grow my unit an inch.Your experience may vary of course. |
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | dickP - 2/1/2022 9:06 AM
Interesting/good stuff.Glad to hear this conversation.Important one.
Saw the comment about boards vs in water rulers.Also a needed discussion IMO.FWIW,sadly I've learned that the fact a fish is 50 instead of 49 doesn't grow my unit an inch.Your experience may vary of course.
Same here, unfortunately. |
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Posts: 1266
Location: Walker, MN | I keep getting pop-up adds for "adding inches", just assumed it was for some hot new muskie bait. |
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| Reminds me of the observation on why women are not good at estimating the length of fish. Men have been lying to them about what is 6 inches for years. |
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Posts: 2370
Location: Chisholm, MN | North of 8 - 2/1/2022 1:07 PM
Reminds me of the observation on why women are not good at estimating the length of fish. Men have been lying to them about what is 6 inches for years.
They practice lying about 6" so they can execute a better lie about the cost of Livescope as well. |
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| Kirby Budrow - 2/2/2022 10:22 AM
North of 8 - 2/1/2022 1:07 PM
Reminds me of the observation on why women are not good at estimating the length of fish. Men have been lying to them about what is 6 inches for years.
They practice lying about 6" so they can execute a better lie about the cost of Livescope as well.
Hmmm, since in an earlier post on this thread you mentioned buying a Livescope this winter, is that the voice of experience speaking ;>) |
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Posts: 2370
Location: Chisholm, MN | North of 8 - 2/2/2022 4:45 PM
Kirby Budrow - 2/2/2022 10:22 AM
North of 8 - 2/1/2022 1:07 PM
Reminds me of the observation on why women are not good at estimating the length of fish. Men have been lying to them about what is 6 inches for years.
They practice lying about 6" so they can execute a better lie about the cost of Livescope as well.
Hmmm, since in an earlier post on this thread you mentioned buying a Livescope this winter, is that the voice of experience speaking ;> )
Fortunately I’m the one in charge of the money in my house 
But she got tired of hearing me talking about it and just said order it! |
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Posts: 32922
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Kirby Budrow - 2/2/2022 5:38 PM
North of 8 - 2/2/2022 4:45 PM
Kirby Budrow - 2/2/2022 10:22 AM
North of 8 - 2/1/2022 1:07 PM
Reminds me of the observation on why women are not good at estimating the length of fish. Men have been lying to them about what is 6 inches for years.
They practice lying about 6" so they can execute a better lie about the cost of Livescope as well.
Hmmm, since in an earlier post on this thread you mentioned buying a Livescope this winter, is that the voice of experience speaking ;> )
Fortunately I’m the one in charge of the money in my house
But she got tired of hearing me talking about it and just said order it!
This has worked for me in the past. Keith and I just ordered Mega Live, will be cool to couple with Mega 360. |
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Posts: 4080
Location: Elko - Lake Vermilion | OK,
I'm going to go out on the limb of a BIG tree and say that some of you guys are Red Blooded Nerds !
Nothing really wrong with that, I just feel like watching a screen most of the day takes away from the enjoyment of being out there in God's Country and figuring things out without the help of Thousands of dollars of electronics.
I'm totally happy to know what the water temp and depth are, and that's about it.
Whatever makes ya happy. |
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Posts: 2370
Location: Chisholm, MN | Top H2O - 2/4/2022 10:39 AM
OK,
I'm going to go out on the limb of a BIG tree and say that some of you guys are Red Blooded Nerds !
Nothing really wrong with that, I just feel like watching a screen most of the day takes away from the enjoyment of being out there in God's Country and figuring things out without the help of Thousands of dollars of electronics.
I'm totally happy to know what the water temp and depth are, and that's about it.
Whatever makes ya happy.
Yeah maybe. I've used my livescope 4 days on the ice so far and am completely satisfied though. It makes it more fun honestly. I don't care for ice fishing as much these days but I really enjoy staring at that screen. You can learn so much about what's going on down there. |
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| I just have mega SI/DI and I like seeing stuff that I have not seen before or seeing a sharper image of it. As to ice fishing, can't imagine going back to what I did 50+ years ago, just sitting in the shack jigging. It is frustrating sometimes, like a couple days ago right before I quit, had a fish come up multiple times to check out my jig but would not hit it. Would really liked to have had more than a Vexilar to know what it was. |
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Posts: 2370
Location: Chisholm, MN | North of 8 - 2/4/2022 3:04 PM
I just have mega SI/DI and I like seeing stuff that I have not seen before or seeing a sharper image of it. As to ice fishing, can't imagine going back to what I did 50+ years ago, just sitting in the shack jigging. It is frustrating sometimes, like a couple days ago right before I quit, had a fish come up multiple times to check out my jig but would not hit it. Would really liked to have had more than a Vexilar to know what it was.
That's exactly right. You can see how the fish is reacting to your bait from a distance, and whether or not it's even looking at your bait. I'm amazed at how far away a fish will see your bait and react to the way you're jigging. Also, just to see which direction it came from and seeing it farther away gives you a heads up to be ready. The first night I used it for crappies, I noticed that the fish would come from any direction. But when the sun went down and it was completely dark, every fish came from the same direction. Not that that would make you catch more fish but it was just interesting to see what was going on down there. The other thing I've come to learn is that fish are often suspended higher than where my jig is. You can see them coming and they were almost always above my jig. They would start to swim down to come look at it. I guess I learned that I can leave my jig higher than I ever would have when just using my vexilar.
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| What you are seeing would seem to make sense. With a Vexilar, the cone is very narrow up close to the hole so a fish would have to be pretty much centered under the hole in the first 4 or so feet. Maybe fewer fish are actually down deeper than it appears on a flasher, given the nature of that type of sonar?
I am a long way from a computer geek but I love using specialized tools in my wood shop. Every so often I think there is not much out there that would do a better job than the cabinets, tool chests and racks full of tools I already have but on a regular basis I am pleasantly surprised. For example, recently bought a jig to use with my router that can not only cut precise circles up to 54 inches (already had a homemade jig) but can cut ellipses so that I can make signs, etc. in that shape. It is clever, simple. Electronics are like that. If something does a better job at what you want to do, why wouldn't you use it? |
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Posts: 32922
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Kirby Budrow - 2/4/2022 3:26 PM
North of 8 - 2/4/2022 3:04 PM
I just have mega SI/DI and I like seeing stuff that I have not seen before or seeing a sharper image of it. As to ice fishing, can't imagine going back to what I did 50+ years ago, just sitting in the shack jigging. It is frustrating sometimes, like a couple days ago right before I quit, had a fish come up multiple times to check out my jig but would not hit it. Would really liked to have had more than a Vexilar to know what it was.
That's exactly right. You can see how the fish is reacting to your bait from a distance, and whether or not it's even looking at your bait. I'm amazed at how far away a fish will see your bait and react to the way you're jigging. Also, just to see which direction it came from and seeing it farther away gives you a heads up to be ready. The first night I used it for crappies, I noticed that the fish would come from any direction. But when the sun went down and it was completely dark, every fish came from the same direction. Not that that would make you catch more fish but it was just interesting to see what was going on down there. The other thing I've come to learn is that fish are often suspended higher than where my jig is. You can see them coming and they were almost always above my jig. They would start to swim down to come look at it. I guess I learned that I can leave my jig higher than I ever would have when just using my vexilar.
Been using a camera for 12 years doing exactly that except for the expanded water column view. I have the Mega Live coming, looking forward to teaming it with the 360. |
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Posts: 1266
Location: Walker, MN | It seems, a lot of us have cameras, but few have good set-ups for panning, stow and deploy, small screens etc. to take full advantage of the technology. I could definitely see rigging up a better camera set-up, learn a lot with a camera down. |
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Posts: 32922
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | I'll have 2 cameras on the boat this year, a MarCum Pursuit and a Quest. |
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