|
|
Posts: 20273
Location: oswego, il | I know many people say color doesn't matter, or some say contrast matters. Could it be that in many cases we aren't putting enough fish in the boat on a given day to put that part of the pattern together? I get the whole study of color under water and the Muskie's ability to see color in it. LSC has been a place where time and time again color made the difference. I have seen gold work in dirty water and in the same water in a different year around the same time pearl. I have seen black work and white not and in a these cases with the same bait out in a different color does not work. Put another of the same color and it works. I am talking the same bait different color and putting a second bait in the color that's firing and it's firing. You wouldn't think color would make a difference in limited visibility but it does there. I remember being out there one time we caught a few and talked to a charter captain to did really well and said the only baits that fired were mostly red. I have also talked to guys who fish lotw that have had similar results with bucktails. I know many people say color doesn't matter, maybe there are times it doesn't but there are times when it's a big part of it. I am fsctoring in that depth, speed and the other components are right, then I think color can play a big factor.
Edited by ToddM 1/21/2021 10:16 AM
|
|
| |
|
Posts: 4053
Location: Land of the Musky | From my PRO staffers for almost 20 years now, Blue and Black are some of the best producers. From a sales point of view, which I take far far more serious...  But LOL blue is my WORST selling color! It funny, in the lure world the saying is, "Colors sell customers". And they do. Go out and buy some blue lures and you might be surprised with your results...
Edited by Tackle Industries 1/21/2021 10:18 AM
|
|
| |
|
Posts: 426
Location: Perryville, MO | If I could only flip one color of jig the rest of my life for bass without a doubt it would be blue and black. Of course, I'll throw green pumpkin every once-and-a-while and many times a swim jig will be white for me, but blue and black remain a staple for a good reason. So...it makes sense to me that blue is likely overlooked too often for us in the muskie game. (For whatever it's worth, if it's a senko on my line then no doubt it's some shade of green.)
While I've read a bunch of the info that Steve has pointed us to over the years with regard to color (both as it changes in depth and how fish may perceive it) I'm as confused as I ever was and rely on conventional wisdom to make the predictable choices. Background (the sky) and water clarity guide my choices. White mostly (because of the lake I fish and it's proven success based on forage), black (because of contrast), or anything loud/bright (because the water is chocolate soup).
In other words, I don't know anything Todd and I'll read better responses and ponder some more on it. But my pontification always leads me back to contrast. |
|
| |
|
| Tackle Industries - 1/21/2021 10:17 AM
From my PRO staffers for almost 20 years now, Blue and Black are some of the best producers. From a sales point of view, which I take far far more serious... But LOL blue is my WORST selling color! It funny, in the lure world the saying is, "Colors sell customers". And they do. Go out and buy some blue lures and you might be surprised with your results...
If I remember the story correctly, the 50+ pound musky Tom Gelb caught was on a Harley Davidson blue crankbait. |
|
| |
|
Posts: 4080
Location: Elko - Lake Vermilion | North of 8 - 1/21/2021 11:39 AM
Tackle Industries - 1/21/2021 10:17 AM
From my PRO staffers for almost 20 years now, Blue and Black are some of the best producers. From a sales point of view, which I take far far more serious... But LOL blue is my WORST selling color! It funny, in the lure world the saying is, "Colors sell customers". And they do. Go out and buy some blue lures and you might be surprised with your results...
If I remember the story correctly, the 50+ pound musky Tom Gelb caught was on a Harley Davidson blue crankbait.
That's because it leaked Oil !  |
|
| |
|
Posts: 35
| Anything with B.A.T. |
|
| |
|
Posts: 2388
Location: Chisholm, MN | I think you're spot on. There isn't enough data recorded. St. Clair is probably the only place where a study would even work given the amount of fish caught per year, and variability in water color. I think that trolling would be the only way to study it as well since strikes from casters largely depends on the way each person works the bait. Put together a study from LSC trollers and I will believe color matters. I think it might matter a little, but not as much as people think. Just my opinion obviously, but the lack of data is the problem I have with it. |
|
| |
|
Posts: 1806
| I like white with a dab of red around the gill area. Can't tell you why, but it works for me. |
|
| |
|
Location: Vilas | I use to troll the Madison chain alot. In 1998 a clown colored DR would catch 3 to 1 over anything else. The following year it never got bit, it was a perch or sucker color that got all the action. The next year, color didnt matter in the least, but had to be a jointed DR. I cant say I seen a difference in water color from year to year......so, I have no answers. |
|
| |
|
Posts: 20273
Location: oswego, il | Kirby Budrow - 1/21/2021 12:37 PM
I think you're spot on. There isn't enough data recorded. St. Clair is probably the only place where a study would even work given the amount of fish caught per year, and variability in water color. I think that trolling would be the only way to study it as well since strikes from casters largely depends on the way each person works the bait. Put together a study from LSC trollers and I will believe color matters. I think it might matter a little, but not as much as people think. Just my opinion obviously, but the lack of data is the problem I have with it.
What's even more interesting is that I have seen color make a difference there even in the muddiest water. Like I said one time gold with black bars was working another year pearl, swapping to an identical.bait and color produced fish. Another instance in the muddy water a black hardhead. White one would not catch fish until I put a black tail on it then it caught 3. |
|
| |
|
Posts: 198
| As long as it's orange and black I'm good. |
|
| |
|
Posts: 32954
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | A small difference (not noticed all the time) in overall water clarity can make a LARGE difference in what the fish are seeing. Sky conditions average from one trip to another...a big variable. Time of year due to sun angle, two weeks can make a big difference. Think light penetration and source and it will make more sense. Depth is a huge variable, if you are running the lure 6' on one day or trip and 9 on another, that can mean as much as 30% of the color being filtered out. Orange can be yellow base with red to tint or red base with yellow to tint. Big difference in 6' of water between the two. Black is the darkest color, the result of the absence or complete absorption of visible light, si is always going to be contrasting with the background, even at night.
Sometimes muddy doesn't mean hard to see as much as color being filtered out. What the bait looks like in very low light will tell you what's going on there.
White objects fully reflect and scatter all the visible wavelengths of light while red is the first to be absorbed, so much of the time red is black or close to it. |
|
| |
|
Posts: 2082
| what I do know is what appear to be identical baits (to us) definitely don't get identical result...see this all the time trolling
|
|
| |
|
Location: Athens, Ohio | Interesting article on the subject:
https://www.mepps.com/mepps-tactics/article/color-technology-what-yo...
m |
|
| |
|
Posts: 20273
Location: oswego, il | IAJustin - 1/21/2021 3:09 PM
what I do know is what appear to be identical baits (to us) definitely don't get identical result...see this all the time trolling
I agree with that. In my instances however I am catching fish on one bait and color and I have the same bait out and a different color not catching fish. I then put out the same bait and color of the one catching fish and that one is now firing as well. Seen this scenario many times. LSC is different in that if fish are biting making the right choices can give you near instant feedback. In the cases I mentioned it didn't take 15 minutes to know color made the difference. |
|
| |
|
Posts: 1285
Location: Walker, MN | Troll multiple lines with different colors out for a whole season and tell me that color doesn't matter..
It's less scientific when were casting, because of all of the other variables. Whatever gives you confidence is always better.
Edited by Masqui-ninja 1/21/2021 4:11 PM
|
|
| |
|
Posts: 32954
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Of course color matters, vision is a very important factor in how muskies attack and capture prey. They need to see it for maximum success. 'Preference' is not the best term, it's what they can see best that gets bit.
Same thing with above water predators, but since there's no water to break down color so it's much more simple, like snowshoe hares turning white in the winter. |
|
| |
|
Posts: 2388
Location: Chisholm, MN | sworrall - 1/21/2021 4:18 PM
Of course color matters, vision is a very important factor in how muskies attack and capture prey. They need to see it for maximum success. 'Preference' is not the best term, it's what they can see best that gets bit.
Same thing with above water predators, but since there's no water to break down color so it's much more simple, like snowshoe hares turning white in the winter.
The point of a white hare makes sense when thinking about a predator that is looking for prey that’s sitting still trying to camouflage itself. But if a bucktail of any color is whizzing by a muskies face, he will know it’s there. Even if it’s blind, it can still eat it. So the fish would have to prefer a color over another that day for it to decide to chase and eat it. I don’t really see that as a reality. A fish is not that discriminative. Again, just my opinion. The way I look at it is maybe there is an obvious color that the fish doesn’t like. It’s completely obvious to the fish that this is not food. I don’t know. |
|
| |
|
Posts: 32954
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Kirby Budrow - 1/21/2021 5:22 PM
sworrall - 1/21/2021 4:18 PM
Of course color matters, vision is a very important factor in how muskies attack and capture prey. They need to see it for maximum success. 'Preference' is not the best term, it's what they can see best that gets bit.
Same thing with above water predators, but since there's no water to break down color so it's much more simple, like snowshoe hares turning white in the winter.
The point of a white hare makes sense when thinking about a predator that is looking for prey that’s sitting still trying to camouflage itself. But if a bucktail of any color is whizzing by a muskies face, he will know it’s there. Even if it’s blind, it can still eat it. So the fish would have to prefer a color over another that day for it to decide to chase and eat it. I don’t really see that as a reality. A fish is not that discriminative. Again, just my opinion. The way I look at it is maybe there is an obvious color that the fish doesn’t like. It’s completely obvious to the fish that this is not food. I don’t know.
It's not actually the color or preference for color. That's an ever-changing landscape under water, and there's no standard for paint colors. In the exact same water at the exact same depth green paint can go from yellow-ish to grey as a cloud goes by in seconds. If that bucktail is against a grey-ish background (the sky when clouds cover the sun, for example), it will not be very visible. Same day, same conditions, a red/black would leap out at 'em. Add to that the fact muskies are myopic. It's well accepted that muskies are sight feeders in the final attack, yet you are right, they will know a bucktail is there, those things really create a ruckus under water. |
|
| |
|
Posts: 1285
Location: Walker, MN | Well, if we could agree that contrast could matter, and a fish might respond negatively to a certain color...
Yes, I'm not sure myself that a certain color can trigger a feeding response in a muskie...though i'm not ruling it out. I personally believe I've seen this in other predatory fish at times. I don't know either.
|
|
| |
|
Posts: 3915
| No debate to me, its settled, color matters. More than that, subtle color matters. Check this...
when I lived in the Yoop I was near some flooded mine ponds full of timber, muskies, bass and walleye. I mean chock full of fish. And timber. There were no landings and nobody with a nice boat would ever try to launch. I fished one particular pond a couple times a week for almost 2 years. Water was always gin clear. Always. Here's what I learned......
Rule #1 - If the bass chase it the muskies will, too. Conversely, If the bass ignore it so will the muskies.
I could always see bass hanging out near shallow structure. They often chased my Suicks, Top Raiders and Poes JPots. But when they didn't I knew to size down and slower to twitching suspending cranks. When that didn't work it was Bucher 700s and GhostTails. If those didn't work then it was all hot pink Mepps Muskie Killers. If that didn't work it was brown/silver and such Muskie Killers, more natural colors, but big flash. If that didn't work it was all black Muskie Killers, starting with yellow dots on the blade. If that didn't work it was either all black with green letters or all black with yellow letters.
I would roll down thru that sequence within an hour or so. I could always see how the bass responded, always. And as soon as I landed on a bait the bass chased I caught muskies, too. It often came down to black blades with yellow letters vs black blades with green letters. Now, remember, I'm fishing this water about every other day, on average. Sometimes I fished it every day for a week (I brought my boat to work with me.). Anyway, I totally believe, by experience, that colors matter. I saw it myself.
Change change change until they chase the bait. Bass are a terrific barometer for what the muskies want. |
|
| |
|
Posts: 720
| The color that is working best is usually the one we forgot to bring. |
|
| |
|
Posts: 32954
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | A lack of response is usually corresponding with a lack of stimulus. I think not necessarily a rejection as much as that. I have watched hundreds of hours of muskies and pike under the ice with an Aqua-View, and it's really interesting to watch what gets them to chase and when. There's a disturbing amount of time when absolutely nothing works, zero response at all. I've had many esox blast up to a moving lure or minnow trying to hit it, stop dead and look the wrong direction--- yet still are all fired up. Get that lure above them, far enough away and move it, and they see it, lock on, stutter along a bit, and then attack. Sometimes it has to be completely still after they lock on or they take off.
Once had a really big muskie into the low 50's mess with a crappie jig for about 15 minutes. It actually hit the thing in a really interesting sort of waffling of the jaws motion, and I had it hooked for about 30 seconds until the tiny hook pulled out. That fish swam off and returned when I jigged several times. |
|
| |
|
Location: Eastern Ontario | I've caught hundreds of muskies on Firetiger Suicks the best ones have no paint left. If it moves it's food. |
|
| |
|
Posts: 32954
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | horsehunter - 1/21/2021 6:16 PM
I've caught hundreds of muskies on Firetiger Suicks the best ones have no paint left. If it moves it's food.
Sometimes. Other times is inexplicably totally ignored. That's the beauty of this ridiculous sport. Drives me nutz. |
|
| |
|
Posts: 2388
Location: Chisholm, MN | Well, I have a million baits in all different colors so hopefully I’m wrong! |
|
| |
|
Location: Eastern Ontario | I really can't imagine pulling my brown perch Fatty past a muskie and her saying that's brown perch I'm gona wait for a glitter perch. I believe success depends on location and timing. I've fished a lot of tournaments Muskies Canada calls them Outings some where many fish were caught and some where few fish were caught, but never one where the fish were all caught on the same colour. |
|
| |
|
Posts: 32954
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Kirby Budrow - 1/21/2021 6:32 PM
Well, I have a million baits in all different colors so hopefully I’m wrong!
I think that makes you right...I have a similar number so by sheer commitment we have to be right. |
|
| |
|
Location: Eastern Ontario | I've fished days with my Suick on on rod and a Rob Dey spinnerbait on another while my partner cycled through a bushel of baits some days we both catch fish somedays we are both skunked. I can't remember often being outfished by someone wasting time changing baits. |
|
| |
|
Posts: 20273
Location: oswego, il | Another thing I will say is that sometimes color is general or not specific. I have seen days where say anything goldish, yellow or perch with those colors will work. Days where everything between blue silver and hot perch. Then there are those days when it's one color and one color only. I think having certain abilities to have the near instant feedback catching many fish in a day is the only way you can really tell. It's not feedback you can get if you catch 1 or 2 fish in a day which ironically is a good day of musky fishing. |
|
| |
|
Posts: 1760
Location: new richmond, wi. & isle, mn | I truly think every bait is unique. I specifically remember years ago trolling walleye with my dad and family. Caught a couple fish on a perch shad rap. Soon we had four identical shad raps out. Same bait caught all our fish. Didn't matter where we put it in the spread. Seen the the same with muskies trolling. At times it's the one bait. Down rod or on a board. Those magic bulldawgs or swim dawgs you just keep welding back together till they're done. To our eyes they run the same as others. So called magic baits, I believe aren't magic by color, but are magic by a somewhat different vibration or something we can't distinguish. Color can be a variable at times, but I've ran a hot white double ten day and night and it still outfished black.
That being said. I too have way to many baits. You never know when they next magic one emerges. I have a garage full that may never pass the grade.. |
|
| |
|
Location: Eastern Ontario | So when your trolling along and put out a new colour and immediately catch a fish is it because you put out the magic colour or you were in a different time and place. The best day trolling I have experienced on the Larry was a couple of years back was the Sept. full moon with 4 fish over 50 in the boat. I trolled a brown perch Fatty (my confidence lure) all day and into the night Billy trolled his confidence lure a glitter perch Fatty all day and into the night. We each caught a fish in daylight and after dark using the same two lures for probably 10 or 12 hours. Lately he's taking to changing to black perch after dark I don't see it making any difference. When I first started muskie fishing in the early 70's the guy who took me out and showed me a few things only fished from after supper till dark most every night he only had 3 lures all black . Back then around here all you could find was some form of bucktail , a swim-wizz, rarely a suick ( I bought every one I saw). I would raid the boxes of the Americans who came up in the summer but suicks always remained my go to. I remember an article by Mark Windel where he said he fished all day with the same bucktail and if he was with someone he would catch a fish take of the buctail and give it to the guy in the back of the boat and put on a completely different colour and continue to catch fish. Muskies are not complicated the more casts you make the more fish you will see and you will catch a lot of them.
Edited by horsehunter 1/21/2021 10:22 PM
|
|
| |
|
Posts: 2082
| My best trolling baits are the ones that constantly get bit, the dirty dozen all have double digit fish on them, some of my worst trolling baits are the the identical replacements.. I’ve found color to matter very little trolling |
|
| |
|
Posts: 2082
| Best trolling bait I have was orange fire tiger , now that it’s basically white because all the paint rubbed off, it’s still the best...best put on a board , it wanders all over the place |
|
| |
|
Posts: 20273
Location: oswego, il | I agree some baits are more special than others. I see it in glide baits all the time. What I am specifically talking about is having several of the same bait out one color is catching fish. You swap out the ones that aren't catching fish with the color that is. Now all the baits that color are now catching fish. Thinks something I have seen many times. |
|
| |
|
| Very interesting discussion. |
|
| |
|
Posts: 1760
Location: new richmond, wi. & isle, mn | ToddM - 1/21/2021 10:49 PM
I agree some baits are more special than others. I see it in glide baits all the time. What I am specifically talking about is having several of the same bait out one color is catching fish. You swap out the ones that aren't catching fish with the color that is. Now all the baits that color are now catching fish. Thinks something I have seen many times. This is true also. |
|
| |
|
Posts: 2388
Location: Chisholm, MN | ToddM - 1/21/2021 10:49 PM
I agree some baits are more special than others. I see it in glide baits all the time. What I am specifically talking about is having several of the same bait out one color is catching fish. You swap out the ones that aren't catching fish with the color that is. Now all the baits that color are now catching fish. Thinks something I have seen many times.
Isn’t it still possible you would have caught all those fish on another color? Maybe the fish were just turning on as you were changing colors. |
|
| |
|
Posts: 1285
Location: Walker, MN | Kirby Budrow - 1/22/2021 9:02 AM
ToddM - 1/21/2021 10:49 PM
I agree some baits are more special than others. I see it in glide baits all the time. What I am specifically talking about is having several of the same bait out one color is catching fish. You swap out the ones that aren't catching fish with the color that is. Now all the baits that color are now catching fish. Thinks something I have seen many times.
Isn’t it still possible you would have caught all those fish on another color? Maybe the fish were just turning on as you were changing colors.
Couldn't we say the same thing about lure size, vibration, speed, lure type or any other variable? Maybe it's all timing and luck? |
|
| |
|
Posts: 32954
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | I'll stick with the science of what muskies actually can see and conclude if it's strictly color, several of the same exact model baits are out and when the most productive color is replacing another and it gets bit more. That day under those conditions at that time, the fish can see it better.
Caveats: Maybe that color bait was manufactured slightly differently. Might have a more effective vibration footprint, better depth control, a different footprint at the speed it's moving that day or some other odd variable. I've seen that and painted a couple of those lures a different color with similar contrast properties, and bingo. Really good examples were the early Weagles for casting, some custom crankbaits I have, and different hardener variations in creatures I have had made. Most of the time it turns out to be contrast, but not all. I have one Dog Turd that catches more fish than any other I have seen, and it's been probably a dozen color variations of brown to black-ish. I have a hydrophone, and figured out it has a very unique footprint. |
|
| |
|
Posts: 719
| I think it matters and sometimes it matters a lot. Sometime they will hit anything that moves and sometimes the entire and very specific presentation (including color) is critical. If you pigeonhole your self into thinking otherwise you will look for and only see the results that confirm the specific theory you believe in...and you will only catch fish that will respond to what you are doing missing out on action you could have otherwise.
Double tens "didn't matter" for plenty of people especially in areas that had lots of fish...until they relented and tried them and saw a significant uptick in their results. If you keep your head in the sand all you will ever see is ...sand |
|
| |
|
Posts: 1626
Location: Brighton CO. | When we troll for Walleyes here on the front range of Colorado speed and depth come first once we get there we dial in the right color on a good day we catch 50-60 Walleyes in 8 -10 hours. Noise is factor too, one memorial day weekend a bunch of boats trolling up and down road beds rod tip to rod tip real combat fishing and everyone was catching fish then this clown on a jet ski comes flying thru the pack and no one caught a fish for a half hour. |
|
| |
|
Posts: 20273
Location: oswego, il | Kirby Budrow - 1/22/2021 9:02 AM
ToddM - 1/21/2021 10:49 PM
I agree some baits are more special than others. I see it in glide baits all the time. What I am specifically talking about is having several of the same bait out one color is catching fish. You swap out the ones that aren't catching fish with the color that is. Now all the baits that color are now catching fish. Thinks something I have seen many times.
Isn’t it still possible you would have caught all those fish on another color? Maybe the fish were just turning on as you were changing colors.
Not at all. I am.catching fish they are eating just one bait. I have the same bait out in different colors not firing. I swap it out with an identical bait and color and now I have 2 baits catching fish.
I think bturg nailed it when he said sometimes color matters and sometimes it matters alot. |
|
| |
|
Posts: 20273
Location: oswego, il | chuckski - 1/22/2021 10:39 AM
When we troll for Walleyes here on the front range of Colorado speed and depth come first once we get there we dial in the right color on a good day we catch 50-60 Walleyes in 8 -10 hours. Noise is factor too, one memorial day weekend a bunch of boats trolling up and down road beds rod tip to rod tip real combat fishing and everyone was catching fish then this clown on a jet ski comes flying thru the pack and no one caught a fish for a half hour.
I fished Boyd and horsetooth. Got a small eye on boyd, horsetooth some tiny smallmouth. Both were like the fox chain. Pleasure boats everywhere. The coves on horsetooth were packed. Not sure how you do it. |
|
| |
|
Posts: 57
Location: Zimmerman | When dealing with top predators, I think color is the extra factor. When a musky is on it will hit any color bait, presented right. Color comes into play when turning that so so fish, or making a 1 fish day into a multiple fish day. I see it on Mille lacs for walleyes. A couple yrs ago when it was sunny it was a bouncer with orange blade and orange hooks. On a cloudy day you switched to blue blade with blue hooks. Any other combo would still catch fish, just not as many. For whatever reason the color turned those extra fish. Last yr it was pink. |
|
| |
|
Posts: 2388
Location: Chisholm, MN | Masqui-ninja - 1/22/2021 9:30 AM
Kirby Budrow - 1/22/2021 9:02 AM
ToddM - 1/21/2021 10:49 PM
I agree some baits are more special than others. I see it in glide baits all the time. What I am specifically talking about is having several of the same bait out one color is catching fish. You swap out the ones that aren't catching fish with the color that is. Now all the baits that color are now catching fish. Thinks something I have seen many times.
Isn’t it still possible you would have caught all those fish on another color? Maybe the fish were just turning on as you were changing colors.
Couldn't we say the same thing about lure size, vibration, speed, lure type or any other variable? Maybe it's all timing and luck?
That's what I'm getting at for sure. Especially with trolling. The caster has the ability to trigger fish more so with presentation and figure 8s. Good trollers know how to trigger fish as well. |
|
| |
|
Posts: 2388
Location: Chisholm, MN | ToddM - 1/22/2021 10:47 AM
Kirby Budrow - 1/22/2021 9:02 AM
ToddM - 1/21/2021 10:49 PM
I agree some baits are more special than others. I see it in glide baits all the time. What I am specifically talking about is having several of the same bait out one color is catching fish. You swap out the ones that aren't catching fish with the color that is. Now all the baits that color are now catching fish. Thinks something I have seen many times.
Isn’t it still possible you would have caught all those fish on another color? Maybe the fish were just turning on as you were changing colors.
Not at all. I am.catching fish they are eating just one bait. I have the same bait out in different colors not firing. I swap it out with an identical bait and color and now I have 2 baits catching fish.
I think bturg nailed it when he said sometimes color matters and sometimes it matters alot.
So you definitely replicated something there and the obvious thing is color. But it could have been something else more unknown as well. Maybe that bait has a special something to it but happens to be the same color, or maybe it was its position in the lineup that caused fish to eat it more. (outside board, vs inside, or propwash?)
I can't say that color doesn't matter for sure. But I think there are so many more factors that could lead to any of these instances where fish seemed to bite another color more than another.
I feel like I'm alone in this discussion haha. Also, please don't take my questioning the wrong way. Not arguing to argue here. I'm trying to learn this stuff because I am very interested. |
|
| |
|
Posts: 32954
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | ToddM - 1/22/2021 10:47 AM
Kirby Budrow - 1/22/2021 9:02 AM
ToddM - 1/21/2021 10:49 PM
I agree some baits are more special than others. I see it in glide baits all the time. What I am specifically talking about is having several of the same bait out one color is catching fish. You swap out the ones that aren't catching fish with the color that is. Now all the baits that color are now catching fish. Thinks something I have seen many times.
Isn’t it still possible you would have caught all those fish on another color? Maybe the fish were just turning on as you were changing colors.
Not at all. I am.catching fish they are eating just one bait. I have the same bait out in different colors not firing. I swap it out with an identical bait and color and now I have 2 baits catching fish.
I think bturg nailed it when he said sometimes color matters and sometimes it matters alot.[/QUOT
Does it matter why?
If not, how is one supposed to replicate success when conditions change? |
|
| |
|
Location: On the O | horsehunter - I've fished days with my Suick on on rod and a Rob Dey spinnerbait on another while my partner cycled through a bushel of baits some days we both catch fish somedays we are both skunked. I can't remember often being outfished by someone wasting time changing baits.
It's funny, I probably throw Rob's baits more then anything else and have not once caught a Muskie using brown, but black and red, well that's another story can't keep the hair on them.
We're lucky to have Sean Landsman back in Ottawa and he was asked this question just the other night at a MCI meeting. Even luckier someone's nice enough to take notes and post online. (not me) But I can cut and paste those.
They see color, “rods in eye “detect movement and night vision. “Double Cones” see colors and detail in reds, orange and yellow. Single “cone cells” see blue and purple. Single “rod cells” help detect movement and contrast. Lateral line detects movement of prey.
|
|
| |
|
Posts: 20273
Location: oswego, il | Kirby it's all good and why I started this discussion. I don't understand why color can be throwing a dart and hitting the board and that being good enough to it having to be a bullseye
Can give another example. I had a mostly black hardhead with a black tail. Popped a fish in 10 minutes. Then another. We started using the same size hardhead but the only color was white. Nothing, popped another on the black. I found a black tail put it on the white one. Popped three on it and two more on the black one.
There are days when I have caught fish on baits from blue silver to hot perch in the same area at the same time. I have had days in like conditions where color mattered and it was a different color in the same bait on different days. I find the discussion interesting and I think sometimes we tend to stick with self fulfilling prophecy when it comes to color myself included. I wonder if sometimes we don't catch a fish or don't do well we had everything right but the color.
Edited by ToddM 1/22/2021 12:07 PM
|
|
| |
|
Posts: 693
Location: Moses Lake, WA | I wonder if anyone has tested the color issue fishing for perch, bluegill, or crappie when lots of fish can be sampled rather than one or two a day as in muskie fishing. Based on the bass comments it might be possible to extrapolate to other species.
|
|
| |
|
Posts: 1285
Location: Walker, MN | Matching the hatch for trout is surely a thing. Not just profile and size, actually color.
I've seen crappies reject every color but red, they were completely inhaling red. The color was triggering them, I'm convinced. |
|
| |
|
| Masqui-ninja - 1/22/2021 2:28 PM
Matching the hatch for trout is surely a thing. Not just profile and size, actually color.
I've seen crappies reject every color but red, they were completely inhaling red. The color was triggering them, I'm convinced.
Now that you mention it, a red jig with a minnow will normally out fish any other color jig with a minnow in the spring. One spring, after losing all my red jigs on wood in the shallow area I was fishing, I tried, green, white and yellow. Ended up pulling up anchor, motoring home and going to the garage where I knew I had more red jigs. Now I just buy a bunch of red jigs for spring crappie fishing. |
|
| |
|
Posts: 32954
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Maybe I'm wasting my time here, but red a foot or two under the water with the sun angle in the Spring is basically black. Next time you run out of red jigs, try a black one. The crappies like 'em a lot.
'Can give another example. I had a mostly black hardhead with a black tail. Popped a fish in 10 minutes. Then another. We started using the same size hardhead but the only color was white. Nothing, popped another on the black. I found a black tail put it on the white one. Popped three on it and two more on the black one. '
That's a good example of what I was talking about. White is all colors reflected, black is none. Many times the white is hard to see and the black sticks out like a sore thumb. Red may have been as good, it probably was close if white was not working. I spent years trying to figure this out with my friend Jimmy Cairnes and it's a big rabbit hole, my main reason was to be able to verbalize and even show it during the courses at Nicolet College (Jimmy was teaching at Rockford and we compared notes a lot), those were a blast and most of the participants were friends by the end. That's how I ended up with a hydrophone and is one of the main reasons I began working with Aqua-Vu as they had the only affordable underwater camera and developed the first like it in full color. I see color disappear from bright to gone every afternoon and evening I ice fish, and now it's in 1080p on a 10" screen. I think T has seen the seminar I did using constantly reduced available light and colored sheets of paper and then baits. That's what I was trying to figure out how to do.
The whole color debate is really a debate on what happens to light under water and the angler realizing that what is seen on the surface means ZIPPO under the water. Then there's the issue about the clock and muskie vision. At a preset time every morning and evening, the muskie's vision goes from super-light-sensitive black and white only (rod vision) to color (cone vision) and then back again. During the changeover from cone to rod and after, it makes absolutely NO difference what color a lure is above the water in the light. It's B&W vision for the fish even if some light is still available under water.
Rabbit hole, but the science is there and all available online.
(131972436_10224619492654173_9197079253373648612_o.jpg)
Attachments
----------------
 131972436_10224619492654173_9197079253373648612_o.jpg (161KB - 347 downloads)
|
|
| |
|
| sworrall - 1/22/2021 4:08 PM
Maybe I'm wasting my time here, but red a foot or two under the water with the sun angle in the Spring is basically black. Next time you run out of red jigs, try a black one. The crappies like 'em a lot.
Thanks for the suggestion, will give it a try. Black is just about the only color jig I have not tried in the spring. On the other hand, I have had success fly casting a black spider with little rubber legs, now that I think of it. |
|
| |
|
Posts: 32954
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Hit me up, I have some really cool Kenders and Vexan black jigs, and I like to share...
This image is from a recent video at about 4PM on the ice with about 3" of snow and no clouds. Light of course is reduced by snow, water, and ice. The jig is bright pink and white. Watch this clip at about the 3:10 point on, the hook looks red for a few seconds and then black....that was a cloud going over under the ice in crystal clear water mid day. Plus, if the minnow gets close to the camera the hook is almost red again, then black as it gets a foot away. That's the effect of 12" of water refracting and absorbing light.
https://www.facebook.com/358020667757/videos/321172352552936
Attachments
----------------
Untitled.png (210KB - 338 downloads)
|
|
| |
|
Posts: 499
Location: Northern Illinois | North of 8 - 1/22/2021 3:42 PM
Masqui-ninja - 1/22/2021 2:28 PM
Matching the hatch for trout is surely a thing. Not just profile and size, actually color.
I've seen crappies reject every color but red, they were completely inhaling red. The color was triggering them, I'm convinced.
Now that you mention it, a red jig with a minnow will normally out fish any other color jig with a minnow in the spring. One spring, after losing all my red jigs on wood in the shallow area I was fishing, I tried, green, white and yellow. Ended up pulling up anchor, motoring home and going to the garage where I knew I had more red jigs. Now I just buy a bunch of red jigs for spring crappie fishing.
After years of fishing for bass in a specific lake, we have noticed a seasonal color preference between black/blue and green pumpkin/black Senkos, but sometimes we see it change morning through afternoon. We sometimes use other colors but the fish tell us to come back to one of those 2 colors. Black/blue is more effective early in spring and green later in the year. We have found the algae colored water favored the green color. Black is usually better in the morning and evening. I am now wondering if this is more due to light penetration at different times of the day or year. Obviously it is much more difficult to pattern color preferences with muskies given the fewer data points. |
|
| |
|
Posts: 2082
| as Steve has sort of alluded to , the deeper I have baits running in the water column the less color seams to matter, baits 15’+ like basically not at all |
|
| |
|
Posts: 2082
| Depth and action at 4mph is the trigger, for Muskie ...bass, trout and panfish really don’t relate to this? ... Muskie sitting on the bottom in 18’ of water,
.....”oh I’ll let the grey one go by so I can wait for a darker grey one to go by”?
Edited by IAJustin 1/22/2021 11:03 PM
|
|
| |
|
Posts: 2388
Location: Chisholm, MN | IAJustin - 1/22/2021 11:01 PM
Depth and action at 4mph is the trigger, for Muskie ...bass, trout and panfish really don’t relate to this? ... Muskie sitting on the bottom in 18’ of water,
.....”oh I’ll let the grey one go by so I can wait for a darker grey one to go by”?
My point exactly. Crappies sometimes sit and analyze a just for minutes before eating it. They can decide to eat it based on color if they want. Usually our baits are moving for more aggressively than this and the trigger is the action for muskies. |
|
| |
|
Location: Eastern Ontario | BigC - 1/22/2021 1:01 PM
horsehunter - I've fished days with my Suick on on rod and a Rob Dey spinnerbait on another while my partner cycled through a bushel of baits some days we both catch fish somedays we are both skunked. I can't remember often being outfished by someone wasting time changing baits.
It's funny, I probably throw Rob's baits more then anything else and have not once caught a Muskie using brown, but black and red, well that's another story can't keep the hair on them.
We're lucky to have Sean Landsman back in Ottawa and he was asked this question just the other night at a MCI meeting. Even luckier someone's nice enough to take notes and post online. (not me ) But I can cut and paste those.
They see color, “rods in eye “detect movement and night vision. “Double Cones” see colors and detail in reds, orange and yellow. Single “cone cells” see blue and purple. Single “rod cells” help detect movement and contrast. Lateral line detects movement of prey.
Your lucky to have Sean back a real class act. Say hello to Hedrick for me.
I'm still using lures Rob made for me in the 90's The blacks have bleached out to a sort of grey, the browns tan, and not really sure what the purple has changed into but they continue to catch fish. Rob sent me a bunch of tied trailer hooks a while back so I have some ugly old baits with new trailers. I named my favourite Joe after a friend and when people ask why I tell them Joe don't have no hair left either.
Edited by horsehunter 1/23/2021 7:57 AM
|
|
| |
|
Posts: 32954
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | I fish open water big crappies a lot, gills too. Some of the best slab (12 to 15 or bigger) fishing we do is trolling Vexan Wasps, Flickershads or Lateral Line Lures Benders at 1.7 to 3. We slam them trolling from small wisco lakes to Vermilion. Never tried trolling faster, but this discussion has me looking to.
When we are casting a jig and plastics in the cover (we don't use live bait in the open water season)I fish them faster than I do walleyes. Contrast and knowing what they can see on any given day is a huge factor, no less than toothy critters, and I'd bet better than 75% of the strikes are triggered by fairly rapid movement. We catch more really big crappies in the open water than under the ice because we can trigger more strikes, and because they almost never stop swimming when active and we can stay with them. That's why I bought a 'Bird 360. The bait has to contrast so they can see it or no dice.
Next time I have the right conditions I'll record a video on the Aqua-Vi HD7i as the light goes down in the evening with a white, black, and multi-color jig. I should be able to get the lure up far enough in the water column so it's easy to see the difference between a fish looking up, straight at, or down at the lure. Probably will need to do one in open water and one in weeds so differing backgrounds can be presented.
(120017973_10223916938370755_8474412824915149040_o.jpg)
(72234556_3199552350087225_250863052574949376_o.jpg)
(123492477_10224245053293423_7330871519080634313_n.jpg)
(96283380_10222562023658734_4101889240231575552_o.jpg)
Attachments
----------------
120017973_10223916938370755_8474412824915149040_o.jpg (203KB - 379 downloads)
72234556_3199552350087225_250863052574949376_o.jpg (140KB - 376 downloads)
123492477_10224245053293423_7330871519080634313_n.jpg (146KB - 388 downloads)
96283380_10222562023658734_4101889240231575552_o.jpg (101KB - 395 downloads)
|
|
| |
|
Posts: 246
| I made a crankbait years ago and have caught a bunch of fish on it trolling the same lake. The fun part is, I've repainted it different colors and schemes and it still catches. This made me a believer that color only matters occasionally and most of the time something else got the fish fired up.
Sidenote: It's a great lure, tracks at 6mph and survived being snagged under water for 16 months before a draw down made it accessible. I changed the split rings, hooks and fished it that day. Lol. |
|
| |
|
Posts: 20273
Location: oswego, il | I can say that my Muskie Fishing is mostly done casting and trolling in the top 10ft of the water column in a variety of water conditions. |
|
| |
|
Posts: 719
| Again: IMO if you have decided that it doesn't matter you simply haven't put enough time into the art of figuring out which color may be better in a given situation. Substitute the words "stimulation" or "visibility" into this discussion and then re-read it and see if you can see a different slant on things. Fish respond to different levels of visibility and stimulation in a variety of ways depending on the situation and conditions. Not trying to insult anyone here but if your not looking at this as a significant variable with an open mind you will catch LESS fish no question. Of all the top anglers that I have been around and especially the best guides who's living depends on consistent success NONE rule out color as a factor and a variable that changes from hour to hour, day to day and lake to lake. If you want to be better at catching fish instead of just doing what works some of the time you need to open up your mind and expand your knowledge.
Again not trying to insult...trying to make you BETTER.
|
|
| |
|
Posts: 2388
Location: Chisholm, MN | Well, I’m just not sure it matters as much as people think. And I don’t think there’s a good way to prove that it does matter since the sample sizes are so small for muskies. Maybe black vs white, or something very natural makes the difference. If it does make a difference, how can I tell when my sample consists of contacting maybe 2-10 fish a day 3 days a week? |
|
| |
|
Location: Eastern Ontario | Most start with the lure that caught the last fish then take off a lure that they know works and cycle through a bunch of untried lures looking for magic. I guess my opinion has been formed because when I started I didn't have a lot of lures available to me and I was able to catch fish on the lures I had under many various conditions and locations. I guy I knew would troll every evening all season long only ever using a 8 inch jailbird Believer he caught as many fish as most. Over the years I accumulated hundreds of lures ( telling myself most came off raffle tables) and with the exception of the 6 lures I use on the Larry I'm still using the lures i started with and really don't catch any more than when everything fit in a styrofoam minnow bucket. I guess if I was selling lures i would tell people they need 19 colours in 4 different sizes.
Look at your lures and tell me if you used each for an hour could you get all of them wet this year. You only need so many hammers. |
|
| |
|
Posts: 1285
Location: Walker, MN | If it ain't chartreuse, there ain't no use.
Edited by Masqui-ninja 1/24/2021 11:04 AM
|
|
| |
|
Posts: 20273
Location: oswego, il | I think it's a combination of what Bob and Steve are saying. I don't notice color being a factor most of the time. I think we mostly make good ball park decisions on color to begin with. On LSC your feedback can be had in minutes, seen it many times. What's interesting is that it has changed for me on like days, I could never replicate the hardhead bite again in subsequent years. Last year baits with yellow were better. In those cases action depth and speed were ultra critical but once that's dialed in you can get color feedback if enough fish eat. |
|
| |
|
Posts: 2388
Location: Chisholm, MN | Masqui-ninja - 1/24/2021 10:49 AM
If it ain't chartreuse, there ain't no use.
I know you can’t go wrong with this color! |
|
| |
|
Posts: 8855
| Color matters, just not all of the time and certainly not more than lure selection and presentation. Anybody who says it doesn't matter at all hasn't been fishing long enough. Even the guys who swear it makes no difference probably have a different set of lures for clear vs. stained vs. muddy water and switch colors based on light conditions. |
|
| |
|
Posts: 2082
| It matters so much give me any condition Muskie fishing and tell me the color I’m NOT supposed to fish? I gladly fish it all day, and I’ll catch muskies...what’s even better are those that think they need custom colors- lol!
Edited by IAJustin 1/24/2021 4:06 PM
|
|
| |
|
Posts: 32954
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | And I actually believe that even after 52 years muskie fishing and 24 of those guiding, I still have a lot to learn.
Can't think of any other way to say that nicely. |
|
| |
|
Posts: 719
| I think what Steve is trying to say (nicely) is some of us (at least I am) feel like we are wasting our time here on this subject. That said if you truly feel that Muskies are completely unlike Bass, pan-fish, walleyes, trout, salmon and other freshwater game-fish in their abilities to differentiate and show color preference....only because you have not figured out that it matters and refuse to accept and modify your approach to capitalize I feel sorry for you and your potential advancement as an angler.
I mean do you really walk into the tackle shop to lure shop and just pick any color completely at random hoping that it will work. Hope is not a very good plan. And if you tell me black (or any other color) always works for you so that's why you use it you are saying color does matter based on your results.
Back to my long winters nap.
Edited by bturg 1/24/2021 10:37 PM
|
|
| |
|
Location: Eastern Ontario | I guess after 46 years fishing the same lake I'm not going to do much advancing and my body is telling me it's time to wind down . I sold my Larry boat so any big water trolling will be done in Hoser or Billy's boat. I will continue to fish the local lake in 2 or 3 hour evening sessions and anyone wanting to get in the back had better not bring more than 2 rods and 6 lures.
|
|
| |
|
| horsehunter - 1/25/2021 7:35 AM
I guess after 46 years fishing the same lake I'm not going to do much advancing and my body is telling me it's time to wind down . I sold my Larry boat so any big water trolling will be done in Hoser or Billy's boat. I will continue to fish the local lake in 2 or 3 hour evening sessions and anyone wanting to get in the back had better not bring more than 2 rods and 6 lures.
Did you buy the canoe you discussed early in the season? |
|
| |
|
Posts: 592
Location: deephaven mn | Lemon Head.... white bait Chartreuse head.it works. I think Chartreuse appears white in the water.
Not much contrast hear....but the combo works.....is it for the fish or the fisherman?
I got bit on it so i throw it again and again |
|
| |
|
Location: Eastern Ontario | Ya got a great deal used weighs 35 pounds took the seats out and put one more centered to use with a Kayak paddle. Still want to try a fishing Kayak but the weight scares me for where I want to take it. Son in law is leaving one of his boats here for me to fish the lake. |
|
| |
|
Location: Eastern Ontario | kap - 1/25/2021 8:52 AM
Lemon Head.... white bait Chartreuse head.it works. I think Chartreuse appears white in the water.
Not much contrast hear....but the combo works.....is it for the fish or the fisherman?
I got bit on it so i throw it again and again
Years ago I spent time under water while while baits were cast over me ( the hooks were removed and replaced with like weight bell sinkers I'm crazy not stupid ). This was done in both a pool and the local lake. To me Chartreuse appeared silvery. |
|
| |
|
Posts: 358
| if fish can see, then color has to matter some of the time. Since light travels fastest if a particular color can get a fishes attention (positively) faster then you may likely have a better opportunity at attracting (or detracting) that fish. seems fairly straight forward to me.
that being said im not a huge color guy out side of dark and light lures, although i fiddle with paint colors a lot lol. Still think contrast / flash is the biggest thing in lure color. |
|
| |
|
| horsehunter - 1/25/2021 7:58 AM
Ya got a great deal used weighs 35 pounds took the seats out and put one more centered to use with a Kayak paddle. Still want to try a fishing Kayak but the weight scares me for where I want to take it. Son in law is leaving one of his boats here for me to fish the lake.
Wow, that is super light. Friend has a kevlar kayak that is extremely light but not a fishing kayak. He got it used and still paid something close to 2 grand. I have fishing kayak, and while heavy at 62 pounds, I bought a wheel kit designed for portaging and makes it pretty easy to move as long as terrain is not too rough. Load the paddle, rod, jacket, water bottle once the wheels are attached and away you go. |
|
| |
|
Posts: 1444
| While I've known for quite a while, that color does have a varying effect (some time more, some times less), I have thought for a while, that one could do just as well with a monochrome lure arsenal. Pick a lure type, and if you have a white one, a black one, and a contrasting white and black one, that would be all that you need. Some of this is motivated by the fact that early on, I foresaw that I would get out of control buying a million baits. Now since I like pretty colors and appreciate life like baits, I hold more to a pattern of having a light, a dark, and a light/dark contrasting version of most baits that I use. I feel that my muskie fishing sample size is just too small to really put any kind of valid data together, to teach me anything meaningful, as there are just too many variables and not enough data to narrow it down. While still anecdotal, I do have a few examples that have carried more weight in my mind. I seem to have an inordinate amount of success compared to other colors, on a couple of lakes. On Green Bay, for some reason, I do better if a lure has purple in it. Regardless of species. Walleye, trout, small mouth, pike, everything seems to like purple. On Leech, I experience the same phenomena with chartreuse/green. Also, I took a pike fishing trip up to northern Manitoba, about 25 years ago, and everything ate white. Literally, nothing else worked. It didn't matter what kind of bait you threw, as long as it was white, it would get hammered. So, basically, I know nothing. |
|
| |
|
Posts: 20273
Location: oswego, il | Steve I am pretty sure you could land on a planet millions of light years away with a rod reel, creature and catch whatever inhabits the water.
TC that's my point of this discussion. I have no idea why at times color really matters. |
|
| |
|
Posts: 416
Location: Selkirk, Manitoba | Fish of all species can be extremely discriminating or can be opportunistic. When discriminating you better be throwing what they want if you want to catch one, whereas when they are opportunistic pretty much everything works. I don't think muskies are unique in this sense and so also follow this pattern, and if given a choice between two colours they will probably choose one over another in a statistically significant way given that everything else about the lures is identical. In real world practice when you are prospecting for fish I would tend towards the Windels theory of the more casts you make the more muskies you'll boat, so changing lures is counterproductive to this and one should go with a confidence lure for that waterbody and probably not concern oneself with changing colours too much.
If you are looking to catch a specific fish or targeting a specific size of fish then this is where the lure changing, type of lure, size and colour come into play in my opinion - there is no question that muskies are rejecting some lures outright and are only triggered to follow or strike if a lure triggers those instincts, and colour may in some instances be that deciding factor.
In terms of anecdotes, I have a couple of spots that I know hold numerous muskies, so I spend a lot more time messing around in those spots than one would do just prospecting or even if I felt there was just one fish there, and what I've learned has really accelerated the learning curve on these fish. I would say it is equivalent to hunting whitetail bucks, these fish have individual personalities: some are fearless at boat, some are not; some will follow the same lures, some follow one time on a new lure they haven't seen, some look hot but don't do anything, some are curious and stick around and do the lip curl tasting thing they do. A big factor though is they do get conditioned to lures and fatiqued by anglers, aware of your boat and what it means, etc, just like a whitetail buck will if you keep going in the woods after him. The point being is that what works for one fish does not always work for all and experimenting does pay dividends in particular situations.
What I do feel is good data on colour is there are lots of pike where I fish and if the pike like the colour (or type of lure) being thrown, then I feel I have a good shot at the muskies too and have confidence in the lure type or colour.
FYI Canadian "u" in colour
Edited by Angling Oracle 1/26/2021 12:36 PM
|
|
| |
|
Posts: 35
| I've read through this so many times it drove me nuts. Does color matter with live bait? Where are all the natural rock bass patterns haha? |
|
| |
|
Posts: 32954
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Shroomskie - 1/30/2021 1:46 PM
I've read through this so many times it drove me nuts. Does color matter with live bait? Where are all the natural rock bass patterns haha?
Actually, yes. Most of the live bait I use either has a jig head or some sort of teaser attached. haha... ? There is no paint that is the same fish coloration.
Bottom line is contrast.
If you don't know what happens to color (light) underwater and you haven't thought about how muskies see, what they can actually see, and what the background is, it's all fairy dust. |
|
| |
|
Posts: 2754
Location: Mauston, Wisconsin | Yes, Steve. Its fairy dust!
Which lure will be the most visible with highest contrast at a depth of 5' to 100'?
Its a trick color created by man.
https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/observations/stop-this-absurd-w...
https://youtu.be/S9dqJRyk0YM
Have fun!
Al
(9 Inch Hot Pink Alien.JPG)
(il_fullxfull.1086760616_hnpd.jpg)
Attachments
----------------
9 Inch Hot Pink Alien.JPG (282KB - 389 downloads)
il_fullxfull.1086760616_hnpd.jpg (63KB - 379 downloads)
|
|
| |
|
Posts: 426
Location: Perryville, MO | Al, this is gonna cost me a bunch of money. I'm going to the paint shop now to purchase some "minus green" and all my black baits are getting a new finish. Oh, wait. Steve, (knowing the color underneath is going to matter) should I repaint my black or white baits? Oh, crap I'm already confused again!
Edited by hawkeye9 2/2/2021 10:03 AM
|
|
| |
|
Posts: 35
| That's just too much thinking. I like to go cast. I did nab my PB overall sizewise on a little gold hook with a crappie minnow. What if that hook was red instead?! I'll never get over it! JK Steve, this is a just a past time for me more than a hobby these days. Discussions can be fun, but I still wonder how there are no Rock Bass colored lures? |
|
| |
|
Posts: 51
| There's no doubt in my mind that color does matter. Its not that I think the fish, muskies in particular, have a preference for any color combination, but they will hit what they can see best. That being said, I dont believe we know nearly enough to make any kind of predictions on what colors will work on any given day...
There are alot of useful posts in this thread analysing musky behavior and sight capacity. On the flip side, there's not a whole lot analysis required to figure out that human beings are notorious for finding patterns where there isnt one. We're very bad a this, we dont like random so we very often make conclusions on lacking sample size.
I think the best approach when it comes to color depends on how many lines you can get in the water on a particular outing. I most often fish alone and can only get one line in the water at any given time. So with that in mind, I rely alot on black or white, these 2 options are most likely to cover all bases reasonably well.
If on the other hand you're trolling 6 lines, this enables you to test different sets more thoroughly without giving up much when it comes to switching lures. Finding the right combo under these circumstances is much more likely.
Long story short, doest it matter? I believe it does. Can you find the right color on any given day? Depends... |
|
| |
|
Posts: 2082
| “There's no doubt in my mind that color does matter. Its not that I think the fish, muskies in particular, have a preference for any color combination, but they will hit what they can see best. “
Why do most think a muskie will hit what they see best? ... maybe you are not even getting follows because they see your bait too “good”? ...I still find it comical many will throw a black dbl cowgirl for 3 hours, no action,, and the first thing they do is think... hmm maybe I should throw a red one? .... I’ll go jig a bondy.. any color will do thanks ... always some fish deep.
Edited by IAJustin 2/4/2021 7:32 AM
|
|
| |
|
Posts: 2082
| Many of the consistent times and presentation to fool Big fish = poor conditions for them see well/make our presentations. Night, topwater in honest 2 foot waves, deep and speed ... most spend WAY too much time worrying about color!!! |
|
| |
|
Posts: 32954
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | IAJustin - 2/4/2021 7:43 AM
Many of the consistent times and presentation to fool Big fish = poor conditions for them see well/make our presentations. Night, topwater in honest 2 foot waves, deep and speed ... most spend WAY too much time worrying about color!!!
There is no color at night unless looking down on a moonlit night (the muskie looks up), but there sure as hades is contrast. And muskies see way better after dark than we do, rod vision is absolutely amazing. I don't 'worry' about color because I understand how it works in the water and out, at all light levels and select my presentation to suit. Yes, it for certain has helped me catch a lot more fish of all species.
I fully get it from your comments you don't care about it, but thanks anyway, I will.
' maybe you are not even getting follows because they see your bait too “good”'
So now the muskie is intelligent enough to reason out what it sees 'too good' (actually, too well) and won't follow a lure as a result? Did you know muskies are myopic to a fault (primary and secondary definitions :)? Or was that derisive humor?
And all of that with no frontal lobes. |
|
| |
|
Posts: 472
| So lets take it a step further. You're getting follows on a particular bait, but no bites. Are you changing colors of the same bait ,or changing baits slightly and keeping the same color? Or are you changing baits and colors all together. I think I know how I would handle it, just curious how you guys would approach. |
|
| |
|
Posts: 20273
Location: oswego, il | chasintails - 2/5/2021 1:06 PM
So lets take it a step further. You're getting follows on a particular bait, but no bites. Are you changing colors of the same bait ,or changing baits slightly and keeping the same color? Or are you changing baits and colors all together. I think I know how I would handle it, just curious how you guys would approach.
In my scenarios I changed from the same bait different color to the same bait same color that was catching fish. You can only get this feedback when fish are eating you have multiple lines and only when you duplicate the line firing do you catch fish on multiple lines. It doesn't happen often but it does happen. That was the whole point of the discussion, why does it really matter, sometimes. My best day on LSC they ate multiple colors even UV. I have seen fish prefer a different color on different years under identical conditions. I don't pretend to know why and I do understand everything Steve has said as well. It's also possible other baits may have worked that I either didn't have or try but nobody is going to take off a bait catching fish.
Edited by ToddM 2/5/2021 2:28 PM
|
|
| |
|
Posts: 32954
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | If the fish are just following and are laid back and not aggressive, I'll stick with what I have clipped on. If they are aggressive and hot, but not triggering, I'll go for a color I believe they can see better under the conditions, same bait. It may also be the boat position, getting the sun out of the fish's eyes can help. |
|
| |
|
Posts: 2082
| If fish aren’t aggressive I’d change size, action or speed... possibly all three, having their address and triggering a reaction is the game. If following aggressive they are in the net - lol |
|
| |
|
Posts: 2388
Location: Chisholm, MN | Justin, I agree 100 percent. One reason that color could matter is using black at night under a new moon so the fish actually can’t see it. They just feel it and eat it. And since they can’t see it, they don’t know it isn’t real and may be more willing to eat it. I believe this is what you’re talking about. So color did matter, but not for the reason that you’d think color matters. |
|
| |
|
Posts: 32954
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | I think this will be fun and informative. Since fish vision underwater is the real question: What CAN the muskie see? Let's go with night vision first. On a clock basis, the fish's vision begins to go from cone to rod vision. It takes a while and is not adjusted seasonally. Cones require more light and allow color vision. Rods are over 100 times more sensitive to light and allow black and white vision. A rod cell is sensitive enough to respond to a single photon of light and is about 100 times more sensitive to a single photon than cones. Since rods require less light to function than cones, they are the primary source of visual information at night (scotopic vision). So what does that mean?
Ambient light is the issue once ALL light from the sun is gone. Stars create quite a bit. The Milky Way, for example, emits way more light than one might think. I have several night vision cameras that use ambient light:
From Sionyx:
'Intensifying the Image
Undoubtedly, the real magic lies within the image intensifier tube – which put into very basic terms – absorbs photons (light energy) and releases electrons (electric energy) before converting into light again in the form of an image. With that understanding in-mind, let’s dive a little deeper into how it all actually works. At the front of any night vision device is an objective lens, whose job is to gather all available ambient and artificial infrared energy before funneling it to an electronically powered image intensifier tube. These photons pass through a photocathode, which converts them into electrons. These electrons move on to a micro channel plate (MCP) where they are amplified by a factor of thousands through an electrical and chemical chain reaction created when they impact the micro channel walls. These effectively supercharged electrons then slam into a screen coated in phosphors where they reach an excited state, releasing photons, or visible light, which can be viewed through an eye piece. The image will appear as a clear and crisp amplified recreation of the scene you are observing, but in a combination of greens and black tones.'
In short, photons drive the sensor, and it's really stunning what the camera can do. Pay close attention to the iPhone/Scionyx comparison. the iPhone saw more than I could see. Key consideration as we move forward: 1 photon.
CLICK HERE FOR VIDEO As time allows, I'll shoot a number of clips with side by side comparisons with a camera more sensitive than the human eye and the Sionyx. I also have a number of 1080p underwater cameras, and can show what happens to color underwater.
|
|
| |
|
Posts: 1285
Location: Walker, MN | I can remember white topwaters seeming to produce much better than black...the theory was that the fish weren't seeing it as well. Something like a prop topwater just drives 'em nuts at times I believe, because they can never quite get a good look at it. I think the mood of the fish can dictate whether a fish wants to feed by using it's sight, or simply react to something within it's vicinity. Sometimes flashy or gaudy is good, other times a more natural or camo look could get it done. Hard to prove or disprove. |
|
| |
|
Posts: 719
| sworrall - 2/6/2021 10:22 AM
I think this will be fun and informative. Since fish vision underwater is the real question: What CAN the muskie see? Let's go with night vision first. On a clock basis, the fish's vision begins to go from cone to rod vision. It takes a while and is not adjusted seasonally. Cones require more light and allow color vision. Rods are over 100 times more sensitive to light and allow black and white vision. A rod cell is sensitive enough to respond to a single photon of light and is about 100 times more sensitive to a single photon than cones. Since rods require less light to function than cones, they are the primary source of visual information at night (scotopic vision). So what does that mean?
Ambient light is the issue once ALL light from the sun is gone. Stars create quite a bit. The Milky Way, for example, emits way more light than one might think. I have several night vision cameras that use ambient light:
From Sionyx:
'Intensifying the Image
Undoubtedly, the real magic lies within the image intensifier tube – which put into very basic terms – absorbs photons (light energy) and releases electrons (electric energy) before converting into light again in the form of an image. With that understanding in-mind, let’s dive a little deeper into how it all actually works. At the front of any night vision device is an objective lens, whose job is to gather all available ambient and artificial infrared energy before funneling it to an electronically powered image intensifier tube. These photons pass through a photocathode, which converts them into electrons. These electrons move on to a micro channel plate (MCP) where they are amplified by a factor of thousands through an electrical and chemical chain reaction created when they impact the micro channel walls. These effectively supercharged electrons then slam into a screen coated in phosphors where they reach an excited state, releasing photons, or visible light, which can be viewed through an eye piece. The image will appear as a clear and crisp amplified recreation of the scene you are observing, but in a combination of greens and black tones.'
In short, photons drive the sensor, and it's really stunning what the camera can do. Pay close attention to the iPhone/Scionyx comparison. the iPhone saw more than I could see. Key consideration as we move forward: 1 photon.
CLICK HERE FOR VIDEO As time allows, I'll shoot a number of clips with side by side comparisons with a camera more sensitive than the human eye and the Sionyx. I also have a number of 1080p underwater cameras, and can show what happens to color underwater.
Lets not throw science out there and clutter up this "debate" with facts ! |
|
| |
|
Posts: 32954
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Q: Can fish see well?
A: 'Biologists believe that their depth perception is poor and most fish have a semi-blind spot straight ahead of them. To compensate for this, the retina of their eyes is slightly extended. This is where the term "fish eye" lens comes from. Fish generally have excellent close-up vision, but poor distance vision.'
OK, eyes on each side of the head instead of in front, like ours, exaggerated by the head structure of a muskie VS a bass or similar fish. Poor depth perception, myopic, and a blind spot in front up close probably negating the up-close-vision clarity to a large degree. If a 45" fish is a few inches behind a lure following, they probably can't see it. I see pike back up all the time to get a look at a lure in stereoscopic, and then a straight-line attack when triggered. They miss a lot.
Paint can't even come close to a natural fish as far as mimicking what one sees underwater, think about light absorption/reflection from a thousand multi-pigmented scales VS a flat surface, and that's just one factor. Then there's light and water as mentioned with Snell's Law and Snell's Window since muskie vision is up to the large part.
Then there's what a lure acts and sounds like. Natural? Not even close. I have recorded hundreds of fish with a hydrophone and the same with lures, and there's no similarity at all. None. If they can reason by seeing it's wrong, the racket should be a dead hit-the-bricks giveaway.
What I come up with from all this from years of digging into it after reading Sosin and Clark's 'Through the Fish's Eye' (January '73) and getting incurably curious? Dark lures against light backgrounds, light lures against dark backgrounds and do the best you can to know what contrast your lures offer and what the backgrounds are. Fish are basically stupid. People do way too much anthropomorphizing.
I believe Doug Johnson is quoted, "if it moves it's food." I agree. Should be fun recording some of this with the new gear I have these days to see if it's possible to showcase some of this stuff. |
|
| |
|
Posts: 2388
Location: Chisholm, MN | Masqui-ninja - 2/7/2021 8:11 PM
I can remember white topwaters seeming to produce much better than black...the theory was that the fish weren't seeing it as well. Something like a prop topwater just drives 'em nuts at times I believe, because they can never quite get a good look at it. I think the mood of the fish can dictate whether a fish wants to feed by using it's sight, or simply react to something within it's vicinity. Sometimes flashy or gaudy is good, other times a more natural or camo look could get it done. Hard to prove or disprove.
I like this theory |
|
| |
|
Posts: 32954
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Kirby Budrow - 2/7/2021 10:40 PM Masqui-ninja - 2/7/2021 8:11 PM I can remember white topwaters seeming to produce much better than black...the theory was that the fish weren't seeing it as well.-- 'White, in physics, light when all wavelengths of the visible spectrum combine. Like black, but unlike the colours of the spectrum and most mixtures of them, white lacks hue, so it is considered an achromatic colour.' 'Black is the darkest color, the result of the absence or complete absorption of visible light. It is an achromatic color, a color without hue, like white and gray.' Black text against a white background Light Color Text aginst a white background Can't use white, it's not visible here, try dimming your screen. Obviously in the case of a surface lure the background is the sky.
Something like a prop topwater just drives 'em nuts at times I believe, because they can never quite get a good look at it.--See text example above. Light against dark they will see, dark against light they will see from beneath the bait. Once directly behind on a followthey see nothing but the narrow rear of the bait and disturbance.
Surface bait, so the fish is looking up, correct? Snell's Window. Google it, please.
--- I think the mood of the fish can dictate whether a fish wants to feed by using it's sight, or simply react to something within it's vicinity. Sometimes flashy or gaudy is good, other times a more natural or camo look could get it done. Hard to prove or disprove.--- Agreed, actually! For purposes of context please define 'mood' other than 'a distinctive emotional quality or character', that infers a level of intelligence that fish don't have, and is anthropomorphism. 1) In most cases, is a musky feeding when caught, or are we in the vast majority talking strike response? Is a the lesser response you mention because of 'mood', or something else? What causes a strong strike response, and why would the fish just follow? 2) There is no 'natural' when talking paint VS actual live fish, unfortunately. Less visible? Sure, light against light, for example. If muskies have been proven to use sight in the final attack, would they not miss a LOT if the can't see the bait? 3) They DO miss a LOT, right? 4) What is gaudy, and under what lighting? What happens to Firetiger in diffused, low light 2' under the water at low sun angle? Is it a dark contrast or light? What color is the bottom of that firetiger lure, and what direction do Esox primarily look? Some folks think this stuff is irrelevant, and to a degree they are right, fish enough and one will catch fish. Knowing WHY one caught a fish under any set of circumstances and then being able to do that again, and again...has always been a hard to attain goal. Some folks scoff, but I'll keep trying to learn and figure some of it out because I am, as I said, incurable curious. Zach, the other half of OFM, says we'll know this all when we can ask a fish and get an answer. He's also right.
I like this theory |
|
| |
|
Posts: 267
| And then there's that whole thing, is it the bait and how it vibrates or runs? Maybe it's the bait more than the color. In other words, a bait/color works great, your partner puts on the same bait and color and it doesn't work for him. It doesn't vibrate the same or have the same action. |
|
| |
|
Posts: 32954
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Smell_Esox - 2/8/2021 10:28 AM
And then there's that whole thing, is it the bait and how it vibrates or runs? Maybe it's the bait more than the color. In other words, a bait/color works great, your partner puts on the same bait and color and it doesn't work for him. It doesn't vibrate the same or have the same action.
From everything I have read, it's all part of the same equation. I have seen that more than once. |
|
| |
|
| Maybe that will be a future discussion, how sound/vibration impacts effectiveness of similar baits. For instance, one musky sized buzz bait I have moves some fish but another one, different maker but same size is more effective, and I think it is because the blade strikes the lead body loudly as it turns, making a different sound. |
|
| |
|
Posts: 1444
| sworrall - 2/7/2021 9:51 PM
I believe Doug Johnson is quoted, "if it moves it's food." I agree. Should be fun recording some of this with the new gear I have these days to see if it's possible to showcase some of this stuff.
Perhaps just a matter of semantics, but to say "if it moves it's food" is a little limiting. I would say perhaps "if it moves it could get bit." The reason being, that I don't think every time a fish takes something into it's mouth, that it is necessarily eating. All critters have an instinctual drive to examine and check things out. With humans I would use the word curiosity. Most things have feet, paws, or hands, to touch, flip over, grab, and examine things. Fish don't. Their mouth is their hands, as well as a place to put food. In a fish tank setting, I have seen a variety of game fish pick things up in their mouth, that are not food. They will often pick it up, spit it out, pick it up again, spit it out. Sometimes they will cock their head so that one eye can see it, and pick it up again, and spit it out. I think it is just their way of examining their environment. The point is the same, regarding getting a fish to bite, but I think there are other reasons besides feeding, that will cause a fish to take something into it's mouth. |
|
| |
|
Posts: 32954
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | In the world of Esox, I believe it's pretty much a lock, semantics aside. In my experience watching the Aqua-Vu, any moving object that gets taken by an Esox generally ends up pretty far down the hatch. Muskies/Pike just cruising by will bump a bait sometimes, but with the yap shut and every time when the bait is not moving. An 'almost' with the mouth open and lure taken but the bait ends up out of the mouth always looks like a hit and immediate rejection or a badly timed hookset.
Bass will make a man crazy bumping, chasing, following, and not hitting a live minnow under the ice.
I've seen some aquarium based fish display the behavior you are referencing and bluegills and crappies that are not triggering to hit are famous for it ice fishing, sucking a bait part way in and blowing it out in a millisecond. Usually leaving the bait dead still in front of a gill or crappie that refuses to hit again will illicit a little 'peck' if anything at all, then the fish backs off, comes in and 'pecks' again, then commits IF the little pecks hit the live bait and not tungsten. I have about a half hundred catches like that on camera with gills; a feeding response, not strike response, and nothing at all to do with color, they already clearly saw and responded to the bait from a distance. In any case, it would be a situation that doesn't involve a muskie lure in retrieval, I'd think.
We have a new Aqua-Vu Quad 1080P we'll be shooting the lures and stuff on. It features true color tech, so what we get will be quality.
Cold out there tonight.
Our top viewed Aqua-View video so far this year is a walleye totally rejecting the tip-up minnow, then just moments later coming back, sitting still watching the minnow.....and WHACK in a jolting strike. Keith got that video, and we called it a "Walleye's Bad Decision'. |
|
| |
|
| sworrall - 2/8/2021 10:47 PM
In the world of Esox, I believe it's pretty much a lock, semantics aside. In my experience watching the Aqua-Vu, any moving object that gets taken by an Esox generally ends up pretty far down the hatch. Muskies/Pike just cruising by will bump a bait sometimes, but with the yap shut and every time when the bait is not moving. An 'almost' with the mouth open and lure taken but the bait ends up out of the mouth always looks like a hit and immediate rejection or a badly timed hookset.
Bass will make a man crazy bumping, chasing, following, and not hitting a live minnow under the ice.
I've seen some aquarium based fish display the behavior you are referencing and bluegills and crappies that are not triggering to hit are famous for it ice fishing, sucking a bait part way in and blowing it out in a millisecond. Usually leaving the bait dead still in front of a gill or crappie that refuses to hit again will illicit a little 'peck' if anything at all, then the fish backs off, comes in and 'pecks' again, then commits IF the little pecks hit the live bait and not tungsten. I have about a half hundred catches like that on camera with gills; a feeding response, not strike response, and nothing at all to do with color, they already clearly saw and responded to the bait from a distance. In any case, it would be a situation that doesn't involve a muskie lure in retrieval, I'd think.
We have a new Aqua-Vu Quad 1080P we'll be shooting the lures and stuff on. It features true color tech, so what we get will be quality.
Cold out there tonight.
Our top viewed Aqua-View video so far this year is a walleye totally rejecting the tip-up minnow, then just moments later coming back, sitting still watching the minnow.....and WHACK in a jolting strike. Keith got that video, and we called it a "Walleye's Bad Decision'.
I thought the one of a pike grabbing the minnow off a tip up and darting away without getting hooked was pretty cool. |
|
| |
|
Posts: 1938
Location: Black Creek, WI | <p>Can't believe noone mentioned the Purkinje Shift yet. Steve hinted at it.....</p><p> </p><p>Google it if you don't know.... </p><p> </p>
Edited by jlong 2/9/2021 9:47 AM
|
|
| |
|
Posts: 114
| location>action>speed>presentation>fig 8>size>confidence>contrast>......... color
All things I typically would think of before color.
However, as a lure maker myself - fin detail>shading of the gill plate>scale pattern>foil base>glitter>custom eyes>color shift> I could go on, but these all attract fisherman, not fish. lol |
|
| |
|
Posts: 32954
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Eastman03 - 2/9/2021 10:38 AM
location>action>speed>presentation>fig 8>size>confidence>contrast>......... color
All things I typically would think of before color.
However, as a lure maker myself - fin detail>shading of the gill plate>scale pattern>foil base>glitter>custom eyes>color shift> I could go on, but these all attract fisherman, not fish. lol
Color is contrast or lack thereof. I want the fish to see the lure so the rest matters as much as it should. |
|
| |
|
Posts: 2754
Location: Mauston, Wisconsin | jlong - 2/9/2021 9:45 AM
Can't believe noone mentioned the Purkinje Shift yet. Steve hinted at it..... Google it if you don't know....
LOL! I was tempted!!!
Have fun!
Al |
|
| |
|
Posts: 32954
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | 'Purkinje effect
The Purkinje effect is the tendency for the peak luminance sensitivity of the eye to shift toward the blue end of the color spectrum at low illumination levels as part of dark adaptation. In consequence, reds will appear darker relative to other colors as light levels decrease.'
Red is the first color (wavelength) to be filtered out by the water column anyway, the first color to disappear as light goes down from sun angle and blue is the last. Red will immediately look darker anyway, because it is.
https://oceanexplorer.noaa.gov/facts/red-color.html
Arguably, one negates consideration of the other in practical use, yes or no?
|
|
| |
|
Posts: 8855
| Since we rarely fish for muskies at any considerable depth, I'd agree. If we did fish deep enough for red to appear as black, I'd sure want some blue bars to go with that red lure. Funny though, you rarely see patterns on a lure that are on opposite sides of the color wheel. Seems everybody wants them to look just like a fish that has evolved over thousands of years to blend in well with its environment as a defense against predators.
|
|
| |
|
Posts: 2754
Location: Mauston, Wisconsin | Jason, What are your thought's 20 years later?
https://muskie.outdoorsfirst.com/board/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=12...
Have fun!
Al
Edited by ESOX Maniac 2/10/2021 9:31 AM
(electromagnetic_spectrum.png)
Attachments
----------------
electromagnetic_spectrum.png (345KB - 371 downloads)
|
|
| |
|
Posts: 1938
Location: Black Creek, WI | Al, my thoughts have not changed much over the years. I'm still a believer in the Purkinje Shift and you will see that my first color choice between sunset and darkness has at least a splash of is chartruese or lime green. Overcast conditions? Can't beat firetiger even in clear water situations. No guarantees, but certainly a good starting point if you must consider color as part of your lure selecting process. |
|
| |
|
Posts: 32954
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | 'The Purkinje effect (sometimes called the Purkinje shift) is the tendency for the peak luminance sensitivity of the eye to shift toward the blue end of the color spectrum at low illumination levels as part of dark adaptation.[1][2][page needed] In consequence, reds will appear darker relative to other colors as light levels decrease. The effect is named after the Czech anatomist Jan Evangelista Purkyne. While the effect is often described from the perspective of the human eye, it is well established in a number of animals under the same name to describe the general shifting of spectral sensitivity due to pooling of rod and cone output signals as a part of dark/light adaptation.[3][4][5][6]
This effect introduces a difference in color contrast under different levels of illumination. For instance, in bright sunlight, geranium flowers appear bright red against the dull green of their leaves, or adjacent blue flowers, but in the same scene viewed at dusk, the contrast is reversed, with the red petals appearing a dark red or black, and the leaves and blue petals appearing relatively bright.
The sensitivity to light in scotopic vision varies with wavelength, though the perception is essentially black-and-white. The Purkinje shift is the relation between the absorption maximum of rhodopsin, reaching a maximum at about 500 nm, and that of the opsins in the longer-wavelength cones that dominate in photopic vision, about 555 nm (green).[7]
In visual astronomy, the Purkinje shift can affect visual estimates of variable stars when using comparison stars of different colors, especially if one of the stars is red.[8]
Physiology
The Purkinje effect occurs at the transition between primary use of the photopic (cone-based) and scotopic (rod-based) systems, that is, in the mesopic state: as intensity dims, the rods take over, and before color disappears completely, it shifts towards the rods' top sensitivity.[9]
The effect occurs because in mesopic conditions the outputs of cones in the retina, which are generally responsible for the perception of color in daylight, are pooled with outputs of rods which are more sensitive under those conditions and have peak sensitivity in blue-green wavelength of 507 nm.
Use of red lights
The insensitivity of rods to long-wavelength light has led to the use of red lights under certain special circumstances—for example, in the control rooms of submarines, in research laboratories, aircraft, or during naked-eye astronomy.[10]
Red lights are used in conditions where it is desirable to activate both the photopic and scotopic systems. Submarines are well lit to facilitate the vision of the crew members working there, but the control room must be lit differently to allow crew members to read instrument panels yet remain dark adjusted. By using red lights or wearing red goggles, the cones can receive enough light to provide photopic vision (namely the high-acuity vision required for reading). The rods are not saturated by the bright red light because they are not sensitive to long-wavelength light, so the crew members remain dark adapted.[11] Similarly, airplane cockpits use red lights so pilots can read their instruments and maps while maintaining night vision to see outside the aircraft.
Red lights are also often used in research settings. Many research animals (such as rats and mice) have limited photopic vision, as they have far fewer cone photoreceptors.[12] The animal subjects do not perceive red lights and thus experience darkness (the active period for nocturnal animals), but the human researchers, who have one kind of cone (the "L cone") that is sensitive to long wavelengths, are able to read instruments or perform procedures that would be impractical even with fully dark adapted (but low acuity) scotopic vision.[13] For the same reason, zoo displays of nocturnal animals often are illuminated with red light.
-----------------------------------------------------------
I'll point out a couple factors that mitigate this to a degree in the case of freshwater gamefish and the muskie.
1) The muskie's eye adapts to changing light levels by going from rod to cone vision. It occurs on a clock basis and is not a reaction to light levels dropping at exactly the same time rods extend and cones retract, so change occurs when it happens on the 24 hour clock seasonally, same time every day.
Since sunlight penetrating the water column is the main source of illumination underwater, and color is dependant upon the availability of that wavelength to be reflected back to the fish, and the fish has to be able to have the cone vision at least partially in play. Humans can go from cone to rod and back to cone quickly when the light goes up and down, not so much for the fishes. Two factors to consider, rod vision acquired at the same time every 24 hour period and cone vision fully acquired at the same clock time each 24 hour period and a fixed pupil incapable of shielding out suddenly increased light. Why don't fish pupils expand and contract like ours? They don't need to, there's not the same amount of light down there. ALL of this is a cool discussion, and if one can figure out when the shift would affect a muskie's vision it's debatable. However, there's a big problem.
Sunlight at sun noon breaks down quickly in the water column. Particulate accelerates that by diffusing and absorbing light. In most lakes we fish red is gone in 10 to 15 feet anyway, the wavelength has been refracted, absorbed, and is not present. It's only sun noon for a short time. Before and after that, the sun angle will allow the water surface to reflect light back into the atmosphere. We all know that from the eye strain and sunburn that causes. If the white light is 30 percent reflected, that dramatically affects how much light is penetrating and creates a situation where the color underwater is vastly more muted than above. Waves accelerate that issue by busting up the light. Red is gone really fast. Blue penetrates the best and is still available IF light penetration is strong enough to allow color perception at all. There's little to no color at all in 15' most of the day. I've proven that out with high definition Aqua-Vu 1080P cameras with objectives far larger than a muskie eye, and therefore capable of gathering far more light. It gets dark fast down there long before the sun hits the horizon. All blue/green is gone. It's basically black and white. Add clouds and during the winter, snow cover, and it's tough to get a pretty, vivid color video. I carry a shovel to clear the ice and don't shoot on cloudy days on open water.
Add to all this the fact Esox basically have an upward stereoscopic vision field starting at a zero point a few inches from their eyes and widening with distance and they are looking through the water column from under your bait, and it becomes hard to believe they can see color patterns like Firetiger as anything but a combined contrast to the background. Add that they are nearsighted, and things really get interesting.
Think about the lusher green vegetation and where it disappears on the contour lines of your sonar on your favorite lakes. Where the weeds are gone, that's the exact depth where there not enough light for photosynthesis. On Moen, that's about 3' some years. On Pelican, it's about 10 most years, if the water is very clear maybe as much as 12. In 20 my cameras don't work well enough to record during open water on most lakes around here. No light.
|
|
| |
|
| The line about poor depth perception and blind spot straight ahead was really interesting. Would explain how a fish can repeatedly miss a large, noisy topwater like a Fat B, moving steadily in a straight line. Have seen the same thing with a Weagle, other wtd baits, but chalked that up to erratic path the lure follows. |
|
| |
|
Posts: 343
| My friend Don Pursch was the first person to point out to me about muskies having a blind spot directly ahead, especially when they open their mouth. Definitely makes sense. |
|
| |
|
Posts: 32954
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Don has always been a 'thinking' sort of fisherman. |
|
| |
|
Posts: 32954
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Here are some images and video to show what happens underwater to color and light. The timestamp in the video tells the story. It's bright and sunny out with the snow scraped away from the shelter. The small jig is black with red stripes on the bottom on a glow white background and sides. The larger bait has multi-color spots on a glow white background.
Fish in video and above the water with very bright sunlight. Note the black and red gill spot. See the video to watch what happens as the light goes down.
Watch video here! Scroll through slowly if you don't want to watch the whole thing.
The sun set at 4:59, and it's plenty light enough to fish for a half hour, but the light under the water is gone. There is plenty enough light above to see and fish for another 20 minutes to half an hour. I intentionally point the camera at the sun, pointing it the other direction makes for much darker video. Contrast...
Video is not from the 1080 HD7i, that's next. it's from a Micro 5 Revolution Pro, resolution is 960X576. Lens objective is much smaller than the 7i, bur larger than a fish's eye.
Attachments
----------------
Untitled.png (337KB - 385 downloads)
20210131_171513.jpg (102KB - 385 downloads)
|
|
| |
|
Posts: 186
| Since color is a big debate, how many times has a bait of a certain baitfish caught fish when none of those were in the lake? For example, lakes without walleye, shad,perch,whitefish or any others, do you still catch fish with those baits that aren't present?
|
|
| |
|
Posts: 32954
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Muskyrookie - 2/13/2021 7:21 PM
Since color is a big debate, how many times has a bait of a certain baitfish caught fish when none of those were in the lake? For example, lakes without walleye, shad,perch,whitefish or any others, do you still catch fish with those baits that aren't present?
Lures do not act, look, or sound like natural prey. If they did they would not work anywhere near as well. The colors are not right either. Doesn't mean anything other than the obvious, actually. |
|
| |
