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Location: 31 | The other day we had a fish inhale this large profile 7 ½” bait so deeply the rear hook was dangling outside her gill cover. We immediately removed that hook with 1 cut from the large bolt cutters, and then went to work removing a buried 7/0 from her tongue… it took both of us.
With the amount of blood she was losing I initially thought this fish was a goner, but after surgery she stopped bleeding and swam away. There's no way to know if she survived, but we gave her the best chance by not even lifting her out of the water alongside the boat for a picture. With that said; I would bet against a fluorocarbon leader surviving the open mouth head shakes.
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Posts: 2325
Location: Chisholm, MN | I’ve had many baits like that and my fluorocarbon leaders never break. I find the weakest point is a snap or a split ring. I don’t think split rings are the answer either. I’ve seen those start to come off more often than a stalock snap. Just change out snaps often and use heavy leaders. I use both wire and flouro depending on the bait I’m throwing. |
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Posts: 17
| What # strength fluoro are you using? I hear/read so many differing opinions on leaders it makes my head spin. I've thought about going to straight wire or stranded wire tied directly to the lure, but that's not very practical for the most part. |
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Posts: 2269
Location: SE, WI. | HERE WE GO  THE GREAT DEBATE.....:) JD |
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| never had issue with either type. i will say that one should slide your thumb and index finger down the flouro before using to make sure no burs are present. |
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Posts: 343
| I lost a mid 40's muskie on a brand new 100 lb flouro leader, that was cut in half, so some fish can and do cut flouro leaders. Not sure if it was the fishes teeth or gillplates. It isn't a common occurence but it can happen, never had a wire get cut, though kinked ones will sometimes break. I guess it is up to the angler to decide, just can't say with any certainty that flouro will never cut. |
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| Agree 100% Jerry. I have had too many instances to mention when the leaders inside the mouth, so wire is all I use. |
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Posts: 2325
Location: Chisholm, MN | true tiger tamer - 8/15/2020 12:35 PM
I lost a mid 40's muskie on a brand new 100 lb flouro leader, that was cut in half, so some fish can and do cut flouro leaders. Not sure if it was the fishes teeth or gillplates. It isn't a common occurence but it can happen, never had a wire get cut, though kinked ones will sometimes break. I guess it is up to the angler to decide, just can't say with any certainty that flouro will never cut.
100 pound is too small. 130 minimum. |
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Posts: 20219
Location: oswego, il | While I am.not argueing against I have had fish inhale baits with flouro sticking out of their mouth and not slice it. I did have it slice on a strike of a twitch bait where the bait turned parallel to the leader, thankfully never got a hookset and got the lure back. It also depends on where you fish and the size. My examples are from Indiana fish where Minnesota anglers will have a much different opinion. |
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Posts: 489
Location: Northern Illinois | I've had new 135# floro cut by fish in the past and I mostly use wire now. I am going to try some 175# floro leaders that I had Leaders and Lures make for me. |
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Location: 31 | I don't understand how 100lb test is to too light and unfit to use, but 130lb test is going to be bulletproof. Obviously the 130 is heavier but sincerely having some difficulty comprehending how that could make *the* difference. I should mention that I found several large cuts and abrasions in the coated leader, so I know it was raked back and forth across the canines during her violent handshakes.
TTT, “just can't say with any certainty that flouro will never cut.” Actually you can say for certain that fluorocarbon can be cut because you had it happen. Heck, RL had it happen with 135lb. In my mind it's fairly easy to assume that there could even be a problem with 175lb if it gets raked back and forth in the same spot during headshakes. I remember a few years ago someone posting a video of a muskie cutting a leader while being netted... I'd like to see that again.
Todd, are you saying you had a leader get cut in half without even a hook-set… if so do you remember what pound test? “Thankfully never got a hookset and got the lure back”
I didn't post this to be argumentative, more as a source of information to help newer anglers make a more informed decision on their leader choice. Our sport has been growing exponentially. |
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Location: Northern Wisconsin | Years back I caught a mid-upper 30 on a bucktail with A 150 lb flouro leader. Got it in the net just fine and as I went to get release tools it was thrashing around, like any muskie does. Went to unhook it and the leader was cut in half. That was enough proof for me. I sometimes fish some fish the clearest trout water in northern wisconsin and strictly use straight wire leaders and still catch fish. I’m sure the chances of the leader getting cut is low but I’m not going to risk it. I’ve lost many fish due to broken line, weak snaps, split rings, etc so I’m not trying for another due to flouro getting cut. |
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Posts: 20219
Location: oswego, il | Jerry, this is good discussion as I stated not argueing against. I was using 100lb flouro. It was the only time in 22 years of using it I had it slice. Like I stated people's perspective will change on where they fish and the average size. The Minnesota crowd will use heavier flouro due to having more bad experiences with 100lb than someone who fishes places like indiana and northern Wisconsin. Those opinions will most always be different.
Edited by ToddM 8/16/2020 8:24 AM
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Posts: 716
| A couple thousand MN muskies on flouro casting in my boat with zero failures. I only use 150 pounds or greater and hand tie mine. |
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Location: Chisholm, MN | Jerry Newman - 8/16/2020 7:52 AM
I don't understand how 100lb test is to too light and unfit to use, but 130lb test is going to be bulletproof. Obviously the 130 is heavier but sincerely having some difficulty comprehending how that could make *the* difference. I should mention that I found several large cuts and abrasions in the coated leader, so I know it was raked back and forth across the canines during her violent handshakes.
TTT, “just can't say with any certainty that flouro will never cut.” Actually you can say for certain that fluorocarbon can be cut because you had it happen. Heck, RL had it happen with 135lb. In my mind it's fairly easy to assume that there could even be a problem with 175lb if it gets raked back and forth in the same spot during headshakes. I remember a few years ago someone posting a video of a muskie cutting a leader while being netted... I'd like to see that again.
Todd, are you saying you had a leader get cut in half without even a hook-set… if so do you remember what pound test? “Thankfully never got a hookset and got the lure back”
I didn't post this to be argumentative, more as a source of information to help newer anglers make a more informed decision on their leader choice. Our sport has been growing exponentially.
130 is not bulletproof but as a minimum it can be used. I prefer heavier. Obviously it can be cut but like bturg says, thousands of fish in his boat and a butt load in mine with zero failures, I’ll take my chances. It can happen obviously, but pretty rare. Wire can break too. Snaps, swivels, baits, hooks, split rings and line can all break. I’ve seen all of those break, but never flourocarbon. What does that mean? |
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Posts: 16
| I don't necessarily understand the point of fluoro to begin with. Do we really think a wire leader in front of a bait with 3 treble hooks on it is really going to keep a musky from biting? Why even risk it? If there is some other reason then i am all ears. |
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Posts: 2325
Location: Chisholm, MN | For me it’s not about visibility . It’s about performance on rubber baits mainly. Although bnelson made me some 49 strand leaders i plan to try this fall for that purpose. |
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Posts: 716
| For me it's about performance:
1.Visibility can matter in any fishing, some days it doesn't but some days it will...think about the amount of hardware hanging on live bait and how it can matter...I do use wire for the hardware aspect of live bait though.
2.Rubber is way better on flouro...never kinks.
3.If it gets damaged you can see the damage...that said it is VERY durable. Before Flouro I had stranded leaders fail with no warning or signs of stress/wear.
4. Cranks perform way better and topwater does as well.
5. Gliders don't track back to center on a pause (less weight)
6. It's going to make a different vibration than wire on the figure 8...I can't say which is better/worse on a given day but it is a variable. Before you laugh at that listen to a figure 8 under water...there is a significant noise change thru the corners from the line/leader/rod in the water.
There are more but that's a short list. If it gets you 20% more bites in a year with fractional risk...(wire does fail also) to me it's worth it. That said I have not had any failures so "risk" is pretty relative. |
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Posts: 8782
| For me, it's twpfold:
1. No kinking when working rubber baits/gliders/ripping a crankbait
2. Flouro is neutrally buoyant. I've had solid wire leaders kill the action of smaller baits because they sink and pull the nose of the bait down for example.
I still use wire for gliders and (some) walk the dogs, and 7 strand for my sucker rigs, but pretty much everything else is 130# flouro. If it ain't broke... |
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Location: 31 | I absolutely agree that the heavier fluorocarbon will have less of a chance of failure, same with heavier wire leaders, snaps, screw eyes etc/ect. I probably overstated the 175lb fluorocarbon failure potential because that's some thick heavy stuff. Like many, my point of reference has always been that a leader was primarily used to prevent bite offs, as well as to help protect the fish when they roll up in the line... coated wire and heavy floral to a nice job of this.
I used lighter fluorocarbon (100-130?) trolling in clear water situations years ago, but I'm definitely rethinking that now after this encounter because even after literally hundreds of 30-45lb muskies boated with wire, I've never seen an entire bait get engulfed quite like that... I'd be nervous with any flavor fluorocarbon for that one instance. I tried to take some pictures of the wire leader, but they didn't do it justice because – well - it's wire and other than the chewed up coating there was no damage, or chance of a bite threw.
Although we've all had leaders fail, comparing a failed wire leader to the bite off potential with fluorocarbon seems unjust to me. All things being equal construction wise, even the lightest wire leaders will not have a problem with bite through, and any terminal tackle that’s not properly constructed, or gets overused is a recipe for disaster. I 100% agree that there is very real potential for a problem with wire kinking, but that's typically with the lighter stuff, and probably equal to the issues with using lighter fluorocarbon. Obviously the lighter you go with any line or leader, the more potential there will be for a catastrophic failure. This is a little off subject, but that's why I quit trolling with monel wire years ago. A kink you don't notice = epic fail.
With all that being said; I've certainly been enlightened with why it's okay to use heavier fluorocarbon, and as thinking-responsible anglers, we just need to be clear when we talk about and compare them. I personally think that 80-100lb fluorocarbon should probably never be *endorsed* for muskie.
Edited by Jerry Newman 8/17/2020 8:14 AM
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Posts: 108
| To the guys who use fluoro for rubber. Try a #175 49 strand wire leader and you will never look back! I use fluoro for most everything, but big rubber is often headhunter by big muskies and I prefer the 49 strand wire. I also think you can rip through heavy weeds with less fouling with wire vs the thicker fluoro... which can be an advantage to getting bit.
49 strand is great for trolling rocky areas in the fall too...doesn't get the abrasion that fluoro does. Just check your crimps from time to time if banging rocks. |
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Location: 31 | Brett Waldera - 8/17/2020 8:04 AM To the guys who use fluoro for rubber. Try a #175 49 strand wire leader and you will never look back! I use fluoro for most everything, but big rubber is often headhunter by big muskies and I prefer the 49 strand wire. I also think you can rip through heavy weeds with less fouling with wire vs the thicker fluoro... which can be an advantage to getting bit. 49 strand is great for trolling rocky areas in the fall too...doesn't get the abrasion that fluoro does. Just check your crimps from time to time if banging rocks. I was actually surprised with the endorsement of using heavy floral with big rubber, but thought if guys who use it all the time don't have a problem with it then it's probably okay. However, if the heavy floral can be a problem with baits they like to headhunt, I’m leaning back towards not using it myself because they pretty much head hunt everything.
Before fluorocarbon, I was primarily a caster and used my share of erratic baits, even with bucktails I would sometimes find a kink in my leader after a strike from the missed bite.
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Location: Contrarian Island | BobT have you tried 175 lb 49 strand for rubber? I'm guessing no.. the stuff is more 'pliable' than 180 lb fluoro so imo you get better 'performance'. I use 49 strand for rubber as any bait they will head shot is asking for trouble with fluoro. after using 49 strand for 5 or 6 yrs for rubber I would never go back to fluoro.. if you have never had a failure with fluoro that is great. but if a 50+ head shots a fluoro leader and it does fail what will you do ? keep using it?
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Posts: 716
| Hey Brad, I just don't think it's going to happen. My sample size with big rubber isn't as large as with other stuff but I simply have not had any issues, heck I throw jigs with flouro...plus I'm getting too old to throw big rubber anymore 
That said I'm guessing what your using is a good option for big rubber. |
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Posts: 3518
Location: north central wisconsin | This is a good topic, and a timely one as I've been talking to my girls and guys I take out, just why I slowly shifted back away from Floro for all but certain finnesse approaches. As a scientist by trade, I like data, which I gather through experimentation, trials, other experiences, knowledge gleaned from others. And as someone rather anal regarding my approach to targeting big fish, I appreciate all of the data and ensuing results that experience provides.
When floro leaders first became a thing(late 90's) I adhered immediately. Soon I was running floro on anything but gliders/WTD's/sucker rig business end. Over time, I realized that heavy musky floro(130 lb) leader use was not only not an advantage in terms of visibility, but was very much a disadvantage to most of my fishing methods and production. It took time to realize this(switching back and forth), and I won't get into all of the details of why it was a detriment to certain lure types for me, other than to say the list of lures that it either enhances action or production over steel is an extremely short one for me.
With that being said, I am a huge advocate of floro for walleye and bass fishing with jigs, finnesse rigs, certain cranks, and it has definately accounted for an uptick in bites when using floro in 20lb sizes and less. And it is more abrasion resistant than the thin no stretch line I use. The jury is still out if the 50lb stuff I've been experimenting with the past few seasons for tipupo pike, is truly an advantage. I do know it is a coily mess when the kid winds up in a Beaver Dam.
Edited by Reef Hawg 8/19/2020 2:21 PM
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| Interesting discussion. Lot to think about here. I guess I have been fortunate not to have a failure of either floro or wire leader, but have had snaps fail. Going to check out the 49 strand wire, have never used that. |
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Posts: 320
| Anybody else use hard mono leaders? I’ve been using them for many years with no problems. I think it’s actually tougher than flouro. It seems harder to cut where flouro seems softer. I make my leaders with mostly the 80lb test but have also used 100lb. Cost is cheaper than flouro too. I tie it to the mainline with the SG knot and use a tarpon knot on the lure end with a swivel and staylok snap. I don’t throw pounders with these leaders tho. Mostly topwater, medium blades, cranks and jerkbaits. |
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Posts: 305
| The whole topic of leaders and connections is a powderkeg. Our group is divided into those that fish only lower 48/ontario for toothies/multispecies and those that also fish remote fly in pike twice each summer(where we average 50+ fish per angler per day with average of 2 fish over 20 lb per angler per day, largest ever 32 lb). The later group trend strongly away from plastic leaders because of failures. The less detail oriented in each group use snaps, the more OCD in each group use quality split rings/solid ring connections sized appropriately for bait/lure. Big topic that most just wont get deep into. Those that do find the tweeking never ends, but lessens over time. What do others find in their fishing friends?
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Location: Chisholm, MN | esoxlucifer - 8/20/2020 11:04 AM
The whole topic of leaders and connections is a powderkeg. Our group is divided into those that fish only lower 48/ontario for toothies/multispecies and those that also fish remote fly in pike twice each summer(where we average 50+ fish per angler per day with average of 2 fish over 20 lb per angler per day, largest ever 32 lb). The later group trend strongly away from plastic leaders because of failures. The less detail oriented in each group use snaps, the more OCD in each group use quality split rings/solid ring connections sized appropriately for bait/lure. Big topic that most just wont get deep into. Those that do find the tweeking never ends, but lessens over time. What do others find in their fishing friends?
I have one fishing partner that refuses to change a snap or a leader all season. He thinks it’s fine. Drives me insane. I give him a new staylock when we fish and force him to put it on. Otherwise he would never change. |
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Posts: 305
| Lol. Yeah, that would drive me nuts too. |
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Posts: 20219
Location: oswego, il | I have made some hard mono leaders. It is harder than flouro for sure but very visible and never straight it's always curved from being in a coil. |
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Posts: 21
| In the off-season I'm going to start making my own fluoro leaders. I was thinking of 130 lb, and for my area I think that should be sufficient! |
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Posts: 355
Location: Selkirk, Manitoba | ToddC - 8/19/2020 9:57 PM
Anybody else use hard mono leaders? I’ve been using them for many years with no problems. I think it’s actually tougher than flouro. It seems harder to cut where flouro seems softer. I make my leaders with mostly the 80lb test but have also used 100lb. Cost is cheaper than flouro too. I tie it to the mainline with the SG knot and use a tarpon knot on the lure end with a swivel and staylok snap. I don’t throw pounders with these leaders tho. Mostly topwater, medium blades, cranks and jerkbaits.
I make 130 lb mono leaders for some of my applications. I've caught loads of head-hunting large pike and a few muskies and no issues so far.
My experiences over the years using fluoro leaders on superlines for walleye/bass in pike waters is that it has been brutally inferior to just straight mono (ie having caught probably thousands of pike now on straight mono - jigs, lindy rigs, spinner rigs, etc. My sense is once fluoro is nicked it fails quickly (at least the brands I've used for this application - all quality well known ones hyped as abrasion resistant).
Check out these vids from these saltwater guys:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jott758rPT4&t=1618s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KiQTvmM-1cY&t=5s
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Location: 31 | Angling Oracle - 8/26/2020 2:45 PM ToddC - 8/19/2020 9:57 PM Anybody else use hard mono leaders? I’ve been using them for many years with no problems. I think it’s actually tougher than flouro. It seems harder to cut where flouro seems softer. I make my leaders with mostly the 80lb test but have also used 100lb. Cost is cheaper than flouro too. I tie it to the mainline with the SG knot and use a tarpon knot on the lure end with a swivel and staylok snap. I don’t throw pounders with these leaders tho. Mostly topwater, medium blades, cranks and jerkbaits. I make 130 lb mono leaders for some of my applications. I've caught loads of head-hunting large pike and a few muskies and no issues so far. My experiences over the years using fluoro leaders on superlines for walleye/bass in pike waters is that it has been brutally inferior to just straight mono (ie having caught probably thousands of pike now on straight mono - jigs, lindy rigs, spinner rigs, etc. My sense is once fluoro is nicked it fails quickly (at least the brands I've used for this application - all quality well known ones hyped as abrasion resistant ). Check out these vids from these saltwater guys: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jott758rPT4&t=1618s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KiQTvmM-1cY&t=5s These posts and that side-by-side floral versus mono u-tube test is pretty interesting. Thank you |
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Posts: 114
| Angling Oracle, thanks for finding these clips. Been making my own fluoro and wire leaders for years. Hard to justify continuing using fluoro over cheap mono. |
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Posts: 3518
Location: north central wisconsin | Angling Oracle - 8/26/2020 2:45 PM
My sense is once fluoro is nicked it fails quickly (at least the brands I've used for this application - all quality well known ones hyped as abrasion resistant).
I will watch the video. My reasoning for using floro over mono(in addition to it being near colorless) for walleye/bass, is the fact that it takes more nicks than mono prior to fail. With that said, like you, I have had certain brand/sized floro break with almost zero pressure while fishing zeb beds for smallies and walleyes on the bay or rocks in rivers across midwest. After switching to a higher lb(14 for bass/walleye) in another style in these situations, it performs better than the mono or braid in same lb in same situation. There are alot of variables when it comes to this, but I have definately wasted alot of time/money on some very expensive inferior(or perhaps incorrect) florocarbon prior to settling on the brands/styles I use for each application.
Edited by Reef Hawg 8/30/2020 8:43 PM
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