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Posts: 48
| So I always wanted to ask this question. Should a guide on a guided trip be fishing with you or not? I know there are guides on this forum monitoring the conversations people have, and I want you to know that this is nothing against you. This is just me asking a question. About eight years ago I was on a guided trip with a buddy of mine in southern Illinois. We come to our fist spot of the day and the guide gives us the rod with some crank baits and then he starts to fish. We ended up seeing 2 fish and had one follow between the two of us. The guide caught 4 fish and had numerous follows that day. Two years ago I had a guided trip down in Florida going after king mackerel and the guide never looked at the rod. All he was doing is talking to us and positioning the boat to get on a good bite.
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Location: Contrarian Island | for musky fishing, yes, from the back or last bait thru... more baits in the water will help figure out what baits might be working best to get the hits. once that is figured out the clients should be using those baits.. if that guide caught 4 and he had you throwing a different style of bait he's not a very good guide  |
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Posts: 719
| Personally I generally let the customer decide if I fish, especially if casting at targets. If they want me to fish I’d never get the first cast into any spot. If just fan casting the open lake with no specific target or drifting the river vertical jigging, 99% of my clients want me to have a rod in too. It gives them confidence. |
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Posts: 4269
Location: Ashland WI | Personally, I want the guide fishing. Like has been said, more baits in the water helps figure things out.
That being said, if he is keeping the "hot" bait to himself, and his lure is in the water before yours every spot, he is not doing a very good job IMO. |
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Posts: 485
Location: On my favorite lake! | Depends on the guide. They should definitely ask you or explain what they hope to accomplish by fishing. Some guides can fish and instruct and some guides can’t. The job is to put you on the fish.
Some guides are not guides but simply fisherman that want $ to pay for their trip. It’s best to ask around before booking when possible , so the experience is good. |
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Posts: 48
| I do agree with the more baits in the water the better the chances to figure things out. With that being said, Yes that guy was not that good and I don't think he guides anymore in that area.. Personally I don't care if they fish or not as long as they are sharing their knowledge. Guides are no magicians they cant make a fish bite, and I have been on plenty of guided trips where no one caught anything but what we learned from that day helped us during the course of the trip to get on some fish... |
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Posts: 1392
Location: Brighton CO. | yes as long as I get first water! |
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| Have only been on one guided trip and while I encouraged the guide to fish, show us the techniques he like to use, he said he preferred to coach and keep the boat positioned. It was a nice day but pretty good breeze and he was very fussy about having the boat positioned just so. Also, he had a guide trip that morning with a friend of mine and fished about half the time so maybe he was content to just coach, watch, run the boat. I had never used a Bobbie bait and he suggested I use that. We had a good laugh when he was going to demonstrate and realized I was using my left handed reel. He cast the lure and then said "Where's the handle?" But he did show me how he liked to work the bait. |
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Posts: 51
| Depends on why you hired him in the 1st place and if he delivered on those expectations IMO... I can see how if you bought this trip to get trophy pics and end up with nada and the guy caught 4 in your face could be quite frustrating, especially if he just handed you a rod, reel and lure to figure the rest out for yourself.
Personally, if I were to ever hire a Muskie guide, I'd ask him to save the hassle of getting his boat out and instead ask him to meet me in a coffee shop where I'd wait for him with a map of his lake, a notebook and tons of questions about where he planned to take me that day and why.
The true value of a guide is what you learned from the trip, not what you get to post on facebook afterwards IMO
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Posts: 22
| Musky fishing YES i want that guide fishing. I have only been guided once for musky and my guide fished along with me. One it was a mandatory thing for me. I didn't want a guide/guided experience. Just wanted to guys enjoying the day fishing and BSing. He was able to show me many different techniques including boat control and reading the side scan which I had just put on my boat the week before. He was on the phone here and there talking with other guides about what they were using and seeing. It was a great experience and the only fish we saw was on the graph. It was a high sky day and windy as all get out. He even tried to refund me $100. I said no and gave him another $100 as a tip. |
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Posts: 48
| MKevin - 6/25/2020 2:21 PM
Depends on why you hired him in the 1st place and if he delivered on those expectations IMO... I can see how if you bought this trip to get trophy pics and end up with nada and the guy caught 4 in your face could be quite frustrating, especially if he just handed you a rod, reel and lure to figure the rest out for yourself.
Personally, if I were to ever hire a Muskie guide, I'd ask him to save the hassle of getting his boat out and instead ask him to meet me in a coffee shop where I'd wait for him with a map of his lake, a notebook and tons of questions about where he planned to take me that day and why.
The true value of a guide is what you learned from the trip, not what you get to post on facebook afterwards IMO
I'm with you 100%.. I like your approach about meeting up before and going over the game plan. |
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Posts: 3
Location: Loves Park | I personally want the guide fishing. I agree more baits in the water will help figure out a pattern faster. But also its nice to pay attention to the guides way of fishing. Certain ways he may work a bait, angle he may go into a figure 8, speed he is reeling, and so on..A lot can be learned visually. |
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Posts: 20218
Location: oswego, il | Some guides fish in the back, some take the front some don't fish at all. It's up to you to know what you want and hire the appropriate guide. |
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Posts: 2325
Location: Chisholm, MN | If you want to learn techniques then yeah he should fish from the back. If you’re experienced and just want him to put you on fish, then no he should just drive the boat. Unless it’s just the two of you. That would be boring being the only guy casting. If he doesn’t know the pattern already he might not be the best guide for the job.
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Posts: 99
Location: Tulsa, OK | If I was to hire a guide, I would want him to fish. There is a lot to learn watching someone fish that has had success on a lake. You can learn different techniques and maybe how to work baits you use a little differently. |
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Posts: 427
| Nope!! I didn't hire him to "compete" with during the day. I want him to position the boat, pick my baits, watch my technique and suggest improvements that will benefit my presentations. I am willing to be shown a different retrieve that he may suggest but after the SHORT lesson he needs to put the rod down. I paying for knowledge not demonstrations of his ability.
Edited by 7ovr50 6/25/2020 8:33 PM
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Posts: 267
| Howdy,
I'm a NO on this one. While I have experienced both, my preference is the guide NOT fish.
Take care,
Ruddiger |
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Posts: 101
| Generally I’d be fine with the guide casting, but when I hear a GB guide say “we marked one on side imagining, so I told him to make a cast in this direction... the fish didn’t follow on his cast so I made a cast at it and we stuck a giant”
That rubs me the wrong way. Hell, the guy paid $400, give him at least 10 casts at it before you start bombing casts at a fish U know exactly where it’s sitting. |
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Posts: 72
| I think the guide should always ask. I know that isn't always the case. I don't mind if they're casting from the back, but I'm not paying good money for one to throw from the front of the boat. |
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Posts: 48
| Jbo - 7/1/2020 8:15 PM
Generally I’d be fine with the guide casting, but when I hear a GB guide say “we marked one on side imagining, so I told him to make a cast in this direction... the fish didn’t follow on his cast so I made a cast at it and we stuck a giant”
That rubs me the wrong way. Hell, the guy paid $400, give him at least 10 casts at it before you start bombing casts at a fish U know exactly where it’s sitting.
I was going to hire a guide in the GB area early summer but after I saw that some are asking $900 for a days trip.. Soon muskie guides will make more money then off shore guides going after Marlins etc.. |
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Posts: 2325
Location: Chisholm, MN | badkemo - 7/6/2020 11:12 AM
Jbo - 7/1/2020 8:15 PM
Generally I’d be fine with the guide casting, but when I hear a GB guide say “we marked one on side imagining, so I told him to make a cast in this direction... the fish didn’t follow on his cast so I made a cast at it and we stuck a giant”
That rubs me the wrong way. Hell, the guy paid $400, give him at least 10 casts at it before you start bombing casts at a fish U know exactly where it’s sitting.
I was going to hire a guide in the GB area early summer but after I saw that some are asking $900 for a days trip.. Soon muskie guides will make more money then off shore guides going after Marlins etc..
Anything for a 50 incher! I agree about marking one on SI and not giving the client the proper chance to catch it. Under no condition should a guide cast at a known location of a fish. The client should catch it, or no one should. |
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Posts: 14
| I have never fished with a guide muskie fishing but I would want him to fish. As long as he is putting the customers success first. If I am doing fine and not needing extra help and hes just controlling the boat, why wouldn't I want an extra line in the water? He should be throwing something different. Maybe he stumbles into a subtle difference in the pattern. If so, he should give that bait to the customer and teach him what he is doing. If hes in the back fishing water you already casted, hes not taking anything from you. If he catches one, it just adds excitement to the day and I would think help boost confidence.
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Posts: 661
Location: Roscoe IL | I'm also one that likes the guide to fish. I also like it when people don't crash into the boat when heading to lake #2 with the guide.
Edited by ToothyCritter 7/7/2020 2:46 PM
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 BS - Boat Crash2.jpg (109KB - 501 downloads)
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Posts: 638
Location: Duluth | keel guard doesn't help there. Jeez.
I don't mind the guide fishing, but I would certainly have some words if the SI incident happened to me. |
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Posts: 90
| Mike Lazarus had an interesting take on this on The Backlash Podcast |
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Posts: 72
| medy - 7/8/2020 9:37 AM
Mike Lazarus had an interesting take on this on The Backlash Podcast
What did he say? |
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Posts: 2325
Location: Chisholm, MN | Lester Neigard - 7/8/2020 11:16 AM
medy - 7/8/2020 9:37 AM
Mike Lazarus had an interesting take on this on The Backlash Podcast
What did he say?
I would listen if you get an hour or so. Very good. He doesn’t fish when guiding at all but he drives from the front of the boat. He feels he had better boat control and helps his clients better from there. |
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Posts: 331
Location: Stevens Point, Wisconsin | When I guided I never fished. I felt my boat control was better and I could better instruct while standing in the middle of the boat watching. Most clients were surprised I didn't fish and often would ask me to fish. I just felt I could do a better job getting them on fish by not fishing. It also gave my arms and wrists a break and I had more time to look around and see how beautiful the lake was. |
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Posts: 20218
Location: oswego, il | Kirby Budrow - 7/8/2020 12:01 PM
Lester Neigard - 7/8/2020 11:16 AM
medy - 7/8/2020 9:37 AM
Mike Lazarus had an interesting take on this on The Backlash Podcast
What did he say?
I would listen if you get an hour or so. Very good. He doesn’t fish when guiding at all but he drives from the front of the boat. He feels he had better boat control and helps his clients better from there.
There is some great musky podcasting out there. Musky Road Rules, Backlash, UglyPike, Musky 360. Lazarus shared some great information and perspective. |
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Posts: 90
| He essentially says that his job is to manage the guys that he is guiding, it is not his job to catch fish. He doesn't fish when he guides. To paraphrase, he said his job as the guide is to focus on boat control so that the clients opportunities aren't wasted, to make sure he is fishing the best water/spots for the time and conditions. |
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Posts: 31
| Just watched a video where a guide critiqued his clients "jammed up" figure eights while he had the whole back deck of the boat to himself. His clients got to fish shoulder to shoulder on the front deck. He figure eighted fish his client brought to the boat. Glorious figure 8s at that. Lots of room to work with on the back deck. He also caught all the fish. Just seems backwards. Why not have a client on the front and back deck so their figure 8s DONT get all jammed up and they are able to have room to get a good hookset.
A good guide doesn't need to fish to figure out the pattern... . . Period. As generous, noble and heartfelt as that sounds it's hogwash. However, I totally understand if a client wants the guide to fish. I have hired guides and asked / preferred that they fished. Just wanted to see more action and excitement I guess.
Why are muskie guides the only guides that need to also fish to "figure out the pattern." Are muskies simply more unpredictable and difficult to pattern than other species?
Edited by cabbage 7/11/2020 12:11 AM
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Posts: 121
Location: Twin Cities Metro | cabbage - 7/10/2020 11:08 PM
Just watched a video where a guide critiqued his clients "jammed up" figure eights while he had the whole back deck of the boat to himself. His clients got to fish shoulder to shoulder on the front deck. He figure eighted fish his client brought to the boat. Glorious figure 8s at that. Lots of room to work with on the back deck. He also caught all the fish. Just seems backwards. Why not have a client on the front and back deck so their figure 8s DONT get all jammed up and they are able to have room to get a good hookset.
Getting jammed wasn’t all about being shoulder to shoulder in that video. It was because the guy wasn’t used to figure eighting a top water with a 10ft rod. That’s why the guide was telling him to step back to give himself some space when the bait was close to the boat, then step forward when the bait was away from the boat. Also, with those 10 foot rods, everyone needs to “desynchronize” their casts. The figure eights are all so wide that even people in the back of the boat can get in people’s way. It was good advice.
Anyway, when I have been out with a guide, I want them to fish if they feel like it. I want them to put me on fish, critique my technique, shoot the breeze, and answer my questions. But I still think of musky fishing as a team sport. I want the boat to have slime in it, even if I didn’t hook up. I don’t think of it as paying for a fish, or even paying for chances at a fish. Basically, I am paying an expert to be my fishing buddy for that outing. That way it can be a fun day on the water even if I don’t put one in the boat.
Obviously different people can have completely different expectations for a day with a guide. That was mine.
Cheers,
Bob |
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Posts: 183
| RobertK - 7/11/2020 12:30 PM
Anyway, when I have been out with a guide, I want them to fish if they feel like it. I want them to put me on fish, critique my technique, shoot the breeze, and answer my questions. But I still think of musky fishing as a team sport. I want the boat to have slime in it, even if I didn’t hook up. I don’t think of it as paying for a fish, or even paying for chances at a fish. Basically, I am paying an expert to be my fishing buddy for that outing. That way it can be a fun day on the water even if I don’t put one in the boat.
Obviously different people can have completely different expectations for a day with a guide. That was mine.
Cheers,
Bob
I'm all about somebody in the boat catching one if its my dad or friends, but not really somebody im paying. I probably wouldnt do a guided trip by myself though. The problem is how well can they critique your technique and such if they are also focused on fishing themselves. The one trip Ive done the guide was 90% vertical jigging in the back which i was totally fine with since thats easy to be aware of everything else thats going on. |
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Posts: 32886
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | 'A good guide doesn't need to fish to figure out the pattern... . . Period.'
I guided for 20 years. This depends on the skill set of the clients. Some (in fact, most) of my clients re-hired me over the years, and developed the skills needed to know when and where to cast and how to work the techniques necessary for that day and the conditions, so unless I was expected to, I didn't fish.
Patterns change by the minute, day, and week many times requiring some checking to confirm or deny. Some days something as simple as a slight wind change from SW to S would cause me to have everyone wind up, change lures, and move to another area trying for a specific fish or area I knew to hold fish.
Explaining to clients how to work a bait, cast (even learn how to cast so they can get the lure going fast enough), retrieve at the correct speed and lay down a grid of casts over a targeted area most times didn't work well. Showing them did. Once the water was getting covered properly I'd sit down and control the boat if that was the client's preference. I controlled the boat from the bow, and intentionally left the water I expected to hold a fish to the clients. I don't remember ever figure 8ing a fish a client brought to the boat, though. |
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Posts: 267
| Howdy,
If the client wants the guide to fish, great, problem solved and the customer is always right. But if the customer does not want that, there is no legitimate basis for the guide to fish. The argument that they need their bait in the water to learn the pattern is hogwash, especially when they are on the water everyday.
Even if true, who reels in the fish once it's hooked? If the guide hands off the rod to one of the paying clients that's at least redeemable, even desirable. But if the paying client has to then net the guides fish, thats a farce. Again, if you're fine with that, rock on its your charter for the day. In reality, however, a lot of people are not fine with that but are too polite and too conflict averse to say anything.
In the end, its your money so do what makes you happy. But without question, the best guides on the water focus on their client catching fish 100% of the time and give the client repeated opportunities for that to happen, period. Giving the client first crack at the fish, and then landing it yourself, is bush league in my opinion.
Take care,
Ruddiger
Edited by Ruddiger 7/12/2020 7:53 AM
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Posts: 33
| My regular guide is similar. Prefers to run the boat and watch clients very closely. With me, he knows he’s welcome to fish at any time.
But his approach works. I have seen him get my son and several others with less experience bit and convert fish they would have been very unlikely to land on their own. He’s right on top of it, watching retrieves, subtle wakes, low follows, figure eight triggers, etc. to maximize their chances. |
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Posts: 613
Location: Michigan | I think a lot depends on how many clients there are and how skilled those clients are as well. If it's just me then I would definitely want the guide to fish and try different baits, colors, etc. If there are two or three clients then I could see the guide not fishing. Personally, I always like having the guide fish as it's just another bait in the water and more information to figure out what is happening that day. |
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