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| News brief this morning that GM will be releasing a new, electric Hummer in late spring, early summer. The specs are insane: 1,000 HP, 11,500 lbs of torque. (Not a typo, over eleven thousand pounds of torque) Should be able to pull the heaviest glass boat without a lot of problems. The speculation is that it will have a 250 HP motor at each wheel and that the crazy torque number is based on having 4 electric motors. My guess is that range will be somewhat limited. (0 to 60 time is given at 3 seconds)
Not going to be in my price range but when the early adapters on this board buy one, please post a review for the rest of us. |
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Posts: 309
| Sure sounds cool, but I doubt it'll have the payload to handle much more than a fishing boat. |
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Posts: 61
| https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/gmc-hummer-ev-torque/ |
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Location: Roscoe IL | all that power, you might be able to tow a boat a couple hundred miles. Ill stick to the new Duramax diesels. there isnt a boat id ever want that i cant pull with it. |
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| My hope is that this concept will lead to practical vehicles that both efficient and powerful. Locomotives use electric motors to drive their wheels and they are by far the most efficient land transport vehicles.
And yes, the way the torque was measured is not the standard method but then, it is not a standard vehicle. At some point in the near future, I am sure there will be an agreed upon method for equating torque for this type of system with a traditional internal combustion engine. |
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Posts: 61
| I agree. In the article where it's mentioned about the video that explains very thoroughly the whole concept, the guy clearly states that combustion engines, once battery technology progresses; longer life and less weight, are going to become obsolete. I don't know if you guys are aware of the British automotive show called Top Gear but there is an older episode with Jay Leno, who elegantly predicts that combustion engines are going to be like horses, which were mainly used for transport a century ago, are going to become a form of enjoyment, which I think most will agree that only combustion engines can deliver, and electric/hydrogen cars are going to be the mainstream of transport. Sorry for the grammar. |
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Posts: 483
| check out rivian electric pickup and suv , american made 200hp per wheel 400 miles on battery ! i would buy one if i had the money . available spring 2020 i think . |
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Posts: 61
| I'm gonna apologize ahead of the crap storm this massage will probably create. American made equals quality is long gone. I've worked in 4 manufacturing CNC plants from automotive to medical and only one had rigorous restrictions for tolerances of parts we made. It was an automotive plant where scrap, meaning any dimension out of tolerance, was supposed to be scraped. 3 others including the one I currently work for is by let it by and see what happens rule, which pains me a lot because I'm trying to make every part I make to best standards but most of the times it's not possible due to quality of material, tools that are being used, engineering, or by human error which happens even to most seasoned machinists. Unfortunately quality control started by ,Mr. Deming contradicts the name itself: quality. Lean production, Six Sigma and such others are only to cut cost which makes quality unachievable. Whoever worked in such an environment probably noticed that
whether financial crisis or not, parking lots are still occupied by the same German(notice not located in North America) six figure vehicles. In my opinion bad stock market means that it's time to lower wages of people who actually do the work and for corporate to stack up more of 90% of capital. |
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| szczochu13 - 2/1/2020 7:20 AM
I'm gonna apologize ahead of the crap storm this massage will probably create. American made equals quality is long gone. I've worked in 4 manufacturing CNC plants from automotive to medical and only one had rigorous restrictions for tolerances of parts we made. It was an automotive plant where scrap, meaning any dimension out of tolerance, was supposed to be scraped. 3 others including the one I currently work for is by let it by and see what happens rule, which pains me a lot because I'm trying to make every part I make to best standards but most of the times it's not possible due to quality of material, tools that are being used, engineering, or by human error which happens even to most seasoned machinists. Unfortunately quality control started by ,Mr. Deming contradicts the name itself: quality. Lean production, Six Sigma and such others are only to cut cost which makes quality unachievable. Whoever worked in such an environment probably noticed that
whether financial crisis or not, parking lots are still occupied by the same German(notice not located in North America) six figure vehicles. In my opinion bad stock market means that it's time to lower wages of people who actually do the work and for corporate to stack up more of 90% of capital.
I wonder if it isn't a chicken and the egg situation. American consumers say they want quality but will almost always choose price over quality. IKEA has become a huge retailer by recognizing that. My son and his wife wanted a "sofa height" drop leaf table for their small apartment. They found one at IKEA but my son didn't like the quality of it, so asked if I would build one for them. I got the dimensions, went to a hardwood mill that sells wholesale and retail, as well as milling and kiln drying Wisconsin grown hardwoods. The 8/4 and 6/4 red oak, along with the quality brass drop leaf and gate leg hinges cost almost as much as the finished table at IKEA. Had it been built in an American factory instead of a retired guy's wood shop, probably would have had to cost well over twice what that table cost at IKEA. I am confident that barring a natural disaster they will be able to pass it on to their children, but who really wants that kind of stuff today? |
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Posts: 2018
| The amount of change you’re going to see in the next 10 years concerning electric autonomous vehicles is going to be mind blowing, if you don’t think a lot can change in 10 years you haven’t studied history. |
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| IAJustin - 2/1/2020 9:40 AM
The amount of change you’re going to see in the next 10 years concerning electric autonomous vehicles is going to be mind blowing, if you don’t think a lot can change in 10 years you haven’t studied history.
Agreed. The wave theory of change has been around for awhile but it does a good job of explaining the current pace of change. |
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Location: SE MI | IAJustin - 2/1/2020 10:40 AM
The amount of change you’re going to see in the next 10 years concerning electric autonomous vehicles is going to be mind blowing, if you don’t think a lot can change in 10 years you haven’t studied history.
10yrs ago, even longer gas was supposed to be $7-8 a gallon by now all the "experts" said it would and we are all still waiting and I've studied history..... |
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| bpsully - 2/2/2020 8:16 AM
IAJustin - 2/1/2020 10:40 AM
The amount of change you’re going to see in the next 10 years concerning electric autonomous vehicles is going to be mind blowing, if you don’t think a lot can change in 10 years you haven’t studied history.
10yrs ago, even longer gas was supposed to be $7-8 a gallon by now all the "experts" said it would and we are all still waiting and I've studied history.....
Interesting point. One thing with oil, the only entities that truly know the scope of reserves are the petroleum producers. I wonder if they were deliberately under estimating the reserves back then. The other change of course is the efficiency of modern gas engines. Read where the new C8 Corvette, with well over 400hp and 400 lbs of torque is rated at 27 mpg highway. |
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Location: Sawyer County, WI | North of 8 - 2/1/2020 7:56 AM
szczochu13 - 2/1/2020 7:20 AM
I'm gonna apologize ahead of the crap storm this massage will probably create. American made equals quality is long gone. I've worked in 4 manufacturing CNC plants from automotive to medical and only one had rigorous restrictions for tolerances of parts we made. It was an automotive plant where scrap, meaning any dimension out of tolerance, was supposed to be scraped. 3 others including the one I currently work for is by let it by and see what happens rule, which pains me a lot because I'm trying to make every part I make to best standards but most of the times it's not possible due to quality of material, tools that are being used, engineering, or by human error which happens even to most seasoned machinists. Unfortunately quality control started by ,Mr. Deming contradicts the name itself: quality. Lean production, Six Sigma and such others are only to cut cost which makes quality unachievable. Whoever worked in such an environment probably noticed that
whether financial crisis or not, parking lots are still occupied by the same German(notice not located in North America) six figure vehicles. In my opinion bad stock market means that it's time to lower wages of people who actually do the work and for corporate to stack up more of 90% of capital.
I wonder if it isn't a chicken and the egg situation. American consumers say they want quality but will almost always choose price over quality. IKEA has become a huge retailer by recognizing that. My son and his wife wanted a "sofa height" drop leaf table for their small apartment. They found one at IKEA but my son didn't like the quality of it, so asked if I would build one for them. I got the dimensions, went to a hardwood mill that sells wholesale and retail, as well as milling and kiln drying Wisconsin grown hardwoods. The 8/4 and 6/4 red oak, along with the quality brass drop leaf and gate leg hinges cost almost as much as the finished table at IKEA. Had it been built in an American factory instead of a retired guy's wood shop, probably would have had to cost well over twice what that table cost at IKEA. I am confident that barring a natural disaster they will be able to pass it on to their children, but who really wants that kind of stuff today?
Who wants things like that table you made ? I do.
As my dear old Dad used to say, "Buy quality, cry once" |
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Posts: 2018
| bpsully - 2/2/2020 8:16 AM
IAJustin - 2/1/2020 10:40 AM
The amount of change you’re going to see in the next 10 years concerning electric autonomous vehicles is going to be mind blowing, if you don’t think a lot can change in 10 years you haven’t studied history.
10yrs ago, even longer gas was supposed to be $7-8 a gallon by now all the "experts" said it would and we are all still waiting and I've studied history.....
There was plenty of hay when the horse and buggy went away. Technology, (AI, microprocessors, etc) and company’s recently committing billions in plants and additional research, suggest times are a changing my friends...also already seeing several states only giving grants for electric vehicles such as buses..
Edited by IAJustin 2/2/2020 12:21 PM
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Posts: 88
Location: Des Plaines, IL | The science is in on this one: the best possible electric engine will outperform the best possible combustion engine 100% of the time. Fewer moving parts means less energy lost in those parts, not to mention fewer things to break. Honestly, it’s a bit disturbing that it’s taken this long to get there, but I think we are past the point of no return now. Companies like Chevron and Exxon have fought it hard, but now we will see who can adapt.
My next truck will be full electric, no doubt, and I am eagerly awaiting it. |
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Location: Roscoe IL | electric is great, until the increased demand raises to the cost of electricity. Electric isnt near as clean as people want to believe either, those batteries will be the next great toxic waste frontier. The actual carbon footprint is much larger than a diesel or gas vehicle. |
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Posts: 88
Location: Des Plaines, IL | Please cite the evidence on the carbon footprint. Also, knowing that there is still a long way to go with battery technology, there's a lot more potential there. How much room is left to innovate on the combustion engine? |
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Posts: 267
| And then what about that big 250-300 hp outboard? We need electric outboards to replace them too. And I also agree, if we go electric, it has to be charged with renewable, non-fossil fuel generated electricity, or we aren't any further ahead (if this whole climate thing is real). |
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Posts: 267
| Gas/diesel trucks will still be around in 10 years if these new electrics cost over $70,000 (Rivian) unless gas/diesel fuel costs skyrocket. Someone better come out with a vehicle that is competitive with gas/fuel vehicles or it will take more than 10 years IMO. |
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Posts: 492
Location: Northern Illinois | The claim that spent batteries will be the next great toxic waste is speculation with no way to disprove it. "Never assume you must be right simply because you can’t be proven wrong."
Edited by RLSea 2/4/2020 8:30 PM
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Location: Des Plaines, IL | Here's what I will say about the battery thing: I'm not saying I'm right, but I never said I was. When you make a statement with definitive wording like "will be," it implies that it is a certainty.
If, instead, we approached the conversation saying "I'm concerned about battery technology and whether or not they will be recyclable. What if they just end up being dumped into a landfill. That has the potential to increase an already existing problem."
My concern has always been the willingness to use language in a way that makes it seem like it's a fact, like reading an op ed piece one likes and referencing it as if science has determined it so. |
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| dbach17 - 2/5/2020 12:54 PM
Here's what I will say about the battery thing: I'm not saying I'm right, but I never said I was. When you make a statement with definitive wording like "will be," it implies that it is a certainty.
If, instead, we approached the conversation saying "I'm concerned about battery technology and whether or not they will be recyclable. What if they just end up being dumped into a landfill. That has the potential to increase an already existing problem."
My concern has always been the willingness to use language in a way that makes it seem like it's a fact, like reading an op ed piece one likes and referencing it as if science has determined it so.
Whether the batteries can be recycled is a legitimate concern. Lead acid batteries have been recycled for decades but batteries of the future need to be too. On the plus side, we would not have the issue of what to do with all the used motor oil like we do now. |
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Location: Ashland WI | North of 8 - 2/5/2020 1:09 PM
dbach17 - 2/5/2020 12:54 PM
Here's what I will say about the battery thing: I'm not saying I'm right, but I never said I was. When you make a statement with definitive wording like "will be," it implies that it is a certainty.
If, instead, we approached the conversation saying "I'm concerned about battery technology and whether or not they will be recyclable. What if they just end up being dumped into a landfill. That has the potential to increase an already existing problem."
My concern has always been the willingness to use language in a way that makes it seem like it's a fact, like reading an op ed piece one likes and referencing it as if science has determined it so.
Whether the batteries can be recycled is a legitimate concern. Lead acid batteries have been recycled for decades but batteries of the future need to be too. On the plus side, we would not have the issue of what to do with all the used motor oil like we do now.
A lot of the local shops around here burn there waste oil for heat. Modified fuel oil burner. |
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| 14ledo81 - 2/5/2020 1:57 PM
North of 8 - 2/5/2020 1:09 PM
dbach17 - 2/5/2020 12:54 PM
Here's what I will say about the battery thing: I'm not saying I'm right, but I never said I was. When you make a statement with definitive wording like "will be," it implies that it is a certainty.
If, instead, we approached the conversation saying "I'm concerned about battery technology and whether or not they will be recyclable. What if they just end up being dumped into a landfill. That has the potential to increase an already existing problem."
My concern has always been the willingness to use language in a way that makes it seem like it's a fact, like reading an op ed piece one likes and referencing it as if science has determined it so.
Whether the batteries can be recycled is a legitimate concern. Lead acid batteries have been recycled for decades but batteries of the future need to be too. On the plus side, we would not have the issue of what to do with all the used motor oil like we do now.
A lot of the local shops around here burn there waste oil for heat. Modified fuel oil burner.
Sure, they do in the Rhinelander area as well but that puts some nasty stuff into the air and it is not a practical solution for areas like southern California, where they have millions of autos and polluted air. Probably not a big issue in the Northwoods, but it is where the bulk of the cars are. |
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Posts: 833
| And here I was hoping this thread would contain insights into tow vehicles since I'm in the market this year. SIGH... |
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Posts: 791
Location: Delavan, WI | I work as an auto mechanic, been doing it for about 28 years and have seen a lot of changes, fuel injection was not the standard when I first got into the business a lot of cars on the road were still carbureted. Now days you don't see too many of those unless it's a classic car or somehow survived. Area I work in is somewhat low income and a lot of the cars I work on now are 15-20 years old, these are rusty vehicles that are worth $1200-$2000 max but yet people will sometimes put more $ into repairing these vehicles than what they are worth! Why you may ask, it's because they can't afford a new vehicle let alone buy a 70 K electric car/ truck. I don't deny changes are coming but it is my opinion that 10 yrs from now there still will be more gas cars than electric cars on the road. |
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| muskymartin67 - 2/6/2020 6:45 AM
I work as an auto mechanic, been doing it for about 28 years and have seen a lot of changes, fuel injection was not the standard when I first got into the business a lot of cars on the road were still carbureted. Now days you don't see too many of those unless it's a classic car or somehow survived. Area I work in is somewhat low income and a lot of the cars I work on now are 15-20 years old, these are rusty vehicles that are worth $1200-$2000 max but yet people will sometimes put more $ into repairing these vehicles than what they are worth! Why you may ask, it's because they can't afford a new vehicle let alone buy a 70 K electric car/ truck. I don't deny changes are coming but it is my opinion that 10 yrs from now there still will be more gas cars than electric cars on the road.
Looking at the price of new vehicles, it makes sense a lot of times to repair rather than replace, even if you can afford a new one. I have a nine year old Yukon that I bought new. Still runs well, has not needed a lot of repairs and while it is nice to have a new vehicle, from a straight up financial stand point, spending a few grand to keep it on the road another 3 or 4 years is a better deal. Driving a new one off the lot is going to cost me 3 to 5 grand in depreciation. When Click and Clack were still on radio, they made that point a number of times. |
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | ' When Click and Clack were still on radio, they made that point a number of times.'
I really enjoyed that show. |
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Posts: 762
| Can someone explain to me how well these electric(battery)vehicles perform in extremely cold weather climates? A battery is a battery, correct? Kdawg |
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| sworrall - 2/6/2020 9:59 AM
' When Click and Clack were still on radio, they made that point a number of times.'
I really enjoyed that show.
One of my all time favorites, kids even bought me a CD of some of their best shows. Listening to them, you wouldn't know they were both M.I.T. graduates and one even had a doctorate. |
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Posts: 267
| Cold weather definitely shortens battery charge. Towing also significantly shortens charge. |
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Posts: 1249
Location: Walker, MN | Then we can charge them with solar when we're on the lake! "Sorry we can't go in yet honey, I don't think the rig is charged-up yet." |
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| I would guess that they have some sort of fix for the cold weather issue, even if not perfect. The issue would be when the vehicle is sitting and if that is the case, most likely they are plugged in to charge. My stand by natural gas generator has a small lead acid battery for starting. It is wrapped with a thermostat controlled "blanket" that keeps it warm enough to function well. (There is a 110 circuit to the generator) Something on a larger scale would probably work with an electric vehicle, just enough heat to keep them functioning and once on the road braking regeneration will help them heat back up. |
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Location: 31 | Sounds to me like this thread should be titled ultimate "future" tow vehicle. I don't do much local fishing, so my ultimate tow vehicle will remain something I can sleep in. |
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Posts: 61
| Took Uber once in Tesla model 3 last winter and the guy said that when the temperature drops sub zero F he gets half the distance he normally is able to achieve. Like stated before the batteries are the weak link in the whole electric concept but we'll see how it goes.
Edited by szczochu13 2/6/2020 9:14 PM
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Posts: 267
| https://insideevs.com/news/366514/will-towing-recover-range-anxiety/
This test showed battery depleted 3X as fast while towing. |
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Posts: 122
Location: Roscoe IL | dbach17 - 2/4/2020 8:21 AM
Please cite the evidence on the carbon footprint. Also, knowing that there is still a long way to go with battery technology, there's a lot more potential there. How much room is left to innovate on the combustion engine?
please tell me how using diesel and gas mining equipment, to strip and open pit mine lithium (completely destroys the environment in the areas its mined) then building the batteries, then charging the batteries, then, in many cases use MORE fossil fuels to charge those batteries, all while addiing a larger strain on a ageing grid, could possible be LESS of a carbon footprint than a diesel or gas engine. you're skipping an entire step in the equation. Just how i see it, and how many of the engineers that ive worked with in the power generation business see it as well. |
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Location: Northern Illinois | It is a complex question because the comparative metrics are complex. Yes, fossil fuels are used in some, but not all, power generation. Renewable electricity is increasing and the cost has dropped significantly in the last 12 years. But the main advantage of electric vehicles is efficiency. Only about 15% of the energy consumed is converted to moving a gas powered vehicle and 20% for a diesel powered vehicle. The rest is lost to heat and idling. Electric vehicles convert about 80% to moving the vehicle. As for the carbon footprint of each, it is debatable. I don't have an EV and I love my Duramax for towing. I just think that internal combustion engines are reaching their limit of efficiency. |
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Location: Des Plaines, IL | I like what RLSea contributed above. There is no doubt that the cost of the current creation of lithium batteries is substantial. But the cost of combustion engines is also substantial, and as RLSea pointed out and I agree, we are likely much closer to the limits on the combustion engine than we are when it comes to electric vehicles. Lithium is the primary battery material right now, but is that going to be the case in 20 years? My guess is no.
You are correct, we aren't there yet, but I want us to get there. If only we would have started this journey 30 years ago, maybe we'd be a lot closer today. |
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| Dunno about all the new stuff. My recent truck has the same motor as the previous, the bigger Ford 6 Ecoboost. With the previous truck I towed my packed-for-camping bed and a heavy Yar Craft 209 30,000 miles without a hiccup. Highway mileage was in the upper teens, almost 20. Lots of power. First truck was a 2014, new truck is a 2018. I miss a cool thing I had installed on the 2014 - A trucker's Garmin unit with a dedicated camera I had installed at the top of the cap. That trick allowed me to switch from the map function to the camera looking out over that boat while running down the road. Also had set of Rigid lights mounted on the rear bumper with a switch on the dash to fire up the landing when dropping and pulling the boat at remote landings in the dark. That was a sweet setup. |
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Location: Duluth | https://jalopnik.com/electric-cars-are-better-for-the-environment-th... |
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| The bottom line is they are not there yet. Until you can jump in and drive 600 miles without a charge they aren't serious players in that market yet. For someone commuting to work and back daily electric is viable but range just isn't there for anything other than daily driving and short highway trips.
But I bought some Tesla stock anyways....
Edited by bturg 2/13/2020 11:39 AM
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| The bottom line is, they better be affordable or few people will be able to buy them. |
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Location: 31 | Even if I forgot about the exorbitant price for a second, I would still be super reluctant with this EV after factoring in my cold weather/long-distance towing considerations. So, I don't see it being anything close to my ultimate tow vehicle… it's super cool though! I’m also not so sure that ICE’s have already “almost reached” their maximum fuel efficiency potential either, especially when I consider the “crazy excessive” horsepower advances that they have been able to achieve recently. Unfortunately, size and horsepower is still what's driving the US market, and if manufacturers can increase horsepower like that, they might also be able to greatly increase MPG if that's what’s needed to compete in the future. ICE’s are actually very clean, and as long as fuel remains inexpensive, I don't see this dynamic changing anytime soon… especially since the US is energy self-sufficient+ now. EV’s do make a lot of sense for short distances though, or even medium distances with charging stations at both ends. However, I would never be so narrow-minded as to think that I'm somehow doing my part to save the world just by driving one when we still have major polluters like China and India, even if the US went completely green, that's not going to solve the perceived problem. In the meantime though perhaps the next hurdle for EV’s might be trying to compete with almost 100 MPG ICE’s, that's certainly a possibility, especially if the cost of fuel were to go up (or be taxed) exponentially. However, they might already have that segment of the market pretty well covered with so many choices of 50+ MPG ICE’s already. Only time will tell...
Edited by Jerry Newman 2/14/2020 12:51 PM
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Posts: 320
| My idea of the ultimate tow vehicle:
1. Tows in a safe and effective manner
2. Dependable
3. Paid for |
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Ultimate Tow Vehicle?