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Posts: 512
| morning all, looking at purchasing a boat and it will come with surge brakes. ive never had a trailer with brakes, and I'm reading a lot of horror stories about problems going through mountains with them, overheating and such.
just wondered about your experiences, and if it would be hard to switch to electric or just turn em off when going through the mountains?
thanks,
Dave |
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Posts: 3508
Location: Elk River, Minnesota | Hiya,
Surge brakes will activate when you are going downhill, given the trailer is pushing against your tow vehicle...that would be the issue people would run into.
I know you can lock them out for going in reverse using a manual lock out, but many trailers have that as an automatic feature built into the electrical system/actuator for when you are in reverse...the lock will engage so the brakes do not engage if you were backing up a hill...
I would think there would be a way to get it done to lock the brakes out of use somehow... I'll do a little research to see what I can find. I could see your main thought here...that pull to florida... 
Steve
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Posts: 512
| VMS - 4/4/2019 8:56 AM
Hiya,
Surge brakes will activate when you are going downhill, given the trailer is pushing against your tow vehicle...that would be the issue people would run into.
I know you can lock them out for going in reverse using a manual lock out, but many trailers have that as an automatic feature built into the electrical system/actuator for when you are in reverse...the lock will engage so the brakes do not engage if you were backing up a hill...
I would think there would be a way to get it done to lock the brakes out of use somehow... I'll do a little research to see what I can find. I could see your main thought here...that pull to florida...
Steve
ha yep, that's it exactly Steve..
ill send ya the boat I'm looking at in a few..
thanks man.. |
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Location: Eastern Ontario | Is there no option for electric brakes on the trailer. I've had no issues with surge brakes on some pretty big hills but never towed in the mountains. The new trailers i've been looking at all come with electric brakes. |
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Posts: 512
| horsehunter - 4/4/2019 9:16 AM
Is there no option for electric brakes on the trailer. I've had no issues with surge brakes on some pretty big hills but never towed in the mountains. The new trailers i've been looking at all come with electric brakes.
well that's a thought I had, was looking to switch from surge to electric
might go that route if its doable, and not terribly expensive
just always thought that could be an issue launching and such but not sure driving in a rainstorm would be any wetter than launching. |
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Location: 31 | There will be a pin you can insert in the trailer tongue that will prevent the surge brakes from activating, I use it all the time to move my boat with my skid loader.
I also tow with a large vehicle and really don't need trailer brakes, with my old boat I towed most of the time with the surge brakes completely disengaged.
Edited by Jerry Newman 4/4/2019 3:08 PM
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Posts: 512
| Jerry Newman - 4/4/2019 9:38 AM
Not if you know this or it's even going to matter to you but there will be a pin you can insert in the trailer tongue that will prevent the surge brakes from activating, I use it all the time to move my boat with my skid loader.
I also tow with a large vehicle and really don't need trailer brakes, with my old boat I towed most of the time with the surge brakes disengaged.
I thought I saw that, but do all actuators or surge brake systems have this option?? |
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Posts: 3508
Location: Elk River, Minnesota | Hiya,
I believe they might.
You can make the change over to electric brakes but I believe unless you go to electric over hydraulic, you would need to replace your whole brake system with drums. Then the brakes are controlled by the brake actuator on your truck and you can adjust the amount of braking the trailer does through the actuator.
For electric over hydraulic, you would need to install an actuator on the trailer that when you press the brake it sends a signal to an actuator that controls the trailer brakes via hydraulic pressure. Not sure where you would mount it, but this would be the ideal system if your trailer would come with hydraulic surge brakes. you'd keep them on, and plumb the trailer lines to the actuator, which is then hooked to your brake system on the truck.
Steve |
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Posts: 512
| hmm, food for thought
hopefully I can just lock them out while going through the mountains
if not, I may look into this option..
thanks Steve |
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Location: Eastern Ontario | I wasn't suggesting switching surge to electric but would suggest ordering the trailer with electric brakes. |
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Posts: 93
| VMS - 4/4/2019 8:56 AM
I would think there would be a way to get it done to lock the brakes out of use somehow... I'll do a little research to see what I can find.
Do you own surge brakes on your trailer such that you have firsthand experience?
Asking for a friend.
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Location: 31 | Dave T. - 4/4/2019 9:42 AM
Jerry Newman - 4/4/2019 9:38 AM
There will be a pin you can insert in the trailer tongue that will prevent the surge brakes from activating, I use it all the time to move my boat with my skid loader.
I also tow with a large vehicle and really don't need trailer brakes, with my old boat I towed most of the time with the surge brakes completely disengaged.
I thought I saw that, but do all actuators or surge brake systems have this option??
Not 100% sure on this but I have not seen one without that option. I've had 2 Ranger trailers and they both have had it. |
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Posts: 512
| horsehunter - 4/4/2019 2:24 PM
I wasn't suggesting switching surge to electric but would suggest ordering the trailer with electric brakes.
its a used boat, it has surge on the trailer |
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Posts: 229
| Like was mentioned above, mine has a hole that can be locked out with a pin or a large bolt and nut. When I was having some master cylinder issues I locked my brakes out completely for a couple months. |
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Posts: 1209
| I would run them as they are, if you come across a 10 mile decent stop after 5 and pour a bottle of water on each wheel. I wouldn't want to not have breaks encase I need them. So your saying the boat pushing down hill applies the breaks, you are right but as soon as the breaks grab, it releases most of the pressure and just ever so lightly drags along. Add in wheels roll resistance and wind resistance it's minimal when they are working correctly.
A old trailer that may have an issue as simple as air in one line over working the other side will definitely get hot. Just run itthe wind flowing past the wheels will cool a lot.
My experience with performance motorcycles and spots cars is they can glow orange and it won't hurt much al least not in 5 minutes |
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Posts: 512
| true, but I'm not worried about the brakes getting hot, I'm worried about the hubs/bearings/grease getting hot and ruining the seals and such
then I have a huge fail up in the mountains which wouldn't be fun at all! |
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Posts: 16632
Location: The desert | Should have a lock out ability. I don’t think I’ve seen any that don’t. You probably already know this but your engine should do most of the braking coming down the mountains. Shift down gears rather than using your brakes. You can always smell the tourist vehicles coming down the mountains! |
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Posts: 512
| yep yep, hoping for this
and yes, I use engine for jeep braking, but the boat doesn't know this!
and on another issue, my jeep has a terrible downshift between 6th and 5th, terrible clunk on occasion! |
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Posts: 3508
Location: Elk River, Minnesota | undersized - 4/4/2019 2:27 PM
VMS - 4/4/2019 8:56 AM
I would think there would be a way to get it done to lock the brakes out of use somehow... I'll do a little research to see what I can find.
Do you own surge brakes on your trailer such that you have firsthand experience?
Asking for a friend.
Nice try...
And yes... since I know you are really the one asking...
installed them myself but never had to consider the situation DaveT is needing to. Never explored it and cannot recall from when I had that trailer. The trailer I have now does not have them...yet. If I do t have an answer to someone’s question, I’ll admit it too, but I certainly won’t stop there... I’ll go find out the answer....and if they want help with something and they are local, I’ll give them a hand with my full name... you?
Steve
Edited by VMS 4/5/2019 8:23 AM
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Location: Eastern Ontario | Over the years Steve has helped countless people with his knowledge of props, gear ratios, and algebra thanks Steve. |
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Posts: 512
| VMS - 4/5/2019 8:14 AM
undersized - 4/4/2019 2:27 PM
VMS - 4/4/2019 8:56 AM
I would think there would be a way to get it done to lock the brakes out of use somehow... I'll do a little research to see what I can find.
Do you own surge brakes on your trailer such that you have firsthand experience?
Asking for a friend.
Nice try...
And yes... since I know you are really the one asking...
installed them myself but never had to consider the situation DaveT is needing to. Never explored it and cannot recall from when I had that trailer. The trailer I have now does not have them...yet. If I do t have an answer to someone’s question, I’ll admit it too, but I certainly won’t stop there... I’ll go find out the answer....and if they want help with something and they are local, I’ll give them a hand with my full name... you?
Steve
get him Steve! :p |
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Location: 31 | Yeah, be careful undersized... Steve's takes lessons on debate from Ben Shapiro
Edited by Jerry Newman 4/5/2019 9:10 AM
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Posts: 3508
Location: Elk River, Minnesota | Awww man!!!
My secret is out!!  |
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Posts: 483
| i recently got a new to me trailer with surge brakes and learned a lot since i work on it myself and my system is hydraulic without electric backup solenoid (1997 drums) i do not believe the brake lock shim would stay in place on my model (A60)and pretty shure the solenoid is used only on disk brakes system but if its solenoid type the back-up lights turn it on so easy tu install a switch to actuate it . |
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Posts: 1209
| So I pulled over some "big" hills quite possibly steeper than an actual mountain downhill, and I watched my trailer couple/surge brake actuator and it is so minuscule the amount it compresses. (My truck will let me look at the backup camera while driving and it is very noticeable on my trailer). Like I think I said, a properly functioning trailer this shouldn't be an issue, and my truck was 100% at idle going down, the rolling resistance and wind resistance is enough drag without the brakes |
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Location: 31 | danlaboucane - 4/6/2019 9:50 AM
i recently got a new to me trailer with surge brakes and learned a lot since i work on it myself and my system is hydraulic without electric backup solenoid (1997 drums) i do not believe the brake lock shim would stay in place on my model (A60)and pretty shure the solenoid is used only on disk brakes system but if its solenoid type the back-up lights turn it on so easy tu install a switch to actuate it .
I was moving my boat around and thought I'd pass this on... it stays in place with a strong magnet.
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trailer (2).jpg (15KB - 478 downloads)
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Posts: 1516
| Jerry, where did you find that magnet lockout? |
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Posts: 483
| good idea jerry , tanks |
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Location: 31 | https://www.ebay.com/itm/Lock-Out-Key-for-UFP-Surge-Brake-Trailer-Ma...
https://www.ebay.com/itm/MAGNETIC-LOCK-OUT-KEY-KEY-FOR-ATWOOD-TYPE-S...
Edited by Jerry Newman 4/24/2019 6:04 PM
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Posts: 512
| Jerry Newman - 4/24/2019 11:56 AM
danlaboucane - 4/6/2019 9:50 AM
i recently got a new to me trailer with surge brakes and learned a lot since i work on it myself and my system is hydraulic without electric backup solenoid (1997 drums) i do not believe the brake lock shim would stay in place on my model (A60)and pretty shure the solenoid is used only on disk brakes system but if its solenoid type the back-up lights turn it on so easy tu install a switch to actuate it .
I was moving my boat around and thought I'd pass this on... it stays in place with a strong magnet.
thanks, I found this as well, hopefully it stays on going down the highway if I try it! |
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Location: Athens, Ohio | Dude, I would NOT engage the brake lockout while driving forward under ANY conditions. Nice that the magnet will keep it right there, but these lockout devices are designed and intended to be used in parking and dealer lots and for short back up situations. You may jeopardize your insurance if there was ever a problem and it wasn't being used according to mfg. requirements. m |
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Location: 31 | For years I pulled a 621 with the trailer brakes locked out (Ranger 621s and 620s are actually pretty close in weight), after testing I couldn’t tell much difference. Never worried about insurance coverage...
Just be smart and allow extra distance depending on if you have the brakes locked out or not.
Edited by Jerry Newman 4/29/2019 3:15 PM
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Location: Athens, Ohio | Seems like 'being smart' would be having the brakes engaged and properly adjusted. If there was little difference they needed fixed so you don't risk not only your safety but the safety of the drivers around you. m |
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| Jerry Newman - 4/29/2019 10:07 AM
For years I pulled a 621 with the trailer brakes locked out (Ranger 621s and 620s are actually pretty close in weight), after testing I couldn’t tell much difference. Never worried about insurance coverage...
Just be smart and allow extra distance depending on if you have the brakes locked out or not.
Jerry
I usually agree with things you say but this is some really really bad advice. This is extremely dangerous. The brakes on the tow vehicle can easily be overheated and become useless. I have experienced the overheated brake fade on a tow vehicle before because of no trailer brakes and its not good. Sometimes there is no time. Please be safe and make sure your trailer brakes are in working order. Your life and others depend on it. |
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Posts: 3508
Location: Elk River, Minnesota | I think in DaveT's situation, a change-over to electric brakes would be an ideal solution.
On today's trailers that are surge brakes, they will all most likely be disk brakes. So...the axle will most likely be a 3500 lb axle with the larger and smaller bearing diameters a touch different. (1-3/8" and 1-1/16" I believe).
With that stated, the change-over to electric is actually quite straight forward. It will require drum brakes which will bolt directly to the mounting flange on the axle itself, then the drum is packed and attached like normal bearings and hubs.
If one gets the self adjusting brakes, it is then a matter of running wires to the 7 pin connector at the tongue, connect all wiring to the correct brakes, and so long as the truck has an electric brake actuator, he'd be golden.
I'm guessing, he'd be close to $300 with the wiring...
https://www.amazon.com/Southwest-Wheel-Trailer-Adjusting-Electric/dp...
If only my axle was a 3500 rather than 4200, I'd have this done already as well..
For me to do it, I'd need a custom built hub as I have been unable to find a 4200 lb drum without going to a larger tire and 6-bolt pattern...
Steve |
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| VMS - 4/30/2019 9:18 AM
I think in DaveT's situation, a change-over to electric brakes would be an ideal solution.
On today's trailers that are surge brakes, they will all most likely be disk brakes. So...the axle will most likely be a 3500 lb axle with the larger and smaller bearing diameters a touch different. (1-3/8" and 1-1/16" I believe ).
With that stated, the change-over to electric is actually quite straight forward. It will require drum brakes which will bolt directly to the mounting flange on the axle itself, then the drum is packed and attached like normal bearings and hubs.
If one gets the self adjusting brakes, it is then a matter of running wires to the 7 pin connector at the tongue, connect all wiring to the correct brakes, and so long as the truck has an electric brake actuator, he'd be golden.
I'm guessing, he'd be close to $300 with the wiring...
https://www.amazon.com/Southwest-Wheel-Trailer-Adjusting-Electric/dp...
If only my axle was a 3500 rather than 4200, I'd have this done already as well..
For me to do it, I'd need a custom built hub as I have been unable to find a 4200 lb drum without going to a larger tire and 6-bolt pattern...
Steve
He could also covert his current system to EOH, (electric over hydraulic), which means an electric actuator change and battery breakaway cable addition. |
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Posts: 3508
Location: Elk River, Minnesota | Yep...I can do that...at the expense of a $700 actuator...
that's more than I'd like to spend... plus...it would still require new disk hubs and calipers as well. That adds another $350 - $400 as well.. A bit steep for me to change to that.
With a welded swing away tongue as well, to install a surge actuator would require holes to be drilled and slots to be made, then the actuator itself. That's about $200 or so.
Nutshell... if they made a drum specifically for the rangertrail trailer that has 1-3/8" inner and outer bearings, it'd be done...
steve |
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Location: 31 | mikie - 4/30/2019 7:07 AM
Seems like 'being smart' would be having the brakes engaged and properly adjusted. If there was little difference they needed fixed so you don't risk not only your safety but the safety of the drivers around you. m
I agree with your comments for the most part, and I'm glad that we are having this conversation because it is important. However, I would also hope that no one would decide to lock out their trailer brakes based only on my post.
I don't want people to take what I'm about to say the wrong way because although I agree that putting safety first is the best policy, I see nothing wrong with locking out your trailer brakes if you are a competent driver and your tow vehicle can handle it. For instance; it's pretty easy to assume that when Wimuskyfisherman locked his trailer brakes out for a couple of months (page 1), his tow vehicle could handle it, and he simply drove more defensively.
Mikey, maybe you shouldn't be jumping to conclusions so quickly because I also suspected there was a problem with the brakes and I had them properly serviced, it turned out they had been working properly because I couldn't tell any difference. In your defense, I probably should have mentioned that I normally tow with an F-450 dually and that my boat trailer only had 2 wheel disc brakes.
A little off the subject but along the same lines… years ago I occasionally drove a large dump truck, in my estimation when that truck was fully loaded it probably needed almost twice the stopping distance as a car in a panic situation. The “not so smart” would routinely cut in front and hit the brakes to make a right turn… like that extra space was left there just for them. It’s almost the same mentality when it narrows from 4 to 2 lanes, it seems like everyone's in a hurry - desperate to get in front of a heavy truck (or one of us pulling our boat), oblivious to the danger behind them.
Moving on, I think it's kind of interesting that Ranger recently increased their dual axle boat trailers to include 4 wheel disc brakes after years of them only having 2 wheel disc brakes, and for some of us it wasn't that long ago that (gasp) many of our boat trailers didn’t even have brakes as 4amuskie mentioned. It's easy to grab the moral high ground with always saying safety first, but this also comes with some expense. Although it might be safer, I don't think we all need to add brakes to our older rigs just yet, maybe exercising a little more caution will also get the job done safely.
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Posts: 3508
Location: Elk River, Minnesota | Very well said Jerry....
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Posts: 512
| my boats have never had trailer brakes, granted they weren't ranger 620s, but they were 2400-3000 lbs packages
so I don't think it would be a huge issue to have the brakes locked out through the mountain passes because all the years ive gone through these mountains, ive never had trailer brakes!
but if I had a larger, heavier boat, I probably wouldn't do that...
Edited by Dave T. 5/1/2019 2:44 PM
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Posts: 4
| If the trailer has brakes, then it needs them... that should be pretty simple. I own a Lund 2025 Pro V and the trailer has surge brakes on both axles. I lost 1 brake line & all of the fluid... and lost 100% of the trailer brakes- I was almost not able to slow down and came within 12 inches of rear ending a car in front of me (yeah, I always give triple lengths in following distance so I am safe)
Think about this another way: You disable them, can't stop... and the plaintiff will OWN you. We live in a litigious society. You'll be sued for sure.
NJ law is any trailer GWVR over 4,000 with tandem axles and both axles require brakes. That's pretty simple.
I'd never ever consider finding a creative way with disabling them. I don't know what mountain's youre looking at but I'm often coming from NJ to the Adirondacks (up to the CA border) and want to know those brakes are there.
Edited by finmanpooze 5/16/2019 12:01 PM
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