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Posts: 3472
Location: Elk River, Minnesota | Hi Everyone...
The Gas thread is getting long, and with so much misinformation out there on fuel, I think it is time to start a new thread covering the main differences in fuels, and why we store our rigs the way we do...
THE MAIN DEBATE: Using 91 octane non-oxygenated fuel -vs- using 87 or higher octane E10 Oxygenated fuel.
Definition: E10 fuel is a fuel blend that contains 10% grain alcohol by volume (corn alcohol or Ethanol, which is where the E is coming from)
Definition: Non-oxygenated fuel is fuel that is NOT blended with any alcohol whatsoever.
BOTH fuels have a huge amount of additives in them which are harmful to an engine's gaskets, hoses, etc. They are not just gasoline and alcohol or gasoline alone. THESE ADDITIVES are what cause the break down of gaskets, hoses, components, etc. when UNSTABILIZED fuel is left in the engine regardless of type.
Benefit of non-oxygenated fuel at 91 octane: It will a) burn smoother in your engine because higher octane is a more stable fuel. b) a very slight increase in HP output due to the absence of alcohol. Alcohol does not produce as much energy output when burned vs pure gasoline.
Benefit of 87 or higher octane E10 fuel: It will a) burn just as well as fuel without alcohol. b) where available, you can run higher octane (MN for example has places that sell 92 octane E10 fuel) so you get the smoother running, more stable burning fuel if you choose. c). The Alcohol in the fuel blend will take care of any minute water molecules in the tank, allowing the fuel to burn cleanly in your engine and exit through exhaust. d). The alcohol in the fuel blend will keep components clean as alcohol is a solvent to fuel based contaminants.
Water intrusion into your system: Here is where the difference between the two types of fuels comes in.
Pure gasoline...the 91 octane that many believe is "THE" fuel to use CANNOT bond with any water, no matter how small the amount of water is. Water has a higher density than pure gasoline, so it settles to the bottom of your tank. This is where water intrusion is a really bad thing for your engine. The fuel pick-up in your tank will be at the lowest point of the tank...right where that water would settle and collect...thus being the first fluid to be forced into your combustion system. THAT is not a good thing.
E10 fuels, on the other hand have that 10% alcohol by volume in it. As many of you have seen in countless threads about E10 fuel....the alcohol will absorb (or better stated) bond with any water molecules up to a certain point of saturation. saturation happens when roughly .64 ounces of water per gallon of water is introduced to the fuel. Up to that point, the alcohol can, and will bond with the water and will essentially keep the water in "suspension" (so to speak) in the fuel itself which allows it to run through the fuel system and right out your exhaust without issue.
To get a better perspective of this... consider many of our boats today have a fuel tank that is around 20 gallons or higher. For a 20 gallon tank filled with E10 fuel, it will hold up to 12.8 ounces of water before the alcohol reaches it's saturation point and then separate from the gasoline itself. 12.8 ounces...that is essentially the size of a can of soda.
If you would...please process this information for a moment on a 20 gallon tank of fuel... up to 12.8 ounces of water at the bottom of your tank when using non-oxygenated fuel.... up to 12.8 ounces of water suspended in fuel that will cleanly pass through your engine with E10 fuel.
Storage of fuel:
Without a doubt, fuel that sits, regardless of 91 octane non-oxygenated or E10 ethanol fuel, both will begin to break down over time when not stabilized. They will do so at different rates. If either are left in your fuel system unstabilized, the break down of the fluids will leave deposits in every component of your fuel system from the tank to the fuel lines, engine components etc, and...due to the caustic nature of many of the additives, begin to break down gaskets, fuel lines, etc. This leads to leaks, clogged ports, and an expensive trip to the service shop to tear down and rebuild your fuel system.
One major difference, though...Alcohol blends will not break down as fast as non-oxygenated fuels so your fuel system is actually SAFER with the alcohol blend in it.
Regardless of what you choose to run in your engine, ALWAYS add a stabilizing agent to your tank if your boat is going to be sitting without use for a few weeks to months. Without it, you are allowing the fuel to break down and allowing those caustic additives to do damage to your components. If you read the label on any of the stabilizers out there (Sea Foam additive, Stabil, etc.) you will see a main component is....ALCOHOL.
Switching over to E10 from Non-oxy fuel
Some will argue that after running non-oxy 91 octane and switching to E10 caused gunk to build up in the engine... THAT is NOT TRUE.....we must consider what is really going on in the system... That gunk that is seen is the gunk that developed from the non-oxygenated fuel. Your system is being CLEANED by the ethanol fuel being used both in the tank, in the lines, in the ports...the entire fuel system. It will clear itself up over time if the contamination is small and your components will stay nice and clean thereafter. If one does switch, he/she should always carry an extra fuel filter as those contaminants will let go at times clogging up your filter. An extra filter keeps you on the water fishing.
In the end...the benefits to E10 Fuel are astounding as compared to non-oxygenated fuels. All engines built today are designed to run on E10 so there is absolutely no reason not to use it. Using 91 octane non-oxygenated fuel is honestly...wasting your own hard earned dollars on something that is NOT giving any benefits over E10 to your engine's fuel system. If anything...the savings you would see on a single tank of fuel (20 gallons) is almost enough to buy a new lure each time you go out fishing...and that lure will last a lot longer than your tank of fuel.
Steve
Edited by VMS 3/28/2019 12:49 PM
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Posts: 1087
Location: Hayward, WI | I have asked service reps for most of the outboard companies this question and all of them recommend staying away from any fuel with ethanol in them. A fuel/water separating fuel filter should get rid of any water in the fuel system. | |
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Posts: 1209
| This information may not be correct depending on your motor type. I KNOW a 2 stroke mercury pro xs will have more power with 87 octane over 92. 91/92 octane has a better resistance to "ping or detonation" but the two stroke motor doesn't have high enough compression to worry and the slower burning high octane doesn't reach its full potential before the exhaust ports, leaving more carbon buildup.
Ps seafoam is basically ethanol (correction isopropanol) and it is used for cleaning , so I suggest taking it easy on seafoam especially if using e10 fuel.
Edited by Fishysam 3/29/2019 10:08 AM
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Posts: 3472
Location: Elk River, Minnesota | kjgmh - 3/28/2019 3:02 PM
I have asked service reps for most of the outboard companies this question and all of them recommend staying away from any fuel with ethanol in them. A fuel/water separating fuel filter should get rid of any water in the fuel system.
I’d ask those same service reps about where they obtain their information... I follow the proven scientific facts and I will take that any day over a service rep ...
People have degrees in this realm and have proven this over and over...
Steve
Edited by VMS 3/28/2019 5:15 PM
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Location: Eastern Ontario | My mind is made up don't confuse me with facts 
Edited by horsehunter 3/28/2019 4:38 PM
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Posts: 1000
| horsehunter - 3/28/2019 4:35 PM
My mind is made up don't confuse me with facts
Don't baffle me with the facts! 
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Posts: 410
Location: With my son on the water | Great Post Steve
Very well written!
This is a true shift for lots of people, however, for me a real life example of how this works is with the use of a snowblower. They are used outside (get cold) then taken into a warmer garage, and guess what. Over time they get condensation/moisture in the tank and spit and sputter when they try to run. Solution: Dump some heat in the gas tank and the problem is gone (because the Alcohol absorbed/bonded the moisture and it runs threw).
Your facts support the case well. | |
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Posts: 3472
Location: Elk River, Minnesota | btfish...
That is a great example right there.... Years ago, you'd see commercials on TV for Heat in the red and yellow bottles advertising how they will get your vehicle going or prevent your vehicle from not starting (don't remember which one was which right off). If my memory serves me correctly this was before E10 was available, and engines were not fuel injected.
you'd add a container of heat...and Whoalla!! your engine would run better, or it would actually start for you on those cold winters...
Steve | |
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Location: Elko - Lake Vermilion | Very GOOD info Steve... Thank you ! | |
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Location: Ames, Iowa | Great read. Steve would you consider 87 with alcohol in a 2001 1st generation carbureted (3 carbs) Mercury 4 stroke? | |
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Posts: 3472
Location: Elk River, Minnesota | Hya!!
Absolutely I would!! If you have only run 91 octane through it before then, definitely carry a couple extra fuel filters for your engine for the summer... All the stuff that non-oxygenated fuel leaves behind will eventually come through the system... Best to protect your engine from it and play on the safe side of things.
I Just changed rigs last year, but for the previous 20 years, I was running carbed 2 strokes dating back to 1988 and had no issues...my first purchased motor was a 1988 Johnson 15 hp 2 stroke, then an 88 25hp 2 stroke, a 50hp 2 stoke, then went to Yamaha with a 90 2 stroke, back to a johnson 90hp 2 stroke, to what I now finally have...an evinrude Etec 150.
All have been run on 87 octane for the majority of the time with me....absolutely no issues at all in any of them.
Maintenance is key....stabilize the fuel, run fuel from pumps that are frequently filled up for fresh fuel, etc.
Steve
Edited by VMS 3/30/2019 7:47 AM
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Posts: 1087
Location: Hayward, WI | I really hope that people do some of their own research on this and not just take what one person claims as the truth. I see 300+ outboards a year. I have seen first hand issues that ethanol can cause. Ethanol is corrosive and attracts water, I don't care how that is spun, neither is a good thing. Yes, your components maybe E10 compatible, but that doesn't mean that it is good for them. | |
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Location: Eastern Ontario | Based on the fact that 1. the manual for both my motors HIGHLY recommends the use of 91 octane non alcohol fuel
2.That is the only fuel my tank and motor have ever had in them
3.The recommendation of my Suzuki dealer and a friend who owns the local Yamaha dealership
4.That is all that is available at the marina where my boat will be moored this year. ( their tanks are plastic and no fuel is kept over winter and with every boat in the marina fueling I'm sure the gas will be fresh )
I will just carry on with what I have always done.
If I was starting with a new motor and tank I would consider more thinking on the ethanol.
The following is from Mercury & West Marine
Busting Ethanol Fuel Myths
Keeping water out of the fuel system may prevent a call to TowBoatUS for a tow.
By Tom Burden, Last updated 12/3/2018
What are ethanol and ethanol-blended fuels?
Ethanol is used as an “oxygenate” and is added to fuel to help reduce hydrocarbon emissions that cause air pollution. It is highly refined beverage (grain) alcohol, approximately 200-proof, that can be produced from natural products such as corn, sugar cane and wheat.
New technology allows ethanol to be made from cellulose-rich feedstocks including corn stalks, grain straw, paper, pulp, wood chips, municipal waste, switchgrass and other sources. Ethanol used for fuel has been denatured or rendered unsafe to drink by the addition of a hydrocarbon (usually gasoline).
The term “ethanol-blended fuel,” or E10, refers to fuel that contains 10 percent ethanol and 90 percent gasoline. Similary, E85 refers to fuel that contains 85 percent ethanol and 15 percent gasoline. E85 is intended only for engines specially designed to accept high-ethanol content fuel blends, such as the Flexible Fuel Vehicles (FFV) made by some car companies. Not all states require gas pumps to be labeled to indicate the presence of ethanol in the fuel, so you may be currently using E10 fuel and not be aware of it. There have been efforts in Washington D.C. to introduce gas with 15 percent ethanol (E15). More on E15 and the potential dangers it poses for marine engines later in this Advisor.
How is ethanol made?
In the U.S., ethanol is typically produced by removing the starch or sugar portion of corn and fermenting it. The fermented starch is then distilled into alcohol. Excess water is removed, resulting in very pure, 200-proof, ethyl alcohol (ethanol). In some parts of the world, ethanol is made from a variety of raw materials. For example, sugar cane is used to produce ethanol in Brazil, while sugar beets and wheat straw are commonly used in Europe.
If you change over to E10 from non-ethanol gas, you should check for water in the water separating fuel filter. Carry spare filter elements, as ethanol is a solvent that loosens gunk in the fuel system.
Problems with the transition to E10 fuel
The most likely time for fuel problems occurs when you first begin using ethanol-blended fuel. When E10 is added to a fuel system that has been using non-ethanol gasoline, ethanol, as a new solvent, will tend to dissolve and loosen deposits that are present in the tank and fuel system. Phase separation may occur, resulting in an approximately 50/50 ethanol and water layer at the bottom of the fuel tank. To limit problems with a changeover to E10:
Check for the presence of water in the fuel tank. Inspect the water-separating fuel filter on larger engines. If water is found, pump the tank dry from the fuel line or siphon the tank dry. Examine the fuel in a clear container. If the fuel is not clear or has a sour odor, the tank should be cleaned.
Add a quality cleaner to help clean deposits in engine
Completely fill the tank with E10 fuel to maximize the amount of ethanol in the tank to absorb any water present
Monitor filters and carry extra fuel filters due to filter-clogging concerns
Phase separation with E10 fuel
When E10 gasoline comes into contact with water, ethanol will allow fuel to absorb some or all of that water. This is actually somewhat beneficial, but fuel can reach a saturation point and water can phase separate to form a distinct layer in the bottom of the tank. The upper “gasoline” layer will be depleted of ethanol and have a reduced octane level. The lower “phase separation” layer will be a corrosive mix of water and ethanol. No chemical agent or fuel additive can be added to E10 gasoline, in a reasonable quantity, that will fully prevent phase separation or recombine a phase-separated layer.
Winter storage of ethanol-blended gas
Seasonal storage with E10 fuel is another likely time for problems. During storage, fuel will tend to oxidize; it will become “sour”, and may absorb water from condensation. Water-holding capacity of E10 fuel is reduced with lower temperatures, so phase separation is more likely with winter temperatures. E10 can hold approximately 0.5% water at 60°F (.64 ounces in a gallon, or 12 ounces of water in a 20-gallon gas tank), but can only hold about 0.35% water at 20°F (.45 ounces in a gallon).
If possible, store your boat for the winter with a full fuel tank. Add a fuel stabilizer to the fuel at the recommended dosage. Run the engine for 10 minutes to distribute stabilized fuel into the engine and fuel lines. Top off the tank to reduce the amount of exchange with the air that may bring in condensation. Note: Some storage facilities require that fuel tanks be empty for storage.
Ethanol myths
MYTH: Fuel additives can cure or prevent all issues from ethanol-blended fuel.
TRUTH: There is no practical additive that can prevent phase separation from occurring. The only practical solution is to keep water from accumulating in the tank in the first place. In addition to using high-quality fuel additives, you should purchase quality fuel from trusted sources, check fuel filters and fuel tanks periodically for sediment and water, and keep up with manufacturer-recommended preventative maintenance schedules.
MYTH: Fuel additives can make phase-separated fuel (that has separated into layers of water and low-octane gas) usable.
TRUTH: “Bad” fuel should be completely removed and replaced with fresh fuel. Nothing can rejuvenate old fuel. To prevent fuel from going bad, most manufacturers recommend high-quality fuel additives to prevent sediment, gum and varnish buildup that forms when fuel goes bad, control moisture, help prevent phase separation and prevent fuel system corrosion.
MYTH: Ethanol-blended fuels are bad and should be avoided.
TRUTH: Ethanol blended fuels (E10) are common throughout much of the United States. After the transition period from non-ethanol fuel, E10 may actually be a superior marine fuel, as it tends to keep low levels of water moving through the fuel system, keeping the system “dry”. For over a decade, marine engines have been engineered to handle E10 gasoline. However, all types of fuels should be treated if they won’t be used in a few weeks.
E10 only, not E15, for your boat!
We still don’t know how and when E15 will be offered for sale, or if it will ever be sold in your local marina. We do know that you don’t want it in your marine engine, as the experts are unanimous on the subject. According to Mercury Marine: “Fuel containing higher proportions of ethanol is not compatible with many fuel system and engine components and, if mistakenly used, will cause irreversible damage to these components that will lead to engine failure and potential safety risks.” At this time, we can only warn you about the possibility of confusion and the risk of accidentally filling your boat’s gas tank with E15.
Keep your engine and fuel system safe
Do not put any fuel containing more than 10% ethanol (E10) in your boat’s fuel tank or outboard motor (EPA’s decision only applies to 2007 and newer highway vehicles), unless your owner’s manual specifically states otherwise.
Check the pump to be sure that it is dispensing E10. Some gas pumps at local gas stations may offer both E10 and E15, or have blender pumps that dispense mid-level ethanol fuels for Flex-Fuel automobiles. Higher ethanol fuel (E15) may be less expensive than regular (E10) fuel, but putting E15 into an E10 approved vessel could cause engine and fuel system damage.
Many boaters who trailer their boats (about 90% of recreational boat owners in the U.S.) fill their boat’s gas tank and/or gasoline can when they fill up their tow vehicle. Be sure that the gas can is filled only with E10 fuel. This will require a change of procedure when you fill up the new Silverado or Tundra truck, and then automatically top-up the tank for the wakeboard boat or fill the gas can for the Evinrude.
Thanks to the experts at Mercury Marine for technical help for this article concerning fuel system maintenance and issues surrounding ethanol-blended fuels.
Let us know what you think | |
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Posts: 3472
Location: Elk River, Minnesota | kjgmh - 3/30/2019 10:53 AM
I really hope that people do some of their own research on this and not just take what one person claims as the truth. I see 300+ outboards a year. I have seen first hand issues that ethanol can cause. Ethanol is corrosive and attracts water, I don't care how that is spun, neither is a good thing. Yes, your components maybe E10 compatible, but that doesn't mean that it is good for them.
Yep...I bet you have.... you are seeing the effects of what the E10 blend does to CLEAN the entire fuel system out...THAT is what you are dealing with along with a huge lack of maintenance and I would best most because of letting fuel sit unstabilized in their fuel systems. This isn't rocket science.... Use your engine, maintain it properly, and regardless of what fuel you use, it will run extremely well for a long long long time...
Claim all you want about how bad E10 is..., but unless YOU do your research of the science behind all of this...ACTUAL scientific studies...you will find differently. The oil companies WANT you to buy pure fuel...follow that too...the amount of propaganda out there is amazing doing everything they can to get people to think how bad E10 is... A 10% loss in fuel usage across a nation is a HUGE chunk of money to the oil companies.
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Location: Eastern Ontario | Steve why would the outboard manufactures recommend the more expensive fuel it would normally be in threr interest to promote how economically their motors can be run. | |
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Location: Eastern Ontario | From the Toronto Globe and Mail
Special to The Globe and Mail
Published March 22, 2016 Updated May 16, 2018
0 Comments
We recently bought our first home and will be buying a lawn mower, trimmer and snow blower. In doing my research, I found warnings about the harm that ethanol in modern gasoline can cause to these engines as well as to my dad's Olds 4-4-2, which I put away every winter. What is the problem and, more importantly, what is the cure? – Tom and Barb
In addition to being less volatile than gasoline – requiring more of it than gasoline to travel the same distance – ethanol can cause irreparable harm to gasoline-fueled internal combustion engines, whether in an automobile or a chain saw.
There are four problems with ethanol:
1.) It is corrosive when in contact with certain materials in fuel storage and delivery systems, including some rubber compounds and the zinc and aluminum alloys used in carburetors.
2.) Because it is an alcohol, ethanol dries out the rubber components in a fuel system. This leads to cracking and brittle fuel lines, floats, seals and diaphragms.
3.) Ethanol is hygroscopic – it likes water. Water enters fuel containers when they are filled up. Once in the gasoline, it forms a chemical mix that causes corrosion of internal parts. As the fuel level in a tank or container drops, water condenses on the cool surfaces of the vessel, drops and runs down into the fuel where the ethanol welcomes it.
4.) It acts as a solvent in older engines, dissolving the varnish and other deposits in tanks and lines. These then are carried to the carburetor or injection system where they can clog the small orifices involved.
In 2001, under pressure from the farm lobby, seeking a ready market for corn – used in the manufacture of ethanol – the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) approved gasoline with 15 per cent ethanol content, but prohibited its use in small engines and other power equipment due to the potential damage.
At that time, the U.S. Department of Energy reported that gasoline containing the allowed 15 per cent ethanol caused corrosion of metal parts, including carburetors, degradation of plastic and rubber components, harder starting, and reduced engine life in small engines. Other studies have shown that automobile engines produced prior to 2007 showed damage to valves, valve seats, seals, hoses and other components.
SOLUTIONS
Because of its love of water, gasoline containing ethanol should not be allowed to sit for any length of time. This is the reason it is not present in giant storage tanks, pipelines or bulk carriers, but added at the refinery just prior to delivery to gas stations.
The shelf life of gasoline containing ethanol is about one month, compared to three or four months with gasoline. Buy it in small quantities, run tanks near dry before refilling and after use. Do not store in that little red container more than a month, especially not over the winter or summer months. If it is older than that, dump it into a car or truck that uses gas frequently where it will mix with the fresh gasoline. If possible, run any tank containing ethanol dry before putting any engine away for a season or more.
There are some additives, such as Sta-Bil that promote safer long-term storage. I don't know of any scientific studies to back up these claims but do believe them and use the products myself.
SUPPLY
Since 2010, a Canadian Federal Renewable Fuel Regulation has required an annual volume-weighted average of 5 per cent renewable fuel (ethanol) in gasoline, excluding that sold into colder areas like the Yukon, Northwest Territories, Newfoundland and much of Quebec. The Regulation applies to refiners and importers. There are similar regulations in place regarding gas stations in Ontario and all provinces to the west. None of the four Atlantic provinces have regulations in place requiring ethanol, so many of their storage facilities have not been set up to handle fuel containing ethanol.
Here is where it gets tricky. Generally speaking, refineries will add ethanol to regular and a lesser amount to mid-grade gasoline to meet federal and provincial regulations. Because these grades make up the bulk of sales, it is not necessary to add ethanol to premium grades to achieve the required average.
In most areas of the country, it is thus possible to buy gasoline that does not contain ethanol. Buy premium if in doubt, regular in Nova Scotia and Newfoundland. There may be ethanol in regular grade in southern Quebec, New Brunswick and P.E.I. as the giant Irving refinery in New Brunswick does add ethanol to regular. Its largest customers are south of the border, but some may be delivered to Quebec and local stations.
The only people benefiting from ethanol are farmers and small engine repair shops.
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Posts: 3472
Location: Elk River, Minnesota | horsehunter - 3/30/2019 1:34 PM
Steve why would the outboard manufactures recommend the more expensive fuel it would normally be in threr interest to promote how economically their motors can be run.
I don't think anyone would argue there will be a loss is fuel efficiency with an E10 blend, so if you think about it, manufacturers want to get you to buy their product. The best fuel mileage will come from the non-oxygenated fuel so if they want to sell more product, they are going to want you to use the product that gets the best mileage out of it. The oil companies also lobby the manufacturers as well to print this stuff... That is all part of the propaganda put out there.
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | horsehunter - 3/30/2019 1:39 PM
From the Toronto Globe and Mail
Special to The Globe and Mail
Published March 22, 2016 Updated May 16, 2018
0 Comments
We recently bought our first home and will be buying a lawn mower, trimmer and snow blower. In doing my research, I found warnings about the harm that ethanol in modern gasoline can cause to these engines as well as to my dad's Olds 4-4-2, which I put away every winter. What is the problem and, more importantly, what is the cure? – Tom and Barb
In addition to being less volatile than gasoline – requiring more of it than gasoline to travel the same distance – ethanol can cause irreparable harm to gasoline-fueled internal combustion engines, whether in an automobile or a chain saw.
There are four problems with ethanol:
1.) It is corrosive when in contact with certain materials in fuel storage and delivery systems, including some rubber compounds and the zinc and aluminum alloys used in carburetors.
2.) Because it is an alcohol, ethanol dries out the rubber components in a fuel system. This leads to cracking and brittle fuel lines, floats, seals and diaphragms.
3.) Ethanol is hygroscopic – it likes water. Water enters fuel containers when they are filled up. Once in the gasoline, it forms a chemical mix that causes corrosion of internal parts. As the fuel level in a tank or container drops, water condenses on the cool surfaces of the vessel, drops and runs down into the fuel where the ethanol welcomes it.
4.) It acts as a solvent in older engines, dissolving the varnish and other deposits in tanks and lines. These then are carried to the carburetor or injection system where they can clog the small orifices involved.
In 2001, under pressure from the farm lobby, seeking a ready market for corn – used in the manufacture of ethanol – the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) approved gasoline with 15 per cent ethanol content, but prohibited its use in small engines and other power equipment due to the potential damage.
At that time, the U.S. Department of Energy reported that gasoline containing the allowed 15 per cent ethanol caused corrosion of metal parts, including carburetors, degradation of plastic and rubber components, harder starting, and reduced engine life in small engines. Other studies have shown that automobile engines produced prior to 2007 showed damage to valves, valve seats, seals, hoses and other components.
SOLUTIONS
Because of its love of water, gasoline containing ethanol should not be allowed to sit for any length of time. This is the reason it is not present in giant storage tanks, pipelines or bulk carriers, but added at the refinery just prior to delivery to gas stations.
The shelf life of gasoline containing ethanol is about one month, compared to three or four months with gasoline. Buy it in small quantities, run tanks near dry before refilling and after use. Do not store in that little red container more than a month, especially not over the winter or summer months. If it is older than that, dump it into a car or truck that uses gas frequently where it will mix with the fresh. If possible, run any tank containing ethanol dry before putting any engine away for a season or more.
There are some additives, such as Sta-Bil that promote safer long-term storage. I don't know of any scientific studies to back up these claims but do believe them and use the products myself.
SUPPLY
Since 2010, a Canadian Federal Renewable Fuel Regulation has required an annual volume-weighted average of 5 per cent renewable fuel (ethanol) in gasoline, excluding that sold into colder areas like the Yukon, Northwest Territories, Newfoundland and much of Quebec. The Regulation applies to refiners and importers. There are similar regulations in place regarding gas stations in Ontario and all provinces to the west. None of the four Atlantic provinces have regulations in place requiring ethanol, so many of their storage facilities have not been set up to handle fuel containing ethanol.
Here is where it gets tricky. Generally speaking, refineries will add ethanol to regular and a lesser amount to mid-grade gasoline to meet federal and provincial regulations. Because these grades make up the bulk of sales, it is not necessary to add ethanol to premium grades to achieve the required average.
In most areas of the country, it is thus possible to buy gasoline that does not contain ethanol. Buy premium if in doubt, regular in Nova Scotia and Newfoundland. There may be ethanol in regular grade in southern Quebec, New Brunswick and P.E.I. as the giant Irving refinery in New Brunswick does add ethanol to regular. Its largest customers are south of the border, but some may be delivered to Quebec and local stations.
The only people benefiting from ethanol are farmers and small engine repair shops.
So much misinformation (actually, a stronger word comes to mind but the profanity filter will not allow it) here it's actually funny. I'll link up each mis-truth and source information for facts as soon as I get the time. We have shot interviews with 25 years experience mechanics who know what solvents in gasoline are causing issues in older engines and which are not, and no one has told us they could identify any major problems with e10 due to the ethanol content.
The author of that piece knows almost nothing about ethanol. | |
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Posts: 32801
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | kjgmh - 3/30/2019 10:53 AM
I really hope that people do some of their own research on this and not just take what one person claims as the truth. I see 300+ outboards a year. I have seen first hand issues that ethanol can cause. Ethanol is corrosive and attracts water, I don't care how that is spun, neither is a good thing. Yes, your components maybe E10 compatible, but that doesn't mean that it is good for them.
Ethanol does NOT 'attract' water and is far less corrosive than many of the chemicals blended with today's gasoline. That's a basis in fact that will lead you to the actual cause of the issues you are referring to. Once one acknowledges that fact the rest falls into line with an understanding of the chemicals now used in gasoline. Name them, please. Especially the solvent used to dissolve rubber.
In the meantime I'll get a list made after speaking with the gasoline specialists we have contacted, what each does on it's own and when blended with petrochemicals. | |
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Posts: 1087
Location: Hayward, WI | Sorry, readily absorb water is the correct term I guess, not attract. If ethanol doesn't cause any of these problems, why does no outboard manufacture allow the use of E15? E10 is touted as a great fuel, but E15 isn't allowed? Or even E85? It is due to the properties of ethanol and the fact that components cant handle it. | |
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Posts: 518
Location: WI | kjgmh - 4/1/2019 12:13 PM
Sorry, readily absorb water is the correct term I guess, not attract. If ethanol doesn't cause any of these problems, why does no outboard manufacture allow the use of E15? E10 is touted as a great fuel, but E15 isn't allowed? Or even E85? It is due to the properties of ethanol and the fact that components cant handle it.
If I read the previous thread with the exact same debate correctly, I believe the answer is propaganda and big oil. | |
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Posts: 16632
Location: The desert | I don’t know which side of the debate to be on, but I think one should also acknowledge that big Ag/ethanol likely has a lobby too and it’s not the little farmers overly involved here.
VMS seems to be pretty dialed in on the subject and other outboard related subjects, I’d feel reasonably confident trusting his advice.
I do wonder if some older outboards wouldn’t transition over well, kind of like flushing a transmission after a long time the detergents clean things that might actually be holding stuff together. If you ended up with some gunk issues due to years of build up would you see a major cost savings if you made the switch? | |
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Posts: 3472
Location: Elk River, Minnesota | Hiya,
With the older outboards, those engines were built when fuel was vastly different, so changing over would have some initial cost to it...rebuild/replacement of parts in the carbs, certain plastic parts, fuel lines, etc. that were used were not designed to handle the various additives in the fuel of today...
Some things would be quick with fuel lines, but carb parts and gaskets might be a bit harder to come by being out of production for so many years...
Once converted and prepped, I would see no issue with the change and the motor would run quite well on it.
Steve | |
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Posts: 3472
Location: Elk River, Minnesota | kjgmh - 4/1/2019 12:13 PM
Sorry, readily absorb water is the correct term I guess, not attract. If ethanol doesn't cause any of these problems, why does no outboard manufacture allow the use of E15? E10 is touted as a great fuel, but E15 isn't allowed? Or even E85? It is due to the properties of ethanol and the fact that components cant handle it.
The correct term is "bonds" with the water... There is no chemical reaction taking place but what is called hydrogen bonding...
I'm sure every manufacturer out there is putting their engines through E15 testing, and My gut would say that testing is going to take a couple of years to complete.
Steve | |
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| VMS - 4/1/2019 10:02 PM
kjgmh - 4/1/2019 12:13 PM
Sorry, readily absorb water is the correct term I guess, not attract. If ethanol doesn't cause any of these problems, why does no outboard manufacture allow the use of E15? E10 is touted as a great fuel, but E15 isn't allowed? Or even E85? It is due to the properties of ethanol and the fact that components cant handle it.
The correct term is "bonds" with the water... There is no chemical reaction taking place but what is called hydrogen bonding...
I'm sure every manufacturer out there is putting their engines through E15 testing, and My gut would say that testing is going to take a couple of years to complete.
Steve
Seems like such a waste for something that has no ill effects on fuel systems...lol
Why dont vehicles burn 100% ethanol instead of 85%? Hmmmm Liquor lobby maybe?
I sure wish they would put those corn popping commercials back on promoting flex fuel cars. lol
Edited by 4amuskie 4/2/2019 11:38 AM
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Posts: 32801
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | 4amuskie - 4/2/2019 7:22 AM
VMS - 4/1/2019 10:02 PM
kjgmh - 4/1/2019 12:13 PM
Sorry, readily absorb water is the correct term I guess, not attract. If ethanol doesn't cause any of these problems, why does no outboard manufacture allow the use of E15? E10 is touted as a great fuel, but E15 isn't allowed? Or even E85? It is due to the properties of ethanol and the fact that components cant handle it.
The correct term is "bonds" with the water... There is no chemical reaction taking place but what is called hydrogen bonding...
I'm sure every manufacturer out there is putting their engines through E15 testing, and My gut would say that testing is going to take a couple of years to complete.
Steve
Seems like such a waste for something that has no ill effects on fuel systems...lol
Why dont vehicles burn 100% ethanol instead of 85%? Hmmmm Liquor lobby maybe?
I sure wish they would put those corn popping commercials back on promoting flex fuel cars. lol
There are engines built to run on 100% alcohol based fuels, and mods some super performance engine builders use to extract every ounce of power they can out of e85. Then there's methanol (wood alcohol) and Indy cars and Nitromethane in the dragsters and funny cars. Unreal power and speed, but not at the efficiency we would want unless crude oil prices make it so, which will happen from time to time.
Believe it or not NASCAR vehicles are reported to run on 110-octane leaded gasoline. Edit: That apparently changed a few years back, see VMS post below.
The answer to your question is available to you, look into the formulation of e85, listing all the chemicals in that fuel.
Short List: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_gasoline_additives#Additives
Start looking at labels around the house. Ethanol is an ingredient in hundreds of products.
VMS is correct on the testing. Also, e15 formulation changes season to season and the additives can make a difference. Look into that, too, it's interesting as the season can generate what the sticker on the pump says.
Lots of odd stuff. Today I filled my car with e15 at a discount of about a dime pg, and all winter the discount was a nickle pg.
Mercury recently introduced an outboard that runs on propane (5 HP). That's cool for sure, and I'm interested in what happens to the water that's produced during a propane burn. | |
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Posts: 93
| Study Shows Top Tier Gasoline Worth the Extra Price
http://flip.it/OS6mHF
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Posts: 3472
Location: Elk River, Minnesota | Hiya!!
2011, NASCAR updated their fuel program and have been running in E15. Lead was removed I believe in 2008. With all of the testing the race car teams put in through research and development, there have been no issues with it. Engines still blow up due to the same things they did even before the change... pushing the envelope on fuel air ratios, rpm limits etc...
That propane motor is going to be a big difference.. heck... we have seen the use of propane ice augers, and almost all passenger vehicles can be retrofitted to run propane. All of the commuter busses in the Grand Canyon run on propane...
That’s a game changer!! Carbon dioxide and water from burning propane. The big thing there will be the tanks on our boats...
Steve
Edited by VMS 4/3/2019 1:27 PM
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Posts: 32801
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin |
Top Tier requirements must include all grades of fuel offered at the qualified retailer. It's an additive package. From what I understand, the additives do nothing to stabilize fuel, the additives just clean the injectors and intake valves better. I remember that program going into effect around 15 years ago, I think, the valves clean on one side and dirty on the other of a video frame. I think the commercials called it 'high detergent' gasoline.
VMS, I didn't know that, but suspected it may have been changed which is why I posted the 'reported to be'. I was surprised as heck to read the leaded claim in a recent article, good thing they switched. | |
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Posts: 363
Location: SW Ohio | Here in Ohio one of the biggest additives is Toluene, more so than any other state or so it was. I worked in the Harley Davidson industry as a master tech. We ran into a myriad of fuel system problems for several years and couldn't figure out why. Brand new bikes would start, stall and not restart. Change out the internal and external fuel lines and they worked...for a while. Eventually enough dealers had problems that H-D finally sent some engineers out to test the fuel around the state. Turns out that Toluene was the culprit. In high enough concentrations it would cause the rubber components to soften, swell and eventually block the fuel system. This forced H-D to upgrade all the rubber fuel system components across their entire fleet.
So, while ethanol is not good for many of today's engines and fuel systems, there are other additives that can be far worse. | |
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Posts: 3472
Location: Elk River, Minnesota | Hiya..
I think you hit the nail on the head with the additives.. it’s not the alcohol causing the issues... it’s the other stuff...
SWorrall....it was a really cool change when they made that switch... lots of teams were worried about how the fuel would perform, how many laps they could run, etc... in all it was a great transition.. I was thinking more on the other fuels used too... methane for Indy cars... that stuff is dangerous as you cannot see it burning. Nitro methane in top fuel dragsters is really hard on your breathing... it burns your nostrils and eyes.. it they have an alcohol class as well...
Really cool stuff when you think about it.
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | OH Musky - 4/3/2019 3:10 AM
Here in Ohio one of the biggest additives is Toluene, more so than any other state or so it was. I worked in the Harley Davidson industry as a master tech. We ran into a myriad of fuel system problems for several years and couldn't figure out why. Brand new bikes would start, stall and not restart. Change out the internal and external fuel lines and they worked...for a while. Eventually enough dealers had problems that H-D finally sent some engineers out to test the fuel around the state. Turns out that Toluene was the culprit. In high enough concentrations it would cause the rubber components to soften, swell and eventually block the fuel system. This forced H-D to upgrade all the rubber fuel system components across their entire fleet.
So, while ethanol is not good for many of today's engines and fuel systems, there are other additives that can be far worse.
What engines is e10 'not good' for? We've covered that about 5 different ways here, is there an exception? | |
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Posts: 363
Location: SW Ohio | sworrall - 4/3/2019 5:32 PM
OH Musky - 4/3/2019 3:10 AM
Here in Ohio one of the biggest additives is Toluene, more so than any other state or so it was. I worked in the Harley Davidson industry as a master tech. We ran into a myriad of fuel system problems for several years and couldn't figure out why. Brand new bikes would start, stall and not restart. Change out the internal and external fuel lines and they worked...for a while. Eventually enough dealers had problems that H-D finally sent some engineers out to test the fuel around the state. Turns out that Toluene was the culprit. In high enough concentrations it would cause the rubber components to soften, swell and eventually block the fuel system. This forced H-D to upgrade all the rubber fuel system components across their entire fleet.
So, while ethanol is not good for many of today's engines and fuel systems, there are other additives that can be far worse.
What engines is e10 'not good' for? We've covered that about 5 different ways here, is there an exception?
Any engine not designed for it. Any engine built prior to the inception of ethanol. Any engine and fuel system that was not designed to run ethanol without modification. Especially EFI systems that don't take into account the added fuel required to compensate for the ethanol.
Edited by OH Musky 4/3/2019 5:34 PM
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | No one even suggested ethanol should be used in engines not designed for e10; my question was generated by your statement which implies those engines are considered 'today's' designs by the major engine manufacturers.
Incidentally, a majority of fuel system damages blamed on ethanol turned out to be caused by other additives. In fact, one of those additives actually is a solvent that dissolves rubber. This formulation didn't exist when the engines and fuel systems you refer to were built and also are used by major gasoline brands in non-oxygenated fuel.
Please clarify what you mean by the 'added fuel required to compensate for the ethanol', are you referring to the fuel rails?
Thanks for the clarification. | |
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Posts: 661
Location: Roscoe IL | Interesting read..
I'm betting it would be a few months before I use up a full tank of gas. Based on the entertaining and informative gas threads I have been reading here, I should add stabilizer after each fill up for a Mercury Pro 150XS
I check online to order it and of course there are several types. MERC Quickstor - Fuel treatment additive and a slew of other brands and types with prices all over the place.
Now what what to do?
I'm overthinking things again i'm sure..
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | ToothyCritter - 4/4/2019 10:34 AM
Interesting read..
I'm betting it would be a few months before I use up a full tank of gas. Based on the entertaining and informative gas threads I have been reading here, I should add stabilizer after each fill up for a Mercury Pro 150XS
I check online to order it and of course there are several types. MERC Quickstor - Fuel treatment additive and a slew of other brands and types with prices all over the place.
Now what what to do?
I'm overthinking things again i'm sure..
To be sure, and use Merc products:
Quicksilver Quickleen Fuel System Cleaner
Even more than the gas in your car, the gas in your ATV/UTV or dirt bike needs special care to keep your engine running at peak performance. Gasoline begins to go bad within a few weeks. When left untreated, some of the fuel components begin to oxidize and form a gum-like substance, which settles in fuel lines and tanks, carburetors, and injectors. When you try to burn this fuel, deposits can form in the combustion chamber. Over time, these deposits build up and reduce your engine’s performance.
Use Quickleen to:
Prevent engine knocking and piston seize-up
Extend spark plug life
1 ounce treats 5 gallons - 12 ounce bottle treats 60 gallons
https://www.wholesalemarine.com/quicksilver-quickleen-fuel-system-cl... | |
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Posts: 93
| sworrall - 4/3/2019 4:32 PM
What engines is e10 'not good' for?
Mine.
Your mileage may vary.
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Posts: 3472
Location: Elk River, Minnesota | undersized - 4/4/2019 11:20 AM
sworrall - 4/3/2019 4:32 PM
What engines is e10 'not good' for?
Mine.
Your mileage may vary.
Hiya,
That is your "choice" to believe, my friend...it is not a proven engineered fact.
Edited by VMS 4/4/2019 12:09 PM
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Posts: 410
Location: With my son on the water | I maybe should start another thread but this is still about gas.
A few years ago I had an idle issue on my merc 150 four stroke in the late fall. The motor would shake more than normal at low idle. I noticed it right before I put the boat away.
So I stored the boat and winterized as normal. Fogging the cylinders. Then in the winter I call the mercury technical hot line and got great help. The guy thought I was getting carbon from either trolling, low speed running due to being cold, or both.
He told me to run Merc Quickleen in my first tank in the spring to clean up the carbon. So I did that and it ran great.
He also told me to use Mercury Quickcare with every fill up as it has both a stabilizer and a cleaner. He then said right before winterizing to run Mercury Quickstor as it has stronger stabilizing agents and fog the cylinders when I store.
Obviously repeat the process year after year which I have been doing for about 4 years with zero issues.
Like Steve said a bottle will treat like 60 gallons and cost around $10 a bottle.
Edited by btfish 4/4/2019 12:32 PM
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Location: Elk River, Minnesota | It's all about the correct process of maintenance... A great example to show just how easy and simple the process is.
Steve | |
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Location: 31 | ToothyCritter - 4/4/2019 10:34 AM
I'm betting it would be a few months before I use up a full tank of gas.
Now what what to do?
Mike, if some of that gas is from last summer, I would consider draining it and starting fresh.
I've drained my boat's gas several times and all I had to do was raise the boat up with the trailer jack, disconnect the gas line after the bulb, attach a longer length of gas line to reach a gas can on the ground… a few squeezes and gravity did its thing. It's a bit of a slow process, but then you are starting off the season with clean fresh fuel.
You could also try to remember to run the tank low in the fall so it's stored with fresh fuel, if the gas in my boat sat that long I would use premium to offset degradation as well.
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Posts: 32801
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | VMS - 4/4/2019 12:06 PM
undersized - 4/4/2019 11:20 AM
sworrall - 4/3/2019 4:32 PM
What engines is e10 'not good' for?
Mine.
Your mileage may vary.
Hiya,
That is your "choice" to believe, my friend...it is not a proven engineered fact.
Unless he has an older motor. If not, then revert to VMS comment. | |
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Posts: 363
Location: SW Ohio | sworrall - 4/3/2019 7:31 PM
Please clarify what you mean by the 'added fuel required to compensate for the ethanol', are you referring to the fuel rails?
Thanks for the clarification.
There are older systems (most still on the road/water) that have a tendency to run lean (or leaner) when run on ethanol added fuels. Since they are not closed-loop systems there is no way for the ECM (or old carbs) to tell that the the AFR is off. Ethanol does not burn at the same rate or provide the same power as straight gasoline. If the ECM programming has not been designed to compensate for the ethanol content there can be a tendency towards detonation (knocking) under heavy load. That's where a lot of the additives come in to offset the effects.
Another thing, other than ethanol, is the supposed "nitrogen enhanced" fuels that Shell had out. While it may work well in cars, this fuel caused severe issues in air cooled motors. Cylinder and head temps were much higher when these fuels were used resulting in shortened engine life. We ran a lot of tests on Harleys that had heat issues that went away when switched off of Shell fuels. Head, oil and exhaust temps all went down, and that is a good thing for any engine.
Yes, our outboards are not Harleys and they are not air cooled. But they are closer to air cooled than a controlled water cooled system of cars. They are run at WOT for longer and give very little advance notice of an impending catastrophic failure. Excess heat is the main culprit.
While i don't like to use any ethanol added fuels in my outboard or bike, I don't have much choice as there is no straight gasoline fuels near me. I use additives to prevent any issues that may arise from ethanol, especially when on the road. At home I stick to the same gas stations each time I fill up. | |
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | What additives do you use and exactly what ethanol issues are addressed?
Today's marine engines are designed to run on e10 (they have to be) and therefore are designed to run on that mix without overheating issues. As long as your water pump is working the water jacket will handle the engine temps just fine running e10.
This is especially true in the case of the engine you are running according to your posts.
I'd really like to clarify the additives you are using and what they claim to do. I have a breakdown from independent testing as to what the more popular additives actually accomplish.
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Location: Roscoe IL | Jerry Newman - 4/4/2019 2:20 PM
ToothyCritter - 4/4/2019 10:34 AM
I'm betting it would be a few months before I use up a full tank of gas.
Now what what to do?
Mike, if some of that gas is from last summer, I would consider draining it and starting fresh.
I've drained my boat's gas several times and all I had to do was raise the boat up with the trailer jack, disconnect the gas line after the bulb, attach a longer length of gas line to reach a gas can on the ground… a few squeezes and gravity did its thing. It's a bit of a slow process, but then you are starting off the season with clean fresh fuel.
You could also try to remember to run the tank low in the fall so it's stored with fresh fuel, if the gas in my boat sat that long I would use premium to offset degradation as well.
Hi Jerry,
The boat is right off the showroom floor. Come to find out Ranger does not put much gas in it at all so the tank is empty for the most part. I didn't put any in yet as I'm going to wait until the registration number comes in before I take it out for it's maiden voyage. | |
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Location: Elk River, Minnesota | OH Musky - 4/7/2019 8:50 AM
sworrall - 4/3/2019 7:31 PM
Please clarify what you mean by the 'added fuel required to compensate for the ethanol', are you referring to the fuel rails?
Thanks for the clarification.
There are older systems (most still on the road/water ) that have a tendency to run lean (or leaner ) when run on ethanol added fuels. Since they are not closed-loop systems there is no way for the ECM (or old carbs ) to tell that the the AFR is off. Ethanol does not burn at the same rate or provide the same power as straight gasoline. If the ECM programming has not been designed to compensate for the ethanol content there can be a tendency towards detonation (knocking ) under heavy load. That's where a lot of the additives come in to offset the effects.
Response: On any carbed engine, this would be tuned out manually through fuel-air adjustment, then run completely fine. I am not aware of any efi system would not compensate for fuel air ratio due to ethanol. can you supply an engine brand and model that didn’t have this capability? And... what additives were added to offset this?
Another thing, other than ethanol, is the supposed "nitrogen enhanced" fuels that Shell had out. While it may work well in cars, this fuel caused severe issues in air cooled motors. Cylinder and head temps were much higher when these fuels were used resulting in shortened engine life. We ran a lot of tests on Harleys that had heat issues that went away when switched off of Shell fuels. Head, oil and exhaust temps all went down, and that is a good thing for any engine.
Response: Just saw this the other day and the nitrogen enhanced fuel (at least at the station I was at ) was only 91 octane... unless the engine has been modified by shaving the head or some other enhancement on the engine, there’s be no need to run the 91 octane...
Yes, our outboards are not Harleys and they are not air cooled. But they are closer to air cooled than a controlled water cooled system of cars. They are run at WOT for longer and give very little advance notice of an impending catastrophic failure. Excess heat is the main culprit.
Response: I would tend to disagree here. With outboards, they are constantly getting a supply of cold water to their system... much colder than a closed and controlled antifreeze system. It’s why an outboard engines overall have great longevity...given proper maintenance of the water pump system.
While i don't like to use any ethanol added fuels in my outboard or bike, I don't have much choice as there is no straight gasoline fuels near me. I use additives to prevent any issues that may arise from ethanol, especially when on the road. At home I stick to the same gas stations each time I fill up.
Response: The only issues you’d see running ethanol would be the time-frame in which the engine is being cleaned out of all of the residues left from non oxygenated fuels. Once that is complete, and a fuel filter change is done, you'd see absolutely no issues... The additives you add on this one as well... what are they?
Steve
Edited by VMS 4/10/2019 6:50 AM
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Posts: 323
Location: Elk River, MN | VMS - How would you recommend making the switch to e10? Should you run your tank near empty and then switch over? While also keeping an eye on the fuel filter for deposit buildup? Or could you simply add e10 to a half tank of non-oxy and carry on as you would. Any drawback to mixing the two? | |
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Posts: 32801
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | I'd run a recommended mix of the engine manufacturer's fuel cleaning product in the e10 and regular fuel you run by simply filling up with e10, and watch your fuel filter, you should be just fine. | |
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Posts: 3472
Location: Elk River, Minnesota | Exactly as Steve Worrall stated. | |
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Posts: 363
Location: SW Ohio | VMS - 4/9/2019 2:13 PM
Response: The only issues you’d see running ethanol would be the time-frame in which the engine is being cleaned out of all of the residues left from non oxygenated fuels. Once that is complete, and a fuel filter change is done, you'd see absolutely no issues... The additives you add on this one as well... what are they?
Steve
I run Seafoam in my bike especially if I take a long trip on it and get fuel where ever I can. Used to run in it my Sierra but I have a diesel now. On my Merc 115 I used Quickare and Quickleen. With my new Yamaha I'm running Ring Free Plus and my leftover Merc products. I may continue to use the Merc products or go back to Seafoam or Marine Stabil. The fuel in my boat doesn't get turned over as much as any other vehicle I have so it's in a storage mode most of the time. | |
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