|
|
Posts: 21
| Is ethanol free, recreational fuel, and non-alcohol gas all the same? I've seen all three and it seems like recreational fuel is usually the most expensive. | |
| | |
Location: Athens, Ohio | Might it be the federal excise tax (Breaux-Wallop)? If so, that money gets split up for states' outdoor program funding. Same thing you pay on fishing gear. m | |
| | |
Posts: 3469
Location: Elk River, Minnesota | ArtieT - 2/19/2019 8:06 AM
Is ethanol free, recreational fuel, and non-alcohol gas all the same? I've seen all three and it seems like recreational fuel is usually the most expensive.
They are not the same. The 91 octane non-ethanol fuel will burn a little more smoothly, and will give you a very very slight increase in output.
Both fuels work well in your equipment, and someone will most likely tell you "only run non-ethanol fuel in your outboard." because the alcohol blended fuel will enhance the deterioration of gaskets, fuel lines, etc. Most, if not all of those situations occur from an engine that is not properly stored or taken care of. I've run 87 ethanol blended fuels in my engines for as long as I remember. Engines from the 70's and on, and have yet to have any issues with any engine. The ONLY one I would ever be worried about would be the 1973 Johnson 20 hp that is still in the family as the fuel lines on the motor have never been changed and are not alcohol resistant, and due to being 46 years old...probably need to be changed anyway.
Run the 87 octane all you want....the engines of today are designed to handle alcohol blended fuels. At the end of the season, be sure to stabilize the fuel, and/or run the fuel out of your motor... All will be good for next season.
Steve
Edited by VMS 2/20/2019 3:51 PM
| |
| | |
Posts: 21
| I understand there’s a difference between ethanol and non ethanol gas, but I was curious of the different labeling of “rec gas”, “ethanol free”, and “no alcohol” gas? They all seem to be non ethanol. Is one better or worse than the other? | |
| | |
| ArtieT - 2/20/2019 8:52 PM
I understand there’s a difference between ethanol and non ethanol gas, but I was curious of the different labeling of “rec gas”, “ethanol free”, and “no alcohol” gas? They all seem to be non ethanol. Is one better or worse than the other?
Locally, what I have noticed is the place selling "rec gas, ethanol free" is that it is 91 octane, a little higher octane than the place selling "non-ethanol" at 87 octane. Don't know if that means anything, just what I observed. | |
| | |
Posts: 3469
Location: Elk River, Minnesota | Hiya,
Most likely, they are all the same (given the same octane which should be posted at the pump) but as North of 8 stated, it is more likely listed differently to separate non-ethanol 87 octane and the higher non-ethanol 91 octane.
And yes...they will charge a premium for non-ethanol fuel regardless as it is more expensive to produce than than ethanol blended fuels as it is cheaper to refine corn into alcohol than it is to refine oil into it's different components. The higher the octane, the more expensive it gets....
Steve
Edited by VMS 2/20/2019 9:55 PM
| |
| | |
Posts: 21
| North of 8 - 2/20/2019 9:19 PM
ArtieT - 2/20/2019 8:52 PM
I understand there’s a difference between ethanol and non ethanol gas, but I was curious of the different labeling of “rec gas”, “ethanol free”, and “no alcohol” gas? They all seem to be non ethanol. Is one better or worse than the other?
Locally, what I have noticed is the place selling "rec gas, ethanol free" is that it is 91 octane, a little higher octane than the place selling "non-ethanol" at 87 octane. Don't know if that means anything, just what I observed.
That makes sense. I didn't notice the octane differences. I was filling up a quad, so I'd assume both 87 or 91 octane would be fine. | |
| | |
Posts: 21
| VMS - 2/20/2019 9:52 PM
Hiya,
Most likely, they are all the same (given the same octane which should be posted at the pump) but as North of 8 stated, it is more likely listed differently to separate non-ethanol 87 octane and the higher non-ethanol 91 octane.
And yes...they will charge a premium for non-ethanol fuel regardless as it is more expensive to produce than than ethanol blended fuels as it is cheaper to refine corn into alcohol than it is to refine oil into it's different components. The higher the octane, the more expensive it gets....
Steve
When I was in Michigan two weeks ago, BP Rec Fuel was $4.75/gal. Casey's "non alcohol" was $3.02. That's a big difference when filling 30 or more gallons. | |
| | |
Posts: 3469
Location: Elk River, Minnesota | Hiya,
The only thing I could possibly think of why such a huge difference in price is maybe the rec fuel is a 2 stroke mixture? I have seen this at gas stations in northern Minnesota before but it was always listed as 2-stroke Outboard fuel so it wouldn't be mixed up...
steve
| |
| | |
Location: Contrarian Island | I have run regular 87 in all my boats, atvs, etc.. if you use your motor often and put some marine stabil in it here and there and store it properly no reason not to run 87. In small motors I think non ethanol is more important like an ice auger or chain saw etc.. | |
| | |
Posts: 32798
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Actually, ethanol is an octane booster. Gasoline today has an average shelf life of a few weeks before beginning to break down, and that includes ethanol free fuel. It's not blended like fuel used to be. There are literally dozens of caustic, nasty chemical added to get by the EPA regs and hit the necessary octane ratings. One of those chemicals actually is used as a solvent and can dissolve rubber. No matter which fuel you choose, if it;s going to be in the tank for a month or more, stabilize it. You are doing nothing because of or to ethanol, that actually helps, not hurts, the life of gasoline.
Ethanol blends at e10 level are perfect for small engines, all of them, and all these days are made to run e10. | |
| | |
Posts: 93
| It's not quite so simple as "don't worry about it, everything is fine."
For example, the Kwik Trips in my area have switched their 87 and 89 octane almost exlusively to e15. The 91 octane they have is straight gas. So...no option for e10. And my newer outboard is specifically labelled not to use e15. That means the only option at the majority of gas stations near me is pure gas at a premium rate.
| |
| | |
Posts: 3469
Location: Elk River, Minnesota | There is an option for E10 if you choose from Quicktrip given all of them are using either E15 or non-oxy fuel.
All you need is a 2/3 E15 and 1/3 pure, So for every 3 gallons, you would need 2 gallons of E15 and 1 gallon of non-oxy. When buying fuel, just keep to 3 gallon increments and you can get it done quite easily.
I wouldn't expect anyone to actually do this though... 
Steve
Edited by VMS 2/21/2019 5:08 PM
| |
| | |
Location: Eastern Ontario | VMS - 2/21/2019 6:07 PM
There is an option for E10 if you choose from Quicktrip given all of them are using either E15 or non-oxy fuel.
All you need is a 2/3 E15 and 1/3 pure, So for every 3 gallons, you would need 2 gallons of E15 and 1 gallon of non-oxy. When buying fuel, just keep to 3 gallon increments and you can get it done quite easily.
I wouldn't expect anyone to actually do this though...
Steve
Only from the math teacher. I hope Steve's not too disappointed to hear that i made it through another day without algebra and the only geometry I use is on a snooker table. 
Edited by horsehunter 2/21/2019 5:48 PM
| |
| | |
Posts: 3469
Location: Elk River, Minnesota | Hahaha!! | |
| | |
Posts: 93
| When buying fuel, just keep to 3 gallon increments and you can get it done quite easily.
Or maybe I just won't use ethanol in my boat.
| |
| | |
Posts: 3469
Location: Elk River, Minnesota | out goes the air....
Edited by VMS 2/22/2019 9:05 AM
Attachments
----------------
 th.jpg (20KB - 416 downloads)
| |
| | |
Location: 31 | ArtieT - 2/19/2019 8:06 AM
Is ethanol free, recreational fuel, and non-alcohol gas all the same? I've seen all three and it seems like recreational fuel is usually the most expensive.
They are not the same...
Whenever possible (which is almost “always”) I happily seek out and pay the extra for ethanol free gas in my boat. I consider this to be a fairly inexpensive safeguard, along with using the manufacturers recommended additives.
To each their own… Yamaha does not say not to use it... but they also say this in their maintenance matters brochure:
Ethanol is alcohol, and alcohol is “hygroscopic,” which means it attracts water molecules. Since nearly all boat fuel tanks are vented to the atmosphere, water can (and will) collect in your fuel. When the concentration of water molecules in your fuel tank reaches just ½ of 1%, the water molecules will bond with the alcohol and sink to the bottom, where your fuel pick up is. Depending on the amount of water ingested into your outboard, this can result in everything from running problems to catastrophic damage. Ethanol, being alcohol, is also a powerful solvent that can loosen debris in your fuel tank and all the tanks and lines it was in before it got to you.
http://maintenance.yamahaoutboards.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/M...
Edited by Jerry Newman 2/22/2019 10:23 AM
| |
| | |
Posts: 3469
Location: Elk River, Minnesota | Hiya,
This is why so many boats today have a water/fuel separator filter installed on them to deal with just such an issue. I, myself have never had this issue in some 15 years of running a fuel-water separator on my rigs. In the fall, I dump out the fuel in the filter, let it sit for a while and see...and I have yet to see any water in my fuel.
I think there are regions within the US where this might be more prevalent, but up here in MN, I have not seen or experienced enough of a humidity change over a long period of time to allow that much water to develop in my fuel system.
I still feel it all comes down to two major things: Proper storage (stabilization of fuel) and maintenance (filter replacement), and your engine will last a long long time without issue.
Steve
Edited by VMS 2/22/2019 12:02 PM
| |
| | |
Posts: 32798
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | 'Ethanol is alcohol, and alcohol is “hygroscopic,” which means it attracts water molecules. Since nearly all boat fuel tanks are vented to the atmosphere, water can (and will) collect in your fuel. When the concentration of water molecules in your fuel tank reaches just ½ of 1%, the water molecules will bond with the alcohol and sink to the bottom, where your fuel pick up is. Depending on the amount of water ingested into your outboard, this can result in everything from running problems to catastrophic damage. Ethanol, being alcohol, is also a powerful solvent that can loosen debris in your fuel tank and all the tanks and lines it was in before it got to you. '
There is no way ethanol can phase separate in the fuel unless water is introduced through the system by leak or or evaporation, in which case you have a fuel system issue or are storing your ride in a very humid location for long periods of time. Additives do nothing to the ethanol in any way, they stabilize gasoline formulated to last a couple weeks before breaking down.
Additives that absorb water and a sold as 'fixing ethanol problems' are, in fact, alcohol also. Makes no sense at all...but most people do not think that through. Today's gasoline is formulated with several powerful and poisonous solvents, one that will actually dissolve rubber.
Ethanol at the e10 level would only present a problem if the fuel system is incredibly dirty and had never been run with ethanol. In that case, where did the deposits come from? How is that possible if ethanol free gasoline runs, stores, and ages without issues, and as advertised on the pumps, 'drives your engine clean'?
What was posted is basically propaganda, just follow the money from big oil to the NMMA to manufacturers...etc. They led a misinformation campaign over the new Unleaded 88 which basically stated the objection to allowing the blend is Americans are too stupid to read.
The water separator and any water in your fuel tank has to do with condensation and extended storage with a vented fuel system in wet conditions. With or without the ethanol, the water will be there if it's introduced. WITH ethanol, much of that amount is absorbed and burned off harmlessly. Without, it's there, and at the fuel pick up. That, at least, is truth.
Ethanol needs no stabilization. Think about it, leave a quart of gasoline in one container, and a quart of corn whiskey in another. See which one goes bad.
I travel the US and have never seen a gas station yet where e10 is not for sale. The 15% blend is called Unleaded 88, in association with the octane rating.
All but very old outboards will run e10 very well, and all engines of recent manufacture are designed to. Another consideration, since motorists will not by ethanol free fuel much; that fuel will sit in a tank for an extended period.
Note all the additives ADVERTISED by oil companies as solvents and cleaners in the gasoline they sell. Yet they rail against ethanol. There's your sign.
10% of the market is billions. Follow the money, and check out the Oklahoma State studies and many others done independently. e10 is the perfect fuel for your boat. | |
| | |
Posts: 32
Location: West Bend WI | What I do observe is the residue in my carbureted engines float bowls and carb body passages when corn gas is used. I do not have this residue when using non-ethanol gas. Same fuel tanks, hoses, and so forth. Given these engines are all older (before the ethanol fuels were mandated to create a new tax generating commodity market) I'll continue to use ethanol free fuel.
I do experience improved mileage and throttle response from real gas too. | |
| | |
Posts: 3469
Location: Elk River, Minnesota | patcampbell - 2/22/2019 7:35 PM
What I do observe is the residue in my carbureted engines float bowls and carb body passages when corn gas is used. I do not have this residue when using non-ethanol gas. Same fuel tanks, hoses, and so forth. Given these engines are all older (before the ethanol fuels were mandated to create a new tax generating commodity market) I'll continue to use ethanol free fuel.
I do experience improved mileage and throttle response from real gas too.
Hiya,
I would bet most likely, that residue you see is from the ethanol loosening gum, etc. in your tank, that is then getting run through your engine. Even if you empty your tank completely, there is fuel residue that remains, and it will eventually build up in your tank.
Steve | |
| | |
Posts: 32798
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | patcampbell - 2/22/2019 7:35 PM
What I do observe is the residue in my carbureted engines float bowls and carb body passages when corn gas is used. I do not have this residue when using non-ethanol gas. Same fuel tanks, hoses, and so forth. Given these engines are all older (before the ethanol fuels were mandated to create a new tax generating commodity market) I'll continue to use ethanol free fuel.
I do experience improved mileage and throttle response from real gas too.
Obviously, engines built before ethanol are not designed to use e10 and that was stated above. The residue you see is probably gunk the ethanol is cleaning out. There's no appreciable difference in today's fuels in fuel line deterioration between e10 and non enriched fuels. (Oklahoma State study et al)
Line soaked in both fuels behaved the same.
'Real gas' as we had it when your engine was built is no longer available, not even close. | |
| | |
Location: 31 | Almost everything in this world has an answer that lies somewhere in between and therefore subject to interpretation, IMHO there is not a 100% right/wrong e10 vs ethanol free answer for our OB motors here.
At pretty much opposite ends of the spectrum you have a guy like me who has had many fuel and fuel system related problems (including catastrophic failures), and a guy like VMS who apparently has never really had any serious issues.
I thought SteveW put forth a very convincing argument. However, he chooses to believe Oklahoma States position, while I choose to follow Yamaha's guidance. No problem there but I also don't feel comfortable with “looking for signs” or “following the money” as a basis to help make decisions when it comes to something as important and expensive as my outboard motors.
“There is no way ethanol can phase separate in the fuel unless water is introduced through the system by leak or evaporation, in which case you have a fuel system issue or are storing your ride in a very humid location for long periods of time.”
Is the second 1/2 of this quote true or false?
I happen to live in an area that at times can be incredibly humid, I also store and of course operate my boat in a humid/wet environment. My boat can (and does) sit in this same humid environment for months at a time.
Now, I don't like spending money that's not necessary any more than the next guy, but just the fact that ethanol attracts water and I've had so many bad experiences with fuel problems looms very large for me.
Some other contributing factors that have helped me to make this decision are that Yamaha recommends a minimum octane rating of 89 and the 91 ethanol free premium is closely priced, and readily available at high turnover locations for me.
| |
| | |
Posts: 3469
Location: Elk River, Minnesota | Hi Jerry,
You and I both know we have seen the conversation of what fuel is best to use many many many times over on this site and on many others.
I will admit, I have been very very fortunate with the outboards in my family with the only issues coming up with my father's older 1985 mercury 50hp he had. He'd use it for a big trip right after school was out, but then the boat would sit until fall...no stabilization to the fuel, so he had multiple trips to the repair shop to rebuild carbs. What is goofy is years before, he would always run the fuel out of his engines before pulling them after a trip, and never had an issue. His 1973 20hp has only been rebuilt one time, and the only other issue with that motor was in 1983 when he had to send it in for new points. I follow this procedure for my carbed kicker motor and it runs really well. My main motor, though, I stabilize the fuel for the last tank of the season and then when I store the motor, it's all set to go. I've been doing that for the last 20 years with no issue up to this point and I just changed over from a carbed main motor last year.
I really think the key issue is proper maintenance of our engines... I run both 87 and 91 octane at times...many times run 91 because I like how the engine runs on it...it just runs smoother because the fuel is just that less volatile than 87 octane and even though I may not notice any HP difference, I do understand it has a better output than the E10. That is definitely not a knock against 87 E10 octane as I usually will run that on a trip because in a week I'll burn through 80 - 100 gallons of fuel and that can be a significant savings on the trip.
I do feel that everyone makes their decisions based on personal experiences and your's is unique to you as are mine to me. I would never say one is wrong or right...it's just what we have had to deal with and we adjust what we do accordingly. And I do think you are right...it's all somewhere in the middle and we can find arguments in both directions which are most likely biased for a reason to lead us one way or another...that is the power of statistics...You can get statistics to pretty much say anything you want regardless of how objective the tests might be.
I think the biggest issue overall is proper maintenance and with it....the engines usually will not have issues. Now and again, I think we all can run into a bad batch of fuel from a station for whatever reason, and no doubt it can be very costly, and no way to tie it to a particular station, and it can definitely affect our decisions going forward.
So long as our engines don't sit for a long long time, things "should" be good to go, but if it sits any longer, I will stabilize regardless if people say I would need to or not. I do it for peace of mind, and if that is what it takes for me to feel positive for my engines to stay in top running condition, I'll do it. I think the small fee for a little stabil or seafoam is well worth it rather than a costly tear down and rebuild of a fuel system.
A good filter system (including fuel water separation), stabilization as one sees fit, and just overall using our motors consistently are the key elements to keeping things running well.. All my opinion, though going off of my own personal experiences.
Steve
| |
| | |
Posts: 32798
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Jerry Newman - 2/24/2019 3:23 PM
Almost everything in this world has an answer that lies somewhere in between and therefore subject to interpretation, IMHO there is not a 100% right/wrong e10 vs ethanol free answer for our OB motors here.
At pretty much opposite ends of the spectrum you have a guy like me who has had many fuel and fuel system related problems (including catastrophic failures), and a guy like VMS who apparently has never really had any serious issues.
I thought SteveW put forth a very convincing argument. However, he chooses to believe Oklahoma States position, while I choose to follow Yamaha's guidance. No problem there but I also don't feel comfortable with “looking for signs” or “following the money” as a basis to help make decisions when it comes to something as important and expensive as my outboard motors.
“There is no way ethanol can phase separate in the fuel unless water is introduced through the system by leak or evaporation, in which case you have a fuel system issue or are storing your ride in a very humid location for long periods of time.”
Is the second 1/2 of this quote true or false?
I happen to live in an area that at times can be incredibly humid, I also store and of course operate my boat in a humid/wet environment. My boat can (and does) sit in this same humid environment for months at a time.
Now, I don't like spending money that's not necessary any more than the next guy, but just the fact that ethanol attracts water and I've had so many bad experiences with fuel problems looms very large for me.
Some other contributing factors that have helped me to make this decision are that Yamaha recommends a minimum octane rating of 89 and the 91 ethanol free premium is closely priced, and readily available at high turnover locations for me.
I was really waiting for that to come. Where will the water go that enters your system from condensation or fuel system error using non ethanol fuel? Same place, bottom of the tank, and then right into your fuel line, only 100% will be ingested by your engine W/O a fuel/water separator. Once again, it's scientifically impossible for ethanol to phase separate on it's own, a significant amount of water needs to be introduced. If water occurs in a fuel system using ethanol enriched fuel, it's from tank condensation or a fuel system issue, not ethanol. And if additives are used to keep water out of the tank, all you are doing is adding the very 'fix' you are worried about. We interviewed a mechanic in a highly respected Ranger BPS dealership in the South where boats are operated 12 months out of the year. He had, over a couple decades, not seen ANY engine problems created by e10 in engines designed to run the fuel. The problem is folks do not understand what happened to their 'grandpa's gasoline' today.
Study what's actually IN that non-oxygenated fuel and you will be shocked what it takes to get that octane rating up there W/O ethanol, and what each of the chemicals used can do to your engine's hoses, etc. It ain't just refined petro, not by a long shot. Educate one's self in detail, and one finds that the 'warnings' regarding e10 in later model outboard engines are not based in fact, and actually support an entire industry manufacturing bottles labeled with 'fixes ethanol problems'... ripping off uninformed consumers. Also, make sure you stabilize any non ethanol fuel or ethanol enhanced fuel to be stored in your boat gas tank for long periods of time for the reasons already stated. Run what one wishes to run, but the simple fact is e10 is approved for use in every outboard built for US use that is powered by gasoline. In some states, e10 is mandated. No engine company in it's right capitalistic mind will want to lose those sales building an engine that won't efficiently run e10. Remember the old stickers during the changeover to e10, 'This Engine Not to be sold in California'? Don't see those on any engine crate these days. As 4 stroke outboard engines take more and more market share, the argument becomes nothing more than how long unstabilized EPA approved fuel will last before beginning to break down and what to do about it. That's where the argument actually is today.
| |
| | |
Posts: 3469
Location: Elk River, Minnesota | Hiya,
Doing a quick search, E10 can hold up to .5% water (the alcohol absorbs it up to .5%).
This would mean a gallon of E10 can hold .005 gal of water, or about .64 ounces of water (a touch over a tablespoon). On a 10 gallon tank, this would be 6.4 ounces of water which to give some perspective to it, is just under one cup of water, or a touch over 4 shot glasses full of water.
To be honest...that is a LOT of water being absorbed. Anything above the .5% and the fuel will show separation as the alcohol bonds better with water than it does with gasoline, and will continue to absorb water. But...this is a lot of water....a LOT
Not going to make any argument one way or another, but i would think even in the most extreme situation of humidity, gaining an ounce of water in a tank that holds even 6 gallons will not be affected as it is run through the engine...
I will continue to run both, but I do think after some more research that going E10 might be the safest method as 91 octane can and may very well sit for a long period of time in a tank...and...I would assume the pick up line for the pump at the station is drawing from the bottom of the tank as well, where if the fuel sits for a long period of time could get quite a few contaminants in it...water included. Thus...being pumped right into your own tank.
Something to maybe think about a bit...
Steve
Edited by VMS 2/25/2019 4:06 PM
| |
| | |
Posts: 32798
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Water has to get in there first. Ethanol won't cause the water to appear or 'attract' water into the fuel, that's propaganda. It has to be introduced somewhere. If introduced: Unlike regular gasoline, which can absorb almost no moisture, E-10 can hold up to ½ percent of water by volume, and the water molecules will dissolve in the fuel. The solubilized water will bypass a water separator and burn harmlessly through the engine.
One needs to consider how much 'humidity' can even get to the tank though the vent and how much surface area in the tank is exposed to condensation, if any. When storing your boat, the tank should be full, not near empty as some claim.
Condensation and gasoline breakdown is your enemy over time, not ethanol.
Ethanol is hygroscopic, which means if water molecules contact the ethanol molecule, it will be absorbed by the ethanol, but it is in no way attracting the water.
https://www.theautochannel.com/news/2016/03/18/209988-ethanol-does-n...
Again, ethanol can't phase separate on it's own and only will if more water than can be absorbed is introduced. That, as you stated is a LOT of water and is not likely at all. Without the ethanol, almost all water introduced will end up at the bottom of the tank.
Most fuel based performance issues are caused by gasoline breaking down as it ages, and it isn't ethanol causing that. There are as many as 108 other additives to gasoline regardless if it's ethanol enriched or not.
Crib to death on a gallon of gas here is about two weeks if I remember correctly, ask your favorite gas station cash register attendant how often each tank gets filled up. Oil companies refine what we call gasoline today accordingly.
Millions of vehicles run flawlessly on e10 every day of every year around the globe. | |
| | |
Posts: 3469
Location: Elk River, Minnesota | Thinking of condensation....
I would tend to think that would be awfully hard to obtain in a fuel tank in humid conditions even, unless like Steve Worrall stated being introduced somehow...
My mind wanders here and there as I get older and I started thinking of where condensation forms on a window in winter or on a glass of cold water. It forms on the warm side of the glass.... So...for this to occur inside of a fuel tank the tank would have to be the warmer environment than the surrounding air on the outside...And....as Steve Worrall stated, the tank would not be full for this to occur.....And...the temperature and humidity change from one environment to the other would have to be extreme...
Most of our bigger rigs out there have a tank that is below decking of some sort, so it will stay cooler than the air surrounding it (up to a point I am sure...) which in most cases means the tank interior will always be the cooler than the surrounding air. There's a lot of heat needed to warm up all of the fuel contained in an interior tank of a boat, then somehow expose that tank to a cold environment to where condensation could form.
This is also why I suspect they put our fuel reservoirs under the ground at gas stations beyond being safer for spills, etc. The ground is a very stable temperature after the first foot or so, and most tanks I would bet are below any sort of frost line, thus, the tank stays at a constant temperature. The ground cannot heat up very fast, so things stay consistent... Water would have to be introduced to the tank for water to get in.
On an external 6 gallon tank this could definitely go the the other way given a full day of sun on the water and then putting the tank in a cold garage..but again, that would have to be a very very major difference in temperature for that to happen.
Think about it...for those of you who wear glasses, how often is it that when you walk INSIDE of a building your glasses fog up?
Steve
Edited by VMS 2/26/2019 8:12 AM
| |
| | |
Location: 31 | This has definitely been the best and most informative e10 versus ethanol free thread for me… I learned some new things. I made an error in wording when I said that ethanol can “attract” water. Hopefully we can agree that water in fuel is not a good thing, and the millions of vehicles that run flawlessly on e10 every day "might not" be as relevant as this would imply for our boats that sit for months at a time.
Will that said: I like Steve's idea on asking the gas station attendant how often they refill their storage tanks. I also thought that VMS made some excellent points on temperature condensation, as well as one of the reasons why fuel is stored underground. IMHO, although the underground tanks are supposed to be 100% sealed, as are the trucks that deliver them… these are also controlled by mistake prone humans.
Regarding additives; for the most part I only use the Yamaha RingFree to help reduce carbon buildup, and do not use any other additives on a regular basis. Although it was originally developed for marine 2 cycle engines, it's supposed to still do an excellent job of de-bonding carbon deposits in the 4 strokes too (carbon buildup is much different in outboards than automobiles due to the difference in combustion temperatures). Anyway, other than possibly being brainwashed by Yamaha, I still think that this RingFree stuff is beneficial for both motors, especially for the 15hp which is almost exclusively run in the mid-level RPM range while trolling.
For the record; I'm definitely more fearful of getting a bad load of gas than having the e10 retain water from humidity now. However, I'm still going to be targeting newer gas stations that have a high turnover rate and the non-ethanol premium, with a preference for the 93 octane rating to help combat the loss of octane and damaging effects extended periods of non-use can have.
Edited by Jerry Newman 3/1/2019 5:36 PM
| |
| | |
Location: 31 | I read and reread the different ethanol debates here and on-line, and thanks to Steve and Steve and a little more research I'll no longer have any issues with running the E10 in my boat. Thank you!
Old habits are hard to break and I'll probably still lean towards the more stable high octane EO for winter storage though. With that said; because I've been using the EO exclusively, I'm going to wait until it's almost filter service time before running a couple of tanks of the E10 in case the ethanol loosens up some gunk.
I thought this was one of the better statements I ran across - cheers!
“E10 is certainly not as trouble-free as E0, especially the first few tankfulls. But for newer engines, those built after about 1991, there's no reason the initial problems can't be overcome. No less an authority than Mercury Marine says, "After the transition period from E0, E10 may actually be a superior marine fuel as it tends to keep low levels of water moving through the fuel system, keeping the system 'dry.'"
The Ethanol Debate - Seaworthy Magazine - BoatUS
Forget To Winterize Your Fuel - Trailering - BoatUS Magazine
Three Ethanol Myths Clarified - BoatUS Magazine
| |
| | |
Posts: 3469
Location: Elk River, Minnesota | Hi Jerry,
Wanting to make sure I'm reading the following statement correctly..."E10 is not as trouble free as e0 especially for the first few tankfuls"...
If I'm understanding the statement here, the authors are making a point about when a switch from e0 to e10 is made in any engine that has been run on e0 only, the initial problems of gumming up a carb or intake might occur as the first few tankfuls would loosen all the "stuff" that e0 leaves behind. Once that is done, then the engine is running cleaner, and stays cleaner.
To everyone who is reading this thread... I'd suggest keeping a couple of things in mind if and when a transition to e10 is made.. Run a tank with seafoam through your engine to help get the cleaning process going. This will also stabilize your fuel if things sit for a while as well...
Run the tank down as far as you feel comfortable doing, then fill it up with e10, then go about your normal use... Carry an extra fuel filter along just in case you get some stuff to let loose and you need to replace a filter. After a while, you will be good to go and have a much cleaner running engine.
You may want to consider replacing spark plugs as well if for no other reason than for preventative maintenance. Heavy carbon (common in carbed 2 strokes) can foul plugs, but for many engines, plugs are cheap insurance. I know some motors it's a bit of an expense too and may not be the best money spent so I get not replacing plugs that might cost you an arm and a leg...
I also suggest going to a synthetic oil for 2 strokes as well. They do not smoke anywhere near as much as conventional 2 stroke oil, so you aren't breathing in so many fumes as many people experience with carbed 2 strokes. Not as many out there these days, but they still exist yet.
Overall, the big issue for everyone is proper maintenance. If the boat is going to sit for a while, stabilize the fuel... THAT will keep your engine from having fuel issues...
Steve
| |
| | |
Location: 31 | Yes, well stated as always Steve! As you know the E10s ethanol is a potent solvent. However, with today's blended fuels… for all I know the E0 I’ve been using (mostly from shell), has some type of additive that works along the same lines to "clean your engine". I'd guess that I'm in a very low percentage here having only used the E0 in my current boat, so most reading this probably do not need to be that concerned about it.
As an aside: I'm pretty sure that a load of bad resort gas cost me a motor in the late 80s while fishing from the Angle LOTW area. I can also remember having to fill my boat up with their 5 gallon cans from the resort in Moore Bay in the early 90s because they did not have a storage tank. I didn't know enough about using a water separator filter at the time but remember being so nervous about those 5 gallon cans... I was changing out a special inline glass filter I had installed just before the motor like crazy. So yeah agree that carrying extra fuel and water separator filters is simply good due diligence while we travel about.
Steve, this is probably not said often enough; I think you are an awesome asset to M1st! Thanks again!
Edited by Jerry Newman 3/27/2019 2:13 PM
| |
| | |
Posts: 267
| I've noticed when docked at a resort when staying overnite, that, in the morning, the entire boat can be covered in condensation. Could that condensation be present in the fueling hose/vent system as well? | |
| | |
Posts: 32798
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | In a very limited amount, as available air exchange is very low, and should be, with today's fuel systems, low. If there is any, E10 is your friend! | |
| | |
Location: Eastern Ontario | The manual for my Suzuki 115 (2012 ) Suzuki recommends alcohol free unleaded gasoline with a minimum octane rating of 91
The manual for my Suzuki 20 kicker (2017 ) Suzuki recommends alcohol free unleaded gasoline whenever possible with a minimum octane rating of 87
Suzuki does state that up to 10% ethanol will not void waranty but no gas containing methanol is to be used.
On the Larry a lot of us leave our boats docked in a marina and I have never encountered a marina selling anything other than 91 octane ethanol free fuel.
Edited by horsehunter 3/27/2019 2:45 PM
| |
| | |
Posts: 32798
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | What is the difference between the build of a 4 stroke outboard and a 4 stroke automobile powerhead?
All modern engines are built to meet EPA requirements and therefore are built to run E10. One way to find out whether that applies to your year and model engine is to see if it was legal to sell in California on it's build date. | |
| | |
Posts: 3469
Location: Elk River, Minnesota | Hiya,
Agree with Steve Worrall here. E10 has been around for a long time and so have 4 stroke outboards now. They have been built to meet clean air requirements and will run very well and very cleanly.
Mechanically, the engines as Steve mentioned are the same...injection systems are the up and coming systems that will be changing in 4 stroke technology as we are seeing with direct injection on automobiles...it is only a matter of time before that technology will come to outboards. At that point, there will be some issues to deal with, but it will NOT be due to E10 fuel...it will have to do with how the crankcase is equalized for pressure.
Example: New Direct injection systems inject fuel directly into the combustion chamber bypassing the intake valves. These engines then have to have the pressure equalized through the PCV system, which sends crankcase air back to the combustion chamber...which goes directly through the valve train system. The air coming through will carry oil vapors, which over time will cake onto the valves (called "coking"). This happens because there is no fuel flowing over the intake valves to essentially "wash" them off. Inevitably, this will lead to a tear down of the valve train to scrub and clean, unless there is a "catch can" system in place to significantly reduce oil vapors.
Currently, I don't believe this is an issue at this point...
No matter what your owners manual recommends, E10 is THE way to go...for clean burning, clean running engine.
Steve | |
| | |
Location: Eastern Ontario | So are you saying to disregard Suzuki's minimum 91 octane requirement. All oft the e10 I have ever seen in Canada is 87 or 88 octane and have never seen ethanol in the gas at a marina. | |
| | |
Posts: 3469
Location: Elk River, Minnesota | Hiya,
This information is coming from the Suzuki owners manual dated April of 2006. It is located at the top left corner of the manual on page 3 of the manual itself...or page of the PDF document. I have the PDF downloaded, but it is too big to upload here. If you would like a copy of it, please feel free to PM me with an email address and I will gladly send it to you...
"Suzuki highly recommends that you use alcohol-free unleaded gasoline whenever possible, with a minimum octane rating of 87. In some areas the only fuels that are available are oxygenated fuels. Oxygenated fuels which meet the minimum requirement and the requirements described below may be used in your outboard motor without jeopardizing the New Outboard Motor Limited Warranty"
Any motor made after this I believe would also fall under this same requirement, so you are safe running 87 octane (90 RON) E10 fuel as stated directly in the manual. If your motor requires 91 octane as a minimum, you can run E10 92 octane and be fine. My gut says 87 will be the minimum.
I also downloaded the 150/175 and the 90hp manuals from 2012 and they have the same overall statements.
As for the gas at marinas, you are tied to what they have if you are in need to purchase. Many marinas might very well be falling into the same false information the oil companies want you to believe... They get what the people desire and from the propaganda they receive or as I would suspect in some cases perceive...
Don't worry my friend....your motor is designed to run E10...you will be perfectly fine...
Mix it up if you have to, but if E10 is available, I would not hesitate at all to use it.... Think about it...if you are in a wet environment and a touch of water gets into your tank...the E10 will get it through your system without any issue... Non-oxygenated fuel CANNOT do that...
Steve
Edited by VMS 3/27/2019 10:38 PM
| |
| | |
Location: Eastern Ontario | So i wonder if Canadian and American manuals are different my information comes from the manuals that came with the motors. Can't say I have ever heard of oxygenated gas or 92e10. Going to go into the local fuel distributor this morning and find out exactly what's in it. I do know that all the gas sold locally ( huge area ) comes up the Imperial Oil pipeline to the tank farm where all distributors pick it up in tank trucks for delivery to retailers . So no mater what brand or non branded gas you buy it's basically the same . I understand any additives are mixed in the truck as it is loading for final delivery.
I also slightly know the owner of a fleet of tank trucks ( a fisherman ) if he is in the office today I will see what he has to say about fuel. I know at one time he told me to buy my 91 octane at high volume branded stations as some of his drivers had been offered cash to put 87 in the 91 tank. | |
| | |
Posts: 410
Location: With my son on the water | I am no expert but. What I was told it is not a matter if today’s outboards will run with E10 gas, they will very well.
But it’s a matter that they can cause issues stored in the boat tank because the alcohol can absorb moisture. Boats unlike cars don’t run the volume of fuel, don’t have the tanks emptied and refill at as high of frequency as a car, and most of the time sit unused for 6 months or more.
For me this post is getting long, technically complected, and confusing. Maybe I am not very smart. But I am honestly not sure now what to use?
Can anyone clarify exactly what’s the correct fuel to use? | |
| | |
Posts: 246
| Great subject and discussion. It leads me to a question, I was told that when I run gas with the alcohol added that I need to add Star Brite type fuel additive. I am now wondering if this is really necessary. If this is too off topic, please let me know and I can start another thread. Thanks.
Steve | |
| | |
Posts: 3469
Location: Elk River, Minnesota | btfish - 3/28/2019 7:41 AM
I am no expert but. What I was told it is not a matter if today’s outboards will run with E10 gas, they will very well.
But it’s a matter that they can cause issues stored in the boat tank because the alcohol can absorb moisture. Boats unlike cars don’t run the volume of fuel, don’t have the tanks emptied and refill at as high of frequency as a car, and most of the time sit unused for 6 months or more.
For me this post is getting long, technically complected, and confusing. Maybe I am not very smart. But I am honestly not sure now what to use?
Can anyone clarify exactly what’s the correct fuel to use?
Good Morning!!
Earlier in this thread an example was used about the water bonding with alcohol... In a 10 gallon tank, you would need to have a lot of water added to your tank of fuel (about a half cup of water) before any sort of issues would come up with separation of fluids. THAT is a bunch of water in your tank and for that amount to get in, it would somehow have to be externally introduced like leaving a gas cap off while on the water or during a huge rain storm. On some of our boats these days with 50 gallon tanks...that equates to around 2-1/2 cups of water in your tank... over a PINT!! That is just not going to happen without external introduction...
The fact that the alcohol bonds with any water intrusion is a GOOD THING!! that bond will allow the water to go right through the combustion chamber and right out your exhaust with no issues.
So...storage of ethanol fuel is actually THE BETTER option because of this bonding that takes place. There will NEVER be a condition that would allow that much water to be introduced to your fuel tank while stored... The internal portion of the tank is not exposed to air (dew in the mornings for example), and condensation would be so minimal, the alcohol in the tank bonds with it...keeping it from settling out and the fuel from separating.
Non-oxygenated fuel CANNOT bond with water...thus the water settles to the bottom of your tank, goes right in your fuel inlet to the motor..THAT is when you have problems...and that is with ANY amount of water...
Regardless of what fuel you choose to run, any storage situation should ALWAYS involve using a stabilizer of some sort. Sea Foam is a great product for this, as is STABIL, or any other brand of fuel stabilizer. We add those things to maintain the Octane level in the fuel... And guess what their main ingredient is in the can....ALCOHOL!!
E10 is a superior fuel for your tank and your engine.... Although non-oxy 91 octane might get you a very tiny amount of extra HP, you run a much higher risk of old fuel, and unless you are running some sort of stabilizing agent in it with said alcohol, you run a much higher risk of water issues, even though that risk is very small to begin with...
Steve
Edited by VMS 3/28/2019 8:31 AM
| |
| | |
Posts: 3469
Location: Elk River, Minnesota | Muskie Junkie - 3/28/2019 7:48 AM
Great subject and discussion. It leads me to a question, I was told that when I run gas with the alcohol added that I need to add Star Brite type fuel additive. I am now wondering if this is really necessary. If this is too off topic, please let me know and I can start another thread. Thanks.
Steve
Hiya,
The fuel additive is only needed if your boat will be sitting for long lengths of time....it most likely has the stabilizing agents in it to prevent the fuel from losing octane. It will have nothing to do with water issues...
Steve | |
| | |
Location: Eastern Ontario | So I went into the local fuel distributor and basiclly in Canada we have 2 types of gasoline 87 octane which contains 10% ethanol and 91 octane which contains no ethanol except for some Petro Canada stations that offer a boosted 94 octane that sells for about 15 cents a liter more than 91. All fuel in the area comes from the Imperial terminal regardless of brand. In Kingston Ont and surrounding area where I berth my boat all fuel comes from a Shell pipeline and terminal. I ws correct in saying additives are mixed in the tank truck. When I asked why there was a filter on the 87 octane pump and not the 91 i was told it was mandated by the government and when they first went to ethanol it would plug in a day with everything loosened from the system but now the filters last a couple of months. Apparently e92 and oxygenated fuel is only sold in the states.
So because I have been using without problems alcohol free 91 octane as is highly recommended in the Canadian Manual that came with my main motor that is what I will continue to do. I will continue to start adding Stabil to my gas starting around Oct. I run both motors through a water separating filter and and have never seen any evidence of water in the fuel.
When i said that i thought that ethanol in the fuel was only a gift to the farm lobby Brian said he wouldn't get into that but I wasn't too far off the mark.
Edited by horsehunter 3/28/2019 9:37 AM
| |
| | |
Posts: 3469
Location: Elk River, Minnesota | horsehunter - 3/28/2019 9:32 AM
So I went into the local fuel distributor and basiclly in Canada we have 2 types of gasoline 87 octane which contains 10% ethanol and 91 octane which contains no ethanol except for some Petro Canada stations that offer a boosted 94 octane that sells for about 15 cents a liter more than 91. All fuel in the area comes from the Imperial terminal regardless of brand. In Kingston Ont and surrounding area where I berth my boat all fuel comes from a Shell pipeline and terminal. I ws correct in saying additives are mixed in the tank truck. When I asked why there was a filter on the 87 octane pump and not the 91 i was told it was mandated by the government and when they first went to ethanol it would plug in a day with everything loosened from the system but now the filters last a couple of months. Apparently e92 and oxygenated fuel is only sold in the states.
So because I have been using without problems alcohol free 91 octane as is highly recommended in the Canadian Manual that came with my main motor that is what I will continue to do. I will continue to start adding Stabil to my gas starting around Oct. I run both motors through a water separating filter and and have never seen any evidence of water in the fuel.
When i said that i thought that ethanol in the fuel was only a gift to the farm lobby Brian said he wouldn't get into that but I wasn't too far off the mark.
I did find it interesting that they stated for the first few times, the tank filters at the pump would need to be changed often, but now every couple of months....
How often do they have to change the filters on the non-oxygenated tanks?
And...if you read the whole thread.. the oil companies have been doing everything they can to get people to "buy into" staying with pure gasoline as that is a huge amount of money in THEIR pockets as well...even getting outboard manufacturing companies to buy into their line... Follow the money as Steve Worrall stated... the paper trail will be there...
Ethanol is less expensive to produce, and less expensive for the consumer... WIN WIN for the consumer and less money to big oil who already put us over a barrel the way it is now...and it puts more money into the hands of hard working farmers of our respective countries.
and...Consider what Jerry Newman said earlier in this thread...he got a batch of bad gas at a resort...where the fuel sits in a tank on an island and if it wasn't stabilized, could sit there for a long, long, time... would you put that in your tank even though it is 91 octane?
If you choose to stay with 91 octane, that's great...you are having no issues with it, as are many many others... so long as it is fresh fuel, you most likely will not have any issues with it and all will be fine.
Edited by VMS 3/28/2019 10:59 AM
| |
| | |
Location: Eastern Ontario | Talking to a friend who owns local Yamaha dealership, manual for outboards which he brings in directly from Japan (better price) call for 91 octane alcohol free. Manual for ATV's built in the states allow for e87.
Steve: the 91 octane pumps have no filter.
Steve shouldn't you be helping some kid figure out if Johnny had 2 apples and Billy had 5 plums how many peaches Mary has;-)
Edited by horsehunter 3/28/2019 11:40 AM
| |
| | |
Location: Eastern Ontario | X peaches | |
| | |
Posts: 3469
Location: Elk River, Minnesota | horsehunter - 3/28/2019 11:38 AM
Talking to a friend who owns local Yamaha dealership, manual for outboards which he brings in directly from Japan (better price) call for 91 octane alcohol free. Manual for ATV's built in the states allow for e87.
Steve: the 91 octane pumps have no filter.
Steve shouldn't you be helping some kid figure out if Johnny had 2 apples and Billy had 5 plums how many peaches Mary has;-)
My kids are testing on this very subject today. They have not figured out yet that Mary has Oranges and lives in Florida.
| |
| | |
Posts: 32798
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | horsehunter - 3/28/2019 9:32 AM
So I went into the local fuel distributor and basiclly in Canada we have 2 types of gasoline 87 octane which contains 10% ethanol and 91 octane which contains no ethanol except for some Petro Canada stations that offer a boosted 94 octane that sells for about 15 cents a liter more than 91. All fuel in the area comes from the Imperial terminal regardless of brand. In Kingston Ont and surrounding area where I berth my boat all fuel comes from a Shell pipeline and terminal. I ws correct in saying additives are mixed in the tank truck. When I asked why there was a filter on the 87 octane pump and not the 91 i was told it was mandated by the government and when they first went to ethanol it would plug in a day with everything loosened from the system but now the filters last a couple of months. Apparently e92 and oxygenated fuel is only sold in the states.
So because I have been using without problems alcohol free 91 octane as is highly recommended in the Canadian Manual that came with my main motor that is what I will continue to do. I will continue to start adding Stabil to my gas starting around Oct. I run both motors through a water separating filter and and have never seen any evidence of water in the fuel.
When i said that i thought that ethanol in the fuel was only a gift to the farm lobby Brian said he wouldn't get into that but I wasn't too far off the mark.
Actually, that's propaganda from the oil companies and the shocker, I am sure, is it's about market share and profits. I know quite a few folks who refused or didn't take the time to look at the facts and believe there's some less than truthful stuff spread around. I just took the time and did the due diligence to figure out the who of it. Facts are if you have an engine that was built in the last two decades it's designed to run on e10 and for good reason...it's cleaner.
Use whatever you wish, but stabilize it. Shelf life on today's gasoline is a few weeks.
'When I asked why there was a filter on the 87 octane pump and not the 91 i was told it was mandated by the government and when they first went to ethanol it would plug in a day with everything loosened from the system but now the filters last a couple of months. Apparently e92 and oxygenated fuel is only sold in the states. '
So it's clear all that gunk was caused by the non-oxygenated fuel, or there would have been nothing for the e10 to begin cleaning out. And the 'system' is a tank, a fill port, and the pumps. Nothing too complicated.
| |
| | |
Posts: 93
| So at 10% ethanol everything is wonderful for a boat. Even better than pure gas!
But at 15% ethanol it may cause damage and is Federally prohinited for a boat.
That last 5% is a killer...
(PSX_20190330_173159.jpg)
Attachments
----------------
PSX_20190330_173159.jpg (25KB - 299 downloads)
| |
| | |
| E10 fuels are fine. The problem is phase separation. It is why marine engines have water separation fuel filters. You dont see these on cars. The marine environment promotes water contamination in fuel tanks. Constant temp changes and wet environments cause condensation. .5% water will cause phase separation at 60 degrees. This number drops when it gets colder. Most fuel contains some water and it varies. It may not take much in a marine environment to get to the separation point. Be careful and check your filters especially when buying fuel from above ground tanks like LOTW. They have filters on their tanks too. For water.
I would highly suggest a search on fuel phase separation for all and watch how phase separation occurs and why. Controlled E10 fuels are perfectly safe but they are not all controlled. Fuel cleanliness varies from station to station and tank to tank. Ethanol content can not exceed 10% but it can vary anywhere from 0-10%. Water in these fuel also varies. It does not take much water to contaminate fuel. When phase separation occurs both the ethanol and water separate together from the gas leaving the gasoline at a much lower octane rating. Both the ethanol/water and the gasoline in phase separation are bad and can quickly destroy an engine.
Be careful.
Edited by 4amuskie 3/31/2019 7:03 AM
| |
| | |
Posts: 1516
| I use the 10 0/0 ethanol here in Iowa and when I get yo Mn used non-oxy fuel also use a can of Stabile per cans directions each time I add gas. So far no problems | |
| | |
Location: Eastern Ontario | sworrall - 3/30/2019 12:03 AM
So it's clear all that gunk was caused by the non-oxygenated fuel, or there would have been nothing for the e10 to begin cleaning out. And the 'system' is a tank, a fill port, and the pumps. Nothing too complicated.
Watch the tanker driver drag the hose and fill nozzel across the ground and through the snow same with the guy that delivers your furnace oil the truck winds up the hose dragging it across the ground and why the filter on my oil tank was changed every fall.Some of those underground tanks have been in the groung 40 or more years and they are just getting around to digging them up and replacing them with plastic or some sort of fiberglass now. Starting to see more and more above ground tanks. God only knows how old the tanks at the tank farm or refineries are.
My motors manual calls for a MINIMUM 91 octane in Ontario 91 contains no ethanol so I guess that's where I am.
Edited by horsehunter 3/31/2019 7:16 AM
| |
| | |
Posts: 32798
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | undersized - 3/30/2019 5:32 PM
So at 10% ethanol everything is wonderful for a boat. Even better than pure gas!
But at 15% ethanol it may cause damage and is Federally prohibited for a boat.
That last 5% is a killer...
OK, one total misconception at a time. There is absolutely no such thing at the pumps as 'pure gas'.
Look in into the politics regarding e15 carefully, who lobbied against it and why and who lobbied for it and why. As mentioned a few times, specifically follow the money. Then look at WHY that sticker is on the pump and why it changes seasonally, what it actually means to your automobile and small engine and why it's currently law. Don't take any one source for gospel, look at the science and reality, and wonder why it's OK for an automobile engine, 4 stroke, designed for e10 but not a 4 stroke engine on some other piece of machinery. | |
| | |
Posts: 32798
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | 4amuskie - 3/31/2019 5:00 AM
E10 fuels are fine. The problem is phase separation. It is why marine engines have water separation fuel filters. You dont see these on cars. The marine environment promotes water contamination in fuel tanks. Constant temp changes and wet environments cause condensation. .5% water will cause phase separation at 60 degrees. This number drops when it gets colder. Most fuel contains some water and it varies. It may not take much in a marine environment to get to the separation point. Be careful and check your filters especially when buying fuel from above ground tanks like LOTW. They have filters on their tanks too. For water.
I would highly suggest a search on fuel phase separation for all and watch how phase separation occurs and why. Controlled E10 fuels are perfectly safe but they are not all controlled. Fuel cleanliness varies from station to station and tank to tank. Ethanol content can not exceed 10% but it can vary anywhere from 0-10%. Water in these fuel also varies. It does not take much water to contaminate fuel. When phase separation occurs both the ethanol and water separate together from the gas leaving the gasoline at a much lower octane rating. Both the ethanol/water and the gasoline in phase separation are bad and can quickly destroy an engine.
Be careful.
Nope. It's literally impossible for e10 to absorb enough water to phase separate in your boat fuel tank and highly unlikely in any storage tank, see the other thread as to the science. That's total bunk and is propaganda, and you have the propaganda mixed together a bit.
Sure, introduce water into the fuel system from a malfunction, accident, or other anomaly in a large volume, and it's possible, but the e10 is your friend in that case as it will, once water contacts the ethanol, absorb and harmlessly burn it off until there's so much in the system to cause what you described as apparently commonplace. If you have ethanol free fuel and that amount of water is introduced, pure H20 has already been run through your cylinders and the damage from that already done.
In other words, un-mix your post using the science, and look at logic. Water in an ethanol free fuel tank ends up in it's pure form in your boat fuel tank, and all of it if you have the misfortune of being the first to fill up after water was introduced. And it would take very little in that tank opposed to an awful lot in the e10 tank. Keep in mind ethanol doesn't attract water in any way, and only absorbs water when it's introduced.
What does one add to fuel to take care of introduced water, according to the data sheet on the additives?
Alcohol.
What's one of the most stabil chemicals in today's gasoline? Ethanol.
What other chemicals are added to today's ethanol free gasoline that are corrosive and are solvents, cancer causing and dangerous? Once I get the complete list tomorrow from our gasoline expert source I'll post it. And it changes seasonally and regionally.
Today's fuel is good for a few weeks at best without stabilization, unlike the gasoline of the past. Your boat fuel's enemy is not ethanol, it's the fact the fuel is not lasting long at all before beginning to break down without stabilization, which is why may small engine manufacturers suggest a stabilizer be added, and most conveniently have one available and a crazy high price. Your boat fuel's biggest issue is age. Don't buy gasoline from low turnover tanks.
I've never seen a fuel/water separator on a resort fuel tank. Maybe I missed it. I'll take a look around next time I'm at a resort.
| |
| | |
| Propaganda??? Wow......Maybe you should ask some people at resorts with outside tanks. Ive never seen one without filters in my life. Ethanol is not their friend.
Edited by 4amuskie 3/31/2019 4:31 PM
| |
| | |
Posts: 3469
Location: Elk River, Minnesota | 4amuskie - 3/31/2019 4:11 PM
Propaganda??? Wow......Maybe you should ask some people at resorts with outside tanks. Ive never seen one without filters in my life. Ethanol is not their friend.
Yes...propaganda... Completely!! Oil is a Multi-BILLION dollar industry!! You really think the oil companies want to lose 10% or more of their business?!! They are working very very hard to put misinformation out there on how bad ethanol is. Ethanol is great!!
For it not being their friend at the resorts....that is at best a line of hookey!! The ONLY reason for it to be an issue is at the direct change-over to ethanol....it's going to clean out the entire tank of all residues, contaminants, etc. that is left behind from PURE GASOLINE.... Think about that off season storage....That tank with the remaining pure fuel is just sitting there...breaking down...sludge, low octane, etc...or even worse...All that condensation people keep talking about... THAT WATER IS AT THE BOTTOM OF EVERY RESROT TANK THAT IS RUNNING PURE GASOLINE... And...guess where that's going when you fill up there.... RIGHT INTO YOUR TANK!! You think that if condensation only forms with ethanol you are completely missing the entire point of this and the other thread.... The ethanol will bond with the water sending it right through your engine and out safely!!! Pure gasoline cannot do that!!
Earlier in the thread Horsehunter posted how the station tanks with E10 had fuel filters getting gummed up quickly, but now go a couple months without changing... BUT...the non-ethanol tanks are running WITHOUT a filter.... STOP AND THINK ABOUT THAT.... If that is not a red flag for people filling their tanks, you are running your own risk of any water, contaminants, gum that is at the BOTTOM OF THE TANK going INTO YOUR FUEL SYSTEM....
ETHANOL will get things clean and then IT KEEPS THINGS CLEAN!! There will be a short period where things do gum up filters due to the process!!! People need to trust science here... Science here and education is what teaches us to think and do things differently. Think about where we would be if we never started educating ourselves on catch and release...
| |
| | |
| Alrighty then......Iol | |
| | |
Posts: 32798
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | 4amuskie - 3/31/2019 4:11 PM
Propaganda??? Wow......Maybe you should ask some people at resorts with outside tanks. Ive never seen one without filters in my life. Ethanol is not their friend.
Why not? Was what I posted not accurate?
What are the filters on those tanks for? What solvents are in non ethanol fuel now? What about the fact that ethanol doesn't 'attract' water and just plain can't phase separate unless WAY more water is introduced than should ever happen in any tank or the point of what happens with water introduced to non-blended fuel? Where would that water come from and how would ethanol be anything but a benefit? And the OTC additives many think cure alcohol problems are actually...alcohol?
I expected folks to resist this because of what they've understood as reality for years. It took a bunch of reading and listening to unbiased scientists to educate me and change my mind, too. I'm not in any way belittling anyone's opinion, just presenting the facts.
| |
| | |
| Well I certainly never said ethanol wasn't a good cleaner. It also mixes well with gasoline and water. There is a big difference in boats and cars. Cars usually consume lots of fuel regularly. Boats not so much. Fuel sits for long periods in most boats. Fuel tanks can and will collect moisture through condensation. Cold air, warm water. Warm air, coldwater. They are also used in moist environments so susceptible to even more condensation.
This is why they have water separating filter. Almost all boats and marine engines have this. Even my 15hp does. So some one else besides me recognizes the potential for water in fuels in a marine environment unless this is propaganda too. So let's just say there is a slight chance this could happen to some one. Ethanol can hold water well but when it gets saturated it separates. Not just the water but both the ethanol and the water at the same time. This renders the water ethanol mix unusable. It also leaves the gasoline unusable since the ethanol is used to give it octane and has now been removed. You now have a complete tank of useless fuel.
When gasoline is contaminated with water the water separates. The water of course is useless. The gasoline is still good. The water is collected in the filter where it can be removed. The gas is still good. Not so with E10.
You can test this on your own if you want. Its called science and it works very well. You will need a test tube, e10 fuel and water. Makes sure you have something to give accurate measurements. You will find out how much water you can add before it separates. It will be .5% of the volume at 60 degrees depending on the ethanol content. Less the colder it gets. It could be even less if the fuel already has water in it. Its alot of fun and a good way to determine how much ethanol is in the fuel you are buying. Be careful though because its flammable.
I definitely think you should try the experiment. It's great science.
Have fun. | |
| | |
Posts: 32798
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | 4amuskie - 3/31/2019 6:15 PM
Well I certainly never said ethanol wasn't a good cleaner. It also mixes well with gasoline and water. There is a big difference in boats and cars. Cars usually consume lots of fuel regularly. Boats not so much. Fuel sits for long periods in most boats. Fuel tanks can and will collect moisture through condensation. Cold air, warm water. Warm air, coldwater. They are also used in moist environments so susceptible to even more condensation.
This is why they have water separating filter. Almost all boats and marine engines have this. Even my 15hp does. So some one else besides me recognizes the potential for water in fuels in a marine environment unless this is propaganda too. So let's just say there is a slight chance this could happen to some one. Ethanol can hold water well but when it gets saturated it separates. Not just the water but both the ethanol and the water at the same time. This renders the water ethanol mix unusable. It also leaves the gasoline unusable since the ethanol is used to give it octane and has now been removed. You now have a complete tank of useless fuel.
When gasoline is contaminated with water the water separates. The water of course is useless. The gasoline is still good. The water is collected in the filter where it can be removed. The gas is still good. Not so with E10.
You can test this on your own if you want. Its called science and it works very well. You will need a test tube, e10 fuel and water. Makes sure you have something to give accurate measurements. You will find out how much water you can add before it separates. It will be .5% of the volume at 60 degrees depending on the ethanol content. Less the colder it gets. It could be even less if the fuel already has water in it. Its alot of fun and a good way to determine how much ethanol is in the fuel you are buying. Be careful though because its flammable.
I definitely think you should try the experiment. It's great science.
Have fun.
Once again, the amount of water you are talking about is not even slightly likely without mechanical failure in your fuel system in which case your fuel/water filter if on board will tell you there is an issue that needs addressing. How much water have you been removing from your filter on a regular basis? If a lot, either your fuel source or your ride has issues. I'm betting it's not an issue, just like my boat, and I run e10 exclusively unless I am forced to run something else.
The air mass in the fuel system installed in an average boat won't contain the water vapor needed to create that much condensation, and would require a near empty fuel system to create any amount at all. The water/fuel filter on an outboard is there in case of an anomaly, and if you have water in the filter regularly, your fuel system is in need of attention or you are buying really...really old gas or gas from a source with water entering into the tank that should not be. If the fuel is that old to have standing water in it, it would not run well anyway.
Fuel as old as you suggest mine would be in my ride, if non-oxygenated, had better be stabilized or it also will not be high enough octane. The solvents and additives I discussed are there to increase octane and the resulting ethanol free blend is not stable at all. No fuel these days is. That's why engine manufacturers want you to use their propitiatory brand of gasoline additive regularly.
In the case of your experiment, use a fuel cell and the required fuel fill and EPA approved fill/vent system from an 18' boat as an 'average' and expose it to normal temperature swings while on the water with e 10 in the tank at the level one might expect would be the average. Then it would be relevant. It's been done already, by the way, which is why the EPA requires the fill/vent system that's standard equipment on boats. A working knowledge how that system works would help for sure.
| |
| | |
| Guess I'm calling Mercury for wasting money on these fuel filters. Thieves.
Always entertaining Steve. Always | |
| | |
Posts: 3469
Location: Elk River, Minnesota | 4amuskie - 3/31/2019 6:48 PM
Guess I'm calling Mercury for wasting money on these fuel filters. Thieves.
Always entertaining Steve. Always :)
That is only if you choose to throw it out... I pull mine each year, empty the fuel from it out the bottom and it's just fuel....I then take the filter off and dump everything out let it sit for a couple of hours... I have had absolutely no water...EVER in mine running E10 fuel. I then just reinstall the filter.... No cost to me...
As stated before...the ONLY way enough water would EVER get into your fuel system is if it is somehow EXTERNALLY INTRODUCED. Condensation would never be enough, and due to the system Steve Worrall is talking about, it would rarely ever happen... A 20 gallon tank would need the amount of a 12 ounce Pepsi to get close to being at a point it would phase separate due to the alcohol bonding with the water intrusion. There is ABSOLUTELY NO WAY that you would get that much condensation inside of a tank, surrounded by foam flotation, under 3/4" of plywood. AND...with the ambient air being WARMER than the air in your fuel tank in almost every situation, we will let physics do it's work. WARM AIR RISES MY FRIEND... It cannot travel DOWN a vent tube to an fuel tank no matter how humid it is outside...
You get water into a tank of Non oxy...its going right into your motor without that fuel water separator. Now stop and think about WHY THAT FILTER HAS BEEN INSTALLED..... It's there because if people decided NOT to use E10, they are doing what they can to PROTECT the engine. Again...not rocket science here....
Steve | |
| | |
| I had no idea you were really that serious about this. What's the deal. | |
| | |
Posts: 3469
Location: Elk River, Minnesota | Both Steve and I are serious about this... People are so misinformed... then they continue to put this misinformation out there as fact..The deal is people need to quit putting out misinformation and educate themselves about what is really going on with their fuel.
It's the reason this thread has made it to 3 pages, and now a 66th post because people keep trying to deny and punch holes in the benefits of E10....and they are walking themselves in circles.
The argument against ethanol is like proving 1 = 2 to a mathematics instructor....and yes...I've done this to my students to see if they can find the misdirection in the proof
Steve
Edited by VMS 3/31/2019 8:35 PM
| |
| | |
| And where does your expertise and knowledge come from may I ask | |
| | |
Posts: 32798
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | 4amuskie - 3/31/2019 6:48 PM
Guess I'm calling Mercury for wasting money on these fuel filters. Thieves.
Always entertaining Steve. Always :)
Who said they are a 'waste'? Also, just in case our discussion confuses anyone, a 'fuel filter' is not the same as a water/fuel separating fuel filter. See attached. Also, what's 'interesting' in this is any attempt to make it a personal argument. I'm simply providing facts when prompted by a claim or statement that calls for same.
You made a statement that called for editorial debate, which was provided. If you disagree with what was said, provide information that proves your point, maybe. That's what debate is all about, right? Nothing personal here, I can disagree with your statement without having a single issue with you personally. Better stated, I'm disagreeing with a statement OutdoorsFIRST published, not with you personally. It's my job, actually.
How did I learn about all this? Interviews, phone calls, and reading. A lot of all. Why? because of a political position an organization that I feel should not be politicking took on the 15% ethanol issue and OutdoorsFIRST was expected to publish that position as fact. When I was in the marine industry the companies I worked for paid them a lot of money to get organizational certification. I expected truth in practice from them and was frankly peeved after looking into the matter, so I finished educating myself on the subject and published both sides of the debate.
From Mercury Marine's website (full disclosure, OFM does work with Mercury Marine from time to time):
'Fuel Care Tips
Even more than the gas in your car, the gas in your boat needs special care to keep your engine running at peak performance. Gasoline begins to go bad within about two weeks. When left untreated, some of the fuel components begin to oxidize and form a gum-like substance. The substance settles in fuel lines and tanks, carburetors and injectors. When you try to burn this fuel, deposits can form in the combustion chamber. Over time, these deposits build up and reduce your engine’s performance.'
Ethanol doesn't break down like many of the other additives in today's gasoline. A quart of moonshine gets better with age...not worse.
'Barrel aging is what helps give whiskey its color, but before whiskey touches a barrel it's a clear spirit.” The major difference between white whiskey and moonshine is the fact that the term moonshine is a reference to a product for which taxes have not been paid.' Aged whiskey can sit in a barrel for a few years.
That said, do not run the e15 in your outboard. I believe (and have been told) testing will be ongoing to determine scope of use, much like it was with e10, and until that's been done it will be illegal to use in a small engine. We'll see where that goes, tons of politicking there too.
One can wager successfully that 15% and even higher concentrations of renewable fuels will become the standard in the future whether big oil likes it or not today, and everyone in the industry knows that. Auto racing engine mod specialists love the stuff. Supercharged engines produce more power and make for a faster car tuned for burning the e85 blend.
Especially telling is that quote from the Merc website. TWO WEEKS. Stabilize your fuel in your boat, every tank, unless you burn it every couple weeks and regardless what you decide to burn. If you don't and your engine breaks down as a result, my effort here is to point out that ethanol is not and has never been the problem and one is not 'OK' to just put in the ethanol free fuel and call it good.
(35-802893q01_large__33628.1469113649.1280.1280.jpg)
Attachments
----------------
35-802893q01_large__33628.1469113649.1280.1280.jpg (33KB - 440 downloads)
41T5dXfXDEL.jpg (16KB - 411 downloads)
| |
| | |
Posts: 3469
Location: Elk River, Minnesota | 4amuskie - 3/31/2019 9:10 PM
And where does your expertise and knowledge come from may I ask
I'm a mathematics instructor as my career which also comes with it, an emphasis in calculus based physics, chemistry, and geometry within my degree.
I do not claim to be an expert...but I am a lifelong learner and continue to learn more and more about things that interest me...fuel being one of them. So...where I've gained my knowledge is through research within the scientific community. I then would take that information with what people would take as "truth" (in most cases what someone told them because they experienced, this or that...) And consider that information against proven and peer reviewed scientific studies.
It's amazing how many people deny with ethanol blended fuels the pure chemistry and physics behind it.
Steve
Edited by VMS 4/1/2019 7:56 AM
| |
| | |
| Funny you mention E85. Great fuel and smells really good too. Awesome power from it too but the fuel mileage SUCKS and makes it cost prohibitive unless priced 30% less. i burn it when its priced as stated because it makes my vehicle fun to drive, but that doesnt happen too often. Next time you are at the pumps, check out the nozzles on the hoses for a great comparison. Reg gas always has some darker tint on them. The E85 is clean except for some corrosive spots.
I dont have anything petro companies. I do wonder about the power of the subsidized corn industry though.
Oh well, back to the search for real gas on the lake.......... | |
| | |
Posts: 3469
Location: Elk River, Minnesota | 4amuskie,
Where would you rather money go...to the hard working farmers of this country or the multi-billion dollar oil companies who already have us "over a barrel" so to speak... And..to be clear...it was not E85 that Steve Worrall mentioned if I'm reading things correctly...it was E15.
Fuel mileage will always be less with any ethanol blend because it does not have the same BTU output as pure gasoline...that is not being argued here... E10 is not going to be as efficient as pure fuel, but the difference is nowhere near that of running E85 in your flex fuel vehicle.
I had a flex fuel vehicle a while back (ford ranger) that could take E85. Ran it a few times but correct...it was not cost efficient for me as a consumer. It definitely ran clean which I feel is a good thing, but as a consumer, I like my money to go as far as it can....so for me, E10 was my choice. I have not run E15 at this point because it is not readily available....but...if my vehicle is ok to run it, I'd do so...with the understanding it will not have as good of mileage, but I'm supporting clean air and a cleaner burning engine.
As both Steve Worrall and I have stated...run whatever fuel you feel the most comfortable running. Just be sure to stabilize the fuel if your rig is going to sit for any period of time. it is THAT maintenance which saves your engine and fuel system from trouble.
Steve
Edited by VMS 4/1/2019 8:10 AM
| |
| | |
| Thanks VMS!!! | |
| | |
Posts: 32798
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | 4amuskie - 4/1/2019 7:48 AM
Funny you mention E85. Great fuel and smells really good too. Awesome power from it too but the fuel mileage SUCKS and makes it cost prohibitive unless priced 30% less. i burn it when its priced as stated because it makes my vehicle fun to drive, but that doesnt happen too often. Next time you are at the pumps, check out the nozzles on the hoses for a great comparison. Reg gas always has some darker tint on them. The E85 is clean except for some corrosive spots.
I dont have anything petro companies. I do wonder about the power of the subsidized corn industry though.
Oh well, back to the search for real gas on the lake..........
I have a little insight with the Ethanol 'lobby'. It's not at all what one might think judging the activity from the anti-ethanol side of the fence.
We had a project last year shooting some videos with Missouri Corn, Crappie Masters, and the Renewable Fuels Association. That's what got me curious, as what we filmed went directly against the grain of what I was hearing and reading, so I started looking into it. Then came the e15 politics, and the ripple through the marine industry, and that really got me going. I specifically asked them what they were looking for, what the agenda was, etc. The very clear answer was just this:
"We want to get the truth out to the anglers and boaters that e10 is safe to burn in outboard motors"
That's it.
The e85 deal I found interesting and goes along with what you said. A cool video, just a bit rough at times, from Down Under:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ltWcgiCm4NY
Please forgive the opening...
| |
| | |
Posts: 93
|
Where would you rather money go...to the hard working farmers of this country or the multi-billion dollar oil companies who already have us "over a barrel" so to speak...
This comment implies (wrongly) that oil industry jobs aren't also filled by hard-working Americans. Roughnecks are well paid in the six-figure class, but work #*^@ hard to earn it. And the majority of farm production is from farms with more than $1M in sales annually, with the move to large and very large farms accelerating quickly. The better businesses out-compete the less adept; that's the way of things, it's only nostalgia that holds up 30-cow-80-acre farms as some sort of ideal.
Let's say I put about 300 gallons through my boat each year. 91 octane "pure" gas costs less than $0.50/gallon more than e10 gas. This circular discussion (with some full-on SHOUTED posts) is simply not worth $150 per year.
Edited by undersized 4/1/2019 7:43 PM
| |
| | |
Posts: 3469
Location: Elk River, Minnesota | undersized - 4/1/2019 7:42 PM
Where would you rather money go...to the hard working farmers of this country or the multi-billion dollar oil companies who already have us "over a barrel" so to speak...
This comment implies (wrongly ) that oil industry jobs aren't also filled by hard-working Americans. Roughnecks are well paid in the six-figure class, but work #*^@ hard to earn it. And the majority of farm production is from farms with more than $1M in sales annually, with the move to large and very large farms accelerating quickly. The better businesses out-compete the less adept; that's the way of things, it's only nostalgia that holds up 30-cow-80-acre farms as some sort of ideal.
Let's say I put about 300 gallons through my boat each year. 91 octane "pure" gas costs less than $0.50/gallon more than e10 gas. This circular discussion (with some full-on SHOUTED posts ) is simply not worth $150 per year.
Don't get me wrong...I completely understand there are hard working people around the world in the oil industry...those would be the ones who don't see the anything more than their paycheck. Price of oil goes up, their paycheck doesn't.... Demand pushes prices up even though there is enough to go around... it goes in the pockets at the top... That is not rocket science either...
I don't know about you...but I'd rather put that $150 toward something other than burning out my engine with no real benefit...
Edited by VMS 4/1/2019 9:36 PM
| |
| | |
Posts: 32798
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | undersized - 4/1/2019 7:42 PM
Where would you rather money go...to the hard working farmers of this country or the multi-billion dollar oil companies who already have us "over a barrel" so to speak...
This comment implies (wrongly ) that oil industry jobs aren't also filled by hard-working Americans. Roughnecks are well paid in the six-figure class, but work #*^@ hard to earn it. And the majority of farm production is from farms with more than $1M in sales annually, with the move to large and very large farms accelerating quickly. The better businesses out-compete the less adept; that's the way of things, it's only nostalgia that holds up 30-cow-80-acre farms as some sort of ideal.
Let's say I put about 300 gallons through my boat each year. 91 octane "pure" gas costs less than $0.50/gallon more than e10 gas. This circular discussion (with some full-on SHOUTED posts ) is simply not worth $150 per year.
I don't see a single 'shouted' post in this thread. A couple places where emphasis was used...
The discussion is not circular at all, the debate has at the very least informed a bunch of folks who have said nothing here.
My intent is not to 'save anyone money' by purchasing any specific grade of fuel, although that could be a benefit. It's to correct a serious misconception that has spawned an industry based solely on misinformation, improper politicking, and worse, and to discuss why that's happening and where the misconception comes from, while getting the facts out there for debate. So far so good. This thread won't stop any of the misinformation mill, and I'm quite aware of that. I hope it DOES save a few folks serious issues with their ride and clarifies how those issues really came to be.
The end goal is to educate folks about how really unstable their fuel is no matter what they buy, what to do about it, and the why of it. | |
| | |
Location: 31 | sworrall - 4/2/2019 2:48 PM
"The end goal is to educate folks about how really unstable their fuel is no matter what they buy, what to do about it, and the why of it.
Perfect! I've been following the gas threads right along and as previously stated I’ll have no problem using the E10 premium in the future (my outboards minimum is 89). For anyone who think people can't be swayed; I was arguing against anything other than E0 before and have done a 180 thanks to the research provided here (as well as a lot of my own prompted by this thread).
Once I have collected my thoughts I will post how I plan to switch from E O to E 10 to help gather further input. Here's some information I found somewhere that I found pertinent, and also very interesting.
"Mercury Marine, which recently hosted a Webinar on ethanol myths, noted that ethanol does not "grab water molecules out of the air." It is hydrophilic, which means ethanol holds water. With regular gasoline (E0) as well at E10, the primary cause of water collecting in tanks is condensation on tank walls. But unlike E0, which can absorb almost no moisture, E10 can hold up to half of one percent of water by volume, and the water molecules will dissolve in the fuel. The "solubilized" water will bypass the water separator and burn harmlessly through the engine. Only if phase separation were to occur would a water separator do its job, but by then the fuel itself would be the problem. The phase-separated water/ethanol mixture would settle on the bottom of the tank near the fuel pick-up and would quickly stall out or even damage your engine. And because ethanol is used to boost octane, the remaining (low-octane) gasoline at the top of the tank would also have the potential to damage your engine.
Note, however, that a fuel filter (10-micron) is essential to keep gunk from reaching your engine. Ethanol is a solvent that dissolves resins, rust, and dirt that have accumulated on older tank walls. Especially when you first make the transition to E10, it's important to carry spare filters and a galvanized bucket to store used filters prior to disposal. Even in new engines and tanks, E10 will sometimes form a mysterious gooey substance that will also clog filters. Richard Kolb, the manager of Emissions and Regulations for Volvo Penta, believes the goo is caused by water mixing with one or more of the 108 approved compounds that can be used in gasoline. These compounds vary among suppliers, so one solution is to change to a different brand of gasoline. Another is to use carburetor cleaner, which he says has sometimes remedied the problem." | |
| | |
Location: 31 | I cut off the bottom of this post from above when transferred…...
Obviously the beginning of this quote was just a rehash of what has been stated several times (but also probably can't be restated enough). What I found most interesting was the recommendation to switch to a different brand of gasoline if there was a problem with "goo" from the E 10.
You would think that they would have also recommended a water separating filter too (the vented fuel cell/condensation issue is why boats have a water separating filters and not automobiles).
AND why “it might” be a larger problem than we are giving it credit for here.
For me it's going to be more important than ever to maintain a full tank of gas with the E 10 whenever my boat is not in use. Also, condensation issues would be my best guess why Yamaha and Suzuki still recommend using the E0... but that's just a guess.
Edited by Jerry Newman 4/3/2019 12:22 PM
| |
| | |
Posts: 3469
Location: Elk River, Minnesota | That’s the funny part.. with non oxygenated fuel that water separator is even more important... it’s kind of backwards thinking.
That’s the beauty of E10... that little bit of condensation that just might occur in the rarest of situations would be a non issue... absorbed and burned... done | |
| | |
Posts: 32798
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Jerry Newman - 4/3/2019 12:19 PM
I cut off the bottom of this post from above when transferred…...
Obviously the beginning of this quote was just a rehash of what has been stated several times (but also probably can't be restated enough). What I found most interesting was the recommendation to switch to a different brand of gasoline if there was a problem with "goo" from the E 10.
You would think that they would have also recommended a water separating filter too (the vented fuel cell/condensation issue is why boats have a water separating filters and not automobiles).
AND why “it might” be a larger problem than we are giving it credit for here.
For me it's going to be more important than ever to maintain a full tank of gas with the E 10 whenever my boat is not in use. Also, condensation issues would be my best guess why Yamaha and Suzuki still recommend using the E0... but that's just a guess.
One company was very vociferous on the e15 issue, flat insisting that people are too stupid to NOT use that fuel in an outboard. They have also assisted in spreading the mis-truths over the last few years about e10. I'm not saying it was an intentional campaign to mislead the public, but it sure was voiced as if it was.
https://www.outdoorsfirst.com/article/ethanol-facts-vs-fiction/
That 'gunk' is apparently the result of a couple other additives that might one or all of these: benzene, xylene, and toluene. This stuff usually shows up as a result of a lower concentration of detergent additives in that brand's fuel. It also causes the same problem in non-oxygenated fuels, I have read that one several times in the last year. That's partially why Merc recommends using their brand of fuel stabilizer/cleaner in every tank. | |
| |
|
