Kirby Budrow - 7/20/2018 2:52 PM

All I can say is cover lots of water

jhein023 - 7/20/2018 10:02 PM

Well that's sort of depressing.

Kirby Budrow - 7/21/2018 7:15 AM



Vermilion gets hyped up like it’s good but really it’s one of the toughest lakes around. Yes, there are big ones but they rarely bite. Typically, people come up here very excited but go home in disappointment. Some weeks the turn on and you might get lucky, but that’s not the norm for vermilion.

happy hooker - 7/25/2018 4:48 PM

Vermilion,,"Minnesota s best kept muskie secret"
Remember those ads in every issue of musky hunter,Esox angler, and muskie magazine in the mid 2000s

tarpon6 - 7/26/2018 1:47 PM

Heading to Vermilion the last two weeks of September. I have 11 fishing days minus any bad weather days. Maybe I should cancel? I was there for about 7 days last year and didn't have the knowledge or lures to really target muskie, but had a follow up to the boat on small bulldog. The fish started to charge the figure 8 but somehow I balled the tail around the hooks and the fish slowly swam off. It was enough to get by heart pumping and think about going after them a little harder this year. I only spent about 6 hours total throwing anything specifically for muskie last year. I'm not going to let this post discourage me but it is true there is a cycle for many lakes / sought after species. The fishing is fantastic, then everyone talks about it, articles are written, TV shows highlight it, everyone goes there, the fish take a hit / become pressured, the fishing slows..

The smallmouth fishing was fantastic however. Good thing I love the smallies. I hope to catch a larger pike this year as well. I'll probably fish muskie early and late, smallies or pike during the day. Maybe a little walleye if I feel lazy. C&R on everything always for me. Can't wait to get back out there.

happy hooker - 7/26/2018 3:54 PM

Tarpon 6
If your going there in September bring the shotgun too,,fishing sucks but some of the best grouse hunting in the world,,and tons of public land,,we've taken guys to vermilion and then brought them out grouse hunting for a day and after all the fun they never picked up a rod the rest of the trip. One guy we brought and borrowed a gun too after a day on the trails said afterwards,,"right now I'd trade my ranger for a nice over/under"

Nershi - 7/27/2018 11:34 AM

If the day time fishing sucks pull an all nighter.

Top H2O - 7/26/2018 9:44 AM

To me Vermilion is more than just trying to boat a Muskie... it's about the overall experience and enjoyment I get out of exploring new areas and employing new and "older" tactics . It's about making new friends and enjoying the wildlife around the Lake. It's about sitting around the Campfire and chatting about things in Life and of course the fishing.
To me Vermilion is my recharging station and a place to clear my mind and find the Peace of God.
Boating a Muskie is just a bonus, the Cherry on the Cake.
Fishing for Muskie on Vermilion may never be what it was, but it still is better than a lot of other places.

G-Rome

mbuck - 7/30/2018 3:32 PM

I just back from fishing Vermilion July 22-25th and the Muskie fishing was very tough for us. This was only the third time I have ever fished it, so not making a proclamation about the lake. Just agreeing that is was also super tough for us!

On a side note while I was eating breakfast at a lodge, I overheard the owner talking with some patrons. They were commenting on how Muskie's are invasive species and they are eating all the walleyes. Their consensus was that no muskies should be in the lake and all the Muskie's should be killed. Sadly it looks like Minnesota's Muskie fight is just getting started.

ARmuskyaddict - 7/31/2018 12:22 AM

Kirby is correct. Originally native, shoepack then stocked, then Leechers. I heard many times to watch out for those red fish... All of MN needs more education on muskies.

Kirby, were you putzing through Everett Bay last Friday evening?

tarpon6 - 7/31/2018 8:01 AM

I've heard storied of locals killing muskies accidentally caught when walleye fishing. The DNR did stock 8300 fingerlings in 2015 and 3000 in 2017. I wonder what the survival rate is on those fish?

The_Answer - 7/31/2018 8:37 AM

Don't let 1 or 2 years of bigger stocking numbers fool you when there happens to be a "surplus." The reason why we are seeing what we are seeing on the V is math. If you look at the stocking data over the past 30 years, you will see a DRASTIC stocking reduction. I wouldn't say that the V is "tough" or "overrated" right now.....this is just what the lake has come to. This is normal now. Next time it is calm and sunny, go up on some of the best shallow rock reefs and report back what you see. On some spots there used to be 15-25 muskies, now there are 0 most of the time. All of the Muskies that used to get stocked into the V, Mille Lacs, and the Saint Louis River, have all gone to Western Minnesota. No one is talking about it and its a joke.

For example in this 10 year stretch from 2003-2013:

-Vermilion is 40K acres in size and received 18,002 Muskies in those 10 years which ONLY .46 fish per acre.
-6 lakes in Western mn (Pelican, Detroit, Big, West Battle, Planet, Miltona) COMBINED size of 24K acres and received 65,567 Muskies which is 2.7 fish per acre.

Just curious why certain lakes are more important than other. The MMPA doesn't care, Muskie Inc doesnt care, DNR doesn't care.

Brad P - 7/31/2018 11:04 AM
Perhaps one day the DNR will reintroduce them to Lake Pepin or Big Sandy.

Brad P - 7/31/2018 11:04 AM

What size was stocked? If you are going from fry to 12" Fingerling to 17" Yearling the survive-ability rates are DRASTICALLY different, so one to one is not a real comparison. Can't just look at raw numbers stocked.

Kirby Budrow - 7/31/2018 5:51 AM

Nope, haven’t been in there all season actually. I was out fishing though! Blanked all weekend:(

The_Answer - 7/31/2018 2:43 PM

Why are the lakes in Western MN more important than V, Mille Lacs, SLR?

Why is Detroit Lake getting over 6 fish per acre? Its being stocked at FIVE TIMES the rate of V or Mille Lacs......

How is that okay? And WHY was that decision made?


That is just one example of Western MN taking all of the states Muskies.

The_Answer - 7/31/2018 8:37 AM

Don't let 1 or 2 years of bigger stocking numbers fool you when there happens to be a "surplus." The reason why we are seeing what we are seeing on the V is math. If you look at the stocking data over the past 30 years, you will see a DRASTIC stocking reduction. I wouldn't say that the V is "tough" or "overrated" right now.....this is just what the lake has come to. This is normal now. Next time it is calm and sunny, go up on some of the best shallow rock reefs and report back what you see. On some spots there used to be 15-25 muskies, now there are 0 most of the time. All of the Muskies that used to get stocked into the V, Mille Lacs, and the Saint Louis River, have all gone to Western Minnesota. No one is talking about it and its a joke.

For example in this 10 year stretch from 2003-2013:

-Vermilion is 40K acres in size and received 18,002 Muskies in those 10 years which ONLY .46 fish per acre.
-6 lakes in Western mn (Pelican, Detroit, Big, West Battle, Planet, Miltona) COMBINED size of 24K acres and received 65,567 Muskies which is 2.7 fish per acre.

Just curious why certain lakes are more important than other. The MMPA doesn't care, Muskie Inc doesnt care, DNR doesn't care.

The_Answer - 7/31/2018 2:43 PM

Why are the lakes in Western MN more important than V, Mille Lacs, SLR?

Why is Detroit Lake getting over 6 fish per acre? Its being stocked at FIVE TIMES the rate of V or Mille Lacs......

How is that okay? And WHY was that decision made?


That is just one example of Western MN taking all of the states Muskies.

The_Answer - 7/31/2018 2:43 PM

Why are the lakes in Western MN more important than V, Mille Lacs, SLR?

Why is Detroit Lake getting over 6 fish per acre? Its being stocked at FIVE TIMES the rate of V or Mille Lacs......

How is that okay? And WHY was that decision made?


That is just one example of Western MN taking all of the states Muskies.

The_Answer - 8/1/2018 10:50 AM
But if you just take the big picture and look at the last 20 years of stocking data...

Stocking does have a bigger picture effect than just fishing. Local economies like business, resorts see an effect from the declining muskie fisheries, specifically V and Mille Lacs.

But I just cannot wrap my head around why we would want to build those fisheries up to world class like the used to be, and then cut the stocking by a drastic amount. Seems reckless. Will be interesting to watch the next 10 years for the boys over in Western MN. I bet if their stocking got cut by 50% for a 20 year period, they wouldn't stay silent like they want to people in the central and east side of state to be right now :)

Hammskie - 8/1/2018 10:40 AM

Factor this: This whole topic is a small, irrelevant piece of the universe. It's a fish—a fish that wasn't fishable before the DNR put them in our lakes. Why not show a little gratitude for a state government that allowed us to build the most insane statewide muskie fishery that has ever existed?

I'll keep supporting the stocking in any way I can but I'm not calling anyone "ignorant" for thinking the top predator is eating the smaller fish.

The_Answer - 8/1/2018 10:50 AM

I am not a guide on V. I fish all over the state. But just watching V decline over the last handful of years I did a lot of research on stocking data. Did I cherry pick a specific 10 year stretch to make a statement? Sure. But if you just take the big picture and look at the last 20 years of stocking data on some of the lakes like V and Mille Lacs and the SLR, which used be classified as world class, it just raises a few questions. And most importantly as NAR mentioned: "According to the DNR themselves, the statewide discrepancy between stocking rates was enough to spur them into standardizing the stocking rate to 1 fish per littoral acre every 2 years." Why is that not being followed, like not even close? How about asking the fisheries manager for that region?

Stocking does have a bigger picture effect than just fishing. Local economies like business, resorts see an effect from the declining muskie fisheries, specifically V and Mille Lacs. Those systems will never be what they were, this is very common in muskie management, and takes a deeper understanding than one sees on the surface of the issue. One can't manipulate the data to conveniently arrive at any single conclusion.

If the goal was to have the SLR, V, Mille Lacs to be a low density fishery, I guess i can live with that. But I just cannot wrap my head around why we would want to build those fisheries up to world class like the used to be, and then cut the stocking by a drastic amount. Seems reckless. Look into 'new reservoir syndrome'. It's very real.


Will be interesting to watch the next 10 years for the boys over in Western MN. I bet if their stocking got cut by 50% for a 20 year period, they wouldn't stay silent like they want to people in the central and east side of state to be right now
:)

sworrall - 8/1/2018 11:12 AM

<font color="#ff0066">They are not 'silent', they are communicating with the correct people.</font>

Kirby Budrow - 8/1/2018 11:05 AM
You're right in some ways. It's a rich person problem. Not enough fish to catch blah blah blah. But we were used to MN being good, and now it's not, for more than one reason. Now everyone is going to Canada. Which is over pressured as well. We just use and abuse the resource until it's gone. There should be a way to sustain what we have here in MN though. The only thing I can think to do is stock more fish and have the people who are on the fish, keep their mouths shut.

Hammskie - 8/1/2018 11:31 AM



Pressure: Since muskie stocking started in MN, the world's population has gone from 4.4 billion to 7.6 billion people. So in my fatalistic outlook, there will probably never be enough fish... ever again.

Kirby Budrow - 8/1/2018 11:31 AM



Fisheries managers here have been talked to many times at many meetings. They have heard all the opinions and came to a conclusion. They are planning to stock a few more fish, but not 1 per acre. 3000 every year is the new goal. It's a 15000 acre lake.

The new reservoir syndrome obviously is a real thing, but still, why not stock at real levels? Once the new res syndrome wears off, why stock less fish?

Sudszee - 8/1/2018 11:51 AM



15k? Vermilion is 40k acres.

It gets murky when you take into account size of lake. Elk is 300 acres. ML is 135,000. One size doesn't fit all. Just to be clear on this, I think the Elk Lake thing is far from a persuasive analysis. You can't determine how to stock a 40,000 or 135,000 acre system based on a 300 acre system, at least not alone. Still, Elk can provide useful information so we are also foolish to dismiss it entirely.

happy hooker - 8/2/2018 2:11 PM

But maybe there's a plan to get the sovereign nation do what they want casino involved????

happy hooker - 8/7/2018 3:32 PM

After spending three days at buddy's cabin a lot relaxing on the porch watching boat after boat hit his area.
I would suggest slowing down those tailbait topwater or switching because the fish are seeing an endless parade of burned prop baits.

The_Answer - 8/10/2018 7:15 AM

Western MN has gotten a HEAVY fish per acre stocking rate the last 20 years.
That is why the V, ML, SLR all have gone from "world class" to "drive past."
Its just math.
However on a funny note, I do love hearing that the lake is still good from people who hardly fish the lake, especially people who fish it one time a year at most. I guess we should ignore what the people who have fished it everyday the last 10 years and what their feedback is :)

The_Answer - 8/10/2018 7:15 AM

Western MN has gotten a HEAVY fish per acre stocking rate the last 20 years.
That is why the V, ML, SLR all have gone from "world class" to "drive past."
Its just math.
However on a funny note, I do love hearing that the lake is still good from people who hardly fish the lake, especially people who fish it one time a year at most. I guess we should ignore what the people who have fished it everyday the last 10 years and what their feedback is :)

Reelwise - 8/10/2018 4:09 AM

Could it be that they reduced Muskie stocking on Lake Vermilion to be able to better analyze natural reproduction rates?

Aside from the poor catch rates... there are times when the lake is absolutely on fire. I am not sure fish population is an issue.

Sometimes... each fish/spot needs more, individual attention.

The run and gun... cover as much water... approach is not always the best way to go about catching numbers of fish.

At times... one can catch more fish on just a couple spots... than one can catch trying to fish as much as the lake as possible... which seems to be the way many fish Lake Vermilion.

I have not fished the lake in years... so, I am simply throwing out ideas based on the results I have been given and what I have seen posted.

muskyhunter07 - 8/9/2018 10:14 PM

I'll be up there in 2 weeks with a guide I'll let you know how many I catch!!

muskyhunter07 - 8/10/2018 8:49 AM

Way to many acres and water to be that pressured just saying.

Kirby Budrow - 8/10/2018 8:37 AM

The only thing I can say to that is that when some of the best guides and fisherman in the world are struggling on a lake, they resort to new or old tactics to try and pick up some fish. It's the first thing to try. Believe me, we are all trying everything we can to get fish so I highly doubt there is one magic solution to get all those fish to bite that nobody can figure out. Also, the last time the lake was on fire was the PMTT. Since then the pressure exploded because of the press, and the lake has taken a turn for the worse. It's my belief that the fish are dying because of hooking mortality and also just unwilling to bite because of all the pressure. And just because the pressure isn't like the Mad Chain or any Illinois lake, doesn't mean it is bad and bad for the lake. It's bad, and still is today.

nar160 - 8/10/2018 10:39 AM



Just for comparison, I checked the stocking on a couple Mad Chain lakes. Over the years 2004-2013, here is the tally:

LAKE ------- ACRES --- FINGERLINGS --- FINGERLINGS/ACRE
Vermilion --- 39272 ---- 18002 --------- 0.46
Monona ---- 3274 ----- 14958 --------- 4.6
Waubesa --- 2074 ----- 11592 --------- 5.6

Those lakes had 10 and 12 times the fish stocked into them over this period. Sure seems plausible to me that they would be more resilient to pressure.

muskyhunter07 - 8/10/2018 10:35 AM

Lol you havent seen green bay, Fox chain, the list goes on. Pressure fish are all over. But having 40K acres is a plus.

sworrall - 8/10/2018 11:33 AM

It's not that simple. Way more to successful muskie population management than stocking data.

Kirby Budrow - 8/10/2018 1:49 PM

https://www.dnr.state.mn.us/lakevermilion/index.html

Here is the newly revised plan for vermilion. The DNR does not want the lake to be a high population lake (who knows why). I just think they don't want to make anybody mad, so they do less. 3000 fish a year. Pretty low but I guess that's how they want to manage it.

Dirt Esox - 8/10/2018 3:44 PM

I think littoral acres don't matter much at all when large populations of pelagic baitfish are present. Never understood that metric, seems arbitrary

sworrall - 8/10/2018 5:03 PM

Keep in mind many systems in MN were originally stocked to establish a (possibly) partially self sustaining fishable population, not to create 'forever' numbers lakes teeming with 50s.

IAJustin - 8/10/2018 3:51 PM

Is Muskie Fishing supposed to be easy? Didn’t I read a newspaper article in 2017 that at least 4 muskies 55” or larger were caught in 3 days? Wow!! Sure it’s a tough lake, but for a fish of a lifetime (to me that’s 55”+) one of the best places on earth!!! For me keep stocking V low density, I don’t go to V trying to catch 30 a week, I want 1 ..the right one and I like a challenge

sworrall - 8/10/2018 4:03 PM

Keep in mind many systems in MN were originally stocked to establish a (possibly) partially self sustaining fishable population, not to create 'forever' numbers lakes teeming with 50s. Said populations matured at a normal rate, and peaked just before the average muskie angler figured out what was available. Those fish literally were, in comparison to today's pressure, unfished.

There were lots of adult fish in the 'trophy' class that had never seen a muskie lure, and as a result of the ensuing mad rush to MN and growing population of Muskie anglers, angling pressure increased steadily to the ridiculous it can be on some waters some days now.

I remember the original stocking on those waters very clearly, and the few anglers who found them a few years later when the first couple stocked year classes hit the low 40's. What has happened since is chronicled right here on MuskieFIRST in dozens of conversations, not the least of which was the 'it's the fish' debate.

Many held on to the idea that MN would forever kick out big numbers of big fish, and be the destination of all trophy muskie anglers everywhere well into the future.

What actually happened and is happening is exactly what was predicted in those conversations by some pretty well educated muskie management folks. Classic 'new reservoir' syndrome, as described by a couple of the best muskie fisheries managers in the world who had the somewhat short lived nerve to take on the general public and attempt to pass on some reasonable expectations.

These waters now offer established populations with decent year class distribution and trophy potential, are aging well all things considered, and are currently supported by stocking as is necessary. Given the average rate of angling mortality, it's good thing the fish are no longer suicidal and have adapted to the continuous pressure well.

Focus on just the muskie population to meet expectations of anglers who fished the lakes through the process isn't likely, especially considering social pressure to improve other game fish populations like walleye hit hard by overfishing, warming average water temps and the resulting changes in bass populations, and other factors. There's only so many fish to go around, and so many dollars to be spent. There are a few very dedicated folks who work hard to raise money, awareness, and even fish to help maintain levels at what we think is best. For the most part, the general audience here isn't even aware of those efforts.

Lots to think about, and far more complicated than most would think. One thing it's safe to predict right now; muskie angling pressure on some of those waters will drop off and long term, muskie fishing will get better.

4amuskie - 8/12/2018 4:48 PM

Say whatever you want but having fished there many times and watching what happened, it's not the musky fisherman killing them. Saw them in nets and with their guts cut open. The only people that like them are us. Everyone that lives there would just as soon see them dead.

sworrall - 8/12/2018 4:53 PM



May be true, I have not heard much about that from the folks at Spring Bay. But angling mortality still is a very significant factor. What you bring up would be an added issue. Over here we have the Winter and Spring spearing added to the equation and a few idiots who kill muskies because they think they are eating all the whatevers.

nar160 - 8/11/2018 12:29 AM


Vermilion is a bit different. Yes, there was an initial peak and an expected decline. However, the thing that everyone is concerned about is the dramatic drop off in stocking. In the decade 1987-1996, when the stocking was started, 52,599 fingerlings were stocked - that's 1.34 fingerlings/acre over the decade, a relatively modest stocking rate (less than 1/3 of DL and the Mad Chain lake examples). 10 years after that, the fishing was pretty good by most reports, but of course, that's biased a bit by the new reservoir syndrome. The point of discussion is the dramatic drop off in stocking that followed. From 2004-2013, that rate was 0.46 fingerlings/acre. The rate decreased by a factor of 3, from an already modest rate. Other fisheries have not seen this. Why cut the input to V during a time when recruitment rate was already expected to take a hit? Presumably they expected natural reproduction to take hold, but that does not seem to be the case. It seems that the new plan has adjusted for this and is bumping the stocking up a little, although not to the initial levels. Hopefully this will help bring up the population in the future.

The_Answer - 8/13/2018 6:49 AM

THIS! Look at those numbers that are real time data, they are facts. The questions is, WHY?

BrianF. - 8/11/2018 12:33 AM

People keep saying V is a go-to destination for the fish of a lifetime, though most complain she is on a steep downhill slide - and rightfully so. Meanwhile, Bret Alexander mentioned on national TV that he put 68 fish over 50” in his boat last year on Green Bay. Not 68 muskies; 68 over 50. The two bodies of water aren’t even comparable in terms of big fish productivity right now. Anyone searching for the fish of a lifetime would do way better going to other waters. There must be something else that is attracting fishermen to Vermilion.

As for the pressure on V, it has changed the fishery. What mature fish remain don’t act like they used to in a lot of ways. They don’t use key spots like in years past and when they do it’s for shorter durations and far fewer fish. They also seem to hold further off shore now and deeper than they once did. Many of the largest fish have learned avoidance behaviors or have become virtually uncatchable. If it’s a musky challenge you want, V will give it to you - and she will usually win. More these days that she is in decline as a musky fishery.

tarpon6 - 8/14/2018 11:19 AM

So I just noticed the PMTT will finish up 2 days before I get to Vermilion. How much worse is the fishing after a big tourney and how long does it take for the fish to "recover"?

tarpon6 - 8/14/2018 11:19 AM

So I just noticed the PMTT will finish up 2 days before I get to Vermilion. How much worse is the fishing after a big tourney and how long does it take for the fish to "recover"?

The_Answer - 8/14/2018 3:35 PM

I would take trips to Western MN instead of V if you are looking for Muskie action. The V obviously is beautiful, but if its a hardcore Muskie trip in September, it could and most likely will be tough. Seeing 2, and getting 1 bite per day is pretty solid for V. And by per day, I mean a 16 hour day on the water. Enjoy!

tarpon6 - 8/14/2018 11:19 AM

So I just noticed the PMTT will finish up 2 days before I get to Vermilion. How much worse is the fishing after a big tourney and how long does it take for the fish to "recover"?

Kirby Budrow - 8/14/2018 4:34 PM

It would be fun to take bets on fish caught during the mega tournament this year! My guess is 20 in 3 days.

danmuskyman - 8/14/2018 6:17 PM

Just got back from my first trip to Vermilion. 3 guys boated 2 fish in 6 days. One was 30”, and one was 40”. We moved 4 others total. Not exactly what I was expecting. As to all the people saying how beautiful V is, I’d also disagree. The lake is heavily developed and has houses, resorts or pleasure boaters everywhere you look. There were a few spots that had guys throwing muskies baits on them every time we went by no matter what time it was. We also had pontoons cut us off casting or other boats come screaming by full speed within casting distance every single day. That stuff is standard on the Madison chain, but not what I drive 8 hours north for. To me a northern WI lake that’s surrounded by forest and you are one of if not the only boat on the water is much more beautiful.