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Posts: 72
| Got into a discussion with a lodge owner and a group of guests about guides fishing hot spots. One of the guests was complaining about a guide from another lodge going out after he was done guiding for the day and fishing the areas where they had seen fish. The lodge owner was very adamant he did not want his guides fishing for muskies when they were done guiding clients. The discussion went back and forth for a while, but the lodge owner finally said he did not want his guides catching the muskies that his guests were paying good money to fish for. This was at a lake where are not huge musky numbers, so the owner said there was already enough competition for those fish. I thought it was an interesting discussion, and by the end I totally understood the owner's thinking. Thoughts?? |
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Location: Northern Illinois | he doesn't own the water or the muskie. Fish all you want. |
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Posts: 2024
| He owns the business paying for the guide to be able to fish... Interesting topic. |
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Posts: 16632
Location: The desert | ARmuskyaddict - 6/26/2017 10:56 PM
He owns the business paying for the guide to be able to fish... Interesting topic.
Very true, conversely the lodge owner may enjoy the success some success because of the guide's abilities.
What does the lodge stand to lose if they fire the guide?
What does the guide stand to lose if he fishes on his own after hours?
I don't have the answers. |
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Posts: 72
| I thought it was a really interesting discussion too. At first I think I understood the guides wanting to go out and catch those fish, but the more I heard the owner talk about it I sided with him. He said he paid the guides to put the guests on fish, not for the guides to go out to try to catch the fish he wanted the guests to catch. |
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Posts: 618
Location: Bloomington, MN | I'm just guessing this a place NOT on L.O.T.W. or possibly Trout Rock,NWT??? The last thing I would want is a guide putting in extra hours after our trip to possibly put me on fish the next day!!! I'm sensing a major $$$$$ fly-in Dr. Jacoby! |
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Posts: 618
Location: Bloomington, MN | Sorry Lester, but the slavery/resort guide deal I don't buy. I'm sure this isn't a Trout Rock incident, but to a have a guide that did research with me or some other incompetent prick is admirable. Resort owners on good lakes desire mediocre results at the best for their guests and guides!
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Posts: 770
| question- is the guide fishing while he has clients? Or only running the boat? Se
Second is the guide only fishing spots where they raised fish during that day?
I would have a pretty hard time if my employer said that im not allowed to fish in my time off. I mean come on....
I might agree with the lodge owner if the guide was only hitting spots where he had raised fish with clients, but in all reality every hour that guide spends on the water he is gaining knowledge, learning patterns and what not. Which will make him more productive. |
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Posts: 719
| I can tell you this. When I'm done with the full day guide trip in the sun I sure as heck don't go back out. Screw that. I want an ice tea with my feet up at that point. |
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Posts: 815
Location: Waukee, IA | Sounds like the lodge owner is a controlling Richard-head. |
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Posts: 255
| Where else does this dilemma apply in other work settings? Might have to have a no compete clause. Is the guide insubordinate?
I'd say the guide should not personally benefit from specific work day activities, and should just fish other spots. It is more of a moral argument. |
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Posts: 1719
| The guide has the option of working for the resort. The resort has the option of hiring the guide. If the resort owner laid out his feelings on the matter the guide as a employee / sub contractor should abide by his wishes or move on to another resort. Both need to have the clients best interest in mind here. |
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Posts: 1719
| The guide has the option of working for the resort. The resort has the option of hiring the guide. If the resort owner laid out his feelings on the matter the guide as a employee / sub contractor should abide by his wishes or move on to another resort. Both need to have the clients best interest in mind here. |
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Posts: 72
| Clark, no it definitely wasn't LOTW where there are endless spots and a ton of fish. It was more of a limited numbers lake. I believe the guide was out fishing the spots where they had moved fish, or where he was familiar with where big fish had been recently been seen. I think that was part of the controversy...guide sees clients move a few big fish during the day and learns from other guests where the big girls had been roaming...clients go back out in the evening to try to said big girls and there is the guide pounding the spots. The lodge owner said he gets return business by his clients catching fish, not the guides out there competing against them. Like I said, the lodge owner had some pretty convincing points. And when you are talking about the possibility of losing several thousand dollars by guests not returning, I totally understood his point of view on the matter. |
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Posts: 833
| Brian Hoffies - 6/27/2017 9:11 AM
The guide has the option of working for the resort. The resort has the option of hiring the guide. If the resort owner laid out his feelings on the matter the guide as a employee / sub contractor should abide by his wishes or move on to another resort. Both need to have the clients best interest in mind here.
I agree with this 100%. Ultimately the guest of the resort is the person funding the whole operation since it wouldn't exist without their current and continued patronage. If the customer is annoyed, then the changes need to be made so the customer is not annoyed. The resort and guide probably won't be around very long if the customers doe not come back. |
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Location: minocqua, wi. | Lester Neigard - 6/27/2017 9:29 AM
Clark, no it definitely wasn't LOTW where there are endless spots and a ton of fish. It was more of a limited numbers lake. I believe the guide was out fishing the spots where they had moved fish, or where he was familiar with where big fish had been recently been seen. I think that was part of the controversy...guide sees clients move a few big fish during the day and learns from other guests where the big girls had been roaming...clients go back out in the evening to try to said big girls and there is the guide pounding the spots. The lodge owner said he gets return business by his clients catching fish, not the guides out there competing against them. Like I said, the lodge owner had some pretty convincing points. And when you are talking about the possibility of losing several thousand dollars by guests not returning, I totally understood his point of view on the matter.
if business loss potential is real and evident both lose at that game, so maybe the % booked vs. % paid number is askew and in need of adjustment? or maybe a bonus paid for guided client fish over a certain size? that might reverse the efforts ... |
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Posts: 1023
| I agree with the owner in this case.
I also think a guide should not fish u less invited to do so by his clients. At the very least the guide should be the last cast thru new water. |
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Posts: 1209
| T3clay - 6/27/2017 12:29
I might agree with the lodge owner if the guide was only hitting spots where he had raised fish with clients, but in all reality every hour that guide spends on the water he is gaining knowledge, learning patterns and what not. Which will make him more productive.
Yes I would prefer the guide to go out and learn not try to to stick a raised fish, unless he has zero pictures for advertisement. Like if clients cant get it done maybe he has to get a few in the boat. Also he could be off a spot 50 yards doing something completely different trying to establish a pattern( it would be hard to see exactly from shore), would really have to be there to get the whole vibe. Wasn't this a guide from an opposing resort? If I owened a resort it would make it look like I'm against him as well. Slander slander
Edited by Fishysam 6/27/2017 9:58 AM
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Posts: 4343
Location: Smith Creek | This is great, I just found another excuse for why I didn't catch a fish:
Rogue fishing guides from the "other" side of the lake are wearing out all the best spots.
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Posts: 1767
Location: Lake Country, Wisconsin | If you have a lake that is that sensitive to something like that, it's time to find a new one... |
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Posts: 983
| If the guide isnt fishing with the clients and he is going after the guide is over I Dont see the problem...also though being a guide Im sure he has plenty of spots to fish but if I was the guest paying the Guide and I saw this I would have absolutely No Issue with it at all...this would atleast tell me the guide is putting me on spots were there are active fish being he is hitting same spot later I think I would be more upset if I saw the guide fishing later and he didnt hit one spot he took me to all day if that makes since...I had my chance if I couldnt get her to eat and he can thats my problem IMO....also you dont know that the guide isnt out there trying to figure out a pattern for the Fish So He is more confident of putting you on Fish the next day could be a lot more going on there than you know unless you are out there with him seeing it all first hand just my take
Edited by 25homes 6/27/2017 12:46 PM
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Posts: 20211
Location: oswego, il | It is the resort owners choice to make those rules. Give you another example. I was a judge boat in.a tournament once. While waiting i bass fished but my boat partner musky fished. He caught a 40"er. One person fishing the tournament took exception. I could see his point and not just because i like this website. 
Edited by ToddM 6/27/2017 1:38 PM
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Posts: 1220
| Just don't see a guide wanting to catch his customers fish. It's counterproductive to the whole idea of his business. He makes money when he puts you on fish, when you tell others, and he gets a big rep for it. The TV guys need to catch fish but not the guides. Guides only need to let you catch them. Not sure this is a totally intelligent thread? |
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Posts: 983
| But if the guide is out guiding all day and doesnt fish just tries to put his clients on fish and once his day is over guiding and he wants to go fish for himself for a lil while I have no issue with it at all...Now if he was out throwing all day with you in the boat I might not like that but who knows maybe he hooks up in back of boat that guys missed or wanted diff bait lot of times he turn Rod over maybe that only fish of day and you dont see a fish other wise double edge sword here can go either way lots of opinions |
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Location: 31 | I know of a former very prominent guide from LOTW who went back out by himself and caught/kept a 57"/45lb that his customer has raised that afternoon (circa 1985). |
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Posts: 983
| Junkman - 6/27/2017 2:55 PM
Just don't see a guide wanting to catch his customers fish. It's counterproductive to the whole idea of his business. He makes money when he puts you on fish, when you tell others, and he gets a big rep for it. The TV guys need to catch fish but not the guides. Guides only need to let you catch them. Not sure this is a totally intelligent thread?
I agree with what you are saying but that would be more of a guide running his own business if you are a guide working for a Lodge this wouldnt be same situation at all..I see what you saying though just depends on whats actually going on withing the situation as well...Now if your running your own business and your not getting on fish now you have a real problem....Just think its totally different if you run your own guide and are out catching customers fish compared to you working your normal 8-5 just happens your 8-5 is to guide for a lodge and you want to go fishing for yourself when you get of work Im not gonna make the effort to pack up go to totally different lake Im going right back out and fishing the water I know best...I would try 1005 to put my clients on fish but at end of day they didnt catch anything and I feel like I want to go fish im going back out to try and catch fish...This would def hold true if I wasnt taking same ppl out the next day...Now if my clients got skunked day 1 and I have them scheduled day 2 I def wouldnt go fish the spots we raised fish that day myself Id save them for the ppl Im guiding the next day so depends on situations alot IMO |
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Posts: 8772
| It's kind of a slippery slope. Scouting for tomorrow's clients is totally different than going out to try to catch today's followers. I can;t blame a guide for going out on his own time to catch a few fish. If you don't enjoy fishing, you shouldn't be guiding. But if he's taking a camp boat out, using the resorts gas, etc. and trying to catch fish that clients missed that day? I have to say if I went out on my own in the evening and found the guide I fished with that day fishing a spot where we raised a fish I'd probably be kind of peeed about it.
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Posts: 36
Location: Stone Lk Wi | So when people hire a guide for the day to learn a lake is the guide supposed to stay away from those spots until that client is done with his vacation?
Edited by apeoples 6/27/2017 5:20 PM
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Posts: 1023
| No. If it's a one day trip.
Yes - if u will be guiding him again the next day.
I realize guides live to catch fish but being a guide means putting your customers first and making some sacrifices.
Trying to intercept a fish that u could guide them to the next day just seems selfish to me.
I've been on three guided trips and I encouraged the guides to fish. They did but makes sure that I got the best opportunities to get fish. |
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Posts: 36
Location: Stone Lk Wi | I hear ya, just have a hard time with people dictating what you can do when your off the clock, it's not his fault they saw a fish and couldn't seal the deal, I know quite a few guides and am friends with most of them from what I can see being a guide means is having a wife with a good job or parents with money. |
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Posts: 983
| apeoples - 6/27/2017 6:40 PM
I hear ya, just have a hard time with people dictating what you can do when your off the clock, it's not his fault they saw a fish and couldn't seal the deal, I know quite a few guides and am friends with most of them from what I can see being a guide means is having a wife with a good job or parents with money.
Ive often wondered what a guide actually makes who works for a lodge? I know you are talking $350-$500 a day as a client but what does lodge pay a guide per hour? how many fish you get on? I guess Money could be good if it your own business assuming clients are breaking Rods and Loosing baits left and right that could get expensive quick not to mention boat maintence and what not.... |
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Posts: 1828
| The opinions with which I agreed basically all say the same thing: let the market sort it out.
Owner should lay out his expectations. He's free to fire the guide(s) if they continue the unwanted practices.
If the after-hours fishing has adverse effects on customers' success, the guide, resort owner, and customers all share the losses, but I think it will be realized in the guide's pockets before the resort owner's.
It's not a moral issue. Come on. |
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Guides Fishing Spots