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Location: Eagan, MN | Porpoisers... Generally, thought to be nearly uncatchable. With only a couple of exceptions, that's been my experience as well. So, who's actually caught a musky after seeing the fish porpoise? How did you trigger the bite? Brian |
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Posts: 132
| Are you talking about when they have their head out of the water? Or are you talking about them 'finning' with back and tail out of the water?
I have caught quite a few 'finners' (15-20 I would say). I typically get them on topwaters, but have caught a few on bucktails.
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| If they are swimming along like they are "gulping air" I've yet to find a way to get them to do anything. If they are on top and more "on the prowl" then I chuck a cast their way with a topwater or bucktail and they almost always follow and usually with aggression. |
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Location: Chisholm, MN | Brad P - 9/19/2016 9:28 AM
If they are swimming along like they are "gulping air" I've yet to find a way to get them to do anything. If they are on top and more "on the prowl" then I chuck a cast their way with a topwater or bucktail and they almost always follow and usually with aggression.
Huh, well I must be doing something wrong! They don't follow me very often! |
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Location: Lake Country, Wisconsin | If you see a "finner" as the above poster said, extremely common to get action from them. I'd say 75% of the time for me it results in a follow/strike/catch in some capacity. That's usually the sign of an active, excited fish
Haven't seen enough of the head out of the water fish, but the few I have I couldn't do anything with either.
Edited by Musky Brian 9/19/2016 10:57 AM
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| Kirby Budrow - 9/19/2016 10:37 AM
Brad P - 9/19/2016 9:28 AM
If they are swimming along like they are "gulping air" I've yet to find a way to get them to do anything. If they are on top and more "on the prowl" then I chuck a cast their way with a topwater or bucktail and they almost always follow and usually with aggression.
Huh, well I must be doing something wrong! They don't follow me very often!
Me too! I always asumed those were the ones that already had a meal and its their play time. |
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Location: Chisholm, MN | Wait...some of you are saying exactly the opposite of what I've experienced throughout my 18 years of muskie fishing! How can this be? I have casted at every one of those porpoisers, and maybe get 5% of them to look at the bait. I have never caught one that way, but I have heard of a few caught that way. In my experience, I see this happening MOSTLY on a bluebird morning, flat calm and very little action.
Side note: I can't even think of a time I've seen a porpoiser this year. Kind of strange.
Edited by Kirby Budrow 9/19/2016 11:00 AM
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Location: Contrarian Island | have had some hit over the years but % is low... prop bait topwaters have had all the hits .. also agree w Kirby, this year I haven't seen nearly as many as usual... did see one last week we got to eat a topwater tho
Edited by BNelson 9/19/2016 11:08 AM
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Posts: 833
| I will say that the ones that I get to be active are typically swimming around on top around a solunar event. That happened on Leech this year, saw a fish "finning" on top, chucked a bucktail in her vicinity and she came in hard. Went around the 8 a few times, nipped the bait, but didn't get hooks. Fish followed at almost exactly Moon Overhead.
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Posts: 720
| On the Detroit River, seeing those lift their head out and then dive is a very solid indicator of a good day. See no risers and it will often be tough. You may not catch those individual fish but it will be a good day usually. |
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Location: On the O | Last year on the Larry a buddy pointed out infront of the boat to a Muskie just casually swimming along. We all watched as it got spooked once it saw the boat and dove down. Not 10 seconds later one of the rods went off and we had one really similiar sized fish in the boat. We all agreed it had to be the same fish....maybe the secret is trolling for them!! But don't tell anyone.
Edited by BigC 9/19/2016 11:48 AM
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Posts: 1939
Location: Black Creek, WI | I have not had any success casting at porpoisers. I have had success when they break the surface in a feeding activity. You can't predict when a porpoiser will appear... so I just make a cast to them if I can reach them and see what happens. Beyond that, I ignore them. |
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| Side imaging and depth charges???? |
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Location: NE Wisconsin | I second Jason |
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Location: Northwest Chicago Burbs | I am ashamed at our user community. How long has this been up and not one bad joke about catching porpoises?
Someone call ToddM's Mom and have her check to make sure he's in his room doing his homework. |
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| Is this correct as it relates to Muskies?
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Location: On the X that marks the mucky spot | 2 words: Weagle Baby!
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Posts: 576
Location: Elk Grove Village, IL & Phillips, WI | mnmusky has it down! |
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| Put me in the 0 action in A LOT of hours and 20+ years on porpoising muskies. I am pretty surprised at the number of guys that are saying that they have gotten action from them to be honest. |
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| ^^^^^^ what he said |
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Location: Lake Country, Wisconsin | Had one just as recent as last week in southern WI, really nice one too. She kindly told me I was casting on the complete wrong side of the weedline as I just happened to look over my back shoulder and see a tail and back motoring up for a second. Flung a cast out and she she shot right up and danced at my feet for a few turns before sinking away. |
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Posts: 132
| I had the same thing happen a couple weeks ago. Looked over my shoulder and saw a tail come out of the water. Bombed a topwater out just past her, she came right in and chowed at the boat - 50"er. |
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Posts: 115
| Ive caught 1 porpoiser in probably about 100 sighted porpoisers that ive casted at. Ive also seen them porpoise and a few minutes later hooked up. Was it the porpoiser that bit? No idea, but it was in the same spot.This is all on your home lake dunlap. I think its really low percentage to get action from them, but it does happen. |
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Location: central illinois | Never caught a fish that "porpoised" tried many times. I don't even bother with it anymore. Any guest I have with me will focus on the fish that "porpoised." It gets them excited just like it did to me years ago. I have caught a couple out in the middle of the lake actively feeding. One was a personal best from a lake I fish. Also caught one sunning itself but it was around 30 inches. Not saying "porpoising" fish can't be caught but I just don't even bother to try now. |
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| In clear water lakes, we are 100% on getting follows from porpoising fish and have caught probably 25%.
On stained water... I have never gotten one to strike and I am unsure of any follows. Mostly river fish.
The stained water fish do not seem to be porpoising the same way as the clear water, lake fish.
Whatever the lake fish are doing is obviously making them super sensitive to lure activity.
Maybe the quick change from one world to the next is somewhat of a relief 
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Posts: 1636
| As far as triggering the fish in clear water... I have had my best luck with bucktails and crankbaits reeling them straight in without any jerks or twitches at a speed I do not feel is slow or fast... Just a normal retrieve to get the bait doing what you think it should do. I have not done well with any consistency while ripping the heck out of anything at any point in time in my entire life to be honest.
Good post... I like it! |
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| Porpoising Muskies seem to enjoy watching me fish and that's about it. |
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| 0 for a bunch. Whack the occasional fish boiling up on the surface, but I'm pretty sure those are feeding. I still cast at 'em anyway. Have to. Tried pretending I never saw them, but that never works.
Always wondered if they do that to help swallow a meal and that's why they never respond...
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| I almost feel like we aren't all on the same exact terms simply by how different some peoples experiences are. Fish that are cruising around with their fins out are almost always caught for me. They are hot and active fish.
Porpoising fish however (usually on super calm days) I consider to be ones that just break surface briefly with their back fins... I seen several do it last weekend and probably close to 20 this season with zero action from any. Most were seen on multiple fish days too. Now multiply that exact same result by 13-14 years of musky fishing. One lazy follow is the only action I've ever gotten from dozens and dozens of porpoising fish. |
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Posts: 299
| I see a lot of this in Canada. Over the years we've had many follow, caught some, and truly believe caused a bunch to go into their porpoising act.
Those sunny calm days really bring them up, especially in the community spots where theirs multiple fish constantly harased with baits. Repeated casts dragging them off the structures and then eventually they start porpoising behind you in the open water like their ticked off now and taunting you. No way those ones are biting anything!
Edited by Fishboy19 9/22/2016 10:52 AM
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| Its a time of year and location thing for me. In open water (early) I have had good success getting porpoisers to bite because they are feeding high. Same thing in the fall when they are chasing bait, shallow on rocks. For me it happens quite often, could be a body of water thing too. |
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| CPRAPIG - 9/22/2016 10:54 AM
Its a time of year and location thing for me. In open water (early) I have had good success getting porpoisers to bite because they are feeding high. Same thing in the fall when they are chasing bait, shallow on rocks. For me it happens quite often, could be a body of water thing too.
I think it must be a body of water thing, too. |
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Location: MN | Try switching baits, they aren't going to bite the one that they just saw on the end of your line. 
I've caught a couple on top water that porpoised near the boat. They seemed like they were cruising between spots or moving shallow from the deeps. The ones that stick their heads straight out of the water I never have any action on. Last year I fished 14 hours without even a follow. On the way back to the launch I almost hit one that had it's head straight out of the water. Sometimes I think they are just messing with me. |
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| speed! |
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| Oddly enough, we got a porpoiser to eat on Friday... TWICE. Buddy spotted the fish. Wasn't swimming around with it's head out like a beaver, it just did a classic porpoise surface. Slowly broke the surface nose first, then back, and tail slid down.
On about the third cast it ate the tail of my bulldawg boatside. Buddy casted back with a cowgirl and it ate that. It pulled him off balance while trying to walk it around the trolling motor and he lost it due to a straight rod. Big one too.
First time I/we've ever gotten any attention from a fish that surfaced nearby. But the muskies were going suicidal Friday so that played a part, I'm sure. |
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Location: Grand Rapids, MI | Agree with others, not everyone is on the same page here. The ones I call porpoising fish are the ones that come up to gulp some air and head down burping a trail of bubbles. These fish appear to be forcing air into their swim bladder so they can go deep. They're always negative and rarely follow, I can only think of a few that have been caught in the last 30+ years and those were all on a burned bucktail and were usually the only fish caught or seen those days.
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Posts: 219
| Caught 3 in 27 years of musky fishing. a 48 on a suick (Cass), a 44 on a depth raider (LOTW), and a 34" on a bulldawg (Cave Run, KY).... throw at everyone I see....
My 2-cents.
Ross |
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| Will Schultz - 9/26/2016 11:45 AM Agree with others, not everyone is on the same page here. The ones I call porpoising fish are the ones that come up to gulp some air and head down burping a trail of bubbles. These fish appear to be forcing air into their swim bladder so they can go deep. They're always negative and rarely follow, I can only think of a few that have been caught in the last 30+ years and those were all on a burned bucktail and were usually the only fish caught or seen those days.
Wondering why a fish would gulp air into their swim bladder to go deep? Wouldn't that make it harder for them? I'd think they'd gulp air to gain buoyancy. I interpret gulping fish as wanting to remain near the surface, perhaps to warm/cool/get increased oxygen/relax, i.e., not feeding. I've never gotten one to be interested in anything, either. |
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| I would agree that Muskellunge were porpoising in order to go deep... IF they were not doing it in a river that is about 1-2 feet deep for the majority of it's entirety - often.
Sometimes... I like to believe they are simply coming up to have a look around.
I think we may need to increase the number of posts allowed on each web page |
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| Until we can ask one..
I always figured maybe they were trying to help force down a big meal. Might explain why you rarely get them to react and why those days when you see them are usually pretty dead. You just missed the feeding window... |
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| Anyone ever go fishing without seeing a Muskellunge porpoise the entire day... only to have one follow... then, have it start porpoising around the boat?
This has happened on Lake of the Woods and a smaller Illinois lake.
I wonder if it has happened anywhere else in the universe...?!
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| Chemi - 9/26/2016 5:46 PM
Will Schultz - 9/26/2016 11:45 AM Agree with others, not everyone is on the same page here. The ones I call porpoising fish are the ones that come up to gulp some air and head down burping a trail of bubbles. These fish appear to be forcing air into their swim bladder so they can go deep. They're always negative and rarely follow, I can only think of a few that have been caught in the last 30+ years and those were all on a burned bucktail and were usually the only fish caught or seen those days.
Wondering why a fish would gulp air into their swim bladder to go deep? Wouldn't that make it harder for them? I'd think they'd gulp air to gain buoyancy. I interpret gulping fish as wanting to remain near the surface, perhaps to warm/cool/get increased oxygen/relax, i.e., not feeding. I've never gotten one to be interested in anything, either.
In order to remain neutrally buoyant in deeper water (higher pressure), they'd have to start with a larger (more inflated) bladder before diving down.
Let's say a fish has body volume of 1 ft^3 (this is a huge musky, world record) with a swim bladder that makes up (for example) 0.02 ft^3 of that volume while near the surface (air bladder pressure is barely above atmospheric).
If that fish wants to go hang out 34 ft down, it will want to double its swim bladder volume (by taking in air) before diving. After gulping air, it would temporarily tend to float ever so slightly before diving to the depths where pressure is about 2 atmospheres - where its swim bladder would be compressed to half its pre-depth volume - where its overall body volume is restored to that 1.00 ft^3 for neutral buoyancy.
Now, I don't even know if fish gulp air, but if they do for buoyancy purposes, that would be why. |
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Location: Alex or Alek? | esoxaddict - 9/26/2016 6:59 PM
I always figured maybe they were trying to help force down a big meal. You just missed the feeding window...
^ This is what I have always though/heard about the ones that stick their whole head out taking a gulp of air. |
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| I bet everyone who has commented... is correct when it comes to one time or another |
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Location: Kronenwetter, WI | I have seen this many times in shallow lakes when the water temps are above 75 degrees...(no I won't fish if they reach 80 or nearly 80).this usually happens once the air temps drop below the water temps....essentially they are radiating body heat...i.e. Without deep deep water to escape the warmth, they porpoise into the cooler air. In these cases this usually happens right while the sun is setting. I have found these fish to be very very catchable. They've laid dormant all day waiting to cool off and hit the buffet line. Sounds unbelievable, but last season I caught 5 in two hours under northern nights and lost two others (yes---best two hours fishing of my life). For these fish I lob mag dawgs, slowly lift rod to 12 o'clock, reel down and repeat.
Edited by Cowboyhannah 9/27/2016 9:46 PM
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| Gar lift their heads and dive in the exact same manner. I wonder if they have the same system. |
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Location: Grand Rapids, MI | Chemi - 9/26/2016 6:46 PM Wondering why a fish would gulp air into their swim bladder to go deep? Wouldn't that make it harder for them? I'd think they'd gulp air to gain buoyancy. As noted the additional gasses in the swim bladder are necessary to remain stabilized at depth. I see them gulp and then burp on their way down, which provides the correct amount of gasses in their swim bladder once they reach depth. Reelwise - 9/26/2016 7:41 PM I would agree that Muskellunge were porpoising in order to go deep... IF they were not doing it in a river that is about 1-2 feet deep for the majority of it's entirety - often. Sometimes... I like to believe they are simply coming up to have a look around. I think we may need to increase the number of posts allowed on each web page :) The swim bladder is for stabilization at any depth, in a current situation where additional stabilization would be beneficial I could see why they would maintain their swim bladder in the most effective state. This may explain why Bondy has noted days of good fishing when seeing fish porpoising. Bondy - 9/28/2016 7:41 AM Gar lift their heads and dive in the exact same manner. I wonder if they have the same system. Gar are a different animal altogether, muskies are able to exchange gasses in/out of their swim bladder but that’s the only function. Gar have the ability for their swim bladder to function like lungs and not just stabilization. |
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| Will... I was not saying what you said was wrong. I'm just saying, that is not the case every time. Especially if the water is only 2 ft deep. There is no "deep" to swim down to. They literally porpoise... only to come down and rest just below the surface.
Everyone might not be on your page, but they are on a page that allows for discussion - with relevant information and facts based on realistic actions and time that really took place.
I'm not sure we can end it with... 'everyone is confused and this is exactly why these fish are doing what they are doing.' |
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| I appreciate your willingness to share information with the masses, Will. |
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Location: Grand Rapids, MI | Reelwise - 9/28/2016 11:11 AM Will... I was not saying what you said was wrong. I'm just saying, that is not the case every time. Especially if the water is only 2 ft deep. There is no "deep" to swim down to. Didn't think that at all. Just offering some reasoning on, if they are porpoising to adjust their swim bladder, why they would do it for better stabilization even in a shallow river situation. I think it's safe to say that not all surfacing fish are doing it to adjust their swim bladder. It's my opinion that the fish porpoising to adjust their swim bladder are specifically the ones that are nearly uncatchable.
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| I agree with what you said not only due to the fact that there is scientific and realistic reasoning behind it, but myself and I'm sure just about every Muskellunge angler who has caught a fish or has had a fish follow out over deep, open water - has seen just how tough it appears to be for them to swim back down and out of sight.
Good luck getting them to come back up after they try with all their might to get back down - nose first in a perfect, vertical position. *Over deep, deep water that is. ...fishing
Edited by Reelwise 9/28/2016 12:23 PM
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| Got a few porpoisering fish to hit on jerkbaits. Yet some have ignored the baits, like the one yesterday. |
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Location: Black Creek, WI | Will Schultz - 9/28/2016 10:45 AM I think it's safe to say that not all surfacing fish are doing it to adjust their swim bladder. It's my opinion that the fish porpoising to adjust their swim bladder are specifically the ones that are nearly uncatchable. I'm in the same camp as Will. |
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Location: Eagan, MN | Some tracking studies suggest muskies go deep to feed and shallower to digest. If that is the case, and porpoising muskies are gulping air to go deeper (perhaps to feed), then why don't we catch more of them? My experience is that muskies seem to porpoise most often early in the a.m., then again right around dusk, particularly during the warm water periods. I can recall being on top of one shallow reef at dusk, seeing no fish, then muskies in great numbers started porpoising all around me. None of them followed or struck when we cast to them. If they are gulping air to go deeper, the reason doesn't seem to be because they are hungry and ready to feed. Seeking more comfortable/stable water temps perhaps as the upper level of the water column cools in the late evening/night? Still, why are they so turned-off generally speaking? A mystery I'd love to solve... |
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Location: Grand Rapids, MI | BrianF. - 9/29/2016 3:09 PM Some tracking studies suggest muskies go deep to feed and shallower to digest. Sorry to change the subject a little but I've always wondered if those making this statement got this assumption backward. What if they were shallow to warm their body so they could return to colder water where they could hunt more effectively? Endothermic fish such as bluefin tuna are able to swim faster and farther than other fish. I realize muskies are not going to be able to maintain this warmer core temperature from being in shallow/warmer water for an extended period but if only for a short period it would still enable them to be faster and for their brain/eye functions to be better.
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Location: Black Creek, WI | Well... my BST has always been that they gulp air to fill their air bladder AFTER feeding deep to help them "float" higher in the water column to enjoy the warmer water there. The warmer water increases metabolism to help digest that meal they just ate at a greater depth.... and provides the muscle recovery Will references with his Tuna example. Thus, I blow them off as "impossible" to catch since they are tired from feeding and no longer hungry since they just ate. Once the shallow recovery process is done (or getting close to done) the fish are now more catchable... and do not have a need to gulp air (so they do not porpoise and we do not see them).
Edited by jlong 9/30/2016 9:15 AM
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| Will Schultz - 9/30/2016 9:36 AM BrianF. - 9/29/2016 3:09 PM Some tracking studies suggest muskies go deep to feed and shallower to digest. Sorry to change the subject a little but I've always wondered if those making this statement got this assumption backward. What if they were shallow to warm their body so they could return to colder water where they could hunt more effectively? Endothermic fish such as bluefin tuna are able to swim faster and farther than other fish. I realize muskies are not going to be able to maintain this warmer core temperature from being in shallow/warmer water for an extended period but if only for a short period it would still enable them to be faster and for their brain/eye functions to be better.
I believe the scientists got it right.
On the middle Fox River located in Illinois, Muskellunge will indeed move into a shallow, cold water creek during the summer.
The creek is almost always 67 degrees in the summer while the river can go from 70 degrees in the early morning and sometimes reach the mid 80's by late afternoon.
I believe the Muskellunge may be digesting food when they move into the creek, considering the mouth of the creek I am referring to is where we will catch most of the fish during this time of the year. If not the mouth of the creek... we catch them in the main river.
I would think we would catch them in the creek more often if they were moving in to feed rather than digest or simply enjoy the cooler water. Up to a dozen Muskellunge will move into this creek at once and most of the time - they will sit on the bottom, face upstream, and ignore every lure that swims past them. Once in a while... they will react, but it is rare compared to the action we normally get in the river.
They seem to want to feed in the warm river more often than not... while they appear to be chillin' in the cold, shallow creek water. Maybe this only applies to river Muskellunge? There have been quite a few tracking studies on rivers. They are, indeed - river fish What do you think, Will? |
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| I want to throw in there that this creek is sometimes full of Shad and Suckers... The Muskellunge just do not seem interested in feeding in the creek as often as the river - even through the creek can hold a ton of fish at once.
Sometimes I slip the boat in just to watch... |
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Location: Grand Rapids, MI | Reelwise - 9/30/2016 11:12 AM Will Schultz - 9/30/2016 9:36 AM BrianF. - 9/29/2016 3:09 PM Some tracking studies suggest muskies go deep to feed and shallower to digest. Sorry to change the subject a little but I've always wondered if those making this statement got this assumption backward. What if they were shallow to warm their body so they could return to colder water where they could hunt more effectively? Endothermic fish such as bluefin tuna are able to swim faster and farther than other fish. I realize muskies are not going to be able to maintain this warmer core temperature from being in shallow/warmer water for an extended period but if only for a short period it would still enable them to be faster and for their brain/eye functions to be better.
I believe the scientists got it right. On the middle Fox River located in Illinois, Muskellunge will indeed move into a shallow, cold water creek during the summer.
The creek is almost always 67 degrees in the summer while the river can go from 70 degrees in the early morning and sometimes reach the mid 80's by late afternoon.
I believe the Muskellunge may be digesting food when they move into the creek, considering the mouth of the creek I am referring to is where we will catch most of the fish during this time of the year. If not the mouth of the creek... we catch them in the main river.
I would think we would catch them in the creek more often if they were moving in to feed rather than digest or simply enjoy the cooler water. Up to a dozen Muskellunge will move into this creek at once and most of the time - they will sit on the bottom, face upstream, and ignore every lure that swims past them. Once in a while... they will react, but it is rare compared to the action we normally get in the river.
They seem to want to feed in the warm river more often than not... while they appear to be chillin' in the cold, shallow creek water. Maybe this only applies to river Muskellunge? There have been quite a few tracking studies on rivers. They are, indeed - river fish What do you think, Will? This sounds like fish trying to be in a more comfortable water temperature with higher DO and not really about feeding or digesting. However, if they're feeding out in the warmer water and coming into the cooler water to digest this would again mean the assumption of the scientists that they digest in shallow warm water and feed in deep cool water wasn't accurate.
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| Where is it posted that the scientists said anything about water temperature? It must not have loaded. If it's not there... nice try? lol
I believe they are correct (at times) considering a lot of the shallow fish remain stationary for long periods of time and appear to be chilling or 'waiting' for something. Even the deep water fish come up into the upper levels of the water column over deep water and just 'chill.'
The stationary, shallow fish sometimes require a little more finesse (this could include slow, erratic twitching with large lures or hitting every square inch of water with a bucktail) than open water fish. I mean this as in... The strike zone for shallow water fish sometimes tends to be a lot smaller when fish appear to be chilling or are in an "ambush spot" while open water fish sometimes appear to come from a distance and are more willing to hit lures being brought in with a straight retrieve or trolled at a consistent and sometimes fast speed as far as how much ground is being covered.
Is this ALL contradictory when we talk about other locations in the known universe where Muskellunge exist? How about when we talk about the most important aspect of them all? Time...
Absolutely... everything is a contradiction...
UNLESS - we add location and artificial influence to the equation... along with a billion other things that can and will happen.
Not to mention the idea that most people spend a lot of their time fishing in shallow water.
We have to take more into consideration before we say somebody is wrong.
So, they are right, because they are not wrong... but, they are not right - all the time.
Like you said, Will... comfort. It always plays a role. I believe Muskellunge are seeking out water temperatures based on personal comfort and are simply reacting based on how they intercept the signals being put out by things we consider to be artificial, predatory fish food. I do not believe Muskellunge simply follow the forage.
Are they really hunting at all?
Or, are they scavengers who just so happen to eat live organisms?
Vultures like it hot and go to the food when the time calls for it.
Fish can literally be anywhere they can swim.
You would be surprised when it comes to what you can catch up a creek. |
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| I'll break it down before someone else does it
REASONING...
One more question:
What is the reasoning for each and every action within every single instance within each occurrence in every situation and how do you compare those reasons to the others?
Love you guys. |
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| This begs the question we're all wondering. What kind of drugs are you on? |
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| LOL!
Not a drug in my system... Just to throw it out there. |
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Location: Grand Rapids, MI | The Eagle and Wabigoon studies lead way to assumptions that these fish moved to shallow/warmer water to digest. It's got nothing to do with it being specifically shallow only that it's warmer. It's also been argued that it doesn't make sense physiologically that they would want to move to warmer water because this would increase their metabolism and therefore speed digestion decreasing the time between necessary feeding. Apex predators generally don't work harder but work more efficiently.
Much like the origin of this thread it seems like we're talking about two different things now, fish being shallow in a creek for comfort vs. the statement that was made about fish moving shallow (warmer water) to digest. |
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| Keep an open mind and realize that these fish in the creek/river are mainly reacting to water temperature at certain times of the year. If it is all about comfort - please explain to me why this creek can be completely empty at 67 degrees when the river is a good 90?
The creek/river observation that was stored inside a brain based on what was perceived visually - relates to this discussion in so many ways. If you look into this example a little more... you will indeed - see a much larger picture. I know you can do it. Maybe even experience it for yourself? I can give you directions.
I see what you mean, though... and I did expect this sort of response from you. I assume that it can be hard for some to accept that someone you said was wrong, was indeed, correct about a lot of things. The subject was never changed... I am trying to expand the discussion by throwing out other ideas... I just so happened to accidentally challenge you by bringing up a realistic observation based on realistic occurrences. What was seen goes against your question is all... I still did not say you were wrong.
The scientists were not wrong and never will be considering a lot of their documentation is based on realistic events and actions related to their unique study. So what if it can not be applied to every single body of water... they are not wrong as long as their findings are true.
Hope you do not take this the wrong way... I tried to tell you that I agreed with you AND them. A Muskellunge is not a Muskellunge no matter where you put it. These fish have personality and if you stick around long enough and encounter the same fish long enough... you just might be able to recognize them and eventually be able to call them by the name you or someone else might give them
Alright... I'm done. I meant well, Will. You are one of many who have put in a lot of time and your willingness to share your thoughts in the public forum to this day - is respected. |
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| I will see you again, Will. I hope you would like to talk... because, I would love to listen. I think we are all on point here... I just throw too many variables into the mix far too often. I believe everything relates and when I am talking to people with the experience you and others have... I am inspired and usually have a lot of ideas going through my head. Trust me, it's all good and I can draw a pretty good picture. I appreciate your time |
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| Wow!!!! |
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| Had 60 degree water temp this past weekend. Probably seen 7-8 porpoising muskies. Some that were porpoising quite often. More than I normally see and I spend ALOT of time on the water. Was marking bait balls on my electronics around this activity. Did not get one to react to lures. Amd had plenty of time to try different lures. |
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Location: Grand Rapids, MI | It's all good. I also never said anyone was wrong, we just make assumptions based on data and observations. When it comes to behaviors we'll never really know and can only make an educated guess why these fish do what they do. I wish I could truly know everything about these fish but the more I think I understand, the more I realize that I really don't understand. They do what they want when they want all we can hope is there are a few on a given day doing what we want them to be doing. |
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| I meant directions to the spot, also. lol... Was not saying I need to do anything out of the ordinary for you to experience Muskellunge sitting in a creek and come to a conclusion as to what in the world they are doing on earth at that particular moment in time
Oh man... I love MuskieFIRST. |
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Location: North St. Paul, MN | I just realized there is an "ignore this poster," option. Thank goodness! |
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| I promise I will try and be able to help out more and in a better way some day. |
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Location: Black Creek, WI | I believe fish Thermoregulate... and may explain some of the fish movements and habits we encounter with muskies. Question: how often do you observe "porpoisers" during cold water periods when there is very little temperature gradient in the water column? For me personally, it is very rare if at all. Does this tell us anything about why fish porpoise? |
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Location: Eagan, MN | Seems this thread has morphed from 'how to trigger bites from porpoisers' to 'why they porpoise'. That's okay with me because I think we can all agree porpoising is fascinating behavior.JLong, that muskies thermoregulate is undisputed. The fact muskies porpoise most frequently in the warm water period, when there is the highest level of thermal stratification in the water column, would suggest the behavior may be linked to thermoregulation. Still, even if this is true, we seem to have raised more questions than answers. Are they gulping air to stabilize themselves in warmer shallower water?? Or, is that deeper water?? Certainly, they often seem to leave a bubble trail as they slowly swim down, but do they always 'gulp' air when they porpoise? Is the air they gulp warmer and part of their thermoregulation?? What I've noticed about porpoisers is that they often tend to show this behavior quite close to the boat and have wondered if the fish wasn't simply curious as to what was going on above the water's surface, not dissimiliar to whales that 'spy hop'. We know muskies, like many other fish, are curious creatures. Still, none of this seems to rationally explain why so few will give chase and bite at the time they porpoise. Can we anglers return to these fish later and have angling success?? After dark perhaps? Or other prime times such as weather changes, solunar events, etc? So far, my own results have answered that question with a resounding 'no'. Brian
Edited by BrianF. 10/5/2016 2:13 PM
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| That is what is up. Awesome posts!
In late fall, the first storm will bring a lot of deep water fish to the shallows. This can be shallow water or they suspend high in the water column. This seems to happen during the first storm system of the season.. usually the first, big storm. These fish are extremely active and will generally follow anything and everything you throw at them... and hit, too. The wood fish become weed fish and the deep fish become fish that just roam the shallows all over the place. The wood just seems to be absent of life during this time... but, the strange thing is... they move back into the wood soon after the storms pass. Not really all that strange, though... that wood heats up when the clouds clear
Hurricanes...
Change in pressure and water temperature...?!
In rivers... they seem to porpoise during the hottest times during the summer with things happening in the evening when the water temperature begins to fall. These are most likely the fish that spend the majority of the day in a creek that is a consistent 67 degrees all summer long while the river fluctuates between 70 and 90 degrees. Sometimes the river can literally go from 70 degrees to 90 degrees from morning to evening and actually start to drop again before nightfall. As far as ways to trigger a reaction from these fish, they do not seem to be very active.
At random times during the warm-water season... we have gone an entire outing or trip without seeing a single fish porpoise... and then, we get a follow - and that fish begins to porpoise around the boat only to never follow again or even react to our lures as far as I know.
It seems like pressure fish are willing to bite... and temperature fish are less willing.
It makes sense... There are a lot of times when we have brought up big fish over open water. If they decide to go back down... they do not come back up if they struggle to get back down. So, in this case... temperature and pressure comes into play.
When we force fish out of their comfort zone, the change is instant...
The changes caused by the storm... it's a slower transition in both aspects |
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| Sorry for repeating a couple things... You guys brought up some good stuff and I wanted to include a few things.
A lot can be learned by comparing the behaviors of each and every single fish from as many bodies of water as possible. |
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Location: Black Creek, WI | BrianF, I only ask the question WHY they may be poropoising... in an effort to understand why those fish seem so difficult to catch. To me, it appears the porpoising activity is related to an environment change and they are preparing themselves for it. The environment change is presumably both a depth and temperature change. During summer when lakes stratify or have a large temperature gradient, the fish encounter more "change" when they move about their environment. They can feed on cooler water forage yet take advantage of warmer water temperatures afterwards for both metabolism/digestion benefits and muscle recovery/preparation for their next hunt (in deeper, cooler water). After turnover, I rarely see muskies porpoise. I'm guessing its because the environment is now the same from top to bottom. A fish can feed deep and stay deep... as going shallow no longer provides the benefits of warmer water. Thus, there is less environment change... and less need to regulate their swim bladder (IE: Porpoise to gulp air) in the fall vs summer. Back to why porpoisers seem to be so difficult to catch. Its my belief that they are doing it just AFTER feeding and they are preparing to seek out a comfort spot to thermoregulate. A fish that has a full belly is presumably more difficult to catch than one that is hungry. |
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| I wish a full belly stopped me from eating. |
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| Gulping air to inflate the swim bladder would make the fish more buoyant, and therefore make it more difficult for the fish to descend further into the water column. It would compensate for the pressure at the depths where they are headed to feed, but that doesn't explain why they are not catchable. If they're setting up to scour the the depths in search of a meal, they'd be eating, or at the very least chasing lures.
A possible explanation is that they are regulating their swim bladder to offset the effects of feeding (i.e. chasing food to the surface) Stands to reason - we find a lot of saltwater fish (mainly grouper) with distended stomachs after being brought up from the deep. The rapid ascent causes the swim bladder to expand faster than they can regulate it.
Another, simpler explanation is that they just ate a large meal. Filling the stomach with a bit too much food will compress (deflate) the swim bladder and cause buoyancy issues. It's common in many species of fish and can be caused by eating too much.
So that's my theory - they just ate, and need to re-adjust their swim bladders either from the act of feeding or the size of the meal they just ate.
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Location: MN | Reelwise - 10/5/2016 4:58 PM
At random times during the warm-water season... we have gone an entire outing or trip without seeing a single fish porpoise... and then, we get a follow - and that fish begins to porpoise around the boat only to never follow again or even react to our lures as far as I know.
I have seen that behavior a couple times too.
jlong - 10/6/2016 8:33 AM
To me, it appears the porpoising activity is related to an environment change and they are preparing themselves for it. The environment change is presumably both a depth and temperature change. During summer when lakes stratify or have a large temperature gradient, the fish encounter more "change" when they move about their environment. They can feed on cooler water forage yet take advantage of warmer water temperatures afterwards for both metabolism/digestion benefits and muscle recovery/preparation for their next hunt (in deeper, cooler water)
If that is the case, why is the behavior less common with pike? Do they simply move less / have a smaller, more homogeneous home range? Is there a physiological difference that would account for the porpoising or lack there of? |
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Location: Black Creek, WI | Pike are a cold water specie... and Muskies are a warm water specie. Perhaps you don't see pike porpoising because they do not thermoregulate like a muskie does? Those pike that are feeding deep simply stay deep while a musky will move shallow after feeding deep (in colder water) to enjoy the benefits of a warmer environment (ie. thermoregulation). Just a BST of course. |
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Location: MN | Seems reasonable. I like your theory because it makes sense of your observation about lack of porpoising after turnover. That could also potentially be lower temps --> lower activity. A couple follow up questions (for anyone):
On shallow lakes or lakes/rivers with enough current to avoid stratification, do you not see porpoising during the summer?
Are there examples of lakes with muskies where they seem to never porpoise? What are the characteristics of those lakes? Anything make them atypical?
Anyone know of any tracking studies done on pike? Something analogous to the Eagle lake study. |
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Location: Grand Rapids, MI | I've never thought of the porpoisers going deep to feed, I've always thought of them as negative fish that are going deep to find cooler water that's closer to their comfort range. Maybe it's because they just ate something, maybe it's because there's not enough O2 in the shallow water and they're heading to deeper more O2 rich water. |
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| Will Schultz - 10/6/2016 2:37 PM
I've never thought of the porpoisers going deep to feed, I've always thought of them as negative fish that are going deep to find cooler water that's closer to their comfort range. Maybe it's because they just ate something, maybe it's because there's not enough O2 in the shallow water and they're heading to deeper more O2 rich water.
That's a reasonable explanation, but if it was simply thermoregulation, wouldn't you get at least a few of them to eat? Maybe low O2 levels + heat stress overrides the desire to feed? |
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| Could they be tweeting,,and not watching where their going like when we sway over on the road shoulder. |
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| happy hooker - 10/6/2016 5:57 PM
Could they be tweeting,,and not watching where their going like when we sway over on the road shoulder.
Maybe they're checking to see of you're using the right rod and reel combo or wearing the right buff before they decide whether or not to eat your lure... |
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Location: minocqua, wi. | what size hooks would you use on a quick-strike rig if you wanted to target them with live bait? |
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| I had one stick it's head of the water and parallel the boat night fishing. I heard something on the bank so I shined my like up there to see what it was. Then out of curiosity shined my light down it the water for a few seconds then shut my light off. Not 5 seconds later I hear something and could faintly see it. Turn my light on and right where my light was shining there's a muskie with its head out of the water lol. That experience has always made me wonder if they are just seeing what's going on up there. |
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| jonnysled - 10/6/2016 9:27 PM
what size hooks would you use on a quick-strike rig if you wanted to target them with live bait?
That depends on whether you're using an HG or a PG. |
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| I have had a couple follow a burned supermodel. 1 I was able to convert in the 8 and that was a long time ago now. Compared to the how many I have casted at that is an abysmal conversion %. Some lakes the fish just seem to porpoise more. I figure its just about the only time you are 100% certain your bait is landing next to a fish but overall probably not worth it.
I really like the thermo regulation and air intake theories. Logical ideas with science backing them. I wonder if there is more detailed data available of the Elk Lake study that was reported on by In-Fisherman? The premise of that study was fascinating. The way they collected the data could potentially answer these questions?
The idea of the fish just coming up for a look at the air world is possible too. These fish are strange. A few trips before I caught the 1 porpoising fish I had a hot fish up on a burned supermodel. Fish was right up in the bush but just wouldn't eat. In the middle of a straightaway the fish suddenly stops, turns perpendicular to the side of the boat, and tips its tail down and the head comes partially out of the water with the eyes in the air. Sat like that for about 5 seconds staring at us and then paddled away. Bizarre experience. |
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Location: Aurora | happy hooker - 10/6/2016 5:57 PM
Could they be tweeting,,and not watching where their going like when we sway over on the road shoulder.
My guess is pikemon-go might be the culprit. |
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Location: oswego, il | Porpoising muskies are male muskies and are lost. They won't ask for directions. Cast to them, there is usually a very peeex off female just below them. |
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Location: Grand Rapids, MI | NickD - 10/7/2016 9:43 AM I wonder if there is more detailed data available of the Elk Lake study that was reported on by In-Fisherman? The premise of that study was fascinating. The way they collected the data could potentially answer these questions? The tracking there was just using standard sonic transmitters and there isn't any way to determine movements other than where the fish was at the time i was tracked from day to day. I don't think we're more than ten years away from having access to reasonably sized gps transmitters that will be able to track depth, temp, etc with constant recording. Once those are available it will expand our understanding exponentially.
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| I can tie balloons to a few river Muskies. Rivers are generally shallow and with feeder creeks coming in at different water temperatures - collecting relevant and legitimate data would be a piece of cake
Anyone interested in helping out? Would be a good time chasing them down when it comes time to remove the balloons.
Edited by Reelwise 10/7/2016 2:08 PM
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| Will Schultz - 10/7/2016 10:28 AM
NickD - 10/7/2016 9:43 AM I wonder if there is more detailed data available of the Elk Lake study that was reported on by In-Fisherman? The premise of that study was fascinating. The way they collected the data could potentially answer these questions? The tracking there was just using standard sonic transmitters and there isn't any way to determine movements other than where the fish was at the time i was tracked from day to day. I don't think we're more than ten years away from having access to reasonably sized gps transmitters that will be able to track depth, temp, etc with constant recording. Once those are available it will expand our understanding exponentially.
I thought they were tracking depth of fish with that as well. That's a bummer. I need to re-read that again. |
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Location: Grand Rapids, MI | NickD - 10/7/2016 4:00 PM Will Schultz - 10/7/2016 10:28 AM NickD - 10/7/2016 9:43 AM I wonder if there is more detailed data available of the Elk Lake study that was reported on by In-Fisherman? The premise of that study was fascinating. The way they collected the data could potentially answer these questions? The tracking there was just using standard sonic transmitters and there isn't any way to determine movements other than where the fish was at the time i was tracked from day to day. I don't think we're more than ten years away from having access to reasonably sized gps transmitters that will be able to track depth, temp, etc with constant recording. Once those are available it will expand our understanding exponentially.
I thought they were tracking depth of fish with that as well. That's a bummer. I need to re-read that again. Depth was recorded when fish were located by getting over the fish and using the fish finder on the tracking boat. Certainly not perfect but probably safe to assume the fish on the graph was the fish being tracked.
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