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Posts: 38
| So I've been doing a lot of research about leader materials...flouro, mono, single strand, 7-strand...and something I keep hearing over and over and over again is this:
"You gotta use Flouro otherwise the fish will see the leader and won't hit" (paraphrase)
So I got to thinking...you see, I'm a realist, I believe what I see and what I actually test/study, I then come to my conclusions. I do use other people's studies so long as the studies do not seem to be biased in any way.
So anyway, I got to thinking...the statement "You gotta use Flouro.." might be one of the most ridiculous statements we as fisherman (musky) have ever believed. Think about it. Have you ever really looked at the baits you are throwing? Most do not even look REMOTELY like a fish! Some have clown colors, things hanging and rattling from them, weird looking skirts, big huge treble hooks, and the list can go on and on...and do you REALLY think a fish is going to give a hoot about that very small diameter leader? There are only a small handfull of baits which I have seen that actually look like a fish, and even those are sporting some pretty massive treble hooks!
What about when you jam 3-4 ft of your heavy duty, thick musky poll in the water creating all kinds of noise/motion as you try to entice old Esox into biting on the figure eight?
Do we have ANY idea what a fish is thinking in terms of our leaders/baits? One thing is for sure, they must be really, really dumb if they think some of our baits are actually something to eat! Think about it! By the time a fish is 50", how many times have they seen a bucktail???!!
I think we believe things simply because it helps us have faith/confidence in what we are doing (i.e. if we use Flouro because fish can't see them, then we have faith that we have an added advantage and therefore we might fish harder "knowing" that the reason we aren't catching any fish is NOT because of our leader material). It's kind of along the lines of people who die...we believe we will see them again, believe they are in heaven, looking down on us, helping us, etc...you get the point.
So, let's think about what we say and believe. Yeah, I know, I got too much time on my hands, it's raining out and I can't go fishing. Just my 2 cents. Fish could care less about the material pulling your clown through the water and I don't believe for a second they see and react to any leader material. What proof do I have...none, no test study, nothing except years of fishing on all types of lakes and all types of baits and all types of leaders. Fish are not very smart when it comes to hitting our baits...of course, we have our own problems too!!
Fish on!
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Posts: 1937
Location: Black Creek, WI | Nice theory. I select my leader material for performance and functionality... not visibility or lack-there-of.  |
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Posts: 351
Location: Vilas County, WI | I like your post; And I agree.
I'm not on the flouro bandwagon. I use 7 strand and single strand... my fishing partner swears by flouro. We've caught a lot of fish together and usually I out fish him. I don't think the leaders made any difference.
I think the only time it matters is what type of bait you're throwing. For example, I use single strand for jerks and WTD baits to achieve better lure action. |
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Posts: 624
Location: S.W. WI | Solid wire only for me. Never failed me.
I've seen Flouro/Mono fail. I see no No reason to use it.
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Posts: 20212
Location: oswego, il | Can you post your test data? |
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Posts: 1901
Location: MN | poll/pole |
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Posts: 1767
Location: Lake Country, Wisconsin | From a visibility aspect, you are most likely correct that it is entirely overrated for those who seek it for less visibility. But for overall performance and strength, I prefer it |
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Posts: 38
| I should clarify...this post was NOT about Flouro vs Mono vs 7 strand, etc. I actually use Flouro but only because years ago I got a whole bunch of it because I couldn't think for myself and listened to what everyone else just told me ("fish can't see it").
So, I still use Flouro (both tied and crimped both without failure) and actually prefer Flouro over the others but ONLY because I can't stand how easily it seems the 7 strand gets all kinked after 1 or two fish (or so it seemed years ago...haven't use 7 strand in over a decade). Once I went to Flouro, I never seemed to have that problem.
I plan to try out Mono (yeah, I know a whole bunch of debate about that too) simply because I like to save money, and I can get a whole lot more mono vs Flouro for the same price. Might even try the 49 strand, 175 lb shark stuff!
By the way, one poster asked for "test data" and not sure if he was referring to me, but again, no test to prove what I am saying, but there are not tests to prove fish give a hoot about leader material. Only speculation on both ends but I believe my theory makes a WHOLE lot more sense.
Fish on brothers!
Edited by Steveessie 6/15/2016 1:32 PM
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Posts: 815
Location: Waukee, IA | I use fluoro strictly because I like how it doesn't kink easily. Does it's visibility (or lack of) help? Who knows? I just don't like twisted up leaders. |
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Posts: 705
Location: Alex or Alek? | tkuntz - 6/15/2016 1:45 PM
I use fluoro strictly because I like how it doesn't kink easily. Does it's visibility (or lack of) help? Who knows? I just don't like twisted up leaders.
x2. I just broke down and switched my bucktail rod to fluoro just because I got sick of pike kinking up my leader. |
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Posts: 1080
| Here's where I'm at on this topic of "leader visibility" to the fish.
Next time you're standing there, ready to cast out....hold your lure up in front of your face there....and look at the thickness/gauge of the three, metal treble hooks hanging off of that lure compared to the thickness/gauge of wire your leader material is made out of, and ask yourself if the leader is the only thing in that combination that is more aptly to turn a fish away from your artificial lure....
Moral of the story: Don't over think it. Go exactly with what JLong states: "I select my leader material for performance and functionality... not visibility or lack-there-of."
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Location: Contrarian Island | next someone will be asking about line color making a difference! |
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Posts: 1080
| Here's another scenario:
Casting dawgs up into and around the weeds one day....had a bad cast...got the dawg-ball...I knew it as it hit the water...bait landed in a clump of weed and fouled up with a rather large clump of weeds around the lure. Was approaching the Major on the clock at that moment, was working a nice area, wanted to reel that bait in as fast as I could to clean it off and get it back out there. Reeling the dawg-ball in with the clump of weeds wrapped around it as fast as I could....and in comes a hot muskie on it's tail, flares gills and inhales the bulldawg...with the salad. That fish wasn't even picky enough to even ask to have the salad dressing on the side.
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Posts: 1080
| BNelson - 6/15/2016 2:22 PM
next someone will be asking about line color making a difference!
I personally like the posts asking about what color shirt/clothes to wear...to blend in with the sky or not.
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Posts: 1144
Location: Minnesota. | Steveessie - 6/15/2016 12:39 PM
So I've been doing a lot of research about leader materials...flouro, mono, single strand, 7-strand...and something I keep hearing over and over and over again is this:
"You gotta use Flouro otherwise the fish will see the leader and won't hit" (paraphrase)
So I got to thinking...you see, I'm a realist, I believe what I see and what I actually test/study, I then come to my conclusions. I do use other people's studies so long as the studies do not seem to be biased in any way.
So anyway, I got to thinking...the statement "You gotta use Flouro.." might be one of the most ridiculous statements we as fisherman (musky) have ever believed. Think about it. Have you ever really looked at the baits you are throwing? Most do not even look REMOTELY like a fish! Some have clown colors, things hanging and rattling from them, weird looking skirts, big huge treble hooks, and the list can go on and on...and do you REALLY think a fish is going to give a hoot about that very small diameter leader? There are only a small handfull of baits which I have seen that actually look like a fish, and even those are sporting some pretty massive treble hooks!
What about when you jam 3-4 ft of your heavy duty, thick musky poll in the water creating all kinds of noise/motion as you try to entice old Esox into biting on the figure eight?
Do we have ANY idea what a fish is thinking in terms of our leaders/baits? One thing is for sure, they must be really, really dumb if they think some of our baits are actually something to eat! Think about it! By the time a fish is 50", how many times have they seen a bucktail???!!
I think we believe things simply because it helps us have faith/confidence in what we are doing (i.e. if we use Flouro because fish can't see them, then we have faith that we have an added advantage and therefore we might fish harder "knowing" that the reason we aren't catching any fish is NOT because of our leader material). It's kind of along the lines of people who die...we believe we will see them again, believe they are in heaven, looking down on us, helping us, etc...you get the point.
So, let's think about what we say and believe. Yeah, I know, I got too much time on my hands, it's raining out and I can't go fishing. Just my 2 cents. Fish could care less about the material pulling your clown through the water and I don't believe for a second they see and react to any leader material. What proof do I have...none, no test study, nothing except years of fishing on all types of lakes and all types of baits and all types of leaders. Fish are not very smart when it comes to hitting our baits...of course, we have our own problems too!!
Fish on!
My thoughts 'zackly!
Just goes to show how all of this stuff is for the birds as long as you......fish a Suick!..............................................
Edited by Jeremy 6/15/2016 2:32 PM
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Posts: 1348
Location: Pewaukee, WI | "I use fluoro strictly because I like how it doesn't kink easily. Does it's visibility (or lack of) help? Who knows? I just don't like twisted up leaders."
X2! |
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Location: Sawyer County, WI | MACK - 6/15/2016 2:26 PM
I personally like the posts asking about what color shirt/clothes to wear...to blend in with the sky or not.
I find that many choose loud colored sponsor jerseys and buffs. They say it doesn't affect catch rates, but it announces to all on the water that you're a real pro.
Edited by dfkiii 6/15/2016 3:20 PM
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| I ounce sean a guy wareing all blue, pants shirt hat and buff. He claimed his catch rait doubled after switching over two all blue. Worst part was it was overcast this particular day. |
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Posts: 72
| I have been using silver seven strand since buying George Wahls leaders 25 years ago and still have about a dozen new but have started making my own and spray paint black bands on the leaders to break it up. Also use the same in black for trolling
and have been using Flouro a bit on St Clair for trolling and get bit on all.
Funny the last few weeks I have been struggling with using Flouro for casting after seeing pics of 48 inchers that completely inhaled Pounders (which I throw quite a bit) along with a large tooth we had on a hook last year at Clair that has an edge like a shark tooth.
I fish alot of clear water catch alot of fish and would have to say that when a Muskie has Murder in its eye it wouldn't
Matter if it was cable they are going to eat the bait and think I am going to stick to wire for all of my casting like Jon Bondy
who uses 200 cable and take no chances loosing a fish of a lifetime. |
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Posts: 16632
Location: The desert | That's a lot of words. |
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Posts: 612
| I just plain like fluorocarbon leaders. In the heavily fished waters I fish I'll take any edge I can get. And BTW I fish baits that closely resemble both the color and shape of the folder (match the hatch) that live in the lake. Say perch or alewives. I don't fish any of those crazy looking baits but that's just me.
Fluorocarbon has its drawbacks as well, often after a fish you have to swap out leaders because the leader been severely compromised by those choppers. |
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Posts: 2427
Location: Ft. Wayne Indiana | when it comes to leaders...there is no reason to "over think" things. Simply order leaders from John Bette with Stealth Tackle. Get the 130 or 150 lb flouro or the steel leaders....that's all you'll ever need. Keep it simple...don't over think it. |
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Posts: 470
Location: Blaine, MN | wisskie - 6/15/2016 4:22 PM
I ounce sean a guy wareing all blue, pants shirt hat and buff. He claimed his catch rait doubled after switching over two all blue. Worst part was it was overcast this particular day.
I will be the first to admit that I have a few of the Simms Solarflex cloud camo shirts, but not because I am trying to "blend in" with the sky. I just happen to like the way they look for some reason. |
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Posts: 2258
Location: SE, WI. |
I always get a kick out of this Floro VS Wire leaders. I bet every 3-4 Months, guys get on each other's backs on what is right, and what is wrong. I'd be willing to bet, most younger musky anglers use Floro, and most seasoned musky anglers use Wire. ( key word here is Most). Can anybody guess when Floro got Popular??? THats right!!!! IT was right after the super lines were established. Why??? Because Mono lines took a huge hit in sales, and mono was put on the shelf...SO, what did they do??? THey came out with a line they could spool up in 25' spools, and put a big price tag on it to get sales back. BUnch of big names in the fishing industry were sent out to preach the advantages of Floro. I did a 5 week test for myself to justify the pro's and cons. I boated 17 muskies In That period...12 on black seven strand leader material, and 5 on Floro. THe proof was In The pudding, and I got rid of the Floro, and continued on with wire. AFter a few of the Floro fish were boated, I noticed the Floro fraid and tore like string cheese...that was enough evidence for me. IF you consider the thickness of Floro VS wire, Wire is thinner, thus giving your Lures MORE Action, especially when it came to crank baits. I simply, throughout the years, heard enough from my buddies, and through the musky world, the huge fish horror stories that bit through their Floro and they lost the fish of their lives. THere are 49 strand wire leader material out there, that are just as flexible, and thinner,+ camouflage colors, and tie like mono, that there is really no need to take the chances with a mono leader. Make your choice...Wire OR Floro...Heartbreak....OR....Hero!!! JD IF I see another Wire VS Floro post, think I will S&%}34m;) |
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Posts: 719
| Every musky in my boat for at least the last ten years, jigging or casting, has come on home made leaders that are made from downrigger cable. I'm almost done my second 200 ft spool of it. Swivel and split ring on each end, no snap. Done. Do some avoid it? No idea but when that 62" eats a Bondy I'll be ready. |
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Posts: 38
| Could you share with us what product you use? Thanks! |
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Posts: 1036
| Love flouro for bucktails, topwaters and some cranks. My rods that pitch those baits have flouro leaders.
Love wire for jerk baits, bulldawgs, Bondy's...etc. My rods that pitch those baits have wire leaders.
Each material has pros and cons. And some baits just plain run better on each material. Just gotta figure it out. |
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Posts: 785
| I guess I'm speaking for myself here but I lean towards flouro (stealth tackle 180#) because it doesn't kink and because it shows wear and tear more reliably then wire. It's never been about making it invisible. For gliders, minnow baits and topwaters I still use single strand. With baits that can kink wire leaders like large plastics and big blades I only use flouro. I'll admit I've had two bite offs which is more then most guys I know, one was 2011 on a day I boated 3 fish (45, 48 & 50) the other was also on a 3 fish day in 2014 (40, 41 & 47) both times by a fish head hitting plastics then swimming straight away on the hook set. Keep in mind though this is two fish over a 10 year period, and many many big fish boated without issue. |
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Location: Northern Wisconsin | So that is two fish that most likely died with the lure stuck in its throat. For me, getting bit off by one fish is enough to make me stop using flouro. I used it for a bit but had one cut through, luckily it was already in the net. This was on a 150lb stealth leader. Just because a guide comes on all the internet threads and endorses his buddies flouro leader company doesn't mean it is the right product to use all the time. |
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Posts: 785
| It was extremely unfortunate that the bite offs occurred and immediately after both I networked with a few friends and acquaintances who use them and found between them and myself there were literally well over 1000 fish caught between us with only my two leader failings... in a 10 year span. Not saying it's cool at all that those fish were put at risk, but it was the exception. The reason I switched was because the metal fatigue caused by big plastics foul hooking on wire leaders was breaking way more leaders then the two bite offs and I have a pile of about 30 seemingly okay looking wire leaders I retired early to try and avoid this. Thankfully none failed on fish but it was a serious concern. It's very easy to examine a flouro leader for weaknesses. I've made the decision to stay with flouro especially on big plastic because I still believe it to be the best all around option for me.
If you feel this is a silly conclusion and all wrong then stick with the wire. However you'd be wrong to assume my decision is merely buying into what a guide says and not experimenting with it for myself. Congrats on never breaking off on a fish. I hope you never do. |
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Posts: 2024
| I'd settle for datum proving your point. I prefer Knot 2 Kinky for my leaders. Simply because it gives me something else to laugh about. Also, who decided 174 lb single strand wire was the best for jerkbaits? That is an honest question. The other stuff is just me. |
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Leader Visibility...Really??!!