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Posts: 78
Location: Pardeeville, WI | Im just getting into this whole trolling thing and have yet to become very efficent. I have nailed a few muskies and pike but have ended up getting snagged and having other problems occur frequently.
Some of the problems are:
Trying to find medium size shallow running crankbaits that perform at high speed. I went out and bought a jointed shallowraider but it cannot hold speeds greater than 3.5 without going into a spin. My Ernies and Depthraiders and Jakes seem to perform better at high speed but dive too deep under lots of situations unless Im doing some serious shortlining.
I have had a lot of success trolling spoons but they manage to twist my line up beyond comprehension. Is their anyway to avoid this? I use nice high quality leaders.
Also, I have a few 10 inch believers that troll fine on the deep eye at high speeds but on the shallow eye they just cannot handle it. Would jointed believers troll better\faster on the shallow eye?
Im also looking for some baits that I can troll around 5mph between 6 inches and 3 feet down. Has anybody tried trolling the big 12" Shallow BullDawg? What was the results?
Any advice is appreciated.
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Posts: 139
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It has been my experience that Bucher crankbaits are poor for trolling at high speeds...There are better options in my opinion....The jointed Wileys troll at high speeds very well...Sledge jerkbaits also provides a nice medium running trolling bait....If you have any of the old Creek Chub, they too are nice medium runners...AS far as Believers go, both models are excellent...If you are having problems trolling them on the shallow eye, I would either put a bell sinker on the front hook hanger or drill a hole in the belly of the bait and fill with foam....Both Jointed and Straight models are dynamite with either application... |
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Posts: 132
Location: Kawarthas, Ontario | Here are three additionals you can try: 9" weighted Sledge (w/rattles) jerkbait, Rapala Magnum Shad Rap, and the jointed Muskie Stalker. That being said, the most obvious choice for the depth range you want is a big spinnerbait. With a slight re-positioning of the rod, everyone of these baits will operate in the top 4 feet of the water column, and at speeds in the 5 mph plus range. My preference would be the Sledge, as it has a very low drag in the water, hooks very well, and is incredibly resilient. The larger fish seem to really like it.
Don't be afraid to shorten up your lines and experiment. You'd be very surprised to know that muskies will hit a bait running within a couple of feet of your boat (and not necessarily in the prop wash either).
Regards,
Steve Wickens
STRIKE ZONE Muskie Charters
Edited by strike_zone 6/19/2003 11:41 AM
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Posts: 600
Location: West Bend, WI | When you guys talk about trolling the sledge, are you pulling the bait with your hands or throw them in rod holders? Has anyone tried trolling reefhawgs? I tried trolling a suick the other day but she kept blowing out on me!! I assume that when you guys are trolling jerkbaits that you are useing only weighted baits ? thx |
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Posts: 132
Location: Kawarthas, Ontario | With the weighted Sledge, you just toss it out there and put your rod in the holder... it's that easy.
And yes... you want the weighted model with rattles.
Steve Wickens
STRIKE ZONE Muskie Charters |
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| I troll the non weighted sledge and it runs great.Good over shallow weeds.Also 8"jointed and streight depth raiders troll good.I've trolled them as fast as 6.5 mph and they might be my best lure. |
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I have a number of baits that I use for diffrent situations.
For very shallow speed trolling, I like to use bucktails and spoons. You must use super line with ballbearing swivels. Mono will twist up like crazy.
For trolling in depths in the 8 to 15 range, My number one lure is the Super shad rap in shad or firetiger pattern. This lure has been an awsome producer and is amazing at high speeds. Shallow invaders and jakes work well too. The 8 inch believer is good at medium speeds up to 5 mph but no faster.
For deep speed trolling I like to use the Mag rapalas, cisco kids, And Salmos. These lures are deadly from 15 to 25 feet and troll great at high speeds. 10" Beleivers are great as well but work better at 5mph and slower. I have had ones that will run faster (no one lure seems to run the same) but for the most part I find that they are more affective at slower speeds anyway. They have a very wide wobble making them hard for the fish to hit at high speeds (6 mph and higher). My hooking percentage is much better at about 4 Mph.
Hope this helps
Cory Toker |
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Posts: 793
Location: Ames, Iowa | The Super Shad Rap holds its action even at very fast speeds. Tight wiggle. It's cheap as muskie lures go too. Same for Bomber Long A Magnums. I like the action of the 9 inch grandma lure. For what its worth, my opinion is that Jakes are the worst trollers- my three always blow out even at slow speeds.
All the best,
Don |
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Posts: 1023
Location: Lafayette, IN | I'm new to trolling too but I'll give my vote to the Super Shad Raps too. I have 6 of them and they run great. I also like the 10" Jake for the wider wobble and commotion. Bulldawgs are nice to troll and seem to work nicely off boards or Dipseys. |
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Posts: 585
Location: Gaithersburg, Maryland | Here's a real good link for you about fishing large Believers on the shallow eye: http://www.trentu.ca/muskie/catch/c_r12.html |
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Posts: 132
Location: Kawarthas, Ontario | Tip for your Super Shad Raps... replace the 2/0 factory stainless trebles with 4/0's. Your hook-up ratios will increase significantly!!!
Steve Wickens
STRIKE ZONE Muskie Charters |
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Posts: 73
Location: Hazard KY | I could write a book on those questions but heres a short sweet version.
lures that will troll fast and shallow, Muskie specials , wileys, gotchas, all jointed, none jointed lapper lures, redfins, SS shads,
Also Swim whizzs fished on the deep ring but on only 10-20 fr of line work great for me I can get about 6mph out of the jointed.
I use flouro carbon leaders with a big swivel that stops most of the line twist.
I love to troll lures shallow and fast try SS shads and redfins in the shallow stuff. ait tried bull dogs yets
good fishin
Chris Haley
www.kentuckymuskie.com |
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Posts: 585
Location: Gaithersburg, Maryland | The Shad Raps come with non-corrosive hooks that I never seem to get very sharp. I replace them with bronze VMC hooks of similar size. I was wondering if the lures were thru wire construction (posted about it elsewhere here). I can attest to the fact that they do have thru wire construction after cutting one in half with a hack saw!!! I like the blk/silver baits. Great propwash and casting lure. |
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Posts: 229
Location: Willoughby, Ohio | I troll quite a bit and IMHO, one of the best lures for fast trolling is a Wiley. I've heard of guys at St Clair running them over 8 mph. I haven't found a Believer or Shim Whiz yet that will troll at higher speeds on the shallow eye. Trolling a Sledge is effective. Most people I know just drag it along behind the boat. If you're worried about only going 3' down max, why not shortline? We do it all the time and it catches fish. Anything from 20' of line out to actually having the end of a 4' leader showing has worked for me shortlining. You can use just about any diving lure that way. |
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Posts: 16
Location: Kawartha Lakes Region, Ontario, Canada | BTPF,
Seems like everyone covered just about everything here already, except for an answer to your question about trolling your spoons and how to avoid getting your line all twisted up.
Two reasons why this happens, and both are easy enough to correct.
First, you should try using a super braid line like Power Pro or Tuff line. No matter what line you use, there will always be some twisting, but with these supper braids, this is greatly reduced to the point that it is almost eliminated.
Second and most importantly, you need to troll spoons slow. They need to be pulled at a speed that causes them to seductively wobble to the point just before they start to spin. Once they spin, they are not accomplishing what they were made to do. Usually, 3 MPH or higher is going too fast, but there obviously are other factors that need to be considered such as current. Find the right speed visually, (each spoon is different) by running them at boat side until you achieve the proper action. This will take a little bit of practice and patience, there is a fine line between too fast and just right, but once you master spoons, they can be an incredible tool in your arsenal of baits.
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Posts: 11
| Another answer about your spoons. They can be trolled at high speeds but you need to put Sampo ball Bearing snap and swivels on them Put one by the spoon and also on the other end of your leader you need at least two. I only use Sampo's as they are the only ones that have never failed on me. The fellow with the 4 Os hooks try three Os I have tried every combo of hooks since Super Shads have been out and this the best for the most hits. The next has been 3 Os on the belly hook and the 4 Os on the tail. Make sure to give the belly hook the trolling bend. Of course I only cast mine I stopped trolling years ago but I'm sure they will work the same trolling as they do casting. Bob |
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Posts: 75
Location: ft wayne, IN | All great answers--a few extras include: yes you can speed troll the magnum and super magnum dawgs but they need to be weighted w/ an inline weight of at least 3-5 ounces to keep them subsurface. A heavier weight in the ten ounce plus range or a dipsy diver is required for greater depths. The larger and wider spoons troll best and can easily take high speeds if you use superlines/ball bearing swivels/bulkier fluoro leaders/and inline weights. A comment on the weights---they should be linked in-line using a ball bearing swivel tied to your line followed by a super split ring (bucher) attached to both ends of the weight which is then linked to your long (36-60 inch) fluoro leader which has a larger stringease locking snap. Avoid the berkely snaps as they do open up frequently resulting in lost lures ($$) and of course fish (#*@##&!!). You might also try putting out a large planer board or two which would enable you to shortline your baits (keeping them shallow if that's your goal) off the boat on those tougher days. Jointed believers definitely troll faster on the shallow setting compared to the straight model. Finally, if your baits are "wobbling out" at higher speeds check the front eyelets (bend them away from the direction of the "wobble out"), hook orientations (very important on the jakes--the split of the hook should be against the body, not the third hook itself), hook quality (nasty/gunky/rusty hooks create irregular friction and turbulence), body of your bait, buoancy of your bait (does it have a microhole and taking in water?), is the joint intact (old believers get loose joints as do wood baits which eventually separate), and of course the plane of the lips (heat the plastics/bend the metals carefully). And who thought fishing was as much of a science as luck of the stars!
JK |
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Posts: 1137
Location: Holly, MI | BRAINSX - 4/21/2004 1:40 AM
is the joint intact (old believers get loose joints as do wood baits which eventually separate), JK
Please send me your old "loose" jointed Believers. He He just kidding of course, but not really. How does that old joke go about the more you bang 'em the looser they get? The more miles you put on a jointed believer the better it will wiggle, clack and shakerattleroll. My old beat up ones out preform new ones all the time. I'm talking the same vintage lures here, just some have trolled a lot further. |
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Posts: 75
Location: ft wayne, IN | Lobi--
Yes they wiggle better after you loosen them up--see the similarity here? I've lost between 6-10 tail ends of believers due to the separation of that joint while trolling them on St Clair all day---I don't think it is fish as they are not rippin' before we bring em' in. I've discussed this with Luke Warline the owner of Drifter and Ben Clendenning the manufacturer of the bait and they have both concurred that it was a problem with the older baits (second generation) and that the problem is now resolved with the newest addition of their believers. There have been several changes in the bait over the years. The oldest ones have great joints but puncture easily (teeth) and take on water then run amuck. The second generation hold up better body-wise and run smoother but the joints didn't hold up well. With now the third generation (in recent years) all problems are touted to be resolved. Time will tell. Great baits though eh!!
JK |
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Posts: 1137
Location: Holly, MI | Here is exactly what I posted on the post "first time troller" ....
I do a lot of trolling. ditto on mono for planer board clips. I even add a rubberband to the clip to hold it tight against hard pulling baits. With the rubberband on the release and super sharp hooks you will have a lot better chance of a hookup when the board rod starts screaming, still give her one good hard hook-set. Down east rod holders are the only way to go for rod holders. I use my salmon downrigger rods for trolling. The shimano TDR rods are only $30 and the foam grips don't get tore up un the rod holders like cork ones can. I'll only use reels with a clicker (line out alarm) for trolling also. My first time out trolling, alone, I lost two fish that were on and I didn't know it. Was busy with gps, steering wheel, smoke, pop, etc. Most of my trolling baits are able to take 5mph or more, even in the propwash. Jointed Wilies, Treminators, Lokes, Believers, Musky Stalkers (from drifter tackle, and only about $12 each instead of 20-25 each. I run rods in the prop wash about 6 feet back on both sides of the motor. Down rods are on down easters mounted on the rails in front of the windshield. The tips of the down rods are about a foot or two in the water and the lure is only 6-10 feet back. I'll clip on weight up to 16 oz but usually 6-10 oz. OR clips make a release that has a pin in the middle on one side and a hole on the other pad. You clip your weight on past this pin and it cannot fall off (release) so you dont lose them. On the boards I run 20 back with zero, 2 or 4 oz of lead. If it is just me or me and one other person in the boat I'll run a slider for a third lure per person in the water (two rods per person). Remember you can't out troll a Muskie. If 4-5 mph isn't working bump it up to 6 or 7 mph. If you do some S-turns while trolling you will cover more water and your lures will speed up and slow down. If you get a hit on a rod on the outside of a s-turn then you know the speed probably helped trigger the hit, so speed up your trolling a bit. If the inside rod goes off, going slower, drop your trolling speed a bit.
pm me if any of this doesn't make sense. Try to find those drops from 6 down to 10 feet, or 10 down to 15, etc. and troll the edges. Good article about trolling the weedlines in the latest Muskie Hunter. Remember that a muskie probably won't drop a foot for a lure but can flash up 15 ft in a heartbeat. Even if you are running 16 oz of lead the lure won't be down very far because of the short line out and the speed. Try trolling a topwater on a long line. Don't forget there are a lot of spinnerbaits that will troll well too. There is a lot to do and know about trolling. Trolling may look like a guy going in circles drinking a beer but if he is, he is not catching fish either.
Most of all.. stick a slob and have a blast!
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| i have found that bagleys monster shad is a very good bait for your situations. trhey sell them
all over and they catch fish! |
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Trolling Help needed