I believe that large Muskies in most older systems are scavengers and primarily feed on larger, weak links in the food chain throughout the majority of the season.
In some ponds, the largest Largemouth Bass in the system can be easily caught on large, struggling Bluegills. Those same type of fish that feed primarily on Bluegill can be caught on hot dogs.
Pike are known to hit on dead bait and Tiger Muskies have been caught on hot dogs.
Posted 1/13/2016 9:00 PM (#799419 - in reply to #799415) Subject: Re: Apex Predator/Scavenger
Posts: 1660
Location: central Wisconsin
A scavenger feeds on the dead. I don't ever recall catching one on a dead sucker. They feed on the dying you bet, that is what a great many of our baits imitate.
Posted 1/13/2016 9:04 PM (#799421 - in reply to #799415) Subject: Re: Apex Predator/Scavenger
Posts: 1636
Scavengers may also eat live prey. By definition, any instance of a Muskie feeding on something dead that is not being moved to imitate something live could be considered scavenging.
Posted 1/13/2016 9:34 PM (#799423 - in reply to #799411) Subject: Re: Apex Predator/Scavenger
Posts: 32914
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin
I had a muskie or 2 in a giant aquarium over the years and found they didn't like to eat dying minnows. They would swim right by them and smoke one much harder to catch. I always wonder if that was instinctive avoidance of 'unhealthy' prey. These were in an aquarium, so all bets are off.
Ben Olsen
Posted 1/13/2016 9:40 PM (#799426 - in reply to #799411) Subject: Re: Apex Predator/Scavenger
Muskies are most certainly NOT scavengers! We as fishermen try to present them with an opportunity at an easy meal; of which any predator will take advantage. But simply because they take advantage of opportunity does not mean they target the sick or weak or dying! They also take advantage of location, current, cover ect to eat perfectly healthy strong prey! They target healthy sucker runs, cisco spawn, sunnies on beds and so on. If you observe them long enough from the fisherman's perspective you will clearly see they often do not eat the weak or dying! I don't sucker fish much, but some of the guys on can tell you how much more effective a healthy sucker that runs away is than a lifeless one. Also consider extremely fast moving presentations like bucktail burning and triggering strikes with a good, fast figure 8. Muskies practically never eat dead bait and we use cliches like: "If it moves, it's food." They are definitely predators and will regularly target the largest, fastest and most health prey!
Posted 1/13/2016 9:48 PM (#799428 - in reply to #799411) Subject: Re: Apex Predator/Scavenger
Posts: 1636
...and I did not mean all specimens. I was referring to some individuals in-particular... based on some of my personal catches after a long time observing things from a fisherman's perspective on the water.
Posted 1/13/2016 10:07 PM (#799436 - in reply to #799411) Subject: Re: Apex Predator/Scavenger
Posts: 1636
I believe it happens fairly often on some bodies of water when it comes to larger fish... I mainly fish reservoirs from just over 50 acres in size to almost a million.
Posted 1/13/2016 10:27 PM (#799441 - in reply to #799411) Subject: Re: Apex Predator/Scavenger
Posts: 19
I definitely believe that muskies are the apex predator of fresh water. A scavenger certainly would not T Bone a Headlock at 5 mph or chase down a Bulging double 10. However, I know some guys that do incredibly well in late fall and early winter on large dead shad near the bottom. In early December one guy caught a 51" on a dead shad. Any way I guess just like coyotes a predator may take a free meal sometimes if their hungry.
Posted 1/13/2016 11:37 PM (#799447 - in reply to #799441) Subject: Re: Apex Predator/Scavenger
Posts: 1636
Great White Sharks will chase down Seals and feed off dead carcasses of Whales. I have not personally witnessed any of this, but I have seen it on the Discovery channel.
Posted 1/14/2016 5:32 AM (#799454 - in reply to #799411) Subject: Re: Apex Predator/Scavenger
Posts: 20241
Location: oswego, il
Fish adapt to their environments. It could be that fish have the opportunity to scavenge where he fishes. Down here in the shad belt, a hard winter will cause shad to slowly die over the prespawn period. Steve Pallo told me there is no food for them, they digest their insides and die. Prespawn muskies can be tough after a hard winter. You can pick an upright shad with your hand. Fish don't have to chase these meals.
On heidecke lake I catch quite a few carp on crankbaits when the shad bloom happens. I catch many in the mouth, and alot in the body. They adapted to eating the shad. I believe that what they don't chase down, they body slam then eat. Thos also bolstered by the fact i see alot of stunned shad in areas where i see carp.I body hook them well off shore and my presentation is not all that fast.
Pike will eat dead minnows in the middle of summer. Next time your in Canada and somebody has a few toss them off the dock. Wont take long.
Posted 1/14/2016 9:11 AM (#799473 - in reply to #799411) Subject: Re: Apex Predator/Scavenger
Posts: 1295
Location: Hayward, Wisconsin
Pike are well known to take dead bait...muskies not so much, unless it is moving, i.e. like a sucker on a rig and the boat is moving, therefore moving the sucker. The old timers cast dead suckers with great success and worked them like a jerk bait.
My aquarium experience is like that of sworralls. When I would bring minnows home and a few were dead, I would take them by the tail and swish them on the surface before putting in the live ones...and WHAM! Got to watch the fingers though! LOL
Posted 1/14/2016 9:59 AM (#799481 - in reply to #799441) Subject: Re: Apex Predator/Scavenger
Posts: 1084
Location: Aurora
Castalot - 1/13/2016 10:27 PM
A scavenger certainly would not T Bone a Headlock at 5 mph or chase down a Bulging double 10.
Not sure if they fall in the scavenger catagory but I've had several dogfish and a few big bullheads chase down fast moving big buck tails over the years and eat them and/or try to eat them.
Posted 1/14/2016 10:14 AM (#799484 - in reply to #799481) Subject: Re: Apex Predator/Scavenger
Posts: 1636
I'm not trying to classify the Muskie as a scavenger. I just believe some of the largest fish in a lot of bodies of water scavenge and prey on the weak links in the system quite often. Mainly in fisheries where gigantic schools of shad are not present. More-so in smaller bodies of water where the main species of fish are Bluegills, Bass, and Walleye.
Posted 1/14/2016 10:35 AM (#799488 - in reply to #799484) Subject: Re: Apex Predator/Scavenger
Posts: 3155
So what do I do with the grizzly staring at me?????
Grizzlys scavenge elk and deer carcasses,,
But yet we're told to.play dead
I shave my head and with the wrinkles on it I look like a hot dog end
Run or act ???????
Posted 1/14/2016 10:52 AM (#799490 - in reply to #799488) Subject: Re: Apex Predator/Scavenger
Posts: 8816
happy hooker - 1/14/2016 10:35 AM
So what do I do with the grizzly staring at me?????
Grizzlys scavenge elk and deer carcasses,,
But yet we're told to.play dead
I shave my head and with the wrinkles on it I look like a hot dog end
Run or act ???????
I believe they tell you not to run because you're sure to get killed if you do. You might still get killed if you don't, but playing dead sometimes causes them to lose interest after a few bites when they figure out that people taste bad. I think.
Going back to muskies... It wouldn't surprise me if they do scavenge some. They pretty much eat what they can catch. But I've seen them sit and stare at a sucker for minutes on end until it finally wakes up and realizes its in a whole lot of trouble. As soon as they start to flee, they get eaten. We've also had days like that where they'd just sit there until you dropped down a new lively sucker. They had every chance to eat the ones we had rigged up before, but the fresh one never even made it to the bottom.
Posted 1/14/2016 11:00 AM (#799492 - in reply to #799490) Subject: Re: Apex Predator/Scavenger
Location: Contrarian Island
praying on a weak link and scavenging are 2 very different things....scavenging by definition is feeding on dead animals...while I do think they might do some of that, adult large muskies prefer things that are alive if available.. which pretty much every lake will have....praying on a weak link is similiar to the lion that sits and watches a herd of wildebeests run by, he waits, and waits and then see's the one that maybe older or injured and leaps out.. no different than a musky..they are opportunistic feeders when they see something they think is injured like when little jonny is reeling in a crappie, they pounce...to them it's an easy target...scavenger, no.... opportunistic feeder, yes.
Posted 1/14/2016 11:41 AM (#799497 - in reply to #799492) Subject: Re: Apex Predator/Scavenger
Location: Grand Rapids, MI
I used to believe what the magazines told be about weak and dying fish and that our lure look like injured fish. Fortunately 20 some years ago I realize I needed to start thinking for myself and learn from my own observation. Now I don't believe that's how freshwater apex predators do most of their feeding and in fact I don't believe that's how most piscivores feed. Will they do things that aren't "normal behavior"? Sure.
We also need to be careful comparing muskies to other more evolved fish and we certainly can't compare them to mammals that have the ability to think and learn. My opinion is that freshwater predators evolved to avoid the weak and diseased. If they didn't they themselves would have contracted any passable disease and therefore be eliminated. This is also (my opinion) why we see more selective feeding from fish that are higher on the food chain.
Posted 1/14/2016 11:49 AM (#799499 - in reply to #799497) Subject: Re: Apex Predator/Scavenger
Location: Contrarian Island
so you are saying muskies can't think or learn?
while I do agree muskies are going to prefer 'healthy' forage, they obviously hit lures that are not acting healthy...look at a slow moving weagle... what is that suppose to be? def not a healthy fish on the surface...
Posted 1/14/2016 12:13 PM (#799511 - in reply to #799499) Subject: Re: Apex Predator/Scavenger
Posts: 32914
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin
Define 'learn'.
Fish don't 'learn' as humans understand the function, but will, through repeated successes and failures over generations, change behavior. The main problem is they lack the brain structure to 'reason'.
Be careful of anthropomorphism.
Short term, fish can become less 'interested' in a lure because of repeated exposure, which reduces the response the footprint of the lure is creating. The more of that footprint in the environment, the less, eventually, the response. Some studies on Bass show repeated captures reduce response to a single presentation...but change a tiny bit of it, and boom. So they don't 'learn' not to hit a spinnerbait, for example.
A Weagle doesn't behave, look, sound like, act like , sorta resemble, or anything else a living thing; record one. The out of the box stimulus creates a response that is automatic. To way over-simplify, sort of Doug's 'if it moves it's food' response. I know for sure the first time muskies are exposed to that lure, they respond differently than the one hundred thousandth time. Why? Stimulus/response.
Eating 'sick' prey is something most predators avoid IF they are not literally starving, not because the particular predator looks at prey and 'thinks' "Oh, not that one, it's sick", it's more of an instinctive measure developed by 10,000 + years of evolving. I've watched Pike on camera on dead bait, and if the odor is 'off', they will not take it.
The Waterwolf video we shot this year on Eagle of muskies shadowing our sucker was pretty interesting too. The muskies would charge up on the sucker, and if it didn't respond, back off. If the sucker tried to 'get away', the response was stronger. It took a pretty big move that day to get a strike, and we only had one, despite some impressive Eagle Lake blondies staying with the sucker for over a half hour.
Posted 1/14/2016 12:21 PM (#799514 - in reply to #799499) Subject: Re: Apex Predator/Scavenger
Location: Grand Rapids, MI
BNelson - 1/14/2016 12:49 PM so you are saying muskies can't think or learn? while I do agree muskies are going to prefer 'healthy' forage, they obviously hit lures that are not acting healthy...look at a slow moving weagle... what is that suppose to be? def not a healthy fish on the surface...
Disagree. Have you ever watched a fish on the surface eating mayflys or other bugs? It's almost the identical motion to a death marched Weagle.
Posted 1/14/2016 12:23 PM (#799515 - in reply to #799411) Subject: Re: Apex Predator/Scavenger
Posts: 93
Location: Des Moines IA
I believe I read a article in In-Fisherman or Fishing Facts some 35 years ago about muskies eating dead cisco and tullibee off the bottom of deep water lakes such as Walker Bay on Leech Lake. Also mentioned that muskies would hang below the schools and wait for the weaker ones to fall for a easy meal.
Posted 1/14/2016 12:53 PM (#799517 - in reply to #799514) Subject: Re: Apex Predator/Scavenger
Posts: 2378
Will Schultz - 1/14/2016 12:21 PM
BNelson - 1/14/2016 12:49 PM so you are saying muskies can't think or learn? while I do agree muskies are going to prefer 'healthy' forage, they obviously hit lures that are not acting healthy...look at a slow moving weagle... what is that suppose to be? def not a healthy fish on the surface...
Disagree. Have you ever watched a fish on the surface eating mayflys or other bugs? It's almost the identical motion to a death marched Weagle.
100% agree. Sounds about identical to the swoosh too.
Posted 1/14/2016 1:15 PM (#799522 - in reply to #799411) Subject: Re: Apex Predator/Scavenger
Location: Contrarian Island
correct, but sick prey and injured prey are also 2 different things...Will, I do agree that over the course of time it's in their instincts to avoid weak, or sick/diseased pray....but an injured fish could be 100% healthy (minus the injury, which is totally different from sick or diseased) and why they eat it...look at what we do to our baits, we twitch, and rip, and pause, and jerk and then let our baits fall...why??? imo to act as if they are injured, or at any rate, to give them a good opportunity to strike them... opportunistic feeders... not scavengers
SWorralls paragraph:
The Waterwolf video we shot this year on Eagle of muskies shadowing our sucker was pretty interesting too. The muskies would charge up on the sucker, and if it didn't respond, back off. If the sucker tried to 'get away', the response was stronger. It took a pretty big move that day to get a strike, and we only had one, despite some impressive Eagle Lake blondies staying with the sucker for over a half hour.
that could also be the conditions of that day... sucker fishing over the years we have seen many days they act just like that... often times just following the suckers, at times for a very long time... fast forward a day or 2 and those same fish hit those same suckers ... I think it's a stretch for anyone to try and figure out why some days they simply follow them, and other days they hit them, same fish, same spots, same suckers... they just decided to eat that day is what it comes down to
Posted 1/14/2016 1:21 PM (#799523 - in reply to #799411) Subject: Re: Apex Predator/Scavenger
Posts: 19
My understanding is that when we are jigging Bondys in open water around schooled baitfish we are imitating a dying fish that is acting more erratically than the rest. I guess some Successful Bondy presentations also work when the Bondy moves out of the school of baitfish to a musky that is just baby sitting the school so maybe just right place and time. I also have pretty good success with a Bondy on a deadline while either casting or jigging another Bondy.usually I am moving but this past June I had a Bondy on a dead rod in dead calm water. I had just castes through the area stopped trolling motor and for next 5 minutes put rods and everything away to go home. Then I hear the line counter reel peel a few inches of line I grabbed rod and caught a 38". The Bondy had been nearly motionless for 5-10 minutes. Every other one either the wind was blowing the boat or trolling motor.
Posted 1/14/2016 1:29 PM (#799525 - in reply to #799522) Subject: Re: Apex Predator/Scavenger
Posts: 32914
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin
BNelson - 1/14/2016 1:15 PM
correct, but sick prey and injured prey are also 2 different things...Will, I do agree that over the course of time it's in their instincts to avoid weak, or sick/diseased pray....but an injured fish could be 100% healthy (minus the injury, which is totally different from sick or diseased) and why they eat it...look at what we do to our baits, we twitch, and rip, and pause, and jerk and then let our baits fall...why??? imo to act as if they are injured, or at any rate, to give them a good opportunity to strike them... opportunistic feeders... not scavengers
SWorralls paragraph:
The Waterwolf video we shot this year on Eagle of muskies shadowing our sucker was pretty interesting too. The muskies would charge up on the sucker, and if it didn't respond, back off. If the sucker tried to 'get away', the response was stronger. It took a pretty big move that day to get a strike, and we only had one, despite some impressive Eagle Lake blondies staying with the sucker for over a half hour.
that could also be the conditions of that day... sucker fishing over the years we have seen many days they act just like that... often times just following the suckers, at times for a very long time... fast forward a day or 2 and those same fish hit those same suckers ... I think it's a stretch for anyone to try and figure out why some days they simply follow them, and other days they hit them, same fish, same spots, same suckers... they just decided to eat that day is what it comes down to
I didn't infer it was or was not the 'conditions' and I did specifically say 'that day'. Nor did I say anything was 'figured out' other than that day a bait that didn't move didn't get hit, and more importantly, there were muskies on the sucker almost 80% of the time, but we only saw them on sonar once in a while. We left big fish because we didn't know they were there until I edited the video. I will say this...that happened on more than one day on more than one lake, and did catch more fish by making sure the sucker took off when a fish showed up on the sonar. Problem is, not all show up on the sonar because they don't get close enough in shallower water. Need to get the Water Wolf more water time, that's for sure.
You can rip, twitch, yank, pause, or anything you want, and your lure will be VERY far from imitating any real fish, injured or otherwise. And that's actually a good thing.
Posted 1/14/2016 2:26 PM (#799532 - in reply to #799522) Subject: Re: Apex Predator/Scavenger
Location: Grand Rapids, MI
BNelson - 1/14/2016 2:15 PM correct, but sick prey and injured prey are also 2 different things...Will, I do agree that over the course of time it's in their instincts to avoid weak, or sick/diseased pray....but an injured fish could be 100% healthy (minus the injury, which is totally different from sick or diseased) and why they eat it...look at what we do to our baits, we twitch, and rip, and pause, and jerk and then let our baits fall...why??? imo to act as if they are injured, or at any rate, to give them a good opportunity to strike them... opportunistic feeders... not scavengers
Burst, pause... burst, pause... that's exactly what a fish does when feeding.
Posted 1/14/2016 2:46 PM (#799538 - in reply to #799537) Subject: Re: Apex Predator/Scavenger
Posts: 688
Location: Northern IL
BNelson - 1/14/2016 2:40 PM
guess it doesn't matter to me why it works as long as I know it does ;)
Agree,
I don't know for sure but something sounds fishy about a healthy muskie eating a decaying carcass laying on the bottom, even if he's starving. A injured fish, absolutely.
The way I see it is it's all about the activity level of the fish at that particular time. On one extreme they may chase down a funny looking shoehorn thing at 10mph and on the other end a dead sucker or minnow moving at zero speed is what it takes. Just because a fish doesn't strike a lure or bait at one speed doesn't mean he wouldn't strike the exact same lure or bait at a faster or slower speed or maybe a smaller size. All fishing successes traces back to depth, speed and size control. The more active the fish, the larger faster the lure or bait he is willing to strike. The less active, even almost dormant the slower the smaller the lure or bait may be the ticket. It's impossible to do it all, all of the time.
I remember captain Larry saying years ago "he never caught a 50"+ over 3 mph", not saying it doesn't happen. The older a fish gets the more reluctant he is to leave his deep water sanctuary, the older a fish gets the slower he is and eventually dies of starvation with his inability to chase down a JB spoonplug or meal ha ha.
Posted 1/14/2016 2:55 PM (#799540 - in reply to #799538) Subject: Re: Apex Predator/Scavenger
Posts: 13688
Location: minocqua, wi.
not a musky but an apex predator ... if you have a tip-up spread out and nothing is happening, go pick em all up and drop em. more times than not you will get a flag. do nothing and you won't. seen it too many times and spend enough time on the ice to know it works.
Posted 1/14/2016 2:57 PM (#799541 - in reply to #799540) Subject: Re: Apex Predator/Scavenger
Location: Contrarian Island
agreed, there are guys that spend too much time, energy, and brain power to figure out the "whys" in musky fishing... a lot easier to figure out the "when" and not worry about the why...you'll catch more fish and sleep better at night ...
Posted 1/14/2016 4:28 PM (#799559 - in reply to #799411) Subject: Re: Apex Predator/Scavenger
Posts: 1636
I am by no means calling the weak link in the food chain sick. An injured fish is what I would consider a weak link. I don't think an injury or showing weakness by fighting for your life on a quick strike rig is sickness.
Posted 1/14/2016 4:43 PM (#799562 - in reply to #799559) Subject: Re: Apex Predator/Scavenger
Location: Grand Rapids, MI
Reelwise - 1/14/2016 5:28 PM I am by no means calling the weak link in the food chain sick. An injured fish is what I would consider a weak link. I don't think an injury or showing weakness by fighting for your life on a quick strike rig is sickness.
Making a distinction between just injured vs sick/diseased is something only high on the food chain mammals are capable of determining.
Posted 1/14/2016 4:51 PM (#799566 - in reply to #799411) Subject: Re: Apex Predator/Scavenger
Posts: 1636
I was mainly referring to how the actions of an injured fish or a fish struggling on the end of someones line (a sign of weakness) triggers a reaction from some of the biggest fish in the system fairly often. I have no clue if a fish can somehow comprehend the differences between injury and sickness. I am not a fish. I have never met someone who is one.
Posted 1/14/2016 4:54 PM (#799567 - in reply to #799411) Subject: Re: Apex Predator/Scavenger
Posts: 1636
I do believe that Muskies react differently to the different actions associated with being injured, sick, or dead. Some injured fish appear to be injured based on their movements, while dead fish do not move and may have some sort of scent a Muskie can pick up. One triggers the lateral line of a Muskie... the other does not.
Posted 1/14/2016 5:04 PM (#799570 - in reply to #799566) Subject: Re: Apex Predator/Scavenger
Posts: 32914
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin
Reelwise - 1/14/2016 4:51 PM
I was mainly referring to how the actions of an injured fish or a fish struggling on the end of someones line (a sign of weakness) triggers a reaction from some of the biggest fish in the system fairly often. I have no clue if a fish can somehow comprehend the differences between injury and sickness. I am not a fish. I have never met someone who is one.
A very good friend of mine who's a fisheries biologist says that...often.
Posted 1/14/2016 7:41 PM (#799607 - in reply to #799411) Subject: Re: Apex Predator/Scavenger
Posts: 230
I stopped at Bluewater New Mexico in late April 2015 and talked to three muskie fisherman. Each fisherman was throwing lures, fishing live bait and also dead bait. The lake holds a nice population of tiger muskies and gets a fair amount of fishing pressure. All three claimed that each year a significant number of muskies are caught on dead bait. While that surprised me, the type of dead bait they claimed to be using was a real shock. Each said hot dogs and chicken livers were very effective. I asked if they were fishing for catfish and they assured me they were fishing for tigers and they were catching tigers on hot dogs and chicken livers.
While I can’t verify their claims, I remember InFisherman articles featuring the use of dead bait for pike. In addition an InFisherman article cited pike displaying kleptoparasitic behavior (Kleptoparasitism or cleptoparasitism (literally, parasitism by theft) is a form of feeding in which one animal takes prey or other food from another that has caught, collected). Neither of these seem to be behaviors of a pure predator, rather they seem to describe an opportunistic feeder.
Just some thoughts….
Posted 1/14/2016 9:20 PM (#799628 - in reply to #799596) Subject: Re: Apex Predator/Scavenger
Location: Grand Rapids, MI
I don't doubt tigers feeding like pike, there's a lot of pike in a tiger.
Flambeauski - 1/14/2016 7:38 PM Injured fish release pheromones Esox can detect (one of the few species that can). Sick fish don't.
Without going and digging up the details on pheromones I seem to recall fish releasing alarm pheromones which would lead me to believe the smell of an alarm pheromone would elicit a negative response.
Posted 1/15/2016 12:00 AM (#799646 - in reply to #799628) Subject: Re: Apex Predator/Scavenger
Posts: 32914
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin
Video Information
Find a fish...and prey species, that behaves and sounds like these lures. The actual fish we have recorded underwater are nearly silent in comparison.
A hydrophone is a microphone designed to be used underwater for recording or listening to underwater sound. Most hydrophones are based on a piezoelectric transducer that generates electricity when subjected to a pressure change. Such piezoelectric materials, or transducers, can convert a sound signal into an electrical signal since sound is a pressure wave.
Posted 1/15/2016 5:50 AM (#799654 - in reply to #799411) Subject: Re: Apex Predator/Scavenger
Posts: 20241
Location: oswego, il
Steve are you sure fish don't have rattles in them? So your telling me that when a lure company claims their bait has life like action or a bass bubba says this spinnerbait looks like a shad they are not telling the truth?
Posted 1/15/2016 8:58 AM (#799679 - in reply to #799628) Subject: Re: Apex Predator/Scavenger
Posts: 4343
Location: Smith Creek
Will Schultz - 1/14/2016 9:20 PM
I don't doubt tigers feeding like pike, there's a lot of pike in a tiger.
Flambeauski - 1/14/2016 7:38 PM Injured fish release pheromones Esox can detect (one of the few species that can). Sick fish don't.
Without going and digging up the details on pheromones I seem to recall fish releasing alarm pheromones which would lead me to believe the smell of an alarm pheromone would elicit a negative response.
Typically the pheromones are only detected within the species, so an injured fathead releases it and it keys the other fatheads to get out of dodge.
Esox have receptors that can pick up this pheromone, as an apex predator they are attracted to it.
Posted 1/15/2016 12:09 PM (#799714 - in reply to #799411) Subject: RE: Apex Predator/Scavenger
Posts: 255
I think with all the new knowledge I've picked up in this thread I just might do some spring casting with the same lures in the same spots, then switch to casting more lures in other spots all summer, and end with casting in the Fall in all the same spots I didn't manage to catch anything all year.
Posted 1/15/2016 12:33 PM (#799721 - in reply to #799675) Subject: Re: Apex Predator/Scavenger
Location: Grand Rapids, MI
sworrall - 1/15/2016 9:33 AM Yes, pretty much. Fish don't rattle.
Well... that's not exactly true is it? Shad click and many other fish make clicking or rattling sounds. I couldn't find a recording of a shad (should turn on my Hydrowave and record that) but here's a sound that is from a fish, a silver perch to be exact: http://www.dosits.org/files/dosits/sperch.mp3
Sounds almost exactly like the recording of those double blade bucktails.
Posted 1/15/2016 1:05 PM (#799725 - in reply to #799411) Subject: Re: Apex Predator/Scavenger
Posts: 32914
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin
They don't sound anything like the recordings (run it through analysis), and in hundreds of hours of recording underwater, we've never had a single fish make any noise. Not once, and we have very, very good equipment.
You can occasionally 'hear' a large school of crappies or gills go by if they are brushing together. We've never recorded shad.
If you're saying that racket is 'natural', well...I'd strongly argue it isn't even close. And that's exactly why the lures catch fish. it's not a bad thing some days for a bait to be obnoxiously loud and bright, not a bad thing at all.
Posted 1/15/2016 1:18 PM (#799728 - in reply to #799411) Subject: Re: Apex Predator/Scavenger
Posts: 8816
I think part of the mistake we make when it comes to sound is forgetting that we're detecting it with ears and hydrophones. If you could make a lure that just suspended there making the same sound as fleeing prey makes, I don't have a lot of confidence that it would ever get eaten, as I doubt it would stimulate the lateral line the same way as something moving through the water does. And since we're using human ears, how do we know what a muskie's brain does with that information anyway?
Posted 1/15/2016 1:22 PM (#799730 - in reply to #799714) Subject: RE: Apex Predator/Scavenger
Posts: 1660
Location: central Wisconsin
muskidiem - 1/15/2016 12:09 PM
I think with all the new knowledge I've picked up in this thread I just might do some spring casting with the same lures in the same spots, then switch to casting more lures in other spots all summer, and end with casting in the Fall in all the same spots I didn't manage to catch anything all year.
Predator all the way.
I am just going to start chumming. That'll bring all those scavengers in.
Posted 1/15/2016 1:29 PM (#799731 - in reply to #799411) Subject: Re: Apex Predator/Scavenger
Posts: 32914
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin
Some folks don't like to reason things through anf turn things inside out and upside down. Some do. Some are OCD about it. Guess that's me...oh well.
I can tell you I have learned some things about what the lure needs to sound like to elicit the best response, and catch more fish as a result after making modifications, so it's paid off for me.
Jeff, the hydrophone is converting pressure waves into what you 'hear'. It's really impressive when run through a really responsive sound system, some of the 'noise' makes the air literally shake, but is hard to 'hear'.
Posted 1/15/2016 2:02 PM (#799735 - in reply to #799732) Subject: Re: Apex Predator/Scavenger
Location: Grand Rapids, MI
sworrall - 1/15/2016 2:05 PM They don't sound anything like the recordings (run it through analysis), and in hundreds of hours of recording underwater, we've never had a single fish make any noise. Not once, and we have very, very good equipment. You can occasionally 'hear' a large school of crappies or gills go by if they are brushing together. We've never recorded shad. If you're saying that racket is 'natural', well...I'd strongly argue it isn't even close. And that's exactly why the lures catch fish. it's not a bad thing some days for a bait to be obnoxiously loud and bright, not a bad thing at all.
Point was, you said "fish don't rattle" but they do. Fish make sounds you just haven't recorded any. Not only the fish themselves but when they're feeding, crashing through minnows, feeding on the surface, crushing crayfish, etc.
Natural sounds? I would suggest there are very few sounds that have not occurred in their "natural" setting so yes a crankbait sounds natural. You can't make me believe that little brain is capable of identifying a biologically produced sound or one that's mechanical. If we want to talk about eliciting a response because it is feeling something it's never felt before I can go along with that. Heck, change the pitch on a trolling motor blade so it doesn't feel like the ones they normally feel and it will probably get attention.
Posted 1/15/2016 2:19 PM (#799739 - in reply to #799735) Subject: Re: Apex Predator/Scavenger
Posts: 32914
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin
Will Schultz - 1/15/2016 2:02 PM
sworrall - 1/15/2016 2:05 PM They don't sound anything like the recordings (run it through analysis), and in hundreds of hours of recording underwater, we've never had a single fish make any noise. Not once, and we have very, very good equipment. You can occasionally 'hear' a large school of crappies or gills go by if they are brushing together. We've never recorded shad. If you're saying that racket is 'natural', well...I'd strongly argue it isn't even close. And that's exactly why the lures catch fish. it's not a bad thing some days for a bait to be obnoxiously loud and bright, not a bad thing at all.
Point was, you said "fish don't rattle" but they do. Fish make sounds you just haven't recorded any. Not only the fish themselves but when they're feeding, crashing through minnows, feeding on the surface, crushing crayfish, etc.
Natural sounds? I would suggest there are very few sounds that have not occurred in their "natural" setting so yes a crankbait sounds natural. You can't make me believe that little brain is capable of identifying a biologically produced sound or one that's mechanical. If we want to talk about eliciting a response because it is feeling something it's never felt before I can go along with that. Heck, change the pitch on a trolling motor blade so it doesn't feel like the ones they normally feel and it will probably get attention.
Metal on metal doesn't happen. Wood on metal doesn't happen. Sketching metal blades on aluminum rivets doesn't happen. Plastic on metal doesn't happen. Keep it in perspective, we are talking about what muskies eat, so prey species making those ridiculous noises? Not a chance. Fish do NOT 'rattle'. As I suggested, run the sounds through analysis. No way rattles in a plastic crankbait are sounds any other prey species makes. The racket the Echo Tail makes is off the charts, and they catch muskies.
You actually hit exactly on the point I am leading up to!
There IS no 'natural', so muskies will 'strike' darned near anything that moves. Somehow 'eat' has become interchangeable with 'strike', and there's a big difference. Either will get you a hookup if it is a committed action. I think people use 'eat' because it sounds cooler.
It's all stimulus/response to vibration and what passes as what we understand to be 'sound', exposure, and the added dimension of contrast and movement within the stereoscopic field of the muskie's vision.
Whatever hits the water the fish must react to. They are not capable or inclined to reason out any differences, but display a number of ingrained response levels to stimuli from 10,000 + years of evolving.
So Doug's 'If it moves, it's food' applies beautifully and simply. The varying degrees of the response are subject to thousands of variables both within and beyond the anglers control or influence, knowing as much about that as is possible will put more muskies in the net for anyone.
Pretending any lure imitates anything is nature is incorrect, but not consequential at all at the end of the day. Figure out what footprint creates the best opportunity strike response on any given day, and...game on. That's been a 45 year process for me, not an event, and I'm not even close to what I think is any clear understanding of the entire process yet even though I spend a lot of time with cameras, microphones, and more dangling underneath my boat in the way and with my nose in books.
Posted 1/15/2016 3:14 PM (#799757 - in reply to #799411) Subject: Re: Apex Predator/Scavenger
Location: Grand Rapids, MI
sworrall - What I was intending with "I would suggest there are very few sounds that have not occurred in their "natural" setting" is they've heard/felt these sounds their entire life, crankbaits, blades, rattles, transducers pinging, etc. I was in no way suggesting that a shad actually sounds exactly like a rattle trap. Shad and other fish are capable of making bones click (rattle), while there are also fish have ways to use their swim bladder to make a drumming sound.
Posted 1/15/2016 3:57 PM (#799764 - in reply to #799411) Subject: Re: Apex Predator/Scavenger
Posts: 8816
Sound is just another way to illicit a response and get your lure noticed in the absence of visual stimuli - dark/stained water, dark conditions, etc. I've long held the belief that in situations of low visibility we encounter a lot of fish we never see, that either follow unnoticed or flat out miss lures completely. Not that they don't miss in clearer water. I just think it happens a lot more in stained/muddy/etc. water than we probably realize.
Apex Predator/Scavenger