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Posts: 16632
Location: The desert | I'm looking to get a custom rod specifically for dbl 10s (8 and 9s, also).
I'm leaning toward 8'6 or 9 ft rod, but open to other suggested lengths. But don't have any preference on blanks, action, guides etc.
This is where you come in: if you were building the perfect blade rod, what would its specs be?
Also, I will be getting full fat cork handle so no need to go into the butt end of the rod.
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Posts: 4343
Location: Smith Creek | How much you looking to spend?
5M90HF blank and torzite guides, probably run about $500-600
Or Predator 90XH blank with SiC's, $300-400
Torzites are no joke. Something like 400% smoother than the next best (SiC) and you feel the difference.
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Posts: 16632
Location: The desert | Flambeauski - 11/14/2015 2:40 PM
How much you looking to spend?
5M90HF blank and torzite guides, probably run about $500-600
Or Predator 90XH blank with SiC's, $300-400
Torzites are no joke. Something like 400% smoother than the next best (SiC) and you feel the difference.
Money is no object  |
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Posts: 403
Location: Lakeville, MN | I like my 9'6" pred xh with 18" rear grip. couldnt afford torzite so i went with the fuji k-frame guides i like it a lot.
Call Lonnie at Thorne Brothers and talk to him he will set you up
Pointerpride102 - 11/14/2015 3:00 PM
Flambeauski - 11/14/2015 2:40 PM
How much you looking to spend?
5M90HF blank and torzite guides, probably run about $500-600
Or Predator 90XH blank with SiC's, $300-400
Torzites are no joke. Something like 400% smoother than the next best (SiC) and you feel the difference.
Money is no object ; ) |
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Posts: 72
| If money is no object,
Legend Elite 9 foot heavy blank(3-8 oz) with spiral wrapped torzite guides and a 20 inch full cork rear grip. A fuji palm support real seat would be great as well.
Thats my dream rod.
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Posts: 1638
Location: Minnesota | Go with the rod I let you try only cut 2 inches off the tip |
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Posts: 4053
Location: Land of the Musky | TI has 15 musky/pike blanks to pick from. 76, 9, 96, 10 and 10'6 in MH, XH and XXH blanks. Got specials on them too if you buy 5 packs and you can mix and match. You just need to email me if you want to mix them up. [email protected]
http://www.tackleindustries.com/muskypikerods.html
Enjoy.
James |
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Posts: 3518
Location: north central wisconsin | If you don't mind waiting for a few months, I'd have Ryan Jinkerson build you a rod from a TI blank, or that of your choosing. Spiral wrap, foregrip/handle length/balancing to suit your preference, you would be happy. Order now to get prior to next season. |
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Posts: 525
| 10'6" xxh TI with alconite or SiC guides. In the 13 plus years I've been building rods, anything more than alconite guide material is overkill in a freshwater application in my opinion. Braided line isn't going to hurt the ring on an alconite ever. You can literally take a file to the ring and not make a scratch in it. I would spend the saved $$ on a Tranx rather than a set of guides... |
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Posts: 4053
Location: Land of the Musky | Reef Hawg - 11/15/2015 8:28 AM
If you don't mind waiting for a few months, I'd have Ryan Jinkerson build you a rod from a TI blank, or that of your choosing. Spiral wrap, foregrip/handle length/balancing to suit your preference, you would be happy. Order now to get prior to next season.
Ryan has built me 2 rods and both are fantastic! Just shipped Ryan a 10' tele XH blank on Friday. |
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Posts: 4343
Location: Smith Creek | In the first 15 or so years I built rods I would've agreed with you on the Alconite or SiC.
The idea is not the guide will groove, heck braided line won't groove an aluminum oxide or most stainless guides. Line drag is the issue. Going with Torzites over SiC is like going from a $100 reel to a $250 reel. You have to crank the tension up on your reel when you switch to them. |
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Posts: 525
| I guess it's a point of return on cost for me. I'd rather have the $$ for a better reel than a guide set that the average person isn't going to be able to tell the difference on. When you're throwing muskie baits that weigh a few ounces up to a pound or so, I find it hard to believe that the difference of material between guide surfaces really is going to be that noticeable on a cast or retrieve. I could be wrong... |
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Posts: 4343
Location: Smith Creek | I understand your point, and I would've agreed before I actually used them. The average person CAN tell the difference, and it's significant. |
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Posts: 325
Location: In the slop! | Why spiral wrap? |
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Posts: 525
| Sledge51-
Have you ever had a casting rod with guides on top that felt like it wanted to roll over so the reel was on the bottom of the blank when you were fighting a big fish? Or have you ever seen the tip section of a casting rod with guides on top under a heavy load from fighting a fish? The tip section will be under an extreme torque and attempt roll towards the applied force from the fish. This can, and often times will cause the line to rub the blank on a conventional casting rod.
A spiral wrapped rod will take that torque out of the tip section of the blank because the line is already on the bottom of the blank where it naturally flows. Kind of like water, it wants to take the path of least resistance. Spiral wrapped rods, in my opinion and experience handle big fish better than a conventionally wrapped casting rod will, especially on a short line. |
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Posts: 4343
Location: Smith Creek | Personally I would not spiral wrap the rod unless it was specifically for jigging. When I reel bucktails the rod tip is pointed towards the water rather than the sky, I rarely if ever am pulling up on the blank, where the spiral wrap is most advantageous.
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Posts: 525
| As I said above, for me it is most beneficial when fighting fish. Spiral wraps are far superior in keeping the line off of the blank. You will not find a conventionally wrapped casting rod with guides on top and a load applied that will not want to roll so the guides are on the bottom. Set a rod and reel in a holder that will allow the rod to rotate and pull down on the line, the rod will rotate so the guides are down, and the reel as well for that matter, 100% of the time. Now if you hold the rod handle and prevent it form rotating, the tip will be torqued and still want to rotate. Also, the line between guides will be very near or rubbing the blank if not actually below the blank. I will not build another casting rod for myself that is not spiral wrapped. |
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Posts: 4343
Location: Smith Creek | I totally understand what you mean, but you spend .0001% of the time fighting fish and the rest casting and retrieving your lure.
Plus if your custom builder knows what he is doing he or she will build on the axis with the least amount of torque when a load is applied. And they can use smaller guides and more of them to reduce blank contact. |
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Posts: 525
| If you are referring to a "spine" of a blank that topic has been beaten to death on a couple rod building forums. I build on the straightest axis always. Regardless of where a spine is located on a blank, the blank will bend towards the applied force. With a spiral wrapped rod you can still use small guides and less of them to keep the line off the blank. This allows for a lighter build, and keeps the build closer to the intended design specifications of the blank. The more material added to the blank the farther it gets from the intended design. |
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Posts: 72
| I started rod building only 2 year ago so I am not an expert, but I will try a spiral wrapped rod next time. I think the biggest advantage would be if a could use 1 or 2 guides less. This does not sound a lot but it makes a huge difference.
Or I even try to use single foot micro guides. Well see. |
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Posts: 1828
| Flambeauski - 11/14/2015 2:40 PM
Torzites are no joke. Something like 400% smoother than the next best (SiC) and you feel the difference.
This is like saying a plane flies better over blacktop than over gravel. |
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Posts: 4343
Location: Smith Creek | No it isn't. Line comes in contact with the guides. Planes don't come into contact with the ground while they're flying.
Less friction on the line means longer casts and easier retrieve.
Why don't you stick to the physics of reel handle torque and stay out of the rod build threads? |
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Posts: 1828
| Flambeauski - 11/19/2015 7:59 AM
No it isn't. Line comes in contact with the guides. Planes don't come into contact with the ground while they're flying.
Less friction on the line means longer casts and easier retrieve.
Why don't you stick to the physics of reel handle torque and stay out of the rod build threads?
Ok, not the best analogy.
It's more like saying a polished stainless steel prop will help your truck's gas mileage while cruising down the highway, versus a chewed-up painted prop.
Sure, a new, polished, stainless prop is many, many times smoother than one with a rough finish, so there's WAY less drag on it. But in the big picture, that drag is negligible anyway.
I don't know about you, but I have to use my thumb on every single cast to prevent overruns.
I do understand friction. For there to be friction, objects have to be coming in contact with each other with force perpendicular to the direction of relative travel. yes, your line contacts the guides. But with how much force? very, very, very little. And the actual drag coefficient between the two is so low even with whatever normal materials us laymen use.
I actually don't like conflict and arguing that much, but I hate even worse when nonsense is pressed and people just take it as gospel without thinking critically first. |
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Posts: 1828
| Flambeauski - 11/19/2015 7:59 AM
Why don't you stick to the physics of reel handle torque and stay out of the rod build threads?
I came into the rod build thread to learn about what may make a great rod if I someday have money to make a customized, excellent rod. I read a lot of good tips and ideas, and one thing that just doesn't make sense. |
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Posts: 44
| Is there a formula or procedure for figuring the correct configuration for a spiral wrapprd rod?
Thanks in advance
jim |
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Posts: 4343
Location: Smith Creek | jim lock - 11/19/2015 8:14 AM
Is there a formula or procedure for figuring the correct configuration for a spiral wrapprd rod?
Thanks in advance
jim
Each blank will be different. Best to static test and move them around from there.
Lots of configurations online, spacing is usually the same as a standard wrap. |
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Posts: 4343
Location: Smith Creek | jaultman - 11/19/2015 8:10 AM
Flambeauski - 11/19/2015 7:59 AM
No it isn't. Line comes in contact with the guides. Planes don't come into contact with the ground while they're flying.
Less friction on the line means longer casts and easier retrieve.
Why don't you stick to the physics of reel handle torque and stay out of the rod build threads?
Ok, not the best analogy.
It's more like saying a polished stainless steel prop will help your truck's gas mileage while cruising down the highway, versus a chewed-up painted prop.
Sure, a new, polished, stainless prop is many, many times smoother than one with a rough finish, so there's WAY less drag on it. But in the big picture, that drag is negligible anyway.
I don't know about you, but I have to use my thumb on every single cast to prevent overruns.
I do understand friction. For there to be friction, objects have to be coming in contact with each other with force perpendicular to the direction of relative travel. yes, your line contacts the guides. But with how much force? very, very, very little. And the actual drag coefficient between the two is so low even with whatever normal materials us laymen use.
I actually don't like conflict and arguing that much, but I hate even worse when nonsense is pressed and people just take it as gospel without thinking critically first.
Got some line that you've used for a whole season? Reverse it and compare the used and unused sections. Friction with the line guides did that.
Using the same blanks I can cast about 10-15% farther with Torzites over SiC's, and I suspect it would be even more over stainless or recoils. |
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Posts: 525
| Hey we agree on something! Haha!
I usually set the guides up using surgical tubing to hold them in place, mount a reel in the seat and run the line through the guides and apply pressure to the line. I move guides as needed, add or subtract guides if needed as well. My goal in this process is to get the line to follow the curve of the blank as closely as possible, eliminating any sharp angles in the flow of the line while keeping the line off of the blank.
I usually use the "fast spiral" where the line is transitioned to the bottom of the blank in the first three guides with the first guide at 0 degrees (top of the blank), the second guide at 90 degrees, either left or right depending upon which side the reel handle is on, and the third guide at 180 degrees (bottom of the blank). From there out it's running guides spaced to follow the curve of the blank as stated above. |
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Posts: 1828
| Flambeauski - 11/19/2015 8:43 AM
Got some line that you've used for a whole season? Reverse it and compare the used and unused sections. Friction with the line guides did that.
Obviously. Doesn't mean that it's significant enough to impact cast distance any appreciable amount when compared to wind drag on the projectile or drag on the spool from bearings, brakes, and your thumb. The friction is many times greater during the retrieve than the cast.
Flambeauski - 11/19/2015 8:43 AM
Using the same blanks I can cast about 10-15% farther with Torzites over SiC's, and I suspect it would be even more over stainless or recoils.
I can't argue with your experience. Doesn't make sense to me, but if that's what you've observed, then there must be something to it. |
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Posts: 4343
Location: Smith Creek | It's hard to quantify the difference in the ease of retrieve, but it's easily noticeable.
I stated this before, but I am typically skeptical when a guide or component manufacturer makes a claim about a product they're charging a lot of bones for. In this case the claim matches the performance. I didn't think it would, but it did. I'm going to rewrap 3 or 4 of my regular rotation rods with torzites this winter, and I'm a cheap SOB. |
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Posts: 1828
| Do you think you might get more bang for your buck by just doing the guide at the tip? Seems like the line is just barely even touching the other guides, except when the rod is really loaded up. |
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Posts: 2325
Location: Chisholm, MN | I can't really say whether or not my fancy guides on my predator make a difference in casting distance or not. I don't believe it makes a hug difference. Sure my bucktail set up is the best I've ever had (Tranx/9'6" Predator), but I would say the major factor is a smooth real, and the ability of the rod to load up with the right bait. I would be willing to bet I wouldn't notice a difference with some cheaper guides...but who knows.
A side note. Jesse, you're pretty good with physics or or social studies or whatever we're talking about here, but I did prove you wrong one time about increasing spool size with more line = a faster retrieve  Remember that discussion? |
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Posts: 1828
| Yes you caught me in a time of weakness! |
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Posts: 4343
Location: Smith Creek | You definitely have a greater angle on the tip, so yeah, if you didn't want to drop the coin on a guide set the tip would be a good start. But each guide has quite a bit of pressure on it when the rod is working, which is when a lack of friction will be most useful.
If you look at newer or custom rods you'll notice that most are going with more and smaller guides. Doing so reduces line slap but increases surface area the line is running over. Increasing surface area increases friction. While it isn't a lot it is noticeable. Cast and retrieve a rod with stainless inserts instead of ceramic and you'll see what I mean.
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Posts: 525
| Sounds like someone needs to get their middle school kid to do a science fair project on the amount of friction produced when burning double tens with 80lb and 100lb braid through Torzite, SiC, and Alconite guide sets!!! It would be interesting to be able to get an exact measure of the friction for each type of guide. |
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Posts: 4343
Location: Smith Creek | The folks from Fuji did a cool demonstration, they have several guides hanging there and they run some mono through each and saw back and forth with equal pressure till the line breaks. I think the line broke in the stainless after about 400 times back and forth, the SiC was like 1000 and the torzite was like 4000.
I didn't check to make sure all their stuff was calibrated perfectly but it's a cool demonstration nonetheless. I think they might have something on youtube about it. |
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Posts: 4053
Location: Land of the Musky | Flambeauski - 11/19/2015 2:46 PM
The folks from Fuji did a cool demonstration, they have several guides hanging there and they run some mono through each and saw back and forth with equal pressure till the line breaks. I think the line broke in the stainless after about 400 times back and forth, the SiC was like 1000 and the torzite was like 4000.
I didn't check to make sure all their stuff was calibrated perfectly but it's a cool demonstration nonetheless. I think they might have something on youtube about it.
Cool. I wonder what braid would result in and if braid would "win" for certain guide ring material and cut through it... |
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Posts: 4343
Location: Smith Creek | I've seen it "beat" Recoil guides. Not sure what exactly those are made of, some sort of alloy. |
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Posts: 231
| I'm no scientist here. Just thought it was interesting on the Torzite demo. If you can past the "Alfred Hitchcock" voice of the narrator, it's worth the watch
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=PSTFnDH2t6Y |
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