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Posts: 134
| Anybody hear some of these baits are now plastic and not wood? I got a report that the 10 inchers r plastic to keep up with demand? |
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| Did your source confuse the Custom X shift from All wood to some wood baits and others made in Plastic. I would highly doubt Super Natural would try and slide that under the radar and keep charging the same price. I just dont see that happening given the people behind the product. |
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Location: WI | Think I read that a year ago some were made of plastic, and other sizes were wood. But I think they're all wood. Ask Duff on Facebook, or he'll probably reply here. Awesome lures! |
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Location: Money, PA | I seriously don't know what the fuss is all about considering wood vs. plastic....Did you know that these days you can actually control the weight and densities of certain plastics? So many more bait makers are moving away from wood....Do you know why? Inconsistencies and inconveniences....You can never control what nature has made and no two pieces of wood are the same. In production bait making, I feel that is a serious drawback for me. Wood also breaks down quicker, is less durable and water logs...My baits are made from plastic basically...have you ever seen the action of them? IMO there are few crankbaits on the market that pound and move like mine...
If Duff makes them from plastic and achieves the same action, which is totally possible, it would benefit not only him, but all those who buy the baits. So whats the difference? It would make all those "tree huggers" a little happier too!  |
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Location: Oconto Falls, WI | ShutUpNFish - 1/29/2015 1:03 PM
I seriously don't know what the fuss is all about considering wood vs. plastic....Did you know that these days you can actually control the weight and densities of certain plastics? So many more bait makers are moving away from wood....Do you know why? Inconsistencies and inconveniences....You can never control what nature has made and no two pieces of wood are the same. In production bait making, I feel that is a serious drawback for me. Wood also breaks down quicker, is less durable and water logs...My baits are made from plastic basically...have you ever seen the action of them? IMO there are few crankbaits on the market that pound and move like mine...
If Duff makes them from plastic and achieves the same action, which is totally possible, it would benefit not only him, but all those who buy the baits. So whats the difference? It would make all those "tree huggers" a little happier too! :)
I think the point is if they are now plastic can the same price be justified considering most of the original price was due to the labor involved in making the bait from wood. |
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Location: Minneapolis, MN | CiscoKid - 1/30/2015 10:05 AM
ShutUpNFish - 1/29/2015 1:03 PM
I seriously don't know what the fuss is all about considering wood vs. plastic....Did you know that these days you can actually control the weight and densities of certain plastics? So many more bait makers are moving away from wood....Do you know why? Inconsistencies and inconveniences....You can never control what nature has made and no two pieces of wood are the same. In production bait making, I feel that is a serious drawback for me. Wood also breaks down quicker, is less durable and water logs...My baits are made from plastic basically...have you ever seen the action of them? IMO there are few crankbaits on the market that pound and move like mine...
If Duff makes them from plastic and achieves the same action, which is totally possible, it would benefit not only him, but all those who buy the baits. So whats the difference? It would make all those "tree huggers" a little happier too! :)
I think the point is if they are now plastic can the same price be justified considering most of the original price was due to the labor involved in making the bait from wood.
The price is justified as long as people are willing to pay said price. If it's still a unique bait and they don't produce a lot of them, then the price will probably stay up there. Personally I pay for what an item does, what it's made out of only comes into play if different materials lead to a different experience. |
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Posts: 455
| Here they are going to be plastic. People want wood. Ever see anybody looking for plastic Tuff shads on the trade section. I have not. As soon as the switch takes place the price on the wood will double. |
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Location: Money, PA | First, FYI theres a lot of work that goes into poured plastic lures....each has their pros and cons in regards to building them, something you would have to experience first hand before passing such judgment. Theres a lot of work that goes into any hand crafted lure...
Second, If you read my post you will see that I mention keeping action, shape, lip the same....The action, shape, etc. of the old tuff shads compared to the new plastic ones are not comparable....two totally different lures. And yes, I do see some people preferring the new ones, yes... I did say, however, that with the same lip design and resin body of the preferred weight will do the same thing.
wood or plastic are simply materials that make up a lure....whats it really matter as long as it produces fish or performs the way the angler wants? |
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Posts: 246
Location: Grand Marais, MN | I think first we should find out from the guys making them before we speculate on everything
But in regards to plastic versus wood, it is difficult to get a lure of same weight AND buoyancy, materials are just hard to match most of the time. I don't think they will be the same, not to say they will be worse, just different. |
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Location: On the water | I bought a Headlock at the Chicago Musky Show and it was wood and they didn't say anything about a plastic version, all they had was wood.
Good Luck, Tom |
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Posts: 742
Location: Grand Rapids MN | There are quality baits made in all materials. I agree with Paul that the water doesn't care what it's made out as long as the characteristics that create the action are the same. This is to put it shortly.
The responses to this post stem deeper than just supernaturals going plastic. There has been a lot of 'haters' popping up in the basement section relating to lure construction. Even recently poor James simply asked if anyone has used rapid prototyping to test concepts for baits only to get responses of 'plastic china junk' and not being a true lure maker. Only a few true responses out of the whole thread that addressed his question.
There are a lot of plastic/resin baits made in the USA that are quality products and have been around for a long time. Granted James admits his baits are made overseas in order to compete in that market but I also don't think there is a wood bait maker out there at this second that has given back to the community more than he has. Support what you want personally by buying their products as I will continue to purchase what I want and works for me. There's a spot in my box for my beloved wood baits and a spot for my 'other' material baits. Doubt you will ever not see a Jake, Grandma, DDD, Hammer, or Legend lure in my box anytime soon! |
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Posts: 6
| If the bait catches fish....which it does, then people will pay for it.
Standard economics at its finest right here! |
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Location: Oconto Falls, WI | ShutUpNFish - 1/30/2015 10:57 AM
First, FYI theres a lot of work that goes into poured plastic lures....each has their pros and cons in regards to building them, something you would have to experience first hand before passing such judgment. Theres a lot of work that goes into any hand crafted lure...
Second, If you read my post you will see that I mention keeping action, shape, lip the same....The action, shape, etc. of the old tuff shads compared to the new plastic ones are not comparable....two totally different lures. And yes, I do see some people preferring the new ones, yes... I did say, however, that with the same lip design and resin body of the preferred weight will do the same thing.
wood or plastic are simply materials that make up a lure....whats it really matter as long as it produces fish or performs the way the angler wants?
I didn't say it took less work with the plastic, nor did I say it wasn't worth as much if plastic. At least not to all anglers. Some may feel that plastic baits just aren't worth as much. That is their right, and that will show up with sales.
There are usually two reasons baitmakers go to plastic. One is consistency, and the other is ease of manufacturing. I doubt if the switch is made to plastic if it actually makes it more difficult and time consuming to make, but I could be wrong.
Some anglers want wood, and some want plastic. Some baitmakers want to build out of wood, and some out of plastic.
Whenever there is a change to a bait, whether it be the material of how it is made, the anglers will get nervous. Sometimes the change is to the better, and other times it is not. Accept the fact that we will question the change and if it is worthwhile due to us worrying about if the bait will continue to be productive and worth the money. As a consumer we have the right to question price whether it be vocally or through our actions. It doesn't matter if it is lures, cars, houses, or whatever.
Ever haggle on the price of a car, or on a house? |
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Posts: 411
Location: Waconia,MN | I'm totally on board with Paul. I just recently started building baits, some of plastic and wood. It's cheaper for me to build them outta wood, and probably more time consuming to make them out of plastic. Downhillski is right on the money, if it catches fish what does it matter |
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Posts: 791
Location: WI | I know for a fact that at least 8 headlocks that were purchased from Chicago are resin.
I don't think the issue here is what is better or stronger or even more work. The issue is that they were sold as wood lures and are not. At 80+ bucks they would be the most expensive resin baits ever.
I get it as we make the all of our baits from wood and have been messing around with resin for our gliders to help with weighting. There is no question that resin still take time. But it is less time. And once it comes time to paint there is no question that there is less work involved. No sealing. Less priming. Those who only make from resin can argue this but I have done a. Good deal of both and there is no question. I have a full wood shop with high quality tools and I know how to use them. I have far less experience with resin and I'm still faster with it.
I think the question here is more the way that it is kept secret. I have to assume for fear that it will effect sales. But as I told my friends who have there resin headlocks , how will this effect things once it is common knowledge. |
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Posts: 600
| I think we need the maker, Duff, to chime in on this one. |
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Location: WI | I agree. Although he has addressed it to those who questioned it and some of them are resin. It is really up to duff to address it publicly.
I don't mean to cause trouble it's just that as an owners of a number of these I want what was advertised. These things are bought and sold like stocks and I want to know that if I buy a resin bait I know it. I personally think that this will change how these are traded. When this came out on Fb first thing I did is drill a pin hole in. The belly to see what my newer ones were. |
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Posts: 455
| Just curious but how did you notice they were different? |
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Posts: 600
| His facebook page says they are made of western red cedar. |
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Posts: 411
Location: Waconia,MN | Well the material should still not affect the price, if it still has the same action. I could understand wanting to return it if you're a person who only likes to use just wood, but too return it cause you think you may have paid to much for a resin bait doesn't make sense, it's still a headlock. |
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Location: Money, PA | No argument or problems or trouble guys...it is healthy good wholesome debate and/or sharing of opinions.....Before I go any further, I want to stress that I do read and appreciate everyone's posts of opinion with an open mind, as long as everyone does the same, we should be able to discuss this topic without chaos....
I make a resin bait...there are really no "secrets"...remember, theres something out there called google. I admit I did some searching when I first started and watched some videos, etc. But do not think those may all work for your application, because I alpplied little to works works for me that I found online. Trial and error after some online research is the way to go for your application. I often get asked how I do it or what percentages I mix...I do not often answer not because its a secret, but because what works for me, may not work for you...
I personally stopped using wood, because I developed allergies to the dust of certain woods I was using; so I decided to move to resin....Is it less work? Perhaps a little, but the real question is "Is a resin bait less work from start to finish?" Certain processes which are almost essential with resin make the start to finish process about the same for me. I guess it all has to do with many factors like shapes, sizes and quality of finish.
Now back to topic....If the new headlocks came out in plastic or resin and had that same action; Theres NO DOUBT in my mind, I would want the plastic. For various/obvious reasons....kinda like aluminum vs. carbon arrows...an analogy I've been using for years; even back when aluminum arrow guys thought they still had an argument. Does anyone even use aluminum arrows anymore?? In closing, coming from an old school Wiley Wood guy....Wood scares me more; because like a good friend stated to me through a recent email...."Many forget the days of buying 6 wooden Reef Hogs just to get one good one."
Bottom line is that if theres something that ain't right about how one of my baits runs, its totally not beyond my control to fix it. |
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Posts: 600
| I totally agree with Paul about resin baits. ^^^^^^^ The only thing with the supernatural baits is that he is advertising them as wood. If he wants to change to resin, he just needs to make it public knowledge to his consumers. |
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| muddymusky - 2/2/2015 2:29 PM
I totally agree with Paul about resin baits. ^^^^^^^ The only thing with the supernatural baits is that he is advertising them as wood. If he wants to change to resin, he just needs to make it public knowledge to his consumers.
X2. Think, HI plastic Suicks = Perfection! I for one, love the consistency of the plastic lures. Win, win in my book. |
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| I prefer plastic crankbaits. When you catch a lot of fish the bait takes a lot of abuse. I want the durability of plastic over wood any day. |
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| I prefer wood baits. Probably more pro's to plastic but if I have a choice, I would take the wood. Kinda like a rock star prefers old wood guitars to modern Wood or other material In most cases yet I'm sure they have all types. |
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| Lot of people still use wood arrows. Byron Ferguson comes to mind. |
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Location: Apollo, PA | Well, my opinion on wood vs resin, is I could care less as long as they catch fish. I am older and grew up with wooden baits, but look at the legend lures, they have caught tons of fish and big ones.
I do know Duff, and he will always put out a great product, he is old school. As far as price, that is up to the market demands, resin baits in my mind shouldn't be cheaper cause they are resin.
Prices are up to the makers, you either buy the baits or you don't. I hope Duff chimes in soon. His baits are certainly unique , but are being knocked off as we speak...... I know, it happens, and doesn't have anything to do with this issue.
Grandmas started out as wood, but I think the plastic ones have done pretty well..lol and how bout the depthraiders, great bait, and plastic. So on and so forth |
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Posts: 455
| You have it backwards the consumer drives the price. It remains to be seen if people will pay. It is pointless to argue what is better because the consumer buys what they want. I have a few but will not be buying any plastic no matter how they work because I like wood. I got rid of all my plastic baits years ago and am never going back. Why because that's what I want. Those who don`t care what they are made of I`m sure will still buy them. |
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Location: Apollo, PA | semantics, whatevaaaaaaa |
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Posts: 122
| muddymusky - 2/1/2015 1:31 PM
His facebook page says they are made of western red cedar.
It looks like the page has changed and no longer says what they are made from. |
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Location: Money, PA | Using wood arrows is a choice to be nostalgic more so than believing they are more effective or more durable or overall better. The point was obviously missed.
Bottom line and point is who cares what the material used is, as long as the builders do their best to make sure the lures are effective for catching fish. Some people use wood then cake 6 coats of epoxy on top, essentially turning wood into plastic...lol. Again, as long as the bait does the job.....After that its the choice of the consumer to buy what they want. However, if a consumer ONLY buys because lures are wooden for the sake of being wood; I cannot help but to say that is shear ignorance, stubbornness or nonsense. It is what it is. |
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| i love my Headlocks for the action and results regardless of what's inside the paintjob.
at the same time, i like feeling that i'm being dealt with in an open manner, especially when paying that much money for a lure. a good example is when Suick introduced plastic versions of their baits, they made it very clear what you were buying and you have the option of getting one or the other based on your choice and your preference as the consumer. if there's been a change to the material for some Headlocks, hopefully this will be out in the open just as a way to help how people "feel" about it.
and, the fish won't know the difference and will still lose their minds over 'em...
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Posts: 253
Location: On the water | When I purchased my Headlock, I didn’t think about how it was made,
but only the reputation of the lure itself. And I can’t wait to try it.
Good Luck to All, Tom |
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Posts: 791
Location: WI | This is why I was upset. I have no doubt that once dialed in the will run more consistent than ever. But from what I had heard there was a lot of testing to do yet. For that money I too want to know what I'm getting.
First thing I did when my buddy contacted me about his resin ones, Is I drilled a hole in the belly of my most recent purchase from duff. I bought it only a few weeks before the Chicago show and was second-guessing if that one was wood or not. Hopefully they come out and say something about this. My feeling is that they will not until after the MN show unless forced. |
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Posts: 1202
Location: Money, PA | I totally agree, the consumer should know what a bait is made from or if there is a change in materials....Absolutely!
That said, if the manufacturer told you he was making his new lures from a new more efficient and tougher material....plastic, foam, dirt or rocks for that matter; would you give it a try? It sounds to me like some here commenting would not and completely turn their backs the way things sound here and IMHO, that is downright ridiculous (but to each his own). If the manufacturer sets his/her price at $35 or $80 or $100 its no matter....their price is based on a clear calculation of demand and the time he puts into his work NOT the material! And his final decision on price is really nobody else's business - you either buy it or you don't.... |
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | ShutUpNFish - 2/3/2015 1:22 PM
I totally agree, the consumer should know what a bait is made from or if there is a change in materials....Absolutely!
That said, if the manufacturer told you he was making his new lures from a new more efficient and tougher material....plastic, foam, dirt or rocks for that matter; would you give it a try? It sounds to me like some here commenting would not and completely turn their backs the way things sound here and IMHO, that is downright ridiculous (but to each his own). If the manufacturer sets his/her price at $35 or $80 or $100 its no matter....their price is based on a clear calculation of demand and the time he puts into his work NOT the material! And his final decision on price is really nobody else's business - you either buy it or you don't....
What this guy said. |
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Location: Sycamore, IL | If anyone got a resin Headlock that they want to sell shoot me a PM...I would probably take it off your hands! |
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| How do you know if it's wood or plastic?? |
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| I prefer wood,,,that's why I take cialis |
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Posts: 455
| Ignorance? Why because I like things a certain way. Maybe the fish don`t care but they don`t buy the lures. |
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Posts: 89
| I bought two headlocks at the Chicago muskie show, both resin. I would confidently say 75% of the baits he had there were resin. You can tell by looking at the top ridge of the bait. If it is a little flat on the top, it is resin. If it is perfectly round, it is wood. |
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Posts: 156
| I'm not one to start or take part in these controversies, but after seeing this thread I went and checked out my three recent purchases of Supernatural Big Baits...
Upon inspection, one is clearly resin, two are clearly wood. The paint where the screw is inserted under the lip is tell-tale. The paint on the wood ones is a bit cracked from insertion of the screw (from where the wood "gave" a bit), and I can see wood underneath. The other bait has very clean lines to it where the screw is inserted. I decided to "knock" on the baits...the sound was completely different between the resin bait and the two wood baits. It was then I noticed how much heavier the resin bait seemed to my hand (on a comparable size basis). So I got the scale out:
10" Headlock (purchased from Big Wood Musky Lures in Early Jan) = 7.2oz (Resin)
12" Headlock (purchased at Chicago Musky Expo) = 6.5oz (Wood)
12" Mattlock (purchased at Chicago Musky Expo) = 8oz (Wood)
As the previous noted by the above poster, the resin bait has bit more "flat" top, and it's especially noticeable on the "nose" of the bait looking down towards the lip.
Now, I'm not going to make any accusations one way or the other, but I will just post how I "feel":
1.)Most important of all my "feelings" - nobody can tell me given the weight differential that these baits are going to run "the same" regardless of the material. The smaller headlock is clearly heavier on a shorter length and will move differently in the water. I'm not judging whether this is good or bad. It's just "not the same".
2.)I 100% agree with those that posted that this should have been stated up front by the maker. If a baits reputation has been built on a certain make, material, action, etc...then the maker decides to change it and sell it under the same pretense then that is wrong (IMHO). The customer has 100% right to know what he/she is getting, so they can make the most informed choice possible.
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Location: MN | Im sure the maker doesn't know what to do at this point. Why they thought they could pass a change off with out someone noticing boggles the mind. I bet there sales drop till they address this issue and even then sales might never recover. Hope the extra few bucks they made was worth peeing their reputation away. |
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Posts: 386
| I also got two only to realize they are resin. The issue for me is that there is just too much $$ to risk on the unknown. I would have waited to hear about the differences and made my decision with an open mind if the info was made available. It is my right to be able to make an informed decision as a consumer, is it not? |
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Posts: 72
| gopackgo - 2/4/2015 9:11 PM
I also got two only to realize they are resin. NOT HAPPY! Too much $$ to risk on the unknown. I would have waited to hear about the differences and made my decision with an open mind if the info was made available. It is my right to be able to make an informed decision as a consumer, is it not?
Exactly. |
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Location: WI | One of my buddies sent his back to duff in exchange for wood. |
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Posts: 156
| Just confirmed with a buddy of mine that his 10" Headlock purchased at Chicago Musky Expo is made of resin. |
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Posts: 427
Location: Planet Meltdown | I purchased a 10" Headlock from Bigwood a few weeks ago, one of the ones left over from the Chicago show. It was resin. I contacted Duff and he was more than happy to replace it. I received my replacement today and Duff even refunded my shipping charges. I've got nothing against resin baits I'd just rather wait to get feedback on them before dropping the coin. |
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Posts: 386
| Can someone please pm me Duff's contact info? Much appreciated! |
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Posts: 791
Location: WI | [email protected] |
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Posts: 386
| Clarification just received directly from Duff. He states that "All the blanks have a flat all the way around the circumference, a flat spot in necessary for the cutter's reference" regardless of whether wood or resin.
As such, I don't know how to determine the makeup of the lure, but he also informed me that anyone who purchased from Big Wood Tackle recently received wood (confirmed by Kyle at Big Wood). So, I will rest under the assumption that the one's I received, which both have a slightly flattened area on top, are in fact wood.
I've asked Duff to address this himself on this post. We'll see . . . |
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Posts: 47
| I would think you'll want some of each for different situations. I've definately seen where the big girls prefer big wood over plastic, unless plastic is all they have in front of them.. |
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Location: Money, PA | lol....some of you guys crack me up! |
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Location: Minnesota: where it's tough to be a sportsfan! | I think we are dealing with a misconception here more than anything. A resin or plastic bait if injection molded is as good if not better than a wood bait. Unfortunately a part of each bait sold needs to help pay for that mold. A cheapo around $10K a multi cavity with weighting inserts...up to $70K. There's not much cheap about plastics anymore when it comes down to engineered resins. You can dial the specific gravity to the point where you do not need weighting even. You can multishot the bait to layer heavier material on the bottom. I do a number of bait repairs each winter, I would much rather rep[air a plastic bait than a wood one. You can never match the density of a piece of wood with repairs. |
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Posts: 386
| The point isn't about cost in making the lure -- it's about knowing what one is getting. Does it run the same or different? Does it hold up the same or different? I like to be well informed about my big purchases BEFORE I make them, not after. |
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| Yes this thread is quite interesting; it really shows how peculiar people can be. It seems like some folks here even have an agenda... Funny thing is that for me if I bought a wood bait and found out a resin bait was available I would be wanting to exchange it for the resin one. I would have confidence knowing I have a good working bait because the density is per the designers specification with no variations. I would know it’s a bait that will last much longer and stay consistent. And from Duff’s perspective, anything underneath that top coat could be considered proprietary information, he’s doesn’t have to say a thing about how it’s made. Some of the designs on the bait have already been copied. |
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| Mike, not when they are listed as made from Western Red Cedar when in fact they are now plastic. We were led to believe these were the cedar ones that we all fell in love with. Had I known they weren't wood, I would have waited on buying them until I heard that they run exactly like the wood ones. We were all mislead. |
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Posts: 386
| Chlohop wrote: Mike, not when they are listed as made from Western Red Cedar when in fact they are now plastic. We were led to believe these were the cedar ones that we all fell in love with. Had I known they weren't wood, I would have waited on buying them until I heard that they run exactly like the wood ones. We were all mislead.
BINGO! |
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Location: WI | Mike, as said before the issue is not whether resin is a good product to make a strong consistent bait. It is rather, that we who recently bought a bait for top dollar were lead to believe that it was made of wood. Just like all the other baits that made this brand so popular. If tested properly you could make a very good argument that it would be a better bait. But as stated by them to one of us, there needed to be extensive water time before made available.
This is not a hidden agenda on my part. This is the fact that I recently purchased two baits at 80+ bucks a piece and now have. To wonder.
When I buy a bait from you or hammer I know what I am getting. I am getting a quality resin bait that had a proven record. And that's a 20 something dollar bait. The same should be said for anyone else. Especially at such a high price. Say what you will but that's my piece. I as a consumer am disappointed. |
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Location: WI | Mine are made out of musky crack. They work. Who gives a hoot what's under the clear coat. I'm sure people will have no problem selling theirs, as long as they didn't drill into them to feed their curiosity. |
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Location: MN | It still lists this on the website. " Meticulously crafted with hand selected, Western Red Cedar,..." Now I'm curious to check my buddies and my baits that we purchased recently.
Maybe he should come out with a second company called Big Resin Musky Lures. |
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Posts: 216
| Lol.^^ Just checked out the Facebook page and saw the custom colors for the Chicago show, anybody that bought a "neon perch" or "Georgian guide" in 12" and aren't happy with it just shoot me a pm and I'll take em off your hands. I'll never be able to make it to a show and would probly be forever on a list for a pair. I understand that ppl want to know what they are buying but wood or plastic I don't care,I'll do the testing and let you know how they do. |
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Posts: 1360
Location: Lake "y" cause lake"x" got over fished | I think this is more of a consumer curiosity issue more then anything. no need to stop the thread. I actually am VERY interested in this thread as I initially planned on picking up one or two at the show. But now I wont until the smoke clears. Once it clears though, you better believe I'm getting one |
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Posts: 90
| Lester Neigard - 2/5/2015 4:42 PM
Why should it be locked? Can people not share their complaints of false advertising? Some may not care one way or the other; however, some might be grateful to learn what is actually going on with the production.
I'm not saying it should or shouldn't be locked. I'm just surprised that it isn't! I DO, however, think that customers should have been informed of a change in the material their prized purchase was made out of. I don't think people would be nearly as upset if it were a $20 bait. Instead the baits are $75 plus and not exactly easy to come by. People can't wait to get there hands on them and when they finally do, it's not the advertised product. Will they still work-yes. Will they be more durable-yes. Will they streamline his finishing process-yes. Will they run exactly like the cedar-probably not.
*Tuff Shad made a small run of PVC baits years back and they still caught fish. Boss Shad offers a PVC version of their popular 4.5" bait and it has caught some GIANTS! |
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Posts: 600
| Quote from MstrMusky:
10" Headlock (purchased from Big Wood Musky Lures in Early Jan) = 7.2oz (Resin)
12" Headlock (purchased at Chicago Musky Expo) = 6.5oz (Wood)
12" Mattlock (purchased at Chicago Musky Expo) = 8oz (Wood)
Bigwood site says the 12" mattlock should be 9.5oz
Big Wood Musky Lures is proud to be the exclusive retailer of the Bigwood Supernatural; a custom, hand made and depth adjustable Muskie crankbait from Supernatural Big Baits. The Bigwood Supernatural, AKA Fat Headlock, AKA Mattlock, has an aggressive and mean, wide wobble that just Thumps! The Big Wood Supernatural has the widest and most aggressive wandering pattern or "walk" of the three Supernatural Big Baits offered here at Big Wood Musky Lures. Meticulously crafted with hand selected, Western Red Cedar, the key to this musky lure's unique action is the giant, .125 aluminum lip. With three depth settings available, this one musky lure gives you the versatility of three musky lure's. Remove the split ring and adjust the steel pin to set depth ranges. 60 feet of 100# braided line in the front hole (shallow position) get's you 14 to 16 feet deep at 3.3 MPH. Depths from 8' to over 30' are achievable with this crankbait. Adjust line length, speed and/or hole position to get higher or deeper in the water column. All colors of the Bigwood Supernatural have 6 coats of envirotex clear coat and 3D eyes. Heavy duty hardware includes .092 epoxied, stainless steel eye screws, #7 spro stainless steel split rings and 8/0, nickel plated Mustad Treble hooks. (suited for saltwater as well as freshwater fishing) 9.5 oz. with a 12" body length. The Bigwood Supernatural is made to tame giant Muskies! 14" tackle box depth. Supplies are Limited on these hand made, custom crankbaits!
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Posts: 131
| As one of the few retailers of Supernatural Big Baits, I might be able to shed some light on a few points here.
First off, for those that are confused, Supernatural Big Baits is the manufacturer and Big Wood Musky Lures is a retailer.
The description on my website under the Big Wood Supernatural about being made of "Western Red Cedar" is accurate. The Big Wood, AKA Mattlock is not the bait in question here. The Big Wood has always been made of wood and for the foreseeable future will continue to be made of wood. (a fact that those who prefer wood should take note of) It is the 10" and 12" Headlock that are in question.
It's a fact that there have recently been both resin and wood Headlocks released to the public. As far as anybody purposely trying to deceive the buying public or pass something off as something else intentionally, I don't see it. In the future most, if not all Headlocks will be made of resin. As this transition takes place, baits have been made out of both materials. Mistakes were made and some baits were intermingled. Although I can't speak for the manufacturer as to exactly how this happened, I can say definitively that if you think you have a resin bait and thought you were buying wood and want wood, a refund or exchange is a pretty simple process. That is if you haven't drilled holes in your bait or stripped off the finish...
Although I believe all of the Headlocks sold through Big Wood Musky Lures have been wood, if you bought one from me and don't want it for any reason, let me know via email at [email protected]. Please don't respond here or Facebook, but through email only.
So now we know that Headlocks are moving from wood to resin. What few people know is that Headlocks were originally made of resin and moved to wood. That's right. The first 200 hundred or so Headlocks were resin baits and not only did they catch fish, but they caught big fish and lot's of them. Two of these baits, had broken because they were stepped on, likely in cold weather. They did not break catching fish or being pounded into rocks, they broke from carelessness and abuse. Because 1% of these baits broke, a change was made from resin to wood in an effort to improve the product. That particular mix of resin was deemed too brittle. When the wood baits came out they still caught fish and lot's of them.
Here we are now with Headlocks moving back to resin. Any statements about the resin baits being untested is entirely inaccurate. The driving force behind the changes has been to improve the product. In this case it is a win/win because the production should go up in addition to the baits being even more dialed in and durable.
Simply put, these baits have been fish catching machines in every stage of their existence in either resin or wood. In the 7 years Big Wood Musky Lures has been around, I've never seen anything like the demand that exists for both Headlocks and Big Wood Supernaturals. I've talked to people that told me they have been waiting for over two years to get one. Entire batches of baits have sold out through Big Wood in less than 25 minutes. For those that think demand is going to plummet because of this mishap, I highly doubt that will happen.
With regards to the weight of the Big Wood, AKA Mattlock listed on my website and recent weigh in's of this bait, I will grab a sample of a dozen or so Big Wood's and weigh them with an electronic scale. I think that particular bait may have slimmed down just a bit over the last few years and my listed weight may need to be updated. Of course these baits are currently out of stock, but the next batch should be in, in a few weeks and I'll update the website then if needed. As some have noted above, there are natural variances in wood baits and the weight from bait to bait is not always consistent.
Hope this helps to clarify a few things. For those that have purchased these or any baits from Big Wood, thank you. Your business is much appreciated!
Kyle |
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Posts: 1202
Location: Money, PA | ^^^^There ya have it!^^^^
You guys are missing the point though....The $80 or $100 price tag has NOTHING to do with the bait being made out of WOOD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
You want to know what your bait is made of? email Duff Thury! Maybe he just forgot to update his website for goodness sake!
Helloooooooooooo |
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Posts: 750
Location: Minneapolis, MN | Here's the issue with this thread, you have multiple people have multiple conversations in it. You have people discussing wood vs. resin and people talking about the possibility of false advertising, but they are responding to each other. |
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Posts: 386
| Kyle, you are a good man with a awesome business! Thanks for chiming in and telling us what you know. |
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Posts: 156
| I think Kyle's post is excellent.
I'm not going to get into the details of my personal situation in this matter. And, really its not a big deal.
I also agree that this thread has taken many turns and has been a bit confusing, but at the end of the day has been a good & informative thread. I'm not going to get into the debate over resin vs. wood as I personally have had success on both types of baits and oddly enough have noticed days where fish seem to prefer one over the other. I also 100% believe that the variation and inconsistency in wood baits drives what I call "volatility in effectiveness" much more so than plastic/resin. I understand why a manufacturer would want consistency in product, but at the same time when you get a "magic" wood bait that seems to have that mojo it can be truly special. I envision a day where I'll have headlocks of both wood and resin. Some will effectively catch muskies, some will not.
I think the lesson learned here that I hope everyone takes away is that transparency is always good. The customer I believe has a right to know what they are buying. Accusations or claiming that Supernatural Big Baits is going to tank is pure emotion & immaturity, and the same goes for the forum/internet police.
I am thankful we have a place such as this forum to discuss and hash out these concepts/issues as a community. |
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Posts: 441
| Kyle is a "top notch" guy!
Thanks for always being honest and going the extra mile, for your customers! |
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Posts: 480
| headlocks 101
I began developing a large crankbaits for trolling in the summer of 2004 after winning a trip to Crow Lake. This lake has a reputation of being a "big bait" lake for trolling monster fish. Muskie Bay resort owner Paul Trinkner showed me his tackle and the stuff his guests like to use. I was hooked, I liked trolling, I liked big baits and I was really going to have fun making big baits for this technique.
The buyer at Thorne Bros. asked me to join him on a trip to Linda Rice's place on Lac Suel in the fall of 2010. He had heard some good reports about my baits from Linda Rice and wanted to give them a "try out". I agreed. I brought along a bag of all different colored 12" headlocks and told him to take whatever he wanted. Linda had already been fishing with headlocks for a couple years on Lac Suel and had a few memorable trips of remarkable fish. The 2010 fall trip was highly successful, lots of big fish in the boat everyday and with pictures to prove it. The baits passed the audition and they were on shelves before Christmas.
What most people don't know is the first 200 headlocks Thornes sold were ALL resin baits. By the summer of 2011, guides, clients and resort guests were catching monster fish on headlocks. Of the first 200 headlocks, 2 broke. 1 was intentional and 1 was unintentional. The decision was made to make them out of wood. Breakage would be eliminated and supply could continue without interuption. Wood headlocks rocked as well. They caught fish just as big and just as fast as the original resin ones. As the guides began using them, they devoured them. Tankers were caught on both resin and wood blanks. When more people loaded into boats more headlocks went out. But wood headlocks are more individual and rarely ran identical to another. That is fine for one angler per side of the boatbut not for 4-6 people in a boat who all wanted to troll. Refinements on presentations changed to solve running them into each other. Wood baits do not all run the exact same. Some blanks have tighter grain structure and direction. Densities can change from one end to the other. Some are too light and some are too heavy to sell. There's lots of waste. Demand for the baits increased, luckily I already have a full time job, a traveling wife and 2 young kids with lots of activities to attend-all of which I dearly love.
Fast forward to the present. Some guides and friends want the original resin baits for their more consistant action and productivity. Extensive testing was performed to make the best possible baitwith the highest success rate. I asked my 6 guides if I could weigh their top 3 headlocks so I could accomulate data from their success. I averaged out the 18 baits by weight (size is a constant) and made a stronger resin bait to that weight. A box of those resin baits to fulfill guide orders was racked for retail sale at the 2015 Chicago muskie show while I was trying to figure out my new credit card machine. Before the show opened, my booth was full of friends, show attendees and buyers with baits already in hand. I couldn't turn back time.
The bottom line is, from the very begining big muskies have eaten headlocks. They ate the original resin baits, they continue to eat every one of them I produce. I fully expect they will continue to do so in the future.
Kyle at Big Wood Musky lures sells a wider version of the headlock called a Big Wood supernatural (AKA- MattLock). He started selling these in 2009 I believe. A guide friend who saw an early version of the headlock wanted to suggest an improvement. His suggestion wa to make it wider and have it "start" at a slower speed for late fall trolling. He was right, I agreed to make a fatter one with the same profile but with a wider lip. Kyle now sells headlocks along with the Big Wood model.
If anyone would like to resin the mis-racked resin baits please contact me through my email address and I will replace it with a wood blank version. I'm sorry for any inconvience this caused. And thank you for all the support from this forum, and my friens and clients
SIncerely,
duff thury my email address is: [email protected] |
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Location: MN | Thanks for the clarification Kyle.
With different weight and presumably different buoyancy ya gotta think the baits will run different. It should be interesting to see which one gets more attention from the muskies. It's good to hear the resin's have already seen a lot of test time in the water with success. I might have to grab a resin at the show and do some testing to see it if outperforms the wood one this summer. |
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Posts: 1360
Location: Lake "y" cause lake"x" got over fished | YUP! Duffs reply is all I needed. Duff, you will have a new, and I am sure very happy customer come the MN muskie expo. We very much appreciate you taking the time out to explain this to all of us.
Thank you and see you at the expo. I can't wait |
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Posts: 427
Location: Planet Meltdown | Thank you for posting, Duff. Interesting facts about the history of your baits!
ShutUpNFish - I do believe, NOW we have it. |
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Location: Money, PA | Yep...And NO better que than the one above to close the thread |
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Posts: 216
| Yeah Except, now where the heck can I buy a couple? |
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Location: WI | Thanks for the clarification duff. I hope you can understand where the questions came from. Wish you all the best in the future |
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Location: MN | I think it was all part of Duff's master plan to get everyone buzzing about this. In the end he or Kyle will make it right for everyone that had a problem, and in the meantime look at the free press he's getting Great bait, great guy, summer can't come soon enough! |
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Posts: 25
| Wood lures leads to inconsistency, period!!!! Keep gambling on 'em guys, I'll take plastic any day. After buying 10+ Suicks over the years and only one of them ran like my buddies "secret" one I gave up on buying wood lures years ago. I catch the heck out of 'em on hard and soft plastic and wire baits. Just my 2 cents worth. |
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Posts: 2026
| Headlocks, Liplocks, and SuperNaturals, sure to start fights...
Edit: I didn't see Duff's response. Unfortunately, I misquoted his signature. On another note, Duff, did you adjust the weight of your samples to account for all of the tooth rash? |
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Location: Sycamore, IL | ARmuskyaddict - 2/6/2015 5:29 PM
Headlocks, Liplocks, and SuperNaturals, sure to start fights...
BINGO! I guess it's true...they really don't play well with others:) |
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Posts: 455
| Cool I like the Big Wood supernatural best anyway. |
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Location: deephaven mn | hotest bait on the market, duffs post a more accurate the kyles, understandable.
both honest and informative.
one of duffs guides gave me a tip as to selecting the one to buy of the rack,
and the resin has this feature incorperated |
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Posts: 156
| kap - 2/6/2015 6:47 PM
one of duffs guides gave me a tip as to selecting the one to buy of the rack,
and the resin has this feature incorated
Ohhhh, ahhhh. A trade secret.  |
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Posts: 62
| Come on .... what is that feature?
All of this reminds me what that certain tax software company is going through because they changed their product.
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Posts: 581
Location: deephaven mn | i read the all the posts and the tip was confirmed by the details of a buyer that bought three |
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Posts: 600
| Thanks Kyle and Duff for clarification! |
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Posts: 156
| kap - 2/6/2015 7:40 PM
i read the all the posts and the tip was confirmed by the details of a buyer that bought three
Let me know which bait, I'll sell it to you for $200. |
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | 'First off, for those that are confused'
There was allot of that in this one. |
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Posts: 455
| Saw some guy on this website make a hollow metal version. Forgot who but he welded in the lip and it looked pretty slick. Wonder if that bait ran for him. |
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Location: Sw Pennsylvania | here it is muskyrat
http://muskie.outdoorsfirst.com/board/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=99... |
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Posts: 455
| Thanks. Man he did a nice job on that. |
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Posts: 1638
Location: Minnesota | Lakes are still frozen here in Mn so I have not tested it yet |
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| For someone who just switched to a solid plastic lure, I can say that the price per lure is justified. Yes, wood lures are more difficult to produce, but the upfront costs of getting a manufacturer to machine, mold and run a lure in large quantities is ENORMOUS. These small lure manufacturers are forking over $5,000-$10,000 to take a very important next step in their businesses. In addition, if they want to keep per-piece prices reasonable, they need to commit to thousands of lures....not just hundreds. The cost per-piece is much more than the small piece of wood in their hand, so the bill for the lure blanks is thousands of dollars as well. All before a single lure is sold.
I have written in length about this before on my facebook page, but I think it's important to reemphasize that progress in the lure industry shows that there is growth potential. The market is telling lure manufacturers they don't mind plastic. I have had VERY few conversations about wood versus plastic as I visit with customers at sport shows. I understand nostalgia, but plastic has allowed me to produce a more consistent product AND expand my color offerings. This year I was able to take our popular 9" model and scale it perfectly to a 7" model that I think anglers will like even more--all because of plastic. I NEVER would have made this 7" model without plastic--had I attempted it, I would not be typing now due to loss of fingers. There are just so many advantages.
Any angst due to an influx of plastic lures is, in my mind, simply a longing for days gone by. It is that same industriousness that produced those hundreds of wood lures that is driving these small scale manufacturers to take a risk and move to plastic. In addition, I am proud to say, that our plastic lures are injection molded right in my hometown. I am helping to give friends and neighbors employment opportunities. Those friends and neighbors have in turn helped me expand my business by purchasing lures from me--lures they helped to build.
I now feel more committed to my lure business now than I ever did when we were cutting wood lures. The future looks brighter, the potential is greater and the satisfaction amongst my customers is the same if not better. Thanks for listening.
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