|
|
Posts: 284
Location: Eagan, MN | I'm going to tell you a story about a bass, then relate that experience to muskies. This was not any old bass, but the biggest I have ever hooked - and unfortunately lost. The lesson around how that bite was provoked may be transferable between the two species. Or not.
Back in the good 'ole 80's, I lived down south and pursued bass relentlessly, taking several trips each year to Lake Fork, TX during prime big bass periods during the spawn. The lake was peaking for giant fish during that period, bolstered by the 'new reservoir syndrome' as some would call it.
We were in the midst of a hot bite during the March spawn and were fishing differently than everyone else around us. While most guys were sight fishing for bass on beds, we were covering spawning coves with large, noisy buzz baits and cleaning up on big fish. Around mid-day, in the middle of a large and quite productive spawning cove full of brush and lay-down timber, my partner decided to take time-out for a lunch break. I decided to join him, but kept casting while he took time to pull out all the fixings.
It was then that I noticed a large boil in the water and knew I had found a big fish that had moved up to spawn. I kept casting repeatedly to the same spot, as my partner tended to the food, then sat back to watch the action as he finally got around to eat his sammy. Casting, casting, casting. The fish moved again, but made no attempt to eat, but let me know she was still there. More casts, all with the same bait, to the same little spot. Dozens and dozens of casts went over her, without incident. More time went by, casting over her with that Buzzbait like a machine. Then it happened. On the umpteenth cast, this fish ate with reckless abandon. I set hard and knew I had a good hook in her. She jumped completely out of the water and was massive. The biggest bass I had ever seen and dwarfed my PB caught earlier that day...a 10.0lb fish.
So, without anthropomorphing things too much here, that fish seemed to respond not out of reaction or feeding, but something entirely different. Some might suggest that fish bit out of aggravation or irritation.
So, what happened here? Did that fish reveal a different type of bite that could be exploited in the right situation? A bite induced by aggravation, for lack of better terms? Could a musky be provoked the same way? I've not tried this on a musky but have many situations each year where I could 'try their patience' to put it in human terms.
Thoughts? Related experiences?
Brian
Edited by BrianF. 12/16/2014 8:11 PM
| |
| | |
Posts: 156
| Short answer is yes, it works on muskies too. However, in my experience it is NOT a sight thing but rather happens when you just keep casting at your "best spots". Those spots almost always hold fish, and if they aren't showing...yeah, they can be provoked into coming to at least check your bait out. Sometimes...BIG fish too.
I don't do it often but it can work, especially if you are on a spot where you recently saw a giant.
One good story I have was with Steve Herbeck, former owner of AML on Eagle Lake. We were guided by Steve that day in 2007. As we pulled up to a spot, he said there were two big fish (one REALLY big, as in Steve was uncomfortable telling us how big) there recently and would love it if me or my Dad caught one. We did two passes on the spot...nothing. We packed up, and Steve started motoring away. He was mumbling to himself and looking around, never really accelerating out of the area fully. Then he accelerated hard, but abruptly backed off. I said, "Is something wrong?" And as we were puttering, he spun the wheel and said "*%*%^*^*%. I know that &%^#)^# is there. And then he accelerated back to the spot.
I remember thinking to myself, "After all these years, Herbie is finally losing it." About a half dozen casts into the 3rd pass...Herbie gets excited and yells "Oh, here comes one." I remember seeing that fish chase his bait, right on it thinking "OMG, its gonna eat." The fish didn't eat. Then after Herbie gathered himself, we finished the run, and he started laughing as we pulled out saying "I told ya she was there." And I said "Yeah you did. Big fish, what a tank too with those nice big red fins." And he looked at me skeptically and said softly while raising his eyebrows, "Yeah, and that aint even the big one." The big one, i now know the two guys who were with him when he saw it previously there...it is by far the biggest fish they have ever seen (and one of those guys has a 54" to his name).
So yeah, it works. On good spots or travel routes...keep firing away. | |
| | |
Posts: 1291
Location: Hayward, Wisconsin | Heard Dick Pearson tell a similar story about the late Jack Burns. Seems Jack had his mind made up that there was a fish off of a certain point and he drove Dick crazy by continuously casting to it. Recall Dick saying Jack made sixty-some casts at that point and finally caught a nice one.
Make up your own mind if that fish was there all that time or the continuous casting noise attracted it to the point and finally Jack's lure. | |
| | |
Posts: 1937
Location: Black Creek, WI | Yes, the DickP/Jack Burns story was what first came to my mind as well while reading BrianF's question.
My vote for why Jack finally scored in the DickP story would be that a fish finally moved onto the structure and reacted. For most of Jack's casts, no fish was there in my opinion.
Brian, what has your experience been when you repeatedly cast at some of those MN Sunbathers you visually encounter?
As to why that big bass finally attacked your buzz bait after refusing it so many times is a tough one. Maybe it finally got hungry 
How confident are you that the bass you finally hooked was the one you were targeting?
| |
| | |
Location: Grand Rapids, MI | For muskies I think at times irritating them, or changing cast angles, helps but I'm talking 5-10 casts to a small area and not spending 30-60 minutes trying to get a fish to react. So much can change in that time that I couldn't, with any confidence, say that fish was in the area unless it was sighted the whole time. If a fish just slowly wandering around could move a mile or more in that time I have a hard time believing a fish was just sitting there belly to the bottom. The Herbie/Jack stories above just make me think they weren't fishing where the fish really was and finally, as mentioned by JLong, the fish finally moved to where they were fishing. | |
| | |
Posts: 8782
| I've always believed that you could trigger a strike from a non-feeding fish. I think it's going to happen right away or not at all, though. I'd say in cases where we make a bunch of casts and a fish suddenly shows up, we've either thrown a cast right on top of it, or it was hanging around in the vicinity and was attracted to all the commotion.
My experience with fish that are just laying around has been that you are lucky if you can get them to turn and look at your casts going by. We had one on Eagle like that. We came roaring into a spot to stop for a sandwich and it was just sitting there. We threw everything we could think of at it. It did nothing. Figure 8's, jigging this and that, NOTHING. It backed up about a foot when I finally dropped a lure on it's nose hoping to chase it off so I could enjoy my lunch. Stupid thing was still sitting there when we left. | |
| | |
| i think Dick's story about Jack is in his MotS book? 20-some casts to the exact same spot from the same angle?
i don't think fish can "remember" anything, just not enough brain space for that to occur. so when the next cast lands, and the next, and the next, a muskie isn't "thinking" anything like "oh, there's that lure again."
rather, they react to stimulus in their environment based on largely hard-wired patterns, and some limited amount of formed associations. their degree of arousal can be impacted by a range of environmental triggers, including a lure being cast over their head repeatedly. any times i've tried this, the fish generally swims away to somewhere a bit quieter. but i've also seen fish very persistently stay in one precise spot even when nudged with a rod tip. i can imagine if the fish really wanted to be on a "spot on a spot" that it could get aroused enough (irritated) to strike at (chase away?) an intruding lure...but would it be worth our effort in comparison to finding a more active fish?
Edited by M Winther 12/17/2014 3:12 PM
| |
| | |
Posts: 8782
| That's what it really comes down to, Mike. How much time do you waste trying to catch a fish that might not be there or is there and won't budge? I think we'd be better served to seek greener pastures in cases like that. But then show me a musky angler who will actually leave a fish that you can see sitting there before going to stupid-lengths trying to get it to eat. Show me a musky angler that won't over-fish a spot because of a fish that they saw earlier or yesterday that could be miles away by now. We call that "chasing rainbows"... We all do it. We know it's probably not the best use of our time, but we have to do it because of the remote possibility that the same fish might be there again today. | |
| | |
Posts: 4269
Location: Ashland WI | esoxaddict - 12/17/2014 3:27 PM
Show me a musky angler that won't over-fish a spot because of a fish that they saw earlier or yesterday that could be miles away by now. We call that "chasing rainbows"... We all do it. We know it's probably not the best use of our time, but we have to do it because of the remote possibility that the same fish might be there again today.
Or in my case, a spot where I saw a fish a year ago...... | |
| | |
| We call that "chasing rainbows"... We all do it. We know it's probably not the best use of our time, but we have to do it because of the remote possibility that the same fish might be there again today.
in BrianF's bass-fishing situation, he was in an area that contained many large fish and just needed one of them to react. this seems a bit different and more productive than seeing a single fish and banging your head against it. BrianF noticed the cues that one of those fish was starting to react, and then kept picking at it until it struck.
that kind of density isn't as common with muskies on your average summer day, but there are definitely times of the year or under certain conditions when it does occur. add in clear water and it can be pretty interesting. when fishing an area that you know or can see is holding numbers of mostly inactive muskies, what cues will tell us that there's one fish worth focusing on more closely in an attempt to "force feed" it into reacting/biting?
| |
| | |
Posts: 8782
| M Winther - 12/17/2014 4:07 PM
[...] when fishing an area that you know or can see is holding numbers of mostly inactive muskies, what cues will tell us that there's one fish worth focusing on more closely in an attempt to "force feed" it into reacting/biting?
Other than the obvious answer of waiting for a change in wind, light, weather, or some solunar factor to come into play, I'd say you should target the fish that at the very least shows some signs of awareness. Does it turn, follow, rise up in the water column, at least take a sniff at your offerings? The ones that turn tail and swim off 20 feet to get away from your lure are a lost cause as far as I am concerned. It's fun to mess with them to see what they will do. But in all my years of messing with inactive fish to see what they will do, I can count on one hand the number that do anything except go away. | |
| | |
Location: MN | When I was a kid I did the same thing on spawning bass. I was not sure if they would bite out of aggravation or more because they were protecting their nest but eventually you could get them to go. I look back at that now and feel a little guilty for harassing the fish.
I have tried it with muskies with no luck. I've literally bounced big suckers off of their nose before and couldn't t get a reaction. It can be enough to drive a man nuts. | |
| | |
Posts: 1906
Location: Oconto Falls, WI | At what point to you say you expended enough time, and it just isn't going to happen? I have, on occasion, tried to will muskies into eating while sight fishing very early in the season. Not too often did it result in a hook-up, but a few times it did. One such occasion was with an X-Rap while targeting smallies. I spotted a 40" fish sitting over a shallow rock bar, and figured since it was a little guy I would just use my smallie X-Rap rather than changing to musky gear. Several casts resulted in nothing. However one cast the fish shot over and ate the bait all in one motion. What made it eat that time, good question. I chalked it up to that I placed it in a spot that the fish best saw it, and triggered it. While we may think every cast was identical to the previous that isn't necessarily so.
So the times I didn't get a fish to eat, why not? Maybe I just didn't spend enough time on the fish.
Two years ago, again while targeting smallies with an X-Rap, I had an encounter with a giant. I was having a ball getting big footballs to eat, but you had to let the bait sit motionless for a good minute. We were going on about an hour on that spot when the fish rose straight up from the bottom, looked at it, and nipped it. I lost her after a second.  I am pretty sure that fish was there the whole time, and didn't just cruise in. While we could say our time is best spent searching for active fish I cannot help but rethink my strategy for targeting big muskies. On one hand we can say we wasted an hour on one fish, but on the other if I would have boated that fish it would have made the season.
| |
| | |
Posts: 2015
| sometimes instinct takes over a fish... You can make the exact same cast at a fish 20 times without a response and then for "who knows why" they open their mouth....I see it sight fishing (with a fly) for pike a lot. You can literally bump their nose with the fly ...nothing... nothing..nothing...15th cast, they eat? | |
| | |
Posts: 1906
Location: Oconto Falls, WI | Justin do you find it more effective to put it on top of them, or slightly away from them? In the times I have been successful every case has been I CANNOT have the lure right in their face. I find by placing the bait several feet in front of them to be the most effective approach.
Brian in your bass days did you also find this to be the case where you needed to be close, but not right on top of them? | |
| | |
Posts: 284
Location: Eagan, MN | Yes, Travis, good observation. Your experience is consistent with my experience. Don't cast to their tail. Cast to the part that eats! Just remember, when casting at a fish, one of the best fishermen I know says, "you gotta give 'em room to eat." Leave a little space for them to do what they like to do...and that is to give a little chase.
Oh, and for the record, I still love to bass fish. So much so that the past couple of years, I didn't even put a musky rod in the boat until around mid-July. Still had a couple of my best musky seasons both years. As I age, I've come to an understanding with Ma Nature...take what the lake is giving you. Exploit the peak period for each species. Then move on to the next. I digress. Topic for another thread perhaps.
Brian
Edited by BrianF. 12/23/2014 9:19 AM
| |
| | |
Posts: 2015
| Travis, yes generally its best to throw the presentation around 2-3 feet away from their face (pike on the fly) - they stalk and attack...however, with extremely inactive pike, getting the fly so close to them to actually make them move an inch or 2 is sometimes the key, you invade their space..keep throwing it 6" from their face and eventually some will eat. When I'm doing this its post spawn, the big fish are often very inactive...but I do think this example can give you an idea how "unproductive" muskie fishing can be when the fish are "off" .........VERY low percentage but every once in awhile those lazy muskies eats for no apparent reason too. Even those ultra lazy fish on V occasionally get caught after 20 boats go around the same island.. fish that may be identifiable that you just saw an hr ago laying there.... after visiting the aquarium  - again very low percentage, especially with pressured muskies, but I believe instinct does kick in sometimes and these dumb fish... flare and eat...
Edited by IAJustin 12/22/2014 4:06 PM
| |
| | |
Posts: 1291
Location: Hayward, Wisconsin | How about figure 8 fish that follow for five minutes? Had one on Eagle follow us and the figure 8's (both my buddies and mine) as the wind drifted us 200 yards out into the lake. She finally hit and was caught! Crazy... | |
| | |
Posts: 1084
Location: Aurora | That falls under "Focus", Larry.
We ran out of gas once while following a topless female ski boat captain that had two other topless females laying on the bow.
Ahh, yes.. focus. | |
| | |
Posts: 1291
Location: Hayward, Wisconsin | Hmmm, Sidejack. Would you leave the "follower" to follow that ski boat? | |
| | |
Posts: 13688
Location: minocqua, wi. | Larry Ramsell - 12/22/2014 4:44 PM
How about figure 8 fish that follow for five minutes? Had one on Eagle follow us and the figure 8's (both my buddies and mine) as the wind drifted us 200 yards out into the lake. She finally hit and was caught! Crazy...
must be an eagle lake thing ... i have a spot i call 28 rock for a fish that ate on the 28th time around, thankfully it was a depth raider and not a double 10. | |
| | |
Posts: 2015
| 2 cents on the Original Post...- Lots of guys make lots of money when bass are in "shallow spawn mode" ...for the most part I don't think bass are ever really "feeding" at that period....they are chasing away bluegills and other predators that want to eat the eggs off their "nest" ....lots of " instinct..reaction..your in my space,strikes" that time of year, for bass. | |
| |
|
Bite Types