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Posts: 1030
Location: APPLETON, WI | I did a search and didn't see anything this specific.
I was one of the many who pounded the northern Wisconsin lakes last weekend for the National Musky Open Championship. I had a fun weekend despite not catching any muskies. My buddy got a skinny 34" fish. By Sunday morning, the cold front conditions had me depressed & discombobulated. I got my butt handed to me on a silver platter. The lakes chewed me up and spit me back out. You get the picture...
Several questions came to me on the long drive back to reality:
One of the days in particular started with average air temperatures for the year and water temps in the 69-71 degree range. Slight cloud cover in the morning which brought forth partly sunny skies in the afternoon. We casted bucktails and topwater in the shallows both above the weeds as well as at the inside and outside weed edges. We used twitch baits and jerk baits along the same areas in several key spots, as well. These are spots where either: A.) Fish have been caught in the past. B.) Fish have been seen in the past either on a follow, figure-8 boatside strike or topwater blow-up.
I want to be perfectly honest for just a moment. My deep water game is one I simply do not have confidence in but it's something I want to work on, hence, my post.
When going from one spot to another last weekend at a slow rate of speed, we noticed on the Lowrance in a few spots where we'd see baitfish schooling in 25 feet to 38 feet of water. They were suspended approx. 3 to 7 feet off the bottom (give or take) depending upon the area we were at and the ultimate depth of the water. This was a clear water Vilas County lake. Is this a situation where you would park the boat and work your bait within these baitfish? Do you count the bait down to those depths and then begin working this deep water strategy? The type of bait we're talking about is a whole other discussion, but I'd be referring to something like a Mag Dawg, Medussa, Phantom, Squirko, Smuttly Dog, Hardhead, possibly even a Doube 10, etc, etc. OR... is it a situation not even worth pursuing? Is it a complete waste of time to spend even MORE energy and time casting into an abyss where a musky may or may not even be holding? I have absolutely ZERO confidence in this kind of strategy and after fishing this tournament (this was my first) I am realizing how much more of a mental game this sport can be. I don't think I came unglued at any point in time, but I definitely found myself doubting everything I know and/or have done in the past which has been successful. Welcome to the world of musky fishing, right?
I had a fairly decent fish porpoise over & check out my Phantom Viper on a fairly deep edge late Saturday afternoon. Aside from that, I did not even SEE another fish much less catch one. Needless to say, it was a long 3-day weekend for me.
I'm interested in hearing more from the experts on how it is they handle and address their deep water strategy. In tournament conditions, when you've pounded the shorelines and key shallow water spots... where do you go? What do you do when you're up against the clock and feeling like you're out of answers? How do you beat the game and start scoring? I don't get out musky fishing as often as I'd like to so despite not catching anything, this was an awesome learning experience for me. Not only did I learn more about the muskies, but the tournament environment kept my interest the whole time even when I was feeling beat down & abused. LOL. Sorry for the lengthy post. Feel free to PM, as well if you'd rather not reply directly.
Tight lines, fellas... - Scott. |
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Posts: 306
| Cast out the other side of the boat! Better yet move a cast-length farther out from where you are fishing. I don't know that they go "deep", but the bigger ones and the hungry ones tend to hover over the deeper water off the structure, at least in my experience (and my reading experience), under less-than-ideal conditions. |
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Posts: 553
Location: 15 miles east of Lake Kinkaid | I could help you out with this but I'm sure there are some deep water specialists who can answer your question much better. I hope some of the spoonpluggers weigh in on this one, because most of them are true deep water specialists. |
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Posts: 119
| The best advice I can give here is to read Tom Gelbs book. He is really able to articulate the open water thing way better than I could even begin to. |
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Posts: 81
| Agree w/ Slumpbuster. Those lakes you are talking about are my home lakes. Most of the answers to your questions are in Tom's book. Definitely a metal game but once you have a little success, your confidence will go up. |
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Posts: 114
Location: Kingston, Ontario | MuskyMATT7 - 8/19/2014 3:52 PM
I could help you out with this but I'm sure there are some deep water specialists who can answer your question much better. I hope some of the spoonpluggers weigh in on this one, because most of them are true deep water specialists.
Hopefully jerryb will weigh in for you. He is one of the top fisherman out there and low and behold a spoonplugger.
His advice will be to read Buck Perry's books. I would agree. It might not help your confidence (until you catch some) but it will teach you the right way to fish deeper water as efficiently as possible. |
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Posts: 345
Location: Poynette WI. | I found some of Steve's articles to be very helpful and have helped with some great starting points and things to look for. Check out this article or Visit Steve's Heiting's Website and read through Tips/Articles. http://www.steveheiting.com/pages/articles-amp-tips.php and there is a great article on suspended fish. |
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Posts: 1023
| I asked a similar questiona While back and got some great advice that paid off.
I was fishing a lake with ciscos and doing well on a steep rocky break but things got real slow.
Based on advice here, I moved out another cast length to 40-50' water and threw some dawgs. I nailed a 47 almost immediately which really helped my confidence.
I don't fish that shield lake often but I do fish st Clair. I have a big spot I fish that has structure (weeds and rock) and sometimes the fish are on it but more often they are feeding or cruising in the deeper basin near it , (deep in St Clair is less than 20'). It is hard to wrap your head around open water casting at first and you don't always end to get deep too. This summer bulging double tens in 12-16' of open water has been the best for us. I think big muskies feed mostly in open and deeper water in Cisco based lakes and St Clair. I am guessing that some of the muskies that are shallower in shield like lakes are resting between feeds. But what do I know. I am not a pro or a muskie:) |
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Posts: 1030
Location: APPLETON, WI | Thanks a lot for the info, you guys.
I'll invest in Gelb's and Perry's book and also take a look at those articles by Heiting. Much appreciated!
I do know that the next time I'm out, I'll be focusing more on the deep water tactic rather than the same monotonous shallow water edges I keep pounding each and every time I have the privilege to fish.
I think the mental part of it comes from the fact that the "middle part of the lake" a.k.a. the basin is a big fricken area depending upon the lake you're fishing. To sit out there in 35' of water and throw big baits for hours on end takes a certain kind of mental stability... especially if you've never done it before. I don't know what, if anything, is key in knowing when (or more importantly - WHERE) to go to the basin.
Nonetheless, I appreciate the replies.
Scott. |
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Posts: 13688
Location: minocqua, wi. | find the basin … understand the structure that is adjacent to it … learn the subtle ridges and main lake humps and connect the dots. just as that seems logical, also … find the baitfish and consider them structure, understand their migration in the basin usually random in the summer and then pre-spawn in the fall (ciscoes).
search this message board, there are a bunch of threads and debates, some classic arguments … but, a ton of information. not saying don't get the book … get the book, but there is a book of information on this site if you go dig for it.
finally … how deep do the weeds grow?? … dark water, semi-clear, clear (all different answers but generally consistent) and is your boat in a position to cast to the edge of it, or are you crowding it? … and most important … where does the sand grass grow??
see the unseen ... |
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Posts: 1023
| Sounds to me like you are mentally beaten the second you move out to "deep" water. So first try changing your mental attitude. Remember that a fish may be 20 feet down in the water column. Compare that to the length of your boat and remember how quickly a fish can move from the front to the back of your boat, with a hook in it's mouth. Point being, if a fish is deep, it is still just one tail kick away from covering 20 feet in no time at all.
Next, start considering baitfish as structure. If you see bait on your graph 25 feet down. Start chucking lures at it. Do you think muskies are in the weeds where there is no bait, or out deep where there is a lot of bait? Yah, bait is great structure. Count down your bulldog, medussa...etc. Count it down 10-15 feet. Again, a hungry fish will flip it's tail once and come get it. I've had my best success over the deepest water pitching double 10's in the top 3 feet of the water column. Also by running larger Phantoms in the top 6 feet of the water. Always over baitfish.
And if you haven't already, invest in some Bondy baits. The ones with the colorado blade at the back. Find that bait, count your Bondy down on top of it and start jigging. But hang on tight, because those hits are kind of violent.
Good luck to you and I hope you nail a deep water fish shortly! |
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Posts: 688
Location: Northern IL | Some good advice has already been given but here's my take.
When getting started and if I asked a similar question to my friend and mentor Terry O'Malley back in the day the 1st thing he'd say is "Quit waisting your money on those tournaments and learn how to catch a fish first" and he probably say it nicely... 
One of the things I have preached around here for years is the fisherman must be flexible in his lure presentation both trolling or casting meaning he should think about 2' the same way he thinks about 10' or 25' or what ever it takes that day. No one knows where the fish (the school of fish, yes muskies) are on any given day, just that they all use structure to move about just as the bait uses structure, what's the guideline?
"The fish are either shallow, deep or some where in-between".
If the fishermen spends his entire day, week, or fishing career..... (know anyone like that) fishing no deeper than 8-10' what are his chances, slim IMO...
Treat ever depth as just another number on the screen. Learn the limitations of your baits, how shallow they will run and how deep they will run with a given amount of line. Most spoonpluggers (structure fishermen) do not have 300 lures in the boat they have "what they need" to hit every depth from as shallow as they can reach both trolling and casting to as deep as they need, both trolling and casting. It takes no more than the 7 different size Spoonplugs to reach from 2'down to 20-25' on mono and you can about double the depth when attaching them to wire line.
If you feel you have something that runs well at a certain depth instead of using a spoonplug (with its small hooks) then use it. The idea here in the beginning is to learn productive bottom features "First" and catch the fish later. However if the fishermen is so concerned with what lure he has on or what the moon is doing.... or the color of the lure, he is done, Priorities! I use the spoonplug because they are predictable, I take no sacred vow or bow down to anyone ha ha... All the hard work has already been done, these lures were designed to run at exact depths at a variety of speeds. If you use them great, if you want to spend a few hours learning the depths of other lures have at it.
After trolling a conservative 100,000 miles or so... even I have a couple of personal favorites that run well and are fairly durable like the 9" Ernie. I also like John Bales's 7" JB1 and JB2, both of them run excellent and are extremely durable. So that's 9 or 10 (two of them over lap) trolling lures that cover all the depths.
There are times of the season, weather and water conditions when the fishermen can have an educated guess through experience as in the depth they may be in. When I leave for Canada in October I will have all the sizes but will probably use no more than 3 or 4 lures both trolling and casting the entire 10 day of fishing.
Years ago Buck Perry was asked "what is the future of fishing?" Many would have probably said electronics but thats not what he said, "Wire line". Today we have braids that will allow us to reach much deeper with far less line with the same lures, however I'm still stuck in the past and use mono out to about 20' and the single strand wire from there and deeper.
Good luck!
Put this in your memory till 15 or go to Minn
Edited by jerryb 8/20/2014 5:10 PM
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Posts: 32781
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Trolling on the water up there is illegal until next year. |
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Posts: 4343
Location: Smith Creek | vegas492 - 8/20/2014 12:56 PM
Sounds to me like you are mentally beaten the second you move out to "deep" water. So first try changing your mental attitude. Remember that a fish may be 20 feet down in the water column. Compare that to the length of your boat and remember how quickly a fish can move from the front to the back of your boat, with a hook in it's mouth. Point being, if a fish is deep, it is still just one tail kick away from covering 20 feet in no time at all.
Next, start considering baitfish as structure. If you see bait on your graph 25 feet down. Start chucking lures at it. Do you think muskies are in the weeds where there is no bait, or out deep where there is a lot of bait? Yah, bait is great structure. Count down your bulldog, medussa...etc. Count it down 10-15 feet. Again, a hungry fish will flip it's tail once and come get it. I've had my best success over the deepest water pitching double 10's in the top 3 feet of the water column. Also by running larger Phantoms in the top 6 feet of the water. Always over baitfish.
And if you haven't already, invest in some Bondy baits. The ones with the colorado blade at the back. Find that bait, count your Bondy down on top of it and start jigging. But hang on tight, because those hits are kind of violent.
Good luck to you and I hope you nail a deep water fish shortly!
Sums up my thoughts too. I like the first 2 sentences. If you treat the deep like a last resort it will suck. You need to pick an outing to focus on deep as your primary spot, give it a good couple hours in prime time. Mark some deep contours and bottom changes (mud to gravel to sand, etc.) sandgrass, baitballs and fish a few feet over the top of them. |
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Posts: 1023
| Flambeauski gave you a great deep water "secret". Sandgrass. Man. If you can find it, pound it. Fish, all species, love sandgrass.
He also hit the countour changes. Got me thinking. One of my better open water spots on my home lake is just a 3 foot rise in depth out of about 30 feet of water. Seems insignificant on the graph, but man, I've caught a lot of fish around that little area. |
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Posts: 75
| Does anyone have a picture of sand grass? It seems like weeds have many different names and its hard to identify exactly what plant is being talked about.
This sand grass is not Chara, right?
Edited by bwalsh 8/21/2014 12:09 PM
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Posts: 1030
Location: APPLETON, WI | Many thanks again for all the replies, guys... Geoff, Andy, SLED and Jerry. Lots of awesome info, as always. I've made a few mental notes and agree, I'm defeated mentally before even looking at the magical numbers on the locator. I'm going to make a SOLID conscientious effort to pick an outing and ONLY fish deep water structure. I think this is essentially what I need to do in order to obtain the confidence I need. I'm insanely one-sided with my musky fishing strategy and obviously, my lack of fish this year is proof of that.
I'm neglecting to count down the key baits in these spots and in most cases, if I am over deeper water - I've been narrow-minded and kept things very elementary. Obviously, this has been punished me on a mental note and again, I'm lacking the fish that should be in the net. I've ordered the necessary literature and will be sifting through several archives of MuskieFirst discussions this weekend to key in on some best practices for my next outing. |
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Posts: 81
| It is chara and actually an algae. |
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Posts: 2687
Location: Hayward, WI | PSYS, I don't have a lot to add after what the others said, but I spend a fair amount of my time fishing deeper than most guys I see, and have a couple other comments that might help you.
1.) Don't expect to see a bunch of fish in a day. The ones you see will most likely have already hit your bait, and most likely make it to the net.
1a.) Hits generally seem more comitted and likely to hook up well. When these fish eat, they eat.
2.) Expect to catch the cleanest fish you've ever seen. These fish aren't being caught several times a year and to me, tend to be a little heavier (I'm guessing living in the cooler water slows their metabilism some)
3.) A lot of my time is spent with my boat in 25-30 feet of water, with a long cast juuuussstt able to land right at the weedline, or in say 6-8 feet of water on a rock bar. Sometimes I'm out further than that, and at times I've been out that far and cast towards the basin and caught fish. Have also caught some out in the middle relating to nothing more than baitfish, or a very small depth change, even over 70 feet of water.
3a.) Getting out just a cast length or two but still fishing around structure is a good way to get started. Fishing the true basin can be intimidating at first.
4.) Things like points still tend to hold fish, even if they aren't right on them. I save an icon when I catch a fish and for me, I often have clusters of icons around points and turns.
5.) I primarily use rubber, Hardheads (a lot), and Triple D's. If nothing is happening, try to rip the tail off your rubber bait to generate some crushing reaction strikes.
6.) This pattern really takes off for me when the water hits 75 degrees and I can see a thermocline on my graph, but many open water guys fish deep water almost exclusively, and rarely go shallow.
I've had luck with fish related to weeds and rock. Bottom transition areas are something I need to fish more, but watch your graph and you'll also see bait balls directly in relation to hard/soft bottom transition areas.
Finally, like the others said: HAVE CONFIDENCE! When we first started fishing deep, we found bait balls suspended off points and luckily caught a fish within about 10 casts on a Grandma. Caught another couple fishing deep that weekend. Instant confidence for us, but it can be tough going hours or a day without actually seeing a fish. Just remember that they are there, and don't usually show themselves till they nail 'ya.
Tucker
Edited by curleytail 8/21/2014 12:29 PM
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Posts: 609
Location: Seymour, WI | I don't want to tell you not to fish deep because I know that there are fish suspended in deep water, but the water temps this yr are much cooler than normal. Most of the fish that were caught in the tournament were caught on bucktails and surface baits. Each one of the tournament winners got a chance to talk about the tactics that they used to boat their fish and almost all of them came from weeds. The people that put fish in the boat did it because their lure presentation was just a little bit better the other anglers in the tourney. I thought the sunny conditions on Friday were tough, but Sat and Sun with the clouds and rain, the fish were on the move and had several chances at fish. Musky fishing is tough most of the time, just ask the 1000 + anglers who didn't get a fish last wk end. I think the key is finding a tactic that you have confidence in and then being ready for the one or two opportunities that you get each day. |
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Posts: 258
Location: Mayville, WI | jonj - 8/21/2014 12:25 PM
It is chara and actually an algae.
Well, most likely nitella, (aka stonewort, sandgrass, etc.), but it's still a macro-algae. It could be chara as well - I've heard both referenced as sandgrass.
Chara (aka muskgrass - the stuff with the skunky odor when you break it apart, sometimes also called sandgrass) and nitella are very similar, but nitella is typically found deeper and is able to survive low-light conditions better. Chara is also usually a bit stouter in appearance and sometimes "crispy", with nitella being frail & limp. The skunk smell is the best way to differentiate them as many lakes have both.
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Posts: 81
| That's interesting. It explains why it can be found at different depths on different lakes with very similar water clarity and bottom composition. Also, why sometimes the smell is much stronger. I never realized that they are two different species. Good information. |
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Posts: 3240
Location: Racine, Wi | One thing to add here to the deep water topic. Try fishing parallel verses casting perpendicular to the break lines, weed lines, etc. you cover a LOT more of the edge this way and it gives an angle that fish may not see as often (because most guys are throwing at, not along the edges.
Know the structure you are fishing, and similar to Jerry's trolling, know what depth your bait is at. Whether it's counting down rubber, throwing cranks, blades, top water, etc, the fish are typically relating to a certain depth. Figure that out and hammer it till it changes.
Fishing parallel for me is huge though. It's a brain game, but when you get bit that first time, it's addicting. |
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Posts: 2
| to answer Your question " when to go deep " --- every outing--- increase your catch rate by increasing your targets think wally fishing --some fish deep ,some mid & some shallow not all fish will be doing the same thing
at the same time -- example a point may drop into the baisin & meet @ 50 foot
you may find fish anywhere from up shallow at lands edge to 100 yards from the point up or down the shore or 100 yards out into the baisin or anywhere on the point -- same holds true for other structurs & weeds fish of all kinds will move shallower & deeper & often daily or even hourly due to many factors -- light , wind , forage , temps , barometer you name it
in addition you don't nessaryly need to run baits 50 foot deep to catch a sky from 50 foot of water a 10- - 15 foot divein bait often works while searching- however putting it rite in front of there face encourages less active fish
now fishing a main baisin is a game all in it self it Is a game of finding the oasis in the desert " find a reason for fish to be there" & your odds greatly improve
and allways remember fish don't eat structure----- but structure makes it easyer to catch food so forage is your oaisis not the lil rock pile ---- main baisin fishing requires lots of research to start building a spot list ------ however there is no reason not to troll the basin while moving from spot to spot when your having a nonproductive day or explore an interesting spot found on a topo or depth finderfor a few casts and by all means fish shallow when the shallow bite is hot & working well but when it aint working
keep in mind by targeting only shallow fish you have a lot less targets to work with so to expand your horizons fish what you know well just make an extra pass or 2 start deeper& work your way in to shallower do this around confidence spots with confidence baits that may run a lil deep 10 15 20 foot or fish both sides of the boat
oh & don't forget about the thermocline a popular depth for deeper water fish
is just a lil above or below prob because its popular with pelagic forage |
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Posts: 1168
| Alot of good stuff mentioned here already and read those other threads on the topic. Good stuff in those also.
To highlight something that's been said in this thread and others...it comes down to confidence. It can be easy to abandon fishing deeper water because you tell yourself "I know there are fish on that weed edge because I've caught them there." Those past experiences seem to be the biggest single factor for people not going deep or not spending as much time out there.
To build that confidence it truly is a mental game where you don't talk yourself into leaving deep water. There are fish out there but after a bunch of casts with no action it's easy to convince yourself to go to more familiar surroundings. It works somewhat the same way when they go up way shallow. The conventional wisdom that has been implanted in our brains by almost everything we read focuses on traditional structure with a handful of very well thought and well written pieces on suspended fish or skinny water fish. Most read those skinny or deep water articles and say "I'm going to try that" but they don't give it an honest shake. They either give up on it themselves or are talked out of it by a boat partner who is skeptical. You just have to be stubborn enough to stick it out and focus on it with the same type of stubbornness that can be applied with you only bring three baits with you. It leaves the temptation on shore and you have to fish with those things. Ultimately it can make you more well rounded and gives you the ability to be more adaptable to situations that previously were difficult. |
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Posts: 267
| Funny Chara or muskgrass is called "sand grass". It actually grows on marl type substrates, the stuff that becomes a white cloud in the water when the substrate is disturbed. I suppose it grows in marl/sand mixed substrates and thus gets the name sand grass. |
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Posts: 258
Location: Mayville, WI | It grows everywhere - between rock, sand, marl, muck (though not as well). Marl lakes have more b/c it grows better in hard water, which marl lakes typically have.
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Posts: 12
Location: SE WI | I felt the same way after the tourney this year. I was one of the "1000+ anglers who didn't catch a fish". We talked to a friend who lives in the area before the tourney and he told us of the cooler water temps, etc. He thought that the best approach would be to cast to shallower weed edges off one side and to throw off the deep side with rubber. We did. Then we tried shallow. Then we tried deep. Cast, Cast, Cast, repeat. We got spanked in this tourney too. I was lucky to have great fishing partners because our results were TERRIBLE. Luckily we still enjoyed our time and kept each others spirits up.
In regards to fishing the deep, here is what my limited experience and knowledge has to offer:
First off, let me say that I don't have my own boat. This sucks, because there are times when I am free to fish, that I cannot. On the other hand, it has allowed me to really fish with a lot of different musky guys. From guys that are incredibly "old school" and want to just pound the weeds in the shallows for days on end, to guys who will go out in the middle of (what I previously would have thought of as) "No Man's Land" and throw big rubber til their arms fall off. It's been awesome to learn from the different people who have indulged my musky urges and try to put this together into a fishing style that is inherently "mine". It has also allowed me to get guys who had not previously musky fished and test my mettle as the "veteran" and put them on fish.
-Sidenote- That is an awesome feeling when that works.
Anyways, last year during the tournament I was fishing with a decidedly "old school" guy. It got to be lunch time on the second day with no fish in the boat and I proposed the idea of "going deep". He obliged, but didn't cast very long before he sat down and started eating his lunch. While he was mowing his sub, I brought up the biggest musky I had ever seen. I had started to become doubtful in our decision to move deep too, but this ended up being the highlight of the tourney for me. Needless to say, at that point and since, he has bought some rubber and expanded his horizons quite a bit.
So, short story long, if you have a good experience fishing deep, it can really raise your spirits and exorcise thoughts that you may just be peeing in the wind.
All of this said though, the gps map for the lake that we fished looked like a three year old tried to color it in with a crayon. We threw everything and the kitchen sink at em and got nothin. We probably should have tried a different body of water, but we had seen a lot of fish there the year before and just figured it was "a matter of time". Next year, we try something different, as I have yet to put one in the boat on that lake. |
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Posts: 18
Location: Oshkosh, WI | Watched my good buddy in the front of the boat lose a huge fish in 38' of water this past weekend in vilas county. He didn't really know for sure how big it was till he saw a LAX replica later that night. He looked across the bar at Fibbers at a 50" replica and said "wow that fish today was just a little smaller than that one" he promptly finished his beer and ordered another. We have had good luck out in the deep stuff but sometimes just get too caught up in the weedbed "action" and forget about the deep water brutes only a couple casts away. That fish hit on a steep break from 30' into 65' and his bait was running around 10' down, although the fish waited till boatside to strike. The following day we drifted the area during a moon phase and had a fish whack his bait but never got hooks and we marked a few LARGE marks on the H-Bird 20' down over 40' of water. They are certainly out there!!! |
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