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Muskie Fishing -> General Discussion -> sound - Hunt for Big Fish show
 
Message Subject: sound - Hunt for Big Fish show
musky45
Posted 2/16/2010 12:34 PM (#424026)
Subject: sound - Hunt for Big Fish show




Posts: 47


Anyone catch the latest episode on Hunt for Big Fish where he used an underwater mic to hear the different lures? That was interesting to hear different lures.

I wonder if sound or vibration appeal more to the musky? Any thoughts?
muskie_man
Posted 2/16/2010 12:50 PM (#424029 - in reply to #424026)
Subject: Re: sound - Hunt for Big Fish show





Posts: 1211


Location: South Portsmouth, KY
That was pretty interesting.That lure that made the clicking and heartbeat sound was very interesting.
sworrall
Posted 2/16/2010 12:51 PM (#424030 - in reply to #424026)
Subject: Re: sound - Hunt for Big Fish show





Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin
I have no idea...:)
muskyjim
Posted 2/16/2010 3:01 PM (#424060 - in reply to #424026)
Subject: RE: sound - Hunt for Big Fish show




Posts: 119


Location: MN
I also thought it was interesting hearing Dahlberg talking about the packages being labeled with the sound in future. He sure approaches things from a different angle than most. Good show.
Esox-Hunter
Posted 2/16/2010 3:09 PM (#424062 - in reply to #424060)
Subject: RE: sound - Hunt for Big Fish show





Posts: 772


Location: South East Wisconsin
I seen the last 10 min of the show pretty interesting. I love topwater!
muskydeceiver
Posted 2/16/2010 5:11 PM (#424088 - in reply to #424026)
Subject: Re: sound - Hunt for Big Fish show





sworrall, any new video coming anytime soon?
sworrall
Posted 2/16/2010 8:07 PM (#424135 - in reply to #424026)
Subject: Re: sound - Hunt for Big Fish show





Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin
Soon, yes. The studio is done, tested, and works like a charm...
eric001
Posted 2/16/2010 8:08 PM (#424136 - in reply to #424026)
Subject: Re: sound - Hunt for Big Fish show





Posts: 222


Location: c.wis
last year at concordia- dahlberg talked about his finding with the hydrophone- very interesting stuff
nwick
Posted 2/16/2010 8:52 PM (#424161 - in reply to #424026)
Subject: Re: sound - Hunt for Big Fish show




Posts: 59


Location: WI
About Hunt For Big Fish - How can we get Direct TV to get Versus back on?
bturg
Posted 2/17/2010 1:29 PM (#424277 - in reply to #424026)
Subject: Re: sound - Hunt for Big Fish show




Posts: 441


What was really interesting was that some lures sounded exactly how you would expect... like the big Jake....with the headset on it sounded like someone banging a hammer on a car hood......and some like the DCG were actually quite silent. Single bladed baits were quite a bit noisier than duals.....spinner baits make the hearbeat sound. I think the difference between audible sound and pressure waves in the water from displacement are where some interesting findings could come about...they should be a different animal.

Topwater was REALLY loud
Figure 8's as I alluded to were a significant increase in noise...vs a straight retrieve....the line makes a ton of noise when you are ripping it thru the water.....I think this may be a significant clue as to why fish can go ballistic on the 8 after following in so meekly.

Interesting stuff
BT
esox50
Posted 2/17/2010 6:40 PM (#424333 - in reply to #424026)
Subject: Re: sound - Hunt for Big Fish show





Posts: 2025


Very cool stuff. Thanks for recapping, Bob. Must be destructive wave interference occurring with the double blades, and would explain the apparently louder single blades. Double 10 effectiveness a result of a more fish-like sound signature, same with Bulldawgs??? (Or self-fulfilling prophecy? Oops, hope I didn't just open a can of worms...)

Does anyone know if there's a site online we can view Larry's show at after it airs?
Guest
Posted 2/17/2010 8:10 PM (#424353 - in reply to #424026)
Subject: RE: sound - Hunt for Big Fish show


Dahlberg is always a guy to watch, a true innovator. We can thank him for spectra line as well as some interesting lure creations.
sworrall
Posted 2/17/2010 8:15 PM (#424358 - in reply to #424026)
Subject: Re: sound - Hunt for Big Fish show





Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin
I've found the double 10's make plenty of 'noise', just different than the singles. Spinnerbaits usually are louder than inlines. Soft plastics also make plenty of noise, just different than blades. Topwater can be very noisy, and not so much, depends on the lure. Doubles can be VERY noisy if they are built so they can be.

The first set of lures I recorded underwater was over 20 years back, so the concept's been around awhile. We acquired our studio hydrophone a couple years ago, the things are pretty cool.

Loudest are the hard plastic lures with sections that strike each other during the retrieve, tear your ears out.

I gotta get that stuff published. I only need a couple more days, best to get when I'm not on the ice, at shows, or...
The last two weeks of April should be good.

Here's the OFM studio, ready to record HQ Muskie lure video with stereo audio.






Zoom - | Zoom 100% | Zoom + | Expand / Contract | Open New window
Click to expand / contract the width of this image
(DSCN0648 [640x480].JPG)



Attachments
----------------
Attachments DSCN0648 [640x480].JPG (100KB - 32 downloads)
Guest
Posted 2/18/2010 7:51 AM (#424427 - in reply to #424026)
Subject: RE: sound - Hunt for Big Fish show


Hi again all,
Back in '74 I think it was, while I worked at Burger Bros sporting goods, I got my hands on a hydrophone. Muskies Inc had just begun I got together with about a dozen or so of the early members at a swimming pool at a motel.
I'd figured out a way to hook both my 300 watt Danelectro stereo guitar amp (with six ten inch speakers, mounted 3 each in five foot columns bearing full sized american flags on the front), and an ossiloscope.
We proceeded to test every musky lure in existence! Back then I think it took less than an hour to test literally every musky lure known to man!
The single thing that surprised all of us the most was how much noise the line can make when you rip it.
I'm still fascinated by sound because I don't totally understand it's relationship to either attracting or frightening fish.
I'm far from being a phyicist, but the way my pea brain sorts it out is this: All vibrations are sound, all sound is vibration. It's just a wave with different amplitude or frequency. Different creatures are equipped to detect different frequencies ranges, or may have more or less acuity regarding low amplitude.
Fish have evolved in an environment that is literally wired for sound. It only stands to reason the fish that survive over time are the one's that are best physically wired, in all aspects, to take advantage, or in other cases avoid, what the environment offers.
The topic is so broad, with so little known, I could write a book about various encounters that involve sound and different species in different environments, but I could only offer a few hypothoses, and perhaps no conclusions!
A book written quite some time ago by a freind of mine in Florida has some interesting insights on sound. Big Bass Magic, by doug hannon.
best,
L
esox50
Posted 2/18/2010 8:03 AM (#424430 - in reply to #424427)
Subject: Re: sound - Hunt for Big Fish show





Posts: 2025


Someone should capture a bunch of perch, suckers, shad, ciscoes, etc. and figure out their sound signatures underwater when naturally swimming or burst swimming. That would be neat to compare those signatures to the lures we throw. Nonetheless, if topwater and rapid line movement create loud noises yet muskies still strike, then, IMO, it points to the sheer aggressiveness of this species and that perhaps we are often triggering reactionary strikes vs. strikes triggered by the urge to feed.

Thanks for sharing, Larry!
Ldahlberg
Posted 2/18/2010 8:18 AM (#424433 - in reply to #424026)
Subject: RE: sound - Hunt for Big Fish show


Hey esox
I'm hoping someone, someday, can explain to me the difference between a "reaction" strike and an ordinary strike. Don't get me wrong, I understand the concept, but when I think about it at all, it seems almost ridiculous.
For sure, fish vary in their levels of aggressiveness, both from moment to moment and even, from fish to fish.
I find it odd that we would consider some bites reactions (by definition are not all strikes "reactions") and others more purposeful eating.....
best,
L

esox50
Posted 2/18/2010 8:49 AM (#424441 - in reply to #424433)
Subject: RE: sound - Hunt for Big Fish show





Posts: 2025


Ldahlberg - 2/18/2010 8:18 AM

Hey esox
I'm hoping someone, someday, can explain to me the difference between a "reaction" strike and an ordinary strike. Don't get me wrong, I understand the concept, but when I think about it at all, it seems almost ridiculous.
For sure, fish vary in their levels of aggressiveness, both from moment to moment and even, from fish to fish.
I find it odd that we would consider some bites reactions (by definition are not all strikes "reactions") and others more purposeful eating.....
best,
L



Absolutely all strikes are a type of reaction. I think where you can begin to differentiate is in the type of trigger, particularly with such aggressive critters as muskies. In other words, is the strike behavior triggered by the need to feed, territorial or displays of dominance, or something else? The more I think about it, the more I believe all strikes are "purposeful eating" that are displayed across a spectrum of behavioral triggers. What those behavioral triggers are I don't know.

I will maintain (particularly after radio tracking 35 fish this summer/fall) that the best fishermen have the most knowledge and understanding of fish behavior: locations at particular times of year, degrees of aggressiveness under varying conditions, and strike behaviors triggers. I certainly don't fall in that category. LOL
sworrall
Posted 2/18/2010 8:51 AM (#424442 - in reply to #424433)
Subject: RE: sound - Hunt for Big Fish show





Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin
Larry,
Give me a call at your convenience, I'd like to talk to you about this; I've some data that Jimmy Cairnes, Tony Portincaso, and I put together before I actually recorded lures underwater on a reel to reel (that's all there was at the time), and would like to share that and get your take on this before I finish up on the hydrophone project I'm working on.
715680.9265.

E50, I am recording all sorts of panfish this winter. I have to run the audio through Sound Forge to get it loud enough for the human ear, but it's pretty cool. Here's what a Pike strike sounds like without running it through any audio program...turn up your computer volume.

Thanks!

TC esox
Posted 2/18/2010 12:04 PM (#424486 - in reply to #424026)
Subject: RE: sound - Hunt for Big Fish show


Because I haven't seen very much underwater video of muskies, and have only had a small musky in a tank for a couple of years and don't feed it live fish, I can't say much about their strikes, verses a bass' strike. But I've seen tons of underwater video of bass, and have had various bass in tanks along with lots of other fish. Bass definitely have a non-feeding strike, especially when guarding a nest. It is not uncommon at all for bass to suck something in, and spit it back out. Even things they normally eat. Sometimes, they will simply suck it in, spit out, and ignore it. I've seen bass guarding a nest, suck in an egg eating threat, swim 5 feet away from the nest, and spit it out, before going back to the nest. Sometimes I think bass use their mouth as we might use hands, to beat up or bully something. Bass will also bully a fish it can't eat, into the corner of a tank, pounding it with it's nose, not letting it eat, until it dies. I don't know if muskies share much of this behavior or not, but some fish will definitely use their mouth for non-eating purposes, I think, because they have no other weapons. No paws, claws, fists or feet.
sworrall
Posted 2/18/2010 4:54 PM (#424530 - in reply to #424026)
Subject: Re: sound - Hunt for Big Fish show





Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin
TC, good observations on the Bass. Muskies don't seem to share much of the odd behavior Smallmouth display, have had both in tanks over the years. Probably has allot to do with the teeth difference...who knows.

The bass I have had in my tanks killed every other fish in there, even those larger by a margin. A 4" smallmouth kicked around a 12" Pike so badly, I had to take her out and put her in a tank by herself. They really seem to tee off on Perch. Sunfish might as well jump out of the tank and get it over with, yet Crappies somehow seem to get a pass.

Guest
Posted 2/18/2010 8:15 PM (#424581 - in reply to #424026)
Subject: RE: sound - Hunt for Big Fish show


I think I totally agree, but I look at it kind of the other way around!
Bass have successfully sampled insects of all sorts and sizes from the time they were hatched. Often when an object that displays certain visual cues gets within what I call their "flush the toilet zone", which is the cubic space in front of their nose that gets flushed when they do a big "suck"., I think latent memory reinforced after thousands of successful samples since birth, taps them on the shoulder and says, "it's a free meal, take a deep breath or you could starve. Zero calorie expenditure.
Granted bass in particular, can be nippy and highly terretorial of course when spawning and also when held in a tank with other fish. I'm sure your tank observations strongly suggested that some individual fish, and some fish species were more territorially inclined than others. The trigger is the dead drift. The teeth, mouth, nose, eyes, etc of the bass are well suited to snarfing protein rich nymphs.
The tooth structure etc of the musky evolved to grasp and seize alarmingly large objects, stay gripped while he turns them, and make sure once they get started in the right direction they continue.
They are made to eat other fish, to exist off a different layer of the food pyamid, and not surprisingly their most dependable trigger, "take it away, make it react" lure-wise is the exact opposite of a bug eater, were a controlled in and out dead drift presentation might be totally essential.
I put bug eaters and fish eaters into two overlapping circles, like a Venn diagram. sometimes bug eaters get big enough or are compelled to eat other fish. Sometimes bugs become so prevalent fish eaters switch over.
Anyhow, that might describe what happens some of the time!
L
curleytail
Posted 2/18/2010 11:15 PM (#424620 - in reply to #424581)
Subject: RE: sound - Hunt for Big Fish show




Posts: 1961


Location: Hayward, WI
Guest - 2/18/2010 8:15 PM

I think I totally agree, but I look at it kind of the other way around!
Bass have successfully sampled insects of all sorts and sizes from the time they were hatched. Often when an object that displays certain visual cues gets within what I call their "flush the toilet zone", which is the cubic space in front of their nose that gets flushed when they do a big "suck"., I think latent memory reinforced after thousands of successful samples since birth, taps them on the shoulder and says, "it's a free meal, take a deep breath or you could starve. Zero calorie expenditure.
Granted bass in particular, can be nippy and highly terretorial of course when spawning and also when held in a tank with other fish. I'm sure your tank observations strongly suggested that some individual fish, and some fish species were more territorially inclined than others. The trigger is the dead drift. The teeth, mouth, nose, eyes, etc of the bass are well suited to snarfing protein rich nymphs.
The tooth structure etc of the musky evolved to grasp and seize alarmingly large objects, stay gripped while he turns them, and make sure once they get started in the right direction they continue.
They are made to eat other fish, to exist off a different layer of the food pyamid, and not surprisingly their most dependable trigger, "take it away, make it react" lure-wise is the exact opposite of a bug eater, were a controlled in and out dead drift presentation might be totally essential.
I put bug eaters and fish eaters into two overlapping circles, like a Venn diagram. sometimes bug eaters get big enough or are compelled to eat other fish. Sometimes bugs become so prevalent fish eaters switch over.
Anyhow, that might describe what happens some of the time!
L


Now this is what this forum is about! Interesting ways to look at things. We've expanded out from the sound topic, but are onto some other out-of-the-box thinking topics. COOL.

curleytail
FYGR8
Posted 2/19/2010 5:46 AM (#424633 - in reply to #424026)
Subject: RE: sound - Hunt for Big Fish show





Since the lid has been removed from this jar I feel I must now offer sound with my video footage. It is apparent that sound may play a role, but is this to catch fish or fishermen? If one was to try and factor in all conditions (water clarity,day,night,temp,barometer,winds,water depth,colors,etc....now add the variables with the bait itself....plastic,wood,flashbou,thick blades,thin blades,bearings,no bearings,etc.) when experimenting with this, they would be hard pressed to nail down a formula that would guarantee you fish in the boat every trip.

If this will help manufacturers sell baits, then lets make every hum,buzz,rattle,knock,hiss,twang,thunk,zip,ting-tang-walla-walla-bing-bang available. The hydrophone will be ordered for open water filming and those that want the sound will get it. Personally, I feel you attach a good rock tune to a good looking bait and the strikes will come from those with the cash!
TC esox
Posted 2/19/2010 10:44 AM (#424659 - in reply to #424026)
Subject: RE: sound - Hunt for Big Fish show


Excellent observations. I guess my point, or not really a point, but thought, is that at times, bass do in fact use their mouth as a weapon, or for non-feeding purposes. Whether these purposes be territorial, protection(as a nest), or pure aggression(displaying dominance), I don't know. My inclination is that while bass may not be completely unique in this regard, they probably are the most observable in this behavior. I wonder if our esox friends ever use their mouths for non eating purposes. It seems to me that they may not, but who knows. I know that often the prime ambush spot in an area will be occupied by the biggest baddest esox in the area, but do they ever have to fight for these spots, or do others simply defer to the dominant fish? Since they don't really nest like bass, I don't think they do much to protect a brood, at least as far as I know, so they wouldn't have a protection instinct to influence behavior. And they don't seem to have the same need to show dominance that bass do. To anthropamorphize, perhaps esox are more secure in their place, whereas bass seem to need to constantly show everyone how tough they are!
sworrall
Posted 2/19/2010 11:35 AM (#424666 - in reply to #424026)
Subject: Re: sound - Hunt for Big Fish show





Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin
'If this will help manufacturers sell baits, then lets make every hum,buzz,rattle,knock,hiss,twang,thunk,zip,ting-tang-walla-walla-bing-bang available. The hydrophone will be ordered for open water filming and those that want the sound will get it. Personally, I feel you attach a good rock tune to a good looking bait and the strikes will come from those with the cash!'

No. the idea is to listen to and watch the lures work, and then be able to perhaps hazard a guess why one style lure works sometimes, and not others-etc. Sound and vibration has a HUGE amount to do with how fish find the bait, and I intend to allow anyone who wishes to watch and listen draw their own conclusions.

The 'lid' has been off this jar here for 10 years, look back at the video we've shot; a couple years ago I opened the Madison MI muskie school with a few recordings, and I've had the audio only recorded since 1979 for over 100 lures. it's been a pursuit of mine for no particular reason more than curiosity. Feel free to give me a call and I can help you with the studio I built (the components can be purchased online easily), it'll make your projects much easier.
FYGR8
Posted 2/19/2010 11:49 AM (#424670 - in reply to #424026)
Subject: RE: sound - Hunt for Big Fish show





I am not bashing the idea and you said it yourself everyone will be able to make their own observations. I am just saying that no two situations will be the same unless you are running two baits side by side over and over again to form an even somewhat hypothesis. I just wonder if less fish will be caught with all of the overthinking and not enough just pounding the water. Should be fun and interesting nonetheless!

Edited by FYGR8 2/19/2010 11:51 AM
sworrall
Posted 2/19/2010 12:06 PM (#424674 - in reply to #424026)
Subject: Re: sound - Hunt for Big Fish show





Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin
I don't see looking into the footprint of any lure 'overthinking' because audio is added. As was said, I think most folks will draw their own conclusions, and apply them accordingly! By the way, we are only recording a cross section of the lures out there...not every bait built, and all that in a pool and not on the water, so the overall end product will be apples/oranges to what you offer. I find the clips you produce very interesting, and appreciate your sharing those with the folks here, and look forward to more.
dtaijo174
Posted 2/19/2010 1:03 PM (#424685 - in reply to #424674)
Subject: Re: sound - Hunt for Big Fish show





Posts: 1019


Location: New Hope MN
sworrall - 2/19/2010 12:06 PM

I don't see looking into the footprint of any lure 'overthinking' because audio is added. As was said, I think most folks will draw their own conclusions, and apply them accordingly! By the way, we are only recording a cross section of the lures out there...not every bait built, and all that in a pool and not on the water, so the overall end product will be apples/oranges to what you offer. I find the clips you produce very interesting, and appreciate your sharing those with the folks here, and look forward to more.


Steve,

Is there any place on M1st that has the lure w/ sound? Perhaps video? I know I've seen a few. It would be cool to have a thread started with a video of each bait w/ sound. After all, it is winter.

Dave
FYGR8
Posted 2/19/2010 8:58 PM (#424724 - in reply to #424674)
Subject: Re: sound - Hunt for Big Fish show





sworrall - 2/19/2010 12:06 PM

I don't see looking into the footprint of any lure 'overthinking' because audio is added. As was said, I think most folks will draw their own conclusions, and apply them accordingly! By the way, we are only recording a cross section of the lures out there...not every bait built, and all that in a pool and not on the water, so the overall end product will be apples/oranges to what you offer. I find the clips you produce very interesting, and appreciate your sharing those with the folks here, and look forward to more.


I appreciate the fact that you allow me to share my videos for all to see. I have spent the winter designing and building camera brackets that will allow me to give shots done only by divers. My ultimate goal is to get those viewing my clips to ask "How did he do that"? This could be a very interesting summer of filming!
The Toad
Posted 2/20/2010 10:52 PM (#424885 - in reply to #424026)
Subject: Re: sound - Hunt for Big Fish show





Posts: 137


I thought that the sound of the double bladed bucktail made was pretty interesting in that it sounded much quieter than the single bladed bucktails. Makes you wonder if there is some correlation between it's success and it's subtle sound footprint rather than the increased turbulence it puts out. Or perhaps a combination of the two? Interesting. Bulldawgs don't put out a lot of sound, but move a lot of water too. Could this be why both baits are two of the most successful lures in our arsenals? Guess we won't ever know for sure unless we capture a muskie and actually get him to talk...not sure if waterboarding would work though....

Speaking of baits that don't make the sound we think it should make, I filmed a swimbait underwater and was surprised how much noise it made. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PyemRT0NMNw
Would never have known without the underwater sound that it clicked and clacked so much, because from above the water it doesn't look like would make much noise at all. The jointed swimbaits are all the rage, because they look so real, but maybe they are less like a real fish than we think. Anyway, another great show, and it's gotten even better the past two seasons with the lure building shows. Great stuff.

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