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Muskie Fishing -> Muskie Boats and Motors -> Zero compression in one cylinder
 
Message Subject: Zero compression in one cylinder
Cowboyhannah
Posted 8/10/2017 9:21 PM (#873889)
Subject: Zero compression in one cylinder





Posts: 1381


Location: Kronenwetter, WI
So...on Monday of my annual trip to MN I lost all compression in one of six cylinders of my 2005 Evinrude 200hp HO Ficht. The motor still runs, but something bad. Happened in there....as I heard something knocking around, had a major power loss while running at 36 mph and now ther is ZERO compression in one cylinder. When tuning engine over and put thumb over plug hole there is nothing there.

I called three Evie dealers/service centers and none would touch it. When pressed, they say those engines are a mess and cannot get an oil pump that would be part of the standard power head replacement as they aren't made anymore.

I did find one place two hours away that would do it without replacing the oil pump but at an over the phone price of 6-7$K!!

At that price I'm better off putting the money toward a different motor.

My question is....is it worth the 150-200 $$ to have a shop tear it down to evaluate what happened? Is it even possible that it could be fixed without a powerhead replacement? Does zero compression pretty much mean its shot?

Also...does it make sense to look in the used market for a 200, or is that likely another bunch of problems? I did find this, but then I'm Leary...

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Evinrude-E-tec-150-175-200-250-300-hp-BUILT...






Edited by Cowboyhannah 8/10/2017 9:26 PM
IAJustin
Posted 8/11/2017 6:27 AM (#873900 - in reply to #873889)
Subject: Re: Zero compression in one cylinder





Posts: 1611


I feel your pain - I ran a 2003 FICHT 200hp for 8 years, loved it WHEN it ran - ha! I know I missed out on some good bites in 2006 and 2007 cause my boat was in the shop for months.. I had a problem with anyone wanting to touch it 10 years ago and those that would, were often scratching their head trying to diagnose and properly fix.. so I'm sure its only got worse... I'll let others more qualified than I talk about your issue as mine were usually ECU/EMM related (doesn't sound like that's what you are dealing with) .... but the fact that few technicians want to and know how to work on these anymore...led me to go Mercury, at least parts and techs are everywhere - good luck ..engine problems - stink!
mnmusky
Posted 8/11/2017 7:06 AM (#873901 - in reply to #873900)
Subject: Re: Zero compression in one cylinder





broken piston rod perhaps
muskyhunter47
Posted 8/11/2017 7:25 AM (#873903 - in reply to #873901)
Subject: Re: Zero compression in one cylinder




Posts: 1610


Location: Minnesota
That sucks how can they sell a motor but not want to fix it. Hopefully it will be a easy fix , if you end up repowering i would look at mercury or Yamaha get them fixed every where
BBT
Posted 8/11/2017 9:41 AM (#873912 - in reply to #873889)
Subject: Re: Zero compression in one cylinder




Posts: 113


6-7K sounds about right, Probably better off going with re-powering. I would waste your money on diagnosing why, at the end of the day it's still blown up. Doubtful it's re-buildable, nor would I want to with one of those Fichts. They are good motors(while they run) once you start having troubles, sell it or throw it away!
cincinnati
Posted 8/11/2017 10:05 AM (#873918 - in reply to #873901)
Subject: Re: Zero compression in one cylinder




Posts: 1114


Location: West Chester, OH
mnmusky - 8/11/2017 8:06 AM
broken piston rod perhaps


Or piston failure, as a result of timing or mixture malfunction. Then all those pieces of metal whirl around & create other mayhem.
Fishysam
Posted 8/11/2017 10:33 AM (#873921 - in reply to #873889)
Subject: Re: Zero compression in one cylinder




Posts: 817


I melted a hole in a 200 efi merc piston. Only lost 5 mph and holeshot. Probably could have spent 4-5k to fix, but fixed blocks are a bigger crap shoot than new motors witch are still only so good. I had no clunk noises. I would suspect your failure was worse and I would suggest a new motor top to bottom.
Musky Brian
Posted 8/11/2017 10:56 AM (#873927 - in reply to #873921)
Subject: Re: Zero compression in one cylinder





Posts: 1552


Location: Lake Country, Wisconsin
The old big block Fichts are a ticking time bomb. Best to move on for sure
R code
Posted 8/11/2017 12:51 PM (#873944 - in reply to #873889)
Subject: Re: Zero compression in one cylinder




Posts: 255


Location: SE WISCONSIN
I would look for a nice used motor. Here is a 95 vindicator for 3500 http://www.bbcboards.net/showthread.php?t=835219

Edited by R code 8/11/2017 12:53 PM
MACK
Posted 8/11/2017 12:55 PM (#873948 - in reply to #873889)
Subject: Re: Zero compression in one cylinder




Posts: 1065


Sounds to me like you holed a piston. Meaning, blew a hole through the top of the piston. Which is why you have zero compression. Could have been detonation due to low octane, could have been oil starvation, could have been timing. If those techs you're talking too are bringing up "oil pump" as part of the conversation...that sounds to me like it could have been oil starvation. Maybe the piston furthest away from the pump? I don't know these engines. But if you holed a piston, and continued to run the engine, you've run metal fragments throughout the entire engine and most likely scored the cylinder. So they'd want a new power head vs boring that one cylinder to get past the scoring marks.

What did the end the spark plug that came out of that cylinder? Dark with a lot of white spots on it, ie, metal fragmentation?

Edited by MACK 8/11/2017 3:18 PM
Dave F
Posted 8/11/2017 1:25 PM (#873952 - in reply to #873948)
Subject: Re: Zero compression in one cylinder




Posts: 64


Have you tried to contact the manufacturer? The result of that would, for me, go a long way in deciding what motor I chose next. If they offered no help and no trade in value on a different motor it would seal the deal on choosing another brand.
Dave
bobbie
Posted 8/11/2017 3:43 PM (#873964 - in reply to #873952)
Subject: Re: Zero compression in one cylinder




Posts: 603


Dave F - 8/11/2017 1:25 PM

Have you tried to contact the manufacturer? The result of that would, for me, go a long way in deciding what motor I chose next. If they offered no help and no trade in value on a different motor it would seal the deal on choosing another brand.
Dave

The motor is 12 years old, just out of Warranty
Bad deal, I would buy a new motor
RyanJoz
Posted 8/11/2017 6:50 PM (#873970 - in reply to #873964)
Subject: Re: Zero compression in one cylinder





Posts: 1256


Location: Mt. Zion, IL
Rent an engine bore-o-scope and inspect it yourself. You may discover that it is something you could repair. I have access to boring machines at work, but that may not be your case. Factory service manuals and some ingenuity have always gotten me far.
Cowboyhannah
Posted 8/11/2017 10:19 PM (#873987 - in reply to #873948)
Subject: Re: Zero compression in one cylinder





Posts: 1381


Location: Kronenwetter, WI
Yeah, it had white particles on it, looked markedly different from all other 5 plugs in that way.....I will call Evinrude and see if they offer me any help, if not maybe look for a used four stroke---yammie or Susie....
Cowboyhannah
Posted 8/11/2017 10:24 PM (#873988 - in reply to #873889)
Subject: Re: Zero compression in one cylinder





Posts: 1381


Location: Kronenwetter, WI
Unfortunately, tearing an engine down and reassembling is beyond what I can do....I need some guy named "Snuffy"" with a shop who does this stuff on the side maybe....re bore and upsize rings if it's just that one cylinder.....or maybe like was suggested even a low repair cost like two grand is throwing money away if it's just destined to fail for a third time now.
Troyz.
Posted 8/11/2017 11:46 PM (#873991 - in reply to #873988)
Subject: Re: Zero compression in one cylinder




Posts: 722


Location: Watertown, MN
It is easy to pull the head and take a look, and you will see a hole in you piston. Been there done that, First one ran forever and loved it tons of power, died in canada last hour of trip!! good timing. bought used motor as I thought easy to repoewer. died 2 years later same fate. Problem with rebuilt is the power head 6-8k then still dont know what caused failures, was oil pump, and etc... so you with other parts you will almost 9k on 12 year old motor. I did pull head and nice hole, my guess just like all the big 225 is they are pushing performance over durability. So repowered with Suzuki, and will not worry again and no more oil!!!.

Good luck

Troyz
Troyz.
Posted 8/11/2017 11:50 PM (#873993 - in reply to #873988)
Subject: Re: Zero compression in one cylinder




Posts: 722


Location: Watertown, MN
It is easy to pull the head and take a look, and you will see a hole in you piston. Been there done that, First one ran forever and loved it tons of power, died in canada last hour of trip!! good timing. bought used motor as I thought easy to repoewer. died 2 years later same fate. Problem with rebuilt is the power head 6-8k then still dont know what caused failures, was oil pump, and etc... so you with other parts you will almost 9k on 12 year old motor. I did pull head and nice hole, my guess just like all the big 225 is they are pushing performance over durability. So repowered with Suzuki, and will not worry again and no more oil!!!.

Good luck

Troyz
North of 8
Posted 8/12/2017 8:56 AM (#874011 - in reply to #873889)
Subject: Re: Zero compression in one cylinder




Posts: 2102


I understand that a 12 yr old motor does not have a warranty but for authorized dealers to not be willing to even work on it, that is a problem. I would contact the manufacturer, both by phone and in writing, and name the dealers. No company wants this kind of publicity. It may be true that it is a problem that cannot be fixed or fixed without spending more than is reasonable, but they still should be willing to check it out. I know Mercury surveys customers of their dealers to see what their experience has been, wonder if Evinrude does that?
BBT
Posted 8/12/2017 10:03 AM (#874014 - in reply to #874011)
Subject: Re: Zero compression in one cylinder




Posts: 113


The company has been bought and sold several times, your old motor was part of the old company. They would have no reason to have to work on them.
North of 8
Posted 8/12/2017 10:44 AM (#874021 - in reply to #874014)
Subject: Re: Zero compression in one cylinder




Posts: 2102


BBT - 8/12/2017 10:03 AM

The company has been bought and sold several times, your old motor was part of the old company. They would have no reason to have to work on them.


When Bombardier bought Evinrude, they bought a brand. If they wanted to step away from the brand, they could have changed the name. They did not and that means any problem with an Evinrude, regardless of when in was manufactured and who owned the brand at that time reflects poorly on their brand. And, they did own Evinrude when the motor in question was produced. They didn't design it but they owned the company since 2001.

Edited by North of 8 8/12/2017 10:56 AM
sworrall
Posted 8/12/2017 1:39 PM (#874033 - in reply to #873889)
Subject: Re: Zero compression in one cylinder





Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin
Does anyone really think a failure in a 12 year old motor will be addressed by the company? How many owners, hours, and what was the maintenance schedule from day one?

The engine is wayyyyyy out of warranty and is no longer in production, so I doubt any outboard company would cover it in any way. I know if it was a truck and you called the company you'd get nowhere, pretty much. The dealers won't work on them because they can't get quite a few of the parts and may not even have the tools to service the motor any more, and there's no law out there requiring Evinrude to produce parts for an engine out of production for that long. If the model was still in production and was recently it would be an issue.
North of 8
Posted 8/12/2017 7:28 PM (#874048 - in reply to #873889)
Subject: Re: Zero compression in one cylinder




Posts: 2102


Steve, not expecting them to pay for it but I do think that a dealer should be willing to at least work on it, tell you what is wrong and what it would cost to fix or if it even can be fixed. I don't think the OP expected any help with the cost but to have dealers tell you they won't work on it, to me that is not the mark of a good company.
mnmusky
Posted 8/12/2017 8:03 PM (#874051 - in reply to #873889)
Subject: Re: Zero compression in one cylinder





http://www.gearbest.com/other-cell-phone-accessories/pp_366250.html...
wKCAjwzrrMBRByEiwArXcw2xFI_TAiXsuhUrhjHZPCDnWxPDrZPSasKwdoK_rV_8je8jlmgfSASRoCfDsQAvD_BwE


buy one of these. pull the spark plug and put in the hole. . Ive used these for other functions and they work nicely

Edited by mnmusky 8/12/2017 8:07 PM
crix
Posted 8/14/2017 9:41 PM (#874343 - in reply to #873889)
Subject: Re: Zero compression in one cylinder




Posts: 165


Location: tHe LaKe Of PrIoR, mN
Coming from someone who put too much money into a 04 225 cut your losses
Cowboyhannah
Posted 8/16/2017 10:01 PM (#874603 - in reply to #873889)
Subject: Re: Zero compression in one cylinder





Posts: 1381


Location: Kronenwetter, WI
Thanks for all the replies. I'm giong to move on from this motor and see what I can get by selling as is for parts. Looking for a newer pre owned 200 and getting some bids on a new Df 200 a Suzi in line 4 cyl. These are aggressively priced with an 800 rebate I can get one rigged with controls for just under 14$k, which is alot less than any other brand I've had quoted. I know a couple friend with suzis that have been very happy with them over time, so that's where I'm leaning,

Edited by Cowboyhannah 8/16/2017 10:02 PM
ColdLabatts
Posted 8/18/2017 3:40 PM (#874830 - in reply to #874603)
Subject: Re: Zero compression in one cylinder




Posts: 13


I work in product support for a major manufacturing company and I can assure you that companies care about this sort of situation....companies that try and take care of their customers at least. Yes its 12 years old but they may offer you a deal on a trade in or something like that. We call them goodwill claims and do it all the time.
Troyz.
Posted 8/19/2017 12:07 AM (#874866 - in reply to #873889)
Subject: Re: Zero compression in one cylinder




Posts: 722


Location: Watertown, MN
You should get 6 year warranty, and should get about 1500 for old motor if you look around, they buy them for parts
sworrall
Posted 8/19/2017 6:15 AM (#874868 - in reply to #874830)
Subject: Re: Zero compression in one cylinder





Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin
ColdLabatts - 8/18/2017 3:40 PM

I work in product support for a major manufacturing company and I can assure you that companies care about this sort of situation....companies that try and take care of their customers at least. Yes its 12 years old but they may offer you a deal on a trade in or something like that. We call them goodwill claims and do it all the time.



Doesn't matter which outboard motor company you are talking about. I've been in the marine sale/service/warranty business for 45 years and once an outboard is out of warranty AND several years out of production I know of precious few good will warranty settlements offered even for the original owner, and even less a chance if not the original owner and unless the engine had a registered history of repeated problems, and even then, 12 years is a really long time to expect going to the company will result in a good deal on a new engine. Hours have a ton to do with it, marine engines from that era and technology 'can' go over a thousand hours, but there is absolutely no warranty implied they will last past the warranty period. The reason you see longer warranties now is what could be considered extremely large improvements in technology since the engine companies were forced to start building 'green tech' engines.

Similar to automotive, outboards, like pick up truck engines and transmissions, wear out, and once age and wear, an uncertain or completely unknown service record, etc. become a reality that will lead to a 'no' answer almost every time. I own a Toyota Tundra with 200K on it and an excellent service record, but would not expect them to give me a hot deal on a new one if I lost a cylinder today.

Of course, everyone would applaud the company for a 'good will' deal on an engine failure like that, but so much relies on the engine history it's a big expense to even find out what the failure was and why it happened. Worth a try of course because one never knows, but to expect it would be a bit past reality in this biz.

That said, whatever your company sells, I'd buy it over a company that offers none, if I knew it was a standard practice.
Fishysam
Posted 8/19/2017 11:02 PM (#874931 - in reply to #873889)
Subject: Re: Zero compression in one cylinder




Posts: 817


If longevity is your goal suzi'a are great. But if you can spare the extra pounds for a v6 suzi 200 (if they make one) I would swing it. My reasoning is simple to me- a 200hp 4 cylander at its max power tune vs a v6 good for 300hp detuned to 200 would last longer. May take more gas to run but... just my thought
Serpant
Posted 8/22/2017 9:11 AM (#875166 - in reply to #873889)
Subject: Re: Zero compression in one cylinder





Posts: 109


Location: Albertville, Minnesota
I just had the similar problem with my Johnson 4-stroke....but two cylinders out.....also a knock when at trolling speed. With a load (in water), couldn't get over 2200 RPMs....8 mph. So after some quick checks (plugs, fuel filter, etc.), brought it in....the knock freaked me out. Should mention without a load, she hummed awesome....no knock. It was a computer chip in the motor....isn't telling the cylinders to fire. Mechanically, I'm fine....thank god. But the chip.....$1500 new/found one used for $850.
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