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| Does any one know of a source to buy headlock type lips?Thanks! |
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| try genesisperformance |
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| Why not get creative and design your own lip? |
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Location: Glen Ellyn Il | I made a Headlock for myself and I made the lip from 1/4 inch Polycarbonate works just fine
Gino |
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| Working on getting a Poly Carbonate Lip made. Possibly 3/16". Never had any problems with a lip this thick. Anybody interested.
Dick |
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Location: Hayward, WI | mlure - 11/25/2016 3:48 PM
Working on getting a Poly Carbonate Lip made. Possibly 3/16". Never had any problems with a lip this thick. Anybody interested.
Dick
I gotta think you would have some interest with that! I'm not a high volume lure maker, but I think I would have to get a couple.
Tucker |
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| We are at present getting ready to laser cut some 3/16" poly lips. Hope it works out. Should know shortly.
Dick |
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Location: Morgantown, WV | I made a few 6" headlock style crankbaits. You can cut 1/16" aluminum really easily on a band saw. WD40 helps keep it lubricated. The key is to go slow and let the saw do the work. |
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| I cut some out of 1/8" aluminum plate. Coping saw and a file to smooth the edges, worked fine. |
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| I will say this as nicely as possible.
Pretty pathetic that guys have to rip off someone elses work and design to make money!
I'm not talking about lips/body styles that are generally available to the public in "do it yourself" tutorials or internet & lip cutouts that have been around for 50-100 years.
No respect.
No creativity.
Just copy, copy, copy.
Half of this industry has turned into a joke.
Be creative, innovate, design, fail, fail again, then succeed, you have a brain, use it.
Show some respect to yourself and to others.
Edited by Muskymilleman 12/6/2016 2:42 PM
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Location: Ashland WI | Muskymilleman - 12/6/2016 2:41 PM
I will say this as nicely as possible.
Pretty pathetic that guys have to rip off someone elses work and design to make money!
I'm not talking about lips/body styles that are generally available to the public in "do it yourself" tutorials or internet & lip cutouts that have been around for 50-100 years.
No respect.
No creativity.
Just copy, copy, copy.
Half of this industry has turned into a joke.
Be creative, innovate, design, fail, fail again, then succeed, you have a brain, use it.
Show some respect to yourself and to others.
Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery....
I also don't think anyone was talking about making a bunch of money off of it. |
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| "Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery...."
?
Please ask the few million patent owners, designers, innovators and originators how flattered they felt after they've been ripped off after working hard to get where they are. The vast majority would strongly disagree with that statement someone made once upon a time.
Money or no money, it is the lack of respect where the problem is.
Have fun in life, have fun making YOUR lures, enjoy catching fish.
Best of luck to you all.
Edited by Muskymilleman 12/6/2016 5:45 PM
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Location: Ashland WI | Muskymilleman - 12/6/2016 5:43 PM
"Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery...."
?
Please ask the few million patent owners, designers, innovators and originators how flattered they felt after they've been ripped off after working hard to get where they are. The vast majority would strongly disagree with that statement someone made once upon a time.
Money or no money, it is the lack of respect where the problem is.
Have fun in life, have fun making YOUR lures, enjoy catching fish.
Best of luck to you all.
Is there a patent on headlock lips?
If not, why wouldn't someone try to copy it? Clearly it works well. Sometimes it does not pay to try to reinvent the wheel. |
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| No.
If you understand patents you'll realize more then likely they will not not offer one on a fishing lure lip.
Once again it goes back to honor and respect which clearly a lot of people don't care about. Be CREATIVE! It really isn't difficult.
There is lots of different ways to make a lure walk. THINK!
Enjoy yourself in which ever path you choose to take. Some will take easy way, some will take the road less travelled and some will blaze their own trail.
Goodluck to you all.
Edited by Muskymilleman 12/7/2016 8:11 AM
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Location: Ashland WI | Muskymilleman - 12/7/2016 8:08 AM
No.
If you understand patents you'll realize more then likely they will not not offer one on a fishing lure lip.
Once again it goes back to honor and respect which clearly a lot of people don't care about. Be CREATIVE! It really isn't difficult.
There is lots of different ways to make a lure walk. THINK!
Enjoy yourself in which ever path you choose to take. Some will take easy way, some will take the road less travelled and some will blaze their own trail.
Goodluck to you all.
I don't really have a horse in this race because I do not make any lures. I do think you are making it into a bit bigger deal than it is.
Since the beginning of time man has tried to make a better, cheaper mousetrap. I guess I don't see anything wrong with someone taking someone else's idea and expanding on it. Again, this happens all the time. Is there something wrong with someone building there own Double ten lures?
I think this aids in innovation and is quite possibly why patents only last so long.
And to your last quote, if the easy way is the best way, that is certainly the way I would choose to go. Why blaze your own trail if you can't get to the same end result anyway? |
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Location: Waukee, IA | Muskymilleman - 12/7/2016 8:08 AM
No.
If you understand patents you'll realize more then likely they will not not offer one on a fishing lure lip.
Once again it goes back to honor and respect which clearly a lot of people don't care about. Be CREATIVE! It really isn't difficult.
There is lots of different ways to make a lure walk. THINK!
Enjoy yourself in which ever path you choose to take. Some will take easy way, some will take the road less travelled and some will blaze their own trail.
Goodluck to you all.
Whine much?
Some people just want to make a lure themselves that has a specific action. Plus your entire argument is completely idiotic when you take into consideration that there is really only two lip types, square and round bill. Everything else is just a slight variation of those two. Nobody else gets all ruffled up over it.
But since this is a troll account I assume all logical argument is lost on you. Troll on, princess! |
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| This is a sub forum for bait builders to talk about the particulars of bait building. If we want to talk about what makes a particular bait tick, then that’s what this forum provides us to do. If builders want to make a lure for themselves, for whatever reason, they are free to do so. If you don’t want to contribute to the conversation, then don’t. If you want to complain about someone copying and somehow affecting someone else’s livelihood there are other places to do that. Please save your holier than thou integrity bs. for elsewhere. The people here like to make lures for themselves, maybe they want to make a tallywacker or a grandma or maybe a headlock. Even it’s actually taking a caliper to another lure they will still enjoy their hobby of bait making and take pride in what they make. Bait builders have been copying each other’s bait concepts for a long long time. Get over it. Heck the Make-a-lure company’s whole scheme is “use our products to copy baits for yourself”. If Moore’s sees market demand for a shape of a lip then he is free to do so with nothing to stop him, that’s his business. That being said there is much more going on in a headlock than the shape of the lip. If you want to make bait to do what a headlock does you need a tall sided bait for the flash. You need a buoyant bait weighted so it floats barley upright. To make a bait wander you need weights widely spaced with it balanced towards the rear. The shape of the lip does not cause the wander, it’s the front to back balance. All baits wander, it’s just a matter of speed. You want to get the balance so it wanders at the speed you want. If you are going to use Moore’s new polycarbonate lip you will need weight in the nose to make up the difference between the weight of aluminum. The feature I find most unique in the headlock is the clevis pin. And I wouldn’t recommend using it in a polycarbonate lip. When you tune a bait you can only make it so wild before it blows out, what the clevis pin in the lip does is allows you to tune it just a bit more wild. The pin puts the line tie offset from the surface of the lip. This gives leverage for the wild bait to be pulled back to center and not blow out. I unscrupulously and shamelessly copied this idea and make some baits that way. I haven’t lost any sleep over it and it works great. Kudos to whoever first used a clevis pin in a bait.
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| Awesome baits and post MRichardson |
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| tkuntz in response to your message.
Making a lure for yourself because you can't get one, or you are on a budget is understandable, i'm not a fan of it personally.
When someone asks "is there any interest?" I will use logic and assume it is to make money. This is where the problem is, ripping off a very specific design.
There is a lot more then two styles of lips, if you read all of my posts above you will have a better understanding of what I'm specifically talking about, I'm not talking about the tracing the number 17 lip in Rollie n Helens. I had clearly stated this is not what I was talking about in my above posts, maybe you missed that.
If you like someones design and want to use it to make money because you have kids to feed, then maybe a simply call or message them and simply ask of they would be okay with that. Some guys might actually say yes!!!
Maybe talk to the maker of the Headlock's and any other baitmaker who has been innovative and had there work ripped off for profit by someone else and then gladly quote their responses below.
As for trolling. I prefer to cast.
Edited by Muskymilleman 12/7/2016 11:41 AM
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| MRichardson
Yes, there is a lot more going on then the shape of the lip for the action on a Headlock, fairly simple stuff to figure out for a seasoned baitmaker.
Looking at your baits is clear you've liked the idea of a clevis pin on your lips, more then likely you got the idea from Headlocks (correct me if that is incorrect) that is your choice. But instead of copying the entire lip, you created a different shape all together. Yes there are obvious similarities but you made the attemp to change it, which I respect, there was at least the effort made.
Just out of curiosity, would you be okay if someone made an exact mold of your bait and started selling it to make money?
Just an honest question.
As for the future, I will gladly start a seperate thread somewhere else on the page if the moderators find that my post has nothing to do with baitmaking.
Cheers
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| Muskymilleman, I’m not sure who did it first, but I first saw the clevis pin on Duff’s bait, then I saw it on Joe’s, then on Lee’s and then on a few others. I then saw the pin’s for sale in the Moore’s catalogue and wanted to figure them out. That’s what I get out of bait building, the learning, challenges, and figuring out. I’m not in it to put food on the table though, for me just a hobby biz that barley pays for supplies. I do understand the feelings involved with someone copying an idea of mine, and I have seen all sides of it. For my day job I do design and development, I’ve had my ideas copied and I’ve been asked to design my around patented products. I’ve been assigned projects where if I wanted to keep my job I had to travel overseas and teach manufacturing techniques that cost many American jobs. I have seen the very first bait I designed, the Hellhound, copied many times since then. For me I have accepted that it will happen. The thing about innovators is when everybody else is trying to figure out and play catch up, they have moved on to the next idea and enjoy sharing in what they've learned. Some things I do for money, some things I do for free. It's a dog eat dog world
Edited by MRichardson 12/7/2016 12:49 PM
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Location: NorthCentral WI | Valid arguments on both sides of this one. However, copying the Headlock lip design is a minor infraction compared to what some companies have done... |
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| Wow! If I wanted to hear this much b*&^/#!g, I'd just tell my wife I'm going fishin! Lively talk......but a little over the top |
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Location: St. Lawrence River | Muskymilleman - 12/7/2016 9:08 AM
No.
If you understand patents you'll realize more then likely they will not not offer one on a fishing lure lip.
Once again it goes back to honor and respect which clearly a lot of people don't care about. Be CREATIVE! It really isn't difficult.
There is lots of different ways to make a lure walk. THINK!
Enjoy yourself in which ever path you choose to take. Some will take easy way, some will take the road less travelled and some will blaze their own trail.
Goodluck to you all.
You are a tool. This is the BASEMENT bait section, not the large scale manufacturing section. No one here is looking to make money from anyone's design, but simply trying to duplicate some of their favorites to see if they can get it done with a homemade version. Go preach somewhere else. |
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Location: Detroit River | Muskymilleman - 12/6/2016 3:41 PM I will say this as nicely as possible. Pretty pathetic that guys have to rip off someone elses work and design to make money! I'm not talking about lips/body styles that are generally available to the public in "do it yourself" tutorials or internet & lip cutouts that have been around for 50-100 years. No respect. No creativity. Just copy, copy, copy. Half of this industry has turned into a joke. Be creative, innovate, design, fail, fail again, then succeed, you have a brain, use it. Show some respect to yourself and to others. How is making the lip from polycarbonate vs. aluminum copying. The polycarbonate is thicker, which will give the lure less vibration than the thinner aluminum lip plus it can also affect the depth of the lure. There's plenty of older saltwater lures that have large aluminum lips so how do you know that the Headlock lip wasn't copied or inspired from them? |
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| Wow - intense.
Anyways - I have been working on a bait that is similar to Jon Bondy's original a bondy Bait.
I have designed a similar jig but in a very realistic profile. I used his as a starting point. I make them for me and my buddies but sell some to offset my costs, but not for a living. i don't feel this is wrong but have worried that this would offend him even though it has already been done by other companies who also had the same thing done to them. His lure is very unique, whereas a soft plastic paddletai swimbait is not (I have a variation of that too).
It's a gray area as very few lure ideas are actually unique or new, let alone patented.
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Location: Detroit River | Landry - 12/13/2016 1:53 PM Wow - intense. Anyways - I have been working on a bait that is similar to Jon Bondy's original a bondy Bait. I have designed a similar jig but in a very realistic profile. I used his as a starting point. I make them for me and my buddies but sell some to offset my costs, but not for a living. i don't feel this is wrong but have worried that this would offend him even though it has already been done by other companies who also had the same thing done to them. His lure is very unique, whereas a soft plastic paddletai swimbait is not (I have a variation of that too). It's a gray area as very few lure ideas are actually unique or new, let alone patented. Yes a couple of big name companies did basically come out with similar jigs but they haven't won people over compared to the Original Bondy or Bondy Wobbler. There's also been local guys to LSC & the DR that have come out with their own jig version's that had more detail & they were kind enough to give me a bait or 2 to try but they didn't win me over either. Of all the guys I've talked with regarding other musky jigs that came after the Bondy, none of them were impressed with the other jigs other than they had more detail. Details only help sell the bait to the fishermen, they don't help sell it to the fish. The popularity of the Water Wolf Shadzilla has others coming out with their versions as well. I'm going to skip the new ones & go with making my own larger version of my favorite bass paddle tail due to the fact that I've caught numerous muskies on them while bass fishing. Hopefully I don't procrastinate too much. FYI, the Original Bondy does have a realistic profile as it's the profile of a baby freshwater drum (sheephead), which musky in the DR & LSC eat a lot of.
Edited by Zib 12/13/2016 2:04 PM
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| I agree with everything above^^^
I have great respect for Jon - he is a good guy and his simple lures work great and catch fish. I'm not trying to steal business from him. I just like the artistic side of bait making. The fish don't notice the little details.
I have 5 baits I am pouring - none of them are earth-shattering new fishing ideas but all except the bondy jig mentioned are unique or different than what's out there.
I believe there is nothing wrong with stealing ideas and tweaking them. If a guy clones baits for himself and his buddies - good for him and who cares. Does it affect the original bait maker on the bottom line. Not likely. People are gonna buy Jons stuff due to his hard earned and deserved reputation. Buying a similar custom bait is going to be something they do just because of their Muskie lure and fishing addiction.
This is a basement baits forum not a commercial forum as mentioned.
Edited by Landry 12/13/2016 4:27 PM
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| I made a solid plastic paddletAil swimbait as well with a twist. It runs different than a shadzilla. I stole and blended designs from Berkeley Hollow Bellies, Salt Shakers and Shadzilla. Mine moves different than all three but that is to be expected with swimbaits as they are touchy. Referring to these baits allowed me to get in the ballpark of where I wanted to be.
Technology advancements work on this same principle and often flirts with the line regarding patents infringement |
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| The unique design shape and use of clevis pin are the main factors I'm speaking of, material used is a moot point.
Please read my all of my posts in this thread and I've clearly stated the main issue at hand.
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