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| Message Subject: Flourocarbon | |||
Jason Bovee |
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Posts: 55 Location: Nekoosa, WI | It seems that I am the only one out there that does not believe in anything but wire! Am I alone in saying that you are setting your self up for disaster by using hard mono and flourocarbon?? I see abosolutly NO advantage whatsoever by using them. So why do so many people feel they need to? Edited by Jason Bovee 3/16/2006 10:24 PM | ||
| muskihntr |
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Posts: 2037 Location: lansing, il | 5-6 years ago i felt the same way, but after seeing and hearing of guys putting tons more fish in the boat than i do, and using nothing but fluorocarbon, without failure i started giving it a try. i started making my own leaders. each year i was using them more and more. the last 2 years i have used them probablly 80-90% of the time. you cannot treat it like wire, i constantly inspect my leaders for nicks and scrapes or freying, knot and crimp condition. in the 5 years or so using them i have never had a failure. last year i had over 20 fish on the same leader up to 47". i use 100# fluoro and am going to be using alot of 130# this year. i wouldnt recommend using anything less than 90# but some people do. i am in the process of starting a leader company and am selling them. i will put my 130# leaders up against anyones at a better price as well. if your interested in getting some heavy duty fluoro leaders drop me a email. [email protected] | ||
| Lip Ripper68 |
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Posts: 1 | Just remember, when using flouro with crank baits they WILL NOT get as deep as when mono or wire is used. Reason, flouro IS NOT round, it is oval. Mono and wire is round. Flouro will actually plain out the crank baits where as the others cut the water. Don't believe me? Check it out for yourself. Hard mono is NO weaker and WILL NOT cut any easier than flouro of the same pound test. I prefer 100lb test or more mono leaders over flouro leaders when trolling or when using any kind of crank baits. Also, I have never had a musky get "cut" by by wire leaders. Wire is not a Ginsu knife. One last thing, NEVER use crimps on ANY of your leaders. Crimps will pinch, weaken or cut your leader material. Tie or twist (single strand wire) your leaders. Yes, even 130+ pound mono and flouro can be tied very tight. Da Big Lip Ripper | ||
| muskihntr |
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Posts: 2037 Location: lansing, il | i argree with you on the mono/fluoro thing. but fluoro is more invisable. i like the way it holds up better and have never had a problem, i do use mono for my trolling leaders though as well!.... i dont however argee with you on the crimping.... i have used both and had great sucess. if you crimp you have to do it right, a quality tool is a must so that you dont cut the material..putting it in pliers a vise etc and cranking it down will definetly cut the leader, when you use a quality crimpping tool it allows the ends to stay slightly flared so the ends dont cut into the line!...i am in the process of coming out with a knotted/crimped leader that i will put up against anyones leaders on the market! Edited by muskihntr 3/17/2006 7:26 AM | ||
| VMS |
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Posts: 3469 Location: Elk River, Minnesota | On the note of a crimping pliers, what is the best one out there? I have a crimp pliers, (paid, I think around $15 for it) it looks pretty much like a regular pliers, but has a cutter on the end with the crimpers behind them. I have used the leaders I have crimped (used double sleeved crimps, but I don't like the crimp itself when I am done. Everything seems to flatten out...it looks horrible. They have not failed me, but I don't feel secure with my crimps...I need a better pliers Any recommendations? Steve | ||
| Jason Bovee |
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Posts: 55 Location: Nekoosa, WI | I am still not convinced! Everybody talks about how they catch way more fish on flouro because it is "invisable". I do not buy into that at all. Even in "gin" water, I have not seen a problem with fish hitting baits with a wire leader. While fishing side by side with somebody using flouro, I have caught just as many if not more with wire. The fish are concentrating on your lure to possibly "eat" and not checking to see if there is a wire on the front of it or not. If fish were really "leader shy", then tell me why they will eat a bait at boatside with a rod stuck in the water slashing around a foot from the lure? As far as flouro being easier on the fish when they roll up in the line, that may be true to a point. But any type of line or leader they roll in will remove slime. The absolute worst thing to do to a musky, besides holding it out of the water for ever for pictures, is sticking a bunch of hooks in it's face. People fail to realize this. I have seen quite a few muskies lost on flouro leaders because of breakage. Those fish were then swimming around with a face full of hooks attached to a lure and possibly had there mouths pinned shut. I have NEVER had one of my wire leaders break, so all in all I will stick to my guns on "wire" and after seeing and hearing the horror stories of some, will never use flouro. I guess I am just not wanting to be "trendy" when there is so many things that can go wrong with flouro. Looks like this will be a great debate for some time. Feel free to chime in on this one, and let's hear everbody's take on them. Jason Bovee | ||
| muskihntr |
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Posts: 2037 Location: lansing, il | http://www.basspro.com/servlet/catalog.TextId?hvarTextId=4693&hvarD... these are the ones ive been using the last 4 years | ||
| muskihntr |
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Posts: 2037 Location: lansing, il | jason, to each their own.....ive heard the horror stories too, but like i said i approached it with a open mind, and started experimenting with it 5-6 years ago. i have really put it to the test the last 2 years, catching fish up to 50 inches as well as going 20 fish on one single leader! i also had a fish last fall inhale a bait into its gullett and fought it with nothing but fluoro clenched between its teeth. (47 inches)not bragging just givin my testament of what ive put them thru. it may not be for everyone, if you dont have confidence in it by all means dont use it. drop me a email when you can i have somthing to run by you! [email protected] Edited by muskihntr 3/17/2006 1:07 PM | ||
| muskihntr |
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Posts: 2037 Location: lansing, il | i might add that all fluorocarbon is not the same, in alot of instances you get what you pay for!!! i truely believe that seaguar and climax make the best stuff out there, i have experimented with other brands and though i havnt lost fish or baits i just wasnt satisfied with the way it was wearing over time. im not going to go into brand trashing, but i will say that i will stick with the 2 i mentioned! | ||
| ESOX Maniac |
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Posts: 2752 Location: Mauston, Wisconsin | Da Big Lip Ripper- ROFLMAO - Are you really convinced fluorocarbon is oval and it causes lure's to plane out? Come on you've been hanging with the L. Ron H. folks to long. Both Fluoro & mono are extruded the same way! The weight of a steel leader actually impedes the action of most lures( I think it also affects gliders). What's up with the "Ginsu knife" thing? Please explain. BTW: I do agree with you about not using crimps & tying +130lb flourocarbon or hard mono. Have fun! Al | ||
| Jason Bovee |
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Posts: 55 Location: Nekoosa, WI | Ben, I am indeed happy with the amount of fish I catch.(77 last season) As far as being "high and holy", I am not quite sure what you mean by that? I never said that I am. As far as snaps go, I don't use them either as they are just another weak link. Everybody seems to agree that flouro does fail at one time or another. As far as fish rolling and getting leader marks, well sometimes that happens. But what you are saying is that a rub from a wire leader is no good, while at the same time you just stuck a bunch of hooks into a muskies face, and possibly it's gills and eyes! Which is worse? This will make my 21st year fishing muskies, quite succesfully I might add, and I just do not see the advantages to flouro as I stated a couple posts back. It is not nessesary to use flouro under any circumstances unless you don't want to possibly scratch a fish. If this is the case, take off all of your hooks from your lures as hooks will do more damage to a fish than one that get's a rub mark from wire, and flouro will sratch fish just as wire will. Jason | ||
| rpike |
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Posts: 289 Location: Minneapolis | I used to love fluoro leaders, mostly because they don't kink. I could catch pike after hammer handle pike, and my leaders were great. As we all know, one dink pike is usually all it takes to mangle a leader. I also liked how the flexibility improved the action on many lures. BUT, I was just sick when a big fish inhaled a spinnerbait and shredded the leader about 2" above the snap. I sure hope the fish was able to spit the lure... So, yes, fish CAN cut fluoro leaders. Maybe not often, but it can happen. I know lots of people that have never had a problem with fluoro leaders; I was one of the for a long time, but I don't want to see another leader cut by a fish like that. I've since switched to Tyger braid. | ||
| Jason Bovee |
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Posts: 55 Location: Nekoosa, WI | Ben, The majority (90%) of my time is spent casting. As you are a troller mainly, why not use Toothy Critter or Tyger Leader? I have toyed with this a little the last couple of years with good results. It seems as if it would be the best of both worlds for you or anybody else who likes flouro, without the negetives associated with wire or flouro. Being that it is coated stranded wire, it won't cut into the fish while being more abrasion and tooth resistent than flouro. Jason Bovee | ||
| C_Nelson |
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Posts: 576 Location: Sheboygan Falls, WI | Actually Al, I will have to agree with Lip Ripper on this one about the flouro being oval. I have shown people this over and over again. Take a piece of leader strength flouro and roll it between your fingers. You will notice that it does not roll, but "flip" in your fingers. Now, take a piece of mono and do the same; round. In fact, I did it at the Milwaukee Musky Show this year with some guys and they could not believe that the flouro was NOT round. One guy got a bit testy when I first told him that the flouro was not round. After I put it in his hands, he appologized for tearing into me. Products compared, 100lb Vanish flouro and 100lb Big Game leader material. There are other flouro's out there that we have compared the shape to as well. Never had a problem with either of them breaking on me. Not sure where he heard about the planing of the line, but he is not the only one that believes that. I do know for a fact that Steve Heiting was fishing Eagle with Kevin Schmidt a couple of years ago. Kevin was seeing fish and Steve was not. Steve switched to the same thing and still nothing. Being the observant fisherman he is, Steve noticed that by the angle of the line in the water that Kevins bait was coming back to the boat deeper than his own. They switched baits to make sure it was not just the bait. Steve finally got out of Kevin that he (Kevin) was using a mono leader and Steve was using a flouro leader. Steve switched to the mono leader, bait was getting deeper and he was seeing fish as well. Same line, same bait, same everything; except for the leader. One was mono and one was flouro. Even though we own 7-Strand and sell wire and crimps, I personally stay away from crimps as well when making my musky leaders from any kind of material. One little hint though when tying mono or flouro leaders, to cinche it down good and tight, go to the store and get yourself some KY lubricating jelly. Make the knot with a longer tag end, lube up the knot and tighten that sucker up. I use a regular fishing knot that I have used for years. I put a screw in hook in a 2x4, stand on the wood and hook the snap or swivel to the hook and pull. That baby tightens right up. The reason to use KY jelly is that it is water based and not petroleum based and will not break down the mono or the flouro. Not so sure about LR and his Ginsu knife theory though. I personally use mono, flouro, straight wire and 7-strand leaders. I believe that they all have a time and a place. For many, it is a personal preference as to what they feel most comfortable using and what applications anglers are using them. Some will go with nothing but single strand, some with only 7-strand, some with just mono, others with only flouro and yet others swear by titanium. I have yet to have any type of the 4 leaders I use fail. I do keep a close eye on their condition though, whether it be nicks, kinks, sharp bends or strands of broken wire. I think for a person to not have a leader fail they need to really keep an eye on it. It is just another tool that we use that must be looked at carefully. Just throwing out some experiences and thoughts on this one. Chuck | ||
| ESOX Maniac |
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Posts: 2752 Location: Mauston, Wisconsin | Chuck, Very interesting. My appology to LR if I came off as a bit skeptical. I am intimately knowledgable about the extrusion process to manufacture mono & flourocarbon fishing line. BTW: Quite simple but very interesting process. I had to sign a non-disclosure agreement before I could enter the plant. I just checked a sample of the 80lb flourocarbon I've been using for our ZALTNAD "No-See-Um's" and it's definitely round. I verified it with a light test, i.e., because of it's low refractive index flourocarbon acts like light pipe. I took a 12" sample and made a very careful cut at each end using a scalpel with very sharp edge to prevent deforming of the material by the cutting instrument (a new razor blade would also work). Then hold one end close to a small lamp and look at other end with a magnifier to verify the shape. It actually works pretty slick. The only way I can think of for the fluoro to deform into an oval is poor production process/quality control. I think one huge potential for failure is not backing off the drag immediately after the hook set. Like you I'm always checking my fluoro leader. So far in 3 years I haven't had any problems with bite off's using fluorocarbon. That includes not only muskies and large pike, but some toothy saltwater critters too. Perhaps it's a gamble, but I think it's worth the risk. It works exceptionally well for big walleye's, i.e., if there are large pike or muskies in the same water. Have fun! Al | ||
| muskihntr |
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Posts: 2037 Location: lansing, il | rpike, im just curious what size fluoro you were using as well as brand and age of the leader..thanks you can email me or pm me if ya want instead of on here, im interested in absorbing some info good and bad! thanks | ||
| C_Nelson |
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Posts: 576 Location: Sheboygan Falls, WI | Hey Al, I do not know about others, but all of the Vanish flouro that we make is oval. I have not had a problem with it breaking or holding up though. I know I get Steve his stuff that he uses and he has not had a problem with it either. Flouro, mono, super braids are all the same deal from company to company; some are round, some oval, some have a tight weave and some don't. It is all in the process that is used. I have been in the line extrusion area a few times and it is wild how it is done. Couldn't even tell you how the process works, but it is cool to watch the stuff being made. Have a good one, Chuck | ||
| Guest |
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| I use many brands of leaders for different applications. 7-strand for crankbaits -wire for gliders and spinnerbaits-flouro for twitchers and Kilr eels. I'd love to be able to use flouro all the time but it is flexible and wraps around the arm on spinnerbaits and it's to flexible to control gliders. Flouro adds action to crankbaits but they don't seem to run as deep as with 7-strand. Great for twitchers and plastic however. Love it on Bull Dawgs. I had a 49 incher hit from behind on a Bull Dawg and I jerked it out of her mouth, she disappear but reappeared at the boat and hit it head-on. I almost lost the rod. The upper single hook on the Bull Dawg was thru her upper jaw and the leader snap was down her throat. That poor leader transversed her dentals numberous times during the fight. I was honestly just waiting for that leader to snap but it never did. After I got her in and released, I ran that leader over my lips to check for cuts becasue I could see any. Not one cut. Amazing stuff. Seaguar 80b. flouro | |||
| Peaches |
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Posts: 273 | I have a lot of the same concerns about Flouro as Jason has stated above. My biggest fear about using flouro is on the rocks. The majority of my fishing is done in very rocky areas and feel that flourocarbon will get shreaded. I would love to try flouro leaders due to some of its great characteristics, but am afraid of it breaking fishing in the rocks. Anybody have any experience with this stuff in the rocks? Jeff | ||
| Bulletproof Tackle |
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| Just thought I would chime in here because I do have extensive experience using fluoro. I might be a little biased since I manufacture fluoro leaders but IMHO fluoro is the best leader material available or I would not offer them for sale. Not all fluoro is created equal. I have had the best success using 100lb Cortland Climax. It seems to be the most abrasion resistant and the most durable of all of the different brands. I have experimented with all of it and I have 100% confidence in the Cortland Climax. I have had problems using the other brands. The strength of the leader comes from the connection. I have developed a knot that retains 100% of the line strength and makes the leaders extreemly long lasting. I use a doubled thru the componant knot that gives you twice as much strength and wear resistance where you you need it the most. I have heard that if you crimp it correctly it should be good enough, but I like things to be "bulletproof" and I have always believed that crimps are a potential weak link. As far as the fish being able to bite through the leader I believe that it is extreemly unlikely. I know people who use fluoro for quick strike rigs and have never had a bite off. I have used fluoro for all of my casting and trolling for at least 4 years now with over 300 muskies in the boat (including nine 30lb plus fish and two 40lb plus fish)and have never exerienced a bite off with the 100lb Climax. Most of the stories about bite offs with fluoro are more than likely by guys using a smaller pound test or different brand. The number one reason why I choose to use fluoro leaders is the durability. I am not too concerned with the muskies being able to see the leader. If they want the bait they will bite it. Fluoro does not kink like wire. When a wire leader kinks it is time to tie on a new one. With the fluoro I find that leader changes are few and far between. I troll on Lake of the Woods and Lake Vermillion where my baits are pounding rocks for a week at a time and I have never had to change a leader because the rocks tore one up. Another reason I like the fluoro is because in my days of using seventsrand wire I had several fish caught trolling that got wound up in the leader and had bad slices accoss their back. With the fluoro this simply does not happen. Sorry this post got so long... Duane | |||
| rpike |
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Posts: 289 Location: Minneapolis | Mskihntr, Sorry about my late response. I was using 80# Seagar when I had the bite off. The leader was pretty new; I had been using it for several days, and I was good about checking it for nicks or damage. There never was any. That was one of the things I liked about fluoro - it seemed to hold up amazingly well. I caught many fish where the leader was being sawed between their teeth and the leader had no visible damage. Then I had one fish shred it instantly. So, bite offs CAN happen. | ||
| muskihntr |
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Posts: 2037 Location: lansing, il | thanks | ||
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