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Muskie Fishing -> General Discussion -> Burning
 
Message Subject: Burning
BNelson
Posted 9/7/2017 9:31 AM (#876881 - in reply to #876879)
Subject: Re: Burning





Location: Contrarian Island
so what if he was out the same 8 hours and got 2 by throwing dawgs deep and you were throwing topwater shallow.. of course there are going to be windows that we simpy miss...but the best on the water catch more when the windows do open... I've always said, the fish have more control when we catch them, than we do..... it's not rocket science... I get skunked and my butt handed to me w the rest, but I'm darn sure when I think a window is going to open, or one is open I'm making the best use of my time... going out, throwing a double 10 around and then going in without a hit and saying they weren't biting is what most seem to do these days. Golf is a very good analogy to musky fishing imo...we CAN control more than most think. while I see your points, hours on the water doesn't equal more fish.

Edited by BNelson 9/7/2017 9:35 AM
musky-skunk
Posted 9/7/2017 10:42 AM (#876904 - in reply to #875986)
Subject: RE: Burning





Posts: 785


I feel like the fish smart vs fish hard debate is pretty silly. You need to do both to be successful. I've been having really good numbers this summer per time on the water but noticed the bite times haven't always been conventional. One weekend for example on the first day we caught 3 fish at 6a.m., 11p.m. and 12:45p.m. The very next day I put in a half day before heading home and caught one at 12:30p.m. and the other at 1p.m. after starting again at sunrise. That is so typical and it shows that if a person started mid morning then fished until noon, then went back out for the sunset bite and left at dark there's a very real chance they'd of caught zero fish instead of 5. I actually considered that weekend to be a bit on the slow side too but was glad with the end result. Now that said not everyone fishing my same hours would have put themselves on fish either. The key is to be out there long hours while consistently putting yourself on fish.

As far as luck goes you can do everything right and just not get the bite you deserved and conversely sometimes the guy doing everything wrong can catch a giant (thinking of the newspaper articles of kids on docks catching 50's on a nightcrawler). Realistically though I think it's safe to say "luck" is the much lesser side of the equation. More often then not putting in the hours while being "smart" on boat control, presentation and location will give a person the desired result.

Edited by musky-skunk 9/7/2017 10:45 AM
14ledo81
Posted 9/7/2017 11:35 AM (#876918 - in reply to #876881)
Subject: Re: Burning





Posts: 4269


Location: Ashland WI
BNelson - 9/7/2017 9:31 AM

so what if he was out the same 8 hours and got 2 by throwing dawgs deep and you were throwing topwater shallow.. of course there are going to be windows that we simpy miss...but the best on the water catch more when the windows do open... I've always said, the fish have more control when we catch them, than we do..... it's not rocket science... I get skunked and my butt handed to me w the rest, but I'm darn sure when I think a window is going to open, or one is open I'm making the best use of my time... going out, throwing a double 10 around and then going in without a hit and saying they weren't biting is what most seem to do these days. Golf is a very good analogy to musky fishing imo...we CAN control more than most think. while I see your points, hours on the water doesn't equal more fish.


Couple things. In my scenario, we were both sucker fishing the same spots. Same depths, etc. I do think in that instance, he was more fortunate than I.

When comparing anglers to each other, luck, time on the water, etc. may not be as comparable. Skill is probably the overriding factor. But, when you can compare how you yourself did from one month or year to the next, at that point, I think time is the key. If I fish more, I catch more fish. I do know that.

BNelson
Posted 9/7/2017 11:51 AM (#876921 - in reply to #876918)
Subject: Re: Burning





Location: Contrarian Island
interesting I just got a PM from a guy that was telling me he agrees with what I typed in this thread...he said he fished just as much this year, but has been fishing smarter, and has caught 3.5 x as many as he did last season... so for him, it wasn't just more time on the water.. must just be luck.

say 10 yrs ago, I would probably catch a fish every 7 to 8 hrs on water. I'm at 4 hrs now the last few years.. when your skill level goes up, you can catch more fish with less time... you'll figure that out someday.

Edited by BNelson 9/7/2017 11:54 AM
Grass
Posted 9/7/2017 1:15 PM (#876931 - in reply to #875986)
Subject: Re: Burning




Posts: 608


Location: Seymour, WI
I'm with BNelson on this one. I think there's a big difference in the skill level of different musky fishermen. The guys who catch fish are not catching them just because they spend more time on the water. They're catching them because they're doing something different than the rest of the crowd. They figure out where the fish are and then the key is putting a bait in front of the fish that will trigger a strike. Triggering a strike is the hardest part. On pressured water you have to do something different than all the other guys out there to get that fish to eat. I think the really good musky fisherman are using baits quite a bit differently than the rest of the crowd. Sometimes they're using speed as a trigger, sometimes they're using cover contact as a trigger, sometimes they're fishing deeper or shallower than everyone else, but it's not just luck. They're doing something different. I've fished with enough good sticks to see the difference.
Saul
Posted 9/7/2017 2:12 PM (#876939 - in reply to #875986)
Subject: Re: Burning




Posts: 57


Completely agree with bnelson. Last year was my first full year of musky fishing at age 21 and I'd go out and toss bucktails around basically hoping I'd get lucky. I ended up with 4 in the boat with ALOT of time on the water... Learned a lot though. This year I've spent a similar amount of time on the water, but have spent a lot of time focusing on the smaller details. I've put 14 in the boat so far this year by fishing smarter. Attention to detail has definitely been the difference, if I would have done the same as I did last year I would be in the same spot.
14ledo81
Posted 9/7/2017 2:50 PM (#876942 - in reply to #875986)
Subject: Re: Burning





Posts: 4269


Location: Ashland WI
I don't think time on the water vs. skill level is in direct disagreement with each other. How do we gain that skill level? Or find that certain uncharted rock pile or that nich in the weed line? Time on the water...

More time I spend on the water, my skill level increases.

Edited by 14ledo81 9/7/2017 2:54 PM
BNelson
Posted 9/7/2017 3:09 PM (#876948 - in reply to #875986)
Subject: Re: Burning





Location: Contrarian Island
It should. Agreed. But for many it doesn't.
upnortdave
Posted 9/7/2017 4:51 PM (#876962 - in reply to #876948)
Subject: Re: Burning




Posts: 668


Location: mercer wi
Didn't think my luck comment would take off lIke this. I put my time in for year learning water that I fish. Figuring out how structure layed. How bait sat on it. How it was affecred by weather. And am still figuring out why a fish is on certain spot at any given time. I think I fish smarter now then I did 5 years ago. Time on the water improved my knowledge after many frustration.
Everyone set in their way and their thinking.
So if your skill set is the way some people feel can you then say you can guarantee a caught fish at any 1 of your hot spots at any time?
VMS
Posted 9/13/2017 10:38 AM (#877777 - in reply to #876868)
Subject: Re: Burning





Posts: 3467


Location: Elk River, Minnesota
BNelson - 9/7/2017 8:28 AM

...skill level in any sport comes into play. I do agree, improving your odds is always important, but that is not luck. that is simply fishing smart.
did we fish a lot of hours, yup, but we also put on 600 miles for the week, think of the run time we had per day.. most guys with less hours could have been actually fishing more than we did... we put 92 hrs on the water, we caught 29, so we caught a fish about every 3 hrs. did we get lucky on a few fish, sure, we all do. but we fish smart.
So far this year I have 71 in the boat in 294 hrs on water. I only point that out because I am sure there are lots of guys with more hours than me on the same waters with a lot less fish...so I'm just lucky I guess... and there could be guys with more fish in less hrs ....the guy that puts the most hours doesn't always catch the most fish. When you start looking at a guys hr per fish you start to see who uses their time on the water wisely and who could use some tweaking....luck is always part of the game but when you dissect the data, luck becomes less a part of the overall picture. after 24 yrs chasing these fish I have figured out a few things, and relying on luck is not one of them. The best on the water catch the most for a reason.
it's like golf, if 2 guys both play 100 rounds, and one guy has 50 birdies and one guy has 200, was the guy with 200 just that much luckier? :)


Hiya,

In this scenario, or any scenario for that matter, the body of water also plays a big role in those numbers. Take those same number of hours and put yourself on a different body of water....Say...Leech Lake for example. The population density is nowhere near as high, nor do you have anywhere near as much structure to fish as lake of the woods...As such, the hours per fish would be vastly different...much lower than that of lake of the woods numbers. On lake of the woods when a pattern is dialed in, you have a bunch more places to go find them...hence the 600 miles or so of travel that BNelson made in his latest trip to that locale. More places to find fish, hence more fish to contact.

No doubt time on the water learning it is huge....Improving technique is also huge... The body of water you fish is also huge... The numbers essentially when someone puts them out there, are only relative to where that person was fishing.

The key here, I believe, is definitely putting time on the water...Assuming your technique most likely improves with time, you increase productivity, but learning the water is a major portion...that involves time. Then, in years to come, your fish per hour should increase...you have more spots to try, with more techniques in your arsenal to try out on the fish that do show.

Steve
Pat Hoolihan
Posted 9/13/2017 11:15 AM (#877785 - in reply to #875986)
Subject: Re: Burning




Posts: 386


^^^Ding ding
BNelson
Posted 9/13/2017 11:22 AM (#877787 - in reply to #877785)
Subject: Re: Burning





Location: Contrarian Island
I agree to some degree, something else to think about is not only the population density of any given water but the pressure on that lake. I have fished many lakes in MN that have lower densities to say the Madison lakes that I fish but my fish per hour is consistent on both... why? there is very little pressure (compared to Madison) on those lakes in general. While they may be lower density they don't see nearly the pressure that other lakes do. I have many weeks on lakes like Bemidji where ppl say it's low density with 30 some fish in 100 hrs on water.. I was on a lake over the 4th of july this year in MN a few times and we saw ZERO musky boats... and it's a great musky lake... give me a lake with lower density and lower pressure and those fish often times can be fooled much easier than the opposite lake...there are other factors that come into play than just musky density. Of course one wouldn't expect the fish per hour ratio to be the same on Mille lacs as LSC, but overall the musky populations on "most" lakes in WI and MN are fairly similiar... time on the water of course is important to hone your skills...but to say it's just the body of water isn't really true at least by my data over the last 10 yrs...muskies are muskies.

Edited by BNelson 9/13/2017 11:27 AM
Pat Hoolihan
Posted 9/13/2017 12:16 PM (#877792 - in reply to #875986)
Subject: Re: Burning




Posts: 386


Where was it stated that it's "just the body of water?" He was simply stating that the body if water you fish plays a huge role when it comes to numbers. If you fish LSC all year compared to Leech...that becomes pretty obvious.
Brad P
Posted 9/13/2017 12:21 PM (#877793 - in reply to #875986)
Subject: Re: Burning




Posts: 833


I agree 100% with BNelson. My fishing time has decreased dramatically from where it was 5 years ago and yet my fish totals have been fairly consistent. I've learned when to go, how to effectively use different lures, various patterns, how to read fish, techniques to trigger, how the conditions tend to affect fish location, when to make a shift in pattern (and when not to.), etc. All of it adds up to better catch rates. I doubt any of my skills are perfect, but they are far more honed that they were 5 years ago and it makes a huge difference.

Anybody can go out and wash baits, if that was all it took then we'd never see guys make posts on here about their struggles, especially rookie anglers.
MuskyTime
Posted 9/13/2017 4:19 PM (#877821 - in reply to #876755)
Subject: Re: Burning




Posts: 331


Location: Stevens Point, Wisconsin
BNelson - 9/6/2017 9:02 AM

musky fishing is like golf.. tell Jordan Speith he's just lucky to win cuz he uses the right club, at the right time, and makes the right shots... lmfao.... luck is part of it, but the best take as much luck out of the equation as possible.


“Every day is a new day. It is better to be lucky. But I would rather be exact. Then when luck comes you are ready.”
? Ernest Hemingway, The Old Man and the Sea

Sidejack
Posted 9/13/2017 7:06 PM (#877839 - in reply to #875986)
Subject: Re: Burning





Posts: 1077


Location: Anoka
I couldn't agree more with every single thing that's been posted in this thread.
Oh, and to those that haven't figured "it" out yet, best of luck to all yawls.
Werd!
ToddM
Posted 9/14/2017 5:46 AM (#877884 - in reply to #875986)
Subject: Re: Burning





Posts: 20173


Location: oswego, il
Brad is pretty much nailing it. If you know what your doing and doing it at the right time and place you will catch more fish. There is nothing like being the only boat fishing really good musky water time after time. I can fondly remember a lake that gets alot more pressure now that i had to myself for a couple years and we averaged 4 fish in our first 20 trips. I have had similar results fishing other lakes like that one before the guides found them and shown to the masses.

Edited by ToddM 9/14/2017 5:47 AM
14ledo81
Posted 9/14/2017 6:22 AM (#877889 - in reply to #875986)
Subject: Re: Burning





Posts: 4269


Location: Ashland WI
I still think timing is a huge aspect of it. Take two guys with similar skill levels and timing is the difference maker.
BNelson
Posted 9/14/2017 7:07 AM (#877897 - in reply to #875986)
Subject: Re: Burning





Location: Contrarian Island
yes, I often say to my buds "timing IS everything" but the best musky fishermen I know capitalize the most when that times comes... there is absolutely NO way to 100% predict when muskies will become active, best advice I can give is to keep fishing the best spots over and over and over, so when a window does open you are on em... and when it does open, make hay! one of the differences between great anglers and an avg anglers is when fish are active the boat with 2 great anglers might have a 5 to 10 fish day or outing, the boat with less skilled might end up with 1 to 3... timing is huge but so is executing when that time comes... all good replies... been interesting to read !

Edited by BNelson 9/14/2017 7:09 AM
VMS
Posted 9/14/2017 7:15 AM (#877898 - in reply to #877884)
Subject: Re: Burning





Posts: 3467


Location: Elk River, Minnesota
ToddM - 9/14/2017 5:46 AM

Brad is pretty much nailing it. If you know what your doing and doing it at the right time and place you will catch more fish. There is nothing like being the only boat fishing really good musky water time after time. I can fondly remember a lake that gets alot more pressure now that i had to myself for a couple years and we averaged 4 fish in our first 20 trips. I have had similar results fishing other lakes like that one before the guides found them and shown to the masses.


Not sure I would agree brad is actually nailing it... It should be more of something we all realize as what I see him saying I would feel people see as common sense.

Key elements:
The body of water you choose helps or hinders catch rate
The body of water you choose helps/hinders the "average size" of fish you catch
The amount of time on that water learning it helps/hinders your catch rate
The techniques you use and how well you apply those techniques helps/hinders whether or not you are catching or even contacting fish.
The timing of when you go to a certain body of water helps/hinders catch rate

Grouping all of your fish together into one category so the numbers look good, is honestly painting a great picture and we can all sit there and say "Wow"...that's awesome... because those numbers skew toward certain bodies of water and not others and doesn't tell the whole story. Separate them out and those numbers now tell much more about how things really are.

Bodies of water change over time. Mille Lacs, Vermilion, Bemidji, you name it...they all go through ups and downs for various reasons. That is why we have seen so many guides over the years skip around from one body of water to another. They go where the fish are... Not all guides do that... and nor would I feel the masses of muskie fisherman have the time or the means to do so either...

BUT...that is not to say catch rates don't increase at all for individual bodies of water...that is not what I am saying at all. Catch rates should increase over time on a body of water, but that also fluctuates depending on other factors the fisherman is not in control of such as pressure, winter-kill (where it happens), catch and keep (whatever techniques are being used) by others etc. That all goes into choosing the body of water to fish.

Steve

Edited by VMS 9/14/2017 7:25 AM
BNelson
Posted 9/14/2017 7:32 AM (#877902 - in reply to #877898)
Subject: Re: Burning





Location: Contrarian Island
single best way to catch more isn't to simply fish longer hours, it's increasing your skill level... just like golf to get more birdies don't just golf more. get better! fish smarter, not harder. I guarantee we are doing a lot of things different than the masses that fish lotw the same week we do.... one spot we got 5 fish from 48 to 52 off we never saw another boat fishing it til the last day an indian guide hit it once... I'll take fishing where and when others aren't every day of the week over taking a number...maybe that is why I like night fishing so much

Edited by BNelson 9/14/2017 8:25 AM
Brad P
Posted 9/14/2017 7:52 AM (#877904 - in reply to #877902)
Subject: Re: Burning




Posts: 833


How you manage your day and the decisions you make are also a huge part of it. What observations do you make? Of those observations, which do you keep, which, if any, do you discard? When do you shift your pattern? When do choose to stick it out? Etc. Etc.

ToddM
Posted 9/14/2017 11:36 AM (#877932 - in reply to #875986)
Subject: Re: Burning





Posts: 20173


Location: oswego, il
Making all the right choices, that includes the body of water. Some people feel the need to live and die in one place. Good fishermen don't.

Edited by ToddM 9/14/2017 11:37 AM
NPike
Posted 9/14/2017 3:21 PM (#877953 - in reply to #876904)
Subject: RE: Burning




Posts: 612


musky-skunk - 9/7/2017 11:42 AM

I feel like the fish smart vs fish hard debate is pretty silly. You need to do both to be successful. I've been having really good numbers this summer per time on the water but noticed the bite times haven't always been conventional. One weekend for example on the first day we caught 3 fish at 6a.m., 11p.m. and 12:45p.m. The very next day I put in a half day before heading home and caught one at 12:30p.m. and the other at 1p.m. after starting again at sunrise. That is so typical and it shows that if a person started mid morning then fished until noon, then went back out for the sunset bite and left at dark there's a very real chance they'd of caught zero fish instead of 5. I actually considered that weekend to be a bit on the slow side too but was glad with the end result. Now that said not everyone fishing my same hours would have put themselves on fish either. The key is to be out there long hours while consistently putting yourself on fish.

As far as luck goes you can do everything right and just not get the bite you deserved and conversely sometimes the guy doing everything wrong can catch a giant (thinking of the newspaper articles of kids on docks catching 50's on a nightcrawler). Realistically though I think it's safe to say "luck" is the much lesser side of the equation. More often then not putting in the hours while being "smart" on boat control, presentation and location will give a person the desired result.


x2 all the way
esoxaddict
Posted 9/14/2017 5:32 PM (#877976 - in reply to #875986)
Subject: Re: Burning





Posts: 8703


Not so much for the young guys, but recognizing when you are likely to have feeding windows from day to day is huge. Beating the water to a froth when nothing is happening, leaving yourself tired and unable to focus when they finally decide to move is a mistake we used to make a lot. Sometimes it's best to take it easy, fish for something else, stop and have a sandwich, or go back to the cabin and take a nap for an hour and go back out later on. Putting in hours is one thing, being on top of your game when the other team finally shows up is another.
PIKEMASTER
Posted 9/15/2017 12:54 AM (#878020 - in reply to #876641)
Subject: Re: Burning





Location: Latitude 41.3016 Longitude 88.6160
Abu7000 - 9/5/2017 11:12 AM

I was the 3rd person in the back of the boat. I just got lucky. However you are right the first lure gets a lot more action, but not always the biggest fish. Over the years the 3rd person in the boat has caught the majority of fish over 50". I don't what this means.

Using a 500 Tranx with a handle that keeps becoming loose. I am not sure why the handle keeps loosening up, but I stripped the nutt over tightening it. Mostly my fault.


Use BLUE Lock Tight inside the Handle Nut
Do Not over tighten!!
If it comes loose after using Blue
Then use RED !! Lock Tight
JakeStCroixSkis
Posted 9/16/2017 3:25 PM (#878162 - in reply to #875986)
Subject: Re: Burning





Posts: 1425


Location: St. Lawrence River
Man i would like to try my hand at LOTW one day.. i dont even want to figure my numbers. Low density. The one thing i have going for me is that our average fish is 47"ish and it seems about 1 in every 3 or 4 that we contact is a 50+..

Focusing on prime times is definitely key here, to me. Has a lot to do with us getting better at this over the last couple years.

Edited by JakeStCroixSkis 9/16/2017 3:28 PM
BNelson
Posted 9/25/2017 3:26 PM (#879250 - in reply to #875986)
Subject: Re: Burning





Location: Contrarian Island
decision making is key to success, making good decisions at the right times pays off huge. Last weekend we had been having a fairly tough go of it one day. It was primetime, we have been seeing fish in one area and getting hits but it went cold, as my buddy Brett says "we were burning daylight" fast... I pulled the pin on our hot area to go to the last spot we had known a bigger fish to be....pull in, not 15 casts, 50" in the net and it wasn't even the one we saw. this past week only confirmed for me again how important it is to watch moon times ... anyone that doesn't believe they will up your odds at big fish is missing out on fish....when the weather has them in a funk the only shot you might get could be a moon rise/set/overhead/underfoot..make it count

Edited by BNelson 9/25/2017 3:31 PM
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