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Posts: 1220
| OK, I know tournament threads get nasty quick, they get taken down or “frozen,” and usually with good reason. An honest discussion without personal attacks, however, might get left alone and actually bear some fruit. The hoped for subject is: How do we reverse the trend of fewer cash tournaments? At, least in Wisconsin, with the end of the WMT-Pro-Mac last year and this week’s final Ironman event, there are actually ten events that I used to fish each year that are no longer available to me. Please refrain from why you think they are gone or why you think any tournament being gone is a great thing. Personally, I don’t care why or who is to blame…I just want those tournament weekends back in my summer. Everybody knows (me too) that I don’t exactly tear these things up with winning a whole lot, but it’s what I love to do with my summer. So, my request (and hope) is that others who enjoy this stuff will post what they would like to see. Somebody might just be thinking about putting on an event and they might like to hear it. I’ll toss out the first pitch: 1. A minimum of 75% of the entries should go back to the anglers or a charity or a fishery; find sponsors to cover anything else you want to earn. |
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Posts: 142
Location: Appleton, WI | Marty I do hope this lasts, I'll chime in. One thing that I really think matters is the "open book policy" when it comes to tournaments, at least the smaller ones. The three charlies and the muskies inc tournament a few weeks before on Pewaukee both did a good job with this. Where does the entry fee go and what is the exact payout structure? Guys don't want to feel robbed, and although when fishing those smaller events the payouts aren't appealing its still a tournament. These events made it clear that $ would go to stocking or back to the club for future use, we can't have tournaments for fish that aren't there! . This is what killed the WMT/Pro Mac in my opinion, when the $ got big the published information went away. Guys felt like the entry fees were going back to line the pockets of a select few individuals and therefore quit the trail. These tournaments don't have a chance to continue without guys that want to fish. Whether you fish the PMTT against 80 teams or a local event with 14 boats winning is still winning and to win you must beat everybody. The costs of running a venture like the PMTT are much higher and their entry fees are set to create attractive payouts and keep the trail operating. Over the past 4 or 5 seasons the PMTT has seen little change in entries, Cave and Eagle River have been around the same number each year. This is better than a decline like other trails have seen, and I believe that with the options limited for the 2015 season the PMTT at Eagle River will see a big jump in numbers. While the PMTT doesn't run open-books or payback 90% or anything like that they do a good job of making participants feel like their entries are handled. Before I sign up for a PMTT event I have a good approximation for how much of my 600 I have a chance to win back, and I'm fine with that %. The feeling of not knowing where the money is will keep anglers away.
Edited by PeonPETA 10/29/2014 12:29 PM
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Posts: 102
| I felt the Pro-MAC/WMT just had too many events. 6 2-day events, 14 1-day events, and 1 2-day Championship for those that qualify. While I understand it's nice to have many date options so more people can attend overall, I think it lowers the per event attendance. I'd rather see less tournaments with more entrants per tournament than more tournaments with less entrants per tournament. I think 6-8 2-day events for a qualification to a 2-day championship would be great. It'd make each tournament more meaningful towards qualifying for the championship, and higher payouts per event, which I think would get more people into more events.
For non-series tournaments, I think allowing day-of registration is a double edged sword, and I'm not sure if it helps or hurts in the long run. Still stuck on that one. |
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Posts: 32792
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | No comment. I tried 4 times and deleted several paragraphs 4 times. The KWM is a hoot, fish that one, Marty. |
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Posts: 1023
| Milwaukee Muskies Inc put together a nice little fall tournament. We had a few keys that we stuck to...
The first and foremost was transparency in the tournament. You have to know where your entry fees are going.
Another key was this...if you are helping to run the tournament, do not fish the tournament. It just looks bad.
Structured payout. We had a formula and it was easy to follow. With fewer boats, we eliminated two tiers so that the top 2 teams could get more of a payout. But that was determined by the anglers in the tournament.
Keep the entry fees reasonable. We gave a nice price break to Muskies Inc members...any member. The price break was more than an annual Inc. membership. This did attract a few members into local clubs.
I'm hoping that we will expand that one tournament into a little trail of tournaments this coming year. Seemed like guys who fished it liked it and it made the club a nice little amount of money that we will use for stocking or the raising of fish in the future.
Stay tuned for more! |
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Posts: 1220
| I suppose I may have implied a preference for "cash-only" events which isn't exactly where I'm at. I fished both Milwaukee MI chapter events this year, (even got a fish at one) and will provide St. Croix LT's for both next year. Also fished the Headwater's chapter Spring Classic (got a fish there too) and Paul's Pro Am. Looking very much at joining the Kevin Worral event too and supplied an LT last year even though I couldn't make it. Please believe I support everybody's tournaments. I just think there is a place for more (sort of) pro events. I love the PMTT, but it's only three events and a championship. My goal is just to have a great tournament to go to every weekend from ice-out to freeze-up. When I finally leave the junk-yard, that's my retirement plan. If I'm forced to stay home, my wife makes me watch the Batchlorette! |
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Posts: 427
| Junkman,
As I have said before you need to try out the Illinois Muskie Tournament Trail. You can not beat the atmosphere and they are raising money and doing many productive things for the fishery. They have started a scholarship program that gives money to a person going into the fields related to fishery biology, they have and continue to raise money for the stocking program in the state, and are actively involved in most things that have to do with the muskie fishery in the state of Illinois. They are in the process of expanding their interaction with all of the clubs throughout the state and have some really exciting things in the works. They do not pay out as high as some of the other tournaments do but they don't cost as much either and you could not ask for a better bunch of guys to be around. |
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Posts: 8719
| I think most guys want to see at least a reasonable chance at a return on their investment should they catch a fish. That said, I don't think many know what it costs to run a tournament. I suspect that's where most of the money goes. It would be nice to see payouts to more-than-a-few places, so if you catch a fish you at least have a chance at getting your entry fees back. It would also be nice to provide entrants with a rundown of where the money actually goes. I think any bitterness about payouts would quickly fade if folks knew what it costs to have a tournament in the first place. |
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Posts: 1023
| Esoxaddict: I don't think it costs very much at all. When we put ours together, the total cost was a permit, which I think was $50 or so. Outside of that, it was pure manpower. We had judgeboats, 2 of them. And they were chapter members who donated their time. Rules meeting was held at Smokeys, and they were great as they opened up really early for us, at no cost.
I don't know if the days of 75-100 boat tournaments will ever be back. But it sure would be nice to get a 30-40 boat field again. When you have that much in entry fees, you can pay out a lot of places and make it worthwhile. When you only draw 10-15 teams that makes it a lot tougher. |
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Posts: 626
Location: Madison, WI | First off, in the event of a tournament trail, I would like to see a running tally of the championship payout. So as of the start, championship payout is $0.00 and that total will build as the year goes on based on # of entries in the scheduled events. No more promises of huge payouts only to have like 1/4 of it actually pay. This way there are no surprises and everyone knows exactly what your fishing for. I also feel that teams should not be invited to fish a championship unless they had fished an event that year. Also pay only places that caught fish. There is no need to draw three places if only 2 fish were caught, that's just taking money from the two teams who rightfully deserve it by actually doing what everyone came there to do - catch fish. Also stick to your tournament rules and don't change them halfway through? Seems to me like these simple things could really make a great new trail! |
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Posts: 2230
Location: SE, WI. | QUOTE]esoxaddict - 10/30/2014 1:06 PM I think most guys want to see at least a reasonable chance at a return on their investment should they catch a fish. That said, I don't think many know what it costs to run a tournament. I suspect that's where most of the money goes. It would be nice to see payouts to more-than-a-few places, so if you catch a fish you at least have a chance at getting your entry fees back. It would also be nice to provide entrants with a rundown of where the money actually goes. I think any bitterness about payouts would quickly fade if folks knew what it costs to have a tournament in the first place. I like what Jeff had to say. I also think many more teams would enter if the entry fees were lower. Say a $150-$200 Per event. $300-$400 entries is just too steep for some. I think you would get more interest from the average fisherman that feel intimidated fishing a big money tourney. Let's say you had 4,500 in prize money. A break down like... $2,000. 1,000. 500. 400. 300 200. 100 Just a fun tourney that is not real cut- throat. Marty , I fished the ironman in Sept. I thought someone else was going to restart that trail. Great subject Marty:) JD
Edited by jdsplasher 10/30/2014 7:32 PM
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Posts: 1220
| JD, I was at that tournament too (no fish again) and talked to the young guy who said he's going to start a new trail (not continue that one). Totally nice kid and I hope he does do it. I'm hoping this thread will give him insight as to what guys are looking for. |
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Posts: 1220
| Just realized "nice kid" could be perceived as dismissing! Nothing like that meant! To me "kid" just means 45 and under! |
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Posts: 32792
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | I ain't a kid no more?
Dang. |
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Posts: 1220
| If I said I never met anybody who thought Steve didn't look like an old guy...would the thread get froze? Just asking, mind you...not saying it...just asking if I said it? |
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Posts: 32792
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Yeah, I admit it, I fart dust these days. |
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Posts: 8719
| I think we need to revisit how payouts are structured. Fished a tournament some years back where there were so few fish caught they drew names out of a hat for the last few places. It was nice to have a shot at some $$$, and I guess that's a fair way to do it. But to me that money should go to the teams that caught fish. Maybe paying to x number of places with standard payout amounts is not the way to go.
Here's an idea:
Take the total amount of payout money at the end of the day, divide that by total inches of fish caught, and then pay everyone who caught fish in the tournament based on that number. So let's say you have $10,000 to pay out. 15 fish were caught that day, totaling 500 inches of musky. Divide the $10k by 500. You get $20. So that's your multiplier.
If you caught a 42" fish that day, you get 42x$20 = $840. If you caught 3 30" fish, you get 90x20 = $1,800. If you got a 38, 42, and 43, you get 38+42+43 (123)x$20=$2,460
The top team for the day still gets the most money. And the team who catches a 30" fish, effectively in last place, gets $60. Everybody who caught fish gets something. The whole amount is paid out. If everyone is catching fish, a lot of guys get a little money. If only a few teams score, those few teams get a larger sum of money.
Maybe there are tournaments doing this, I don't know. But it seems to me that it would be a LOT more fun knowing that every qualifying fish had some sort of payout attached, and if you scored on a tough day it could be quite a lot.
Is that dumb? |
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Posts: 81
Location: Knot on the WATER | All, I thought it was a great attractor I believed, not sure what happened to it, but the Ironman had a $10,000.00 Ins policy if someone caught a 50" fish. Not sure what the cost of this was as for the policy, but was a nice little add on to the tournament, might be a good thing to have who ever either takes it over, or if any new one starts as of tournament wise. Long live the Ironman!! |
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Posts: 32792
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | The Kevin Worrall Memorial offers a fully rigged Tuffy ride for a 51, and if caught on a Suick, add $10K. Insurance is not cheap, but isn't awful, either.
Addict, that formula made my head ache. |
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Posts: 8719
| sworrall - 10/31/2014 7:02 PM
The Kevin Worrall Memorial offers a fully rigged Tuffy ride for a 51, and if caught on a Suick, add $10K. Insurance is not cheap, but isn't awful, either.
Addict, that formula made my head ache.
It's actually really simple. But then when I try to explain it it sounds ridiculously complicated. |
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Posts: 32792
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | That is exactly to problem. |
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Posts: 8719
| It's easy. Whatever the total payout is, divide that number by the total number of inches of fish caught. That number is your payout per inch of fish. You can add whatever prizes for a 50" fish or whatever. But the cash payout is all based on that number. No matter what, if you catch a (legal) fish, you're getting some sort of cash prize. If 15 other teams caught fish, you're not getting much. If only 3 teams caught fish, you're getting quite a bit more.
It's a much better measure of your angling success for the day. |
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Posts: 32792
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Small possible arguments:
1) If there are numbers of single smaller fish caught by large numbers of teams the top payout is diluted unacceptably. Basically, I'm saying it's rewarding mediocrity in many cases.
2) Way more work to prepare for the 'weigh in'
3) A ton more tax work for the organizer, and each winner has to receive a tax form and report the money, a hassle for $60.
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Posts: 89
| I don't you should be invited to a championship. If only 6 or 8 or however many boats it is boats qualify then thats it. Kind of unfair to the teams that actually caught a fish and qualified if someone won that didn't qualify |
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Posts: 2097
| What about winner take all? |
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Posts: 32792
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | That would encourage participation.
Not a good idea at all, but you already know that. |
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Posts: 4343
Location: Smith Creek | Guaranteed payouts for non-charity events. It isn't the participating anglers' fault the field doesn't fill. They shouldn't be penalized for the tourney organizer failing to fill the field.
Pay the anglers first, then take your profits by filling the field completely, a reward for a job well done. |
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Posts: 1220
| There's another aspect the PMTT likely captures best. It's a season of travel and competition even though there are just 3 qualifiers. If there were six or seven...it would be perfect! It's not just a tournament...it's more like a "summer." Sure there are the "Aces," some wannabes even a few "jerkbaits" here and there, but the vast majority are a group who just like competition added to a social activity. They get rooms or cabins together, go to the restaurants and bars together, have a big old party whenever they get to some specific town. They wear their "brag shirts" to the meetings and show off their big boats to each other....and more or less serve the same purpose a "Harley" event, Horse Show, or any similar sort of group thing. My boat dealer does it with auto racing! You find a thing you like, and a group you like, and you enjoy your life. That's how you have a great time when you don't win, and with muskys, YOU MAINLY DON"T WIN! It's a lifestyle! |
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Posts: 102
| Wonder if the "nice kid" that's going to attempt a replacement for Ironman would mind coming on here and informing us of what his plans are for his series? Or maybe even show up to a local Muskies Inc or other area club meeting to talk about it with members. The more people feel like they are part of it from the ground up, that their input helped make this thing a reality, would most likely bring more participation.
Rules I would love to see:
Entry Fees: max of $200 per team of 2
Payouts : 15 or less teams - 3 places; 16 - 30 teams - 5 places; 30 - 50 teams - 7 places (must catch a fish to place...if not enough teams catch fish to fill payout spots, the extra money gets split up evenly by the # of teams that did catch fish and is added to each places payout)
Championship : only teams that caught fish in previous events can qualify - keep the championship purse updated throughout the series on the series website so people can see what they are aiming for...it will increase interest. |
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Posts: 1023
| Well, depending on who you talk to, I may not be "nice" and at 40, not really a "kid", but I did tell people that I was open to Muskies Inc (Milwaukee Chapter) running 3-4 tournaments on Pewaukee next year.
We have our format and can tweak it as needed.
But, my grand "vision" would be to include other chapters. I'd love to get a tournament trail going in which Pewaukee is a stop, as is Waubesa or Monona, as is the Fox Chain...etc. If local chapters are willing, they can run it usuing our already created promotional material, including the rules. Could even include Hayward/Eagle River/Green Bay...etc.
And we could have a true "trail" that ends with a true Championship. Each chapter could keep the defined proceeds of their tournament and then every chapter would "win". And so would stocking efforts.
At least that is the plan...in my head. At our next Board meeting, I'll go over it in more depth and then we will probably reach out to Madison and Antioch right away to see if they are interested in hosting an event.
The absolute key to doing this as a trail is getting buy in from other chapters that are close in proximity.
Edited by vegas492 11/3/2014 3:39 PM
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Posts: 1220
| If Vegas 492 (and company) can make that happen, I will donate up to five St. Croix Legend Tournament rods as raffle prizes to give away at the rules meetings for the first 5 events. A great idea....a SE Wis./N Illinois trail. Maybe Fox Chain early and late, and Madison and Pewaukee in the middle! All to benefit Muskies Inc. Stocking--- Sweet!
(p.s. I know what I'm doing here..when my winning streak finally kicks in, I'll probably win ten in a row and be laughing all the way to the bank. It's just a matter of time!) |
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Posts: 1023
| Wow. That is very generous, Marty! Hopefully we can make it happen! |
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Posts: 52
| I like esoxaddict idea for payout , makes catching one little guy and getting paid something worthwhile .. |
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Posts: 1135
Location: NorthCentral WI | *Utilize a point system (like most tournaments and leagues) that rewards teams for larger fish caught.
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Posts: 1220
| Thanks a lot guys! I think this helped, and I think anybody watching learned "transparency" is the key (like any sort of honest dealing.) I was at Smokey's getting suckers yesterday morning, and you'd have thought it was a national musky holiday from work. Everybody was talking to me about this thread and hopeful of good things to come. I felt good about it. Also heard from the guy wanting to start a new trail around here (his name is Nate Seiburt) and he said he's heard the comments "loud and clear." I wish him good luck too! Last thought: it's going to get colder now, slippery, and dangerous...wear your PFD and keep an anchor on the deck resting on your throw cushion...be safe...catch a monster! |
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Posts: 156
Location: Oconomowoc, WI | Timely results during or after a tournament are much appreciated by those who fish or follow the tourneys. Speaking of which, what were the results from November 1st tournament on Pewaukee Lake?
As far as the "new kid" and seeking advice. Feel free to contact myself or any of the others originally involved in the original Ironman when it had a very loyal following, paid back over 100%, had a 50 inch poool, and was completely transparent where and how the money was distributed.
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Posts: 2
| In response to all of the comments in the civil discussion that has been going on: My name is Nate and some may know me from fishing the area lakes, local tourneys or maybe a friendly conversation as to how your day was in the parking lot after a long day on the water or u may not know me at all. Either way I am the guy who junk man was talking about who will be starting the new tournament trail next year. I just want to say sorry for not making a statement earlier last week but unfortunately I lost a family member and was not able to chime in. I will say that I appreciate all of the suggestions that have been made! The new trail will be call Ultimate Musky Trail or Ultimate Musky Tournament Trail I will be purchasing name this week. Guys or girls who ever will be reading this and commenting on it we all have something in common... We have a passion for musky fishing, we are competitive, or like the comradery in the tournaments we have all fished in. Oh yea who doesn't like to win some $$$$! My goal is to build the tournament to be as transparent as possible, as fun as possible, and to have as many payouts and as big of payouts as possible. I have some sponsors lined up already i just have to sit down with them and finalize a few things. And I will not stop with them so u know, if u have any suggestions for sponsors please give me your input. The reason why I say this is the more sponsors I can get the less $ that would have to come out of the winnings, I want as much in there as possible for everyone. I am going to have liability on the tournament which will have to be paid for as well as a 50" fish prize (prize tbd depends on policies) more than likely $10,000 fish. Now I already know in the state of wi the dnr does not require it but this tourney will have it. It's not a bad thing guys that everyone is protected on the water as well as myself who will be working hard to build our trail into what we all want it to be, and if it doesn't come out of your pockets what's the problem? (copy of insurance will be displayed at shows, and rules meetings). A copy of the policy for the 50" fish will be provided as well. NO MONEY WILL COME FROM U to fish for $10,000 every tourney. A copy of the payout structure will be given at awards ceremony to every boat there so everyone can see where money is going out to and will be posted on trail website. Everyone I have the drive to make a competitive fun trail and with your help we can do it together. The response I have gotten so far outside of here has been very good and hopefully it will continue to grow. I have more ideas and with yours together we should be able to eliminate any negative that could comme. Talk to you guys soon. Oh yea sorry this is so long just wanted to put my thoughts out there lol |
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Posts: 102
| What bodies of water are you looking to hold this trail on? Focusing on SE WI, or WI statewide? |
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Posts: 2
| Southeast Wisconsin at first and then working in northern Wisconsin and fox chain. And Kevin I do appreciate your offer to help in anyway we have met a couple times and I know u were a big part in the iron man and any advice I will take it |
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Posts: 102
| Could you give insight into how many events you were thinking about, dates, bodies of water, etc... |
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Posts: 102
| I emailed Nate/UMT a few weeks back to see if this series he was starting is going to happen, and the status of it. I never heard back. Anyone know if this is happening or not? |
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A civil discussion....Please!