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Location: Metro , Mille Lacs, and G. Rapids | Do most muskies over 50 inches die after being caught or is that just a rumor ? |
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Location: Smith Creek | They do. Of old age if they're released or of asphyxiation or blunt force trauma if they're kept.
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Posts: 91
Location: Metro , Mille Lacs, and G. Rapids | Even if they are properly handled and released? |
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| muskieman6 - 9/17/2014 9:01 AM
Even if they are properly handled and released?
Yes, they will still die some day, if the Lord tarries. |
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Posts: 280
| Or from delayed mortality if they are mishandled as in; kept out of water too long, held vertically, held against chest wiping off slime, laid on floor of boat, dropped in the boat, caught in water too warm or kissed before being released.... 
Edited by fins355 9/17/2014 9:13 AM
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Humorous group this morning...:)
Bottom line is most survive if handled properly. there is a percentage that die after release for seemingly little reason, but it's small enough to warrant a release every time. |
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| Well....if a human ran a 100 yard dash as fast as they could, then jumped in the water, how long could they hold their breath before bad things happen? Hmmmm. Makes you wonder. |
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Location: Twin Cities | 0% survive if you don't release them! |
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| I think more of them swim off and die than we'd like to admit. But what are 'ya gonna do? |
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| In my opinion, this is a myth perpetrated by ignorant folks that like to keep big muskies. Most survive if handled with care.
Edited by teddy b 9/17/2014 11:06 AM
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Location: Hayward, WI | There seem to be multiple examples of people catching the same 50+ more than once. Do some die, even when handled well in responsible water temps? I'm sure they do, but like the other poster said, 0% of kept fish survive.
I think most fish that weren't hooked badly, and were handled properly probably end up surviving just fine.
Edited by curleytail 9/17/2014 10:54 AM
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| I'm with Steve here (can that be right?) it's better not to joke about this stuff, too easy for it to be misinterpreted. Just plainly tell the guy that's not true. Almost all will survive with careful handling. Just as true for a 55. The single best thing you'll do for the sport is to allow another angler a shot at catching and releasing that fish. You simply can buy just as good a replica and for the same money. |
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Posts: 280
| Actually....I think esoxaddict is closer to the truth. When we say "almost all will survive" what does that really mean? In percentage many biologists put mortality possibly somewhere around 5% and maybe as high as 15-20% depending on many factors. Those who catch a lot of muskies and release all will likely kill more than those who don't catch many and yet might keep 1 in a year.
Edited by fins355 9/17/2014 12:18 PM
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Posts: 1971
| Do more 50's die than 40" ers? Probably ....But for only one solid answer over handling! , seen way too many video's people are exited want hold the fish too long, 30-40 seconds will go by quick...I tell people get her back often in my boat.. cherish the moment but, you don't need 20 pictures and someone in the boat needs to know when 30 seconds out of the water hit ..probably wont be the excited angler if its their first 50  ...get them back fast... most will live for sure
Edited by IAJustin 9/17/2014 12:26 PM
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| I think the most important part of handling is between the net and the hold. A fish dropped from a hold on the floor of the boat is almost always going to do permanent damage. This is especially important for people that haven't held a musky before. You can't just say "hey grab under the gills and hold it up" to someone that doesn't truly understand that with one wave of the tail this fish can fall out of your grip in a second. |
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Location: Smith Creek | fins355 - 9/17/2014 12:17 PM
Those who catch a lot of muskies and release all will likely kill more than those who don't catch many and yet might keep 1 in a year.
Sean Landsmen could probably confirm or deny this better than I, but I do recall at least one study that showed 100% survival rate of properly handled fish. |
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| I agree with the essoxaddict and alot of truth to it. I notice smaller fish release very well compared to larger fish. I actually lost a big one at the boat a few years ago on 4th july that came unhooked at the boat and wouldnt swim away and after sitting with it for about an hour it died. Never netted it and it was barely hooked.
If i catch a bigger fish i really try to make the release super fast and quick, but they are usually hooked so bad. I dont think there is time to waste with the bigger ones.
Edited by Slow Rollin 9/17/2014 12:42 PM
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Location: oswego, il | I like to challenge their odds a little bit. I play a little Russian roulette with the fish. Sometimes the fish wins, sometimes they lose. Myself included. I have shot myself in the head 63 times now.
my reason for musky fishing is simple. I like walleyes. Muskies eat them all. Catch a musky, flush its stomach and I just limited out in walleyes. You might have to cut out some of the bad spots on the fish but they are still mighty tasty! |
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| Flambeauski - 9/17/2014 1:27 PM
fins355 - 9/17/2014 12:17 PM
Those who catch a lot of muskies and release all will likely kill more than those who don't catch many and yet might keep 1 in a year.
Sean Landsmen could probably confirm or deny this better than I, but I do recall at least one study that showed 100% survival rate of properly handled fish.
Yeah in his study Project Noble Beast, and they were caught mostly during the summer(highest temps) and were all held out of water for 90 seconds. Including more than a few over 50. Most of us handle fish very well and I know in my boat they might be out of the water for 40 seconds tops...maybe...usually less. I would like to think survival rate of fish caught in my boat is on par with PNB. Over time obviously a couple will die but I would bet my last dollar survival rate is around 99.5 percent or higher.
Fins355 is nuts if he thinks his statement is anywhere close to accurate. Handle them with care and the majority will live. |
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Location: Sussex, NJ | I've netted the same 50.5"er for my buddy twice. Once in December and another time in May. She was handled great both times and had no problems during the release. In December she skimmed the surface a few times before she stayed under. If you properly handle them they have a good chance of survival, however things happen and fish can die. Were not going to save every fish every time thats just the way it is. The best thing we can do is handle them with proper care and hope that they survive. Aside from that its out of our hands |
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Location: WI | Simple fact is that there are more 55" fish caught and release now than ever before. The majority of those fish have been caught before. Obviously if over stressed in the process the likely hood of delayed mortality is increased. But to say that "most " big fish die after contact is false.
Five years ago a 54 was nearly mythical. Now on some of our trophy waters you here of a mid 50 class fish caught weekly. Catch and release works bottom line. |
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Posts: 280
| LOL!! Lunger50, I may be nuts....but the statement I made comes from quotes made by fishery biologist's over the years. Sean's study is one that may show a survival rate that is "unique" in opinions from other biologist's. Is it so unique to be unrealistic in the real musky fishing community? Handling certainly is a major factor in survival but there are other factors that play a large part also. Certainly "most" fish will survive C&R. To believe that 100% is achievable in most boats I think is unrealistic at best. A 95% survival still leaves a 5% mortality.
"Those who catch a lot of muskies annually and release all will likely kill more than those who don't catch many and yet might keep 1 in a year."
Yes, it's important to promote the C&R ethic. It's also important to accept the fact that C&R is not a "no kill" practice.
Edited by fins355 9/18/2014 9:32 AM
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Location: NE Wisconsin | The words repeated here are "if done properly". I have been fishing these beast for over 50 years now and have witnessed many releases including on Green Bay during the hay days when you could see 3 -9 catches and or releases going on at the same time. Also, witnessed countless releases from place of work. My estimation of witnessed releases done properly, where every thing went right is no more then 50%. If live bait was being used, "done properly" goes way down from 50%. Fish get dropped, seconds out of the water turn into minutes, 4 pics of every 34"er, when you have caught 100's come on now, vertical holds, no hook cutters used, etc. From what I have witnessed "if done properly" is not done often enough.
Edited by Johnnie 9/18/2014 10:11 AM
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| How long would you say a 50 inch muskie could be out of the water for photos with water temps say over 70 degrees? |
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| fins355 - 9/18/2014 10:14 AM
LOL!! Lunger50, I may be nuts....but the statement I made comes from quotes made by fishery biologist's over the years. Sean's study is one that may show a survival rate that is "unique" in opinions from other biologist's. Is it so unique to be unrealistic in the real musky fishing community? Handling certainly is a major factor in survival but there are other factors that play a large part also. Certainly "most" fish will survive C&R. To believe that 100% is achievable in most boats I think is unrealistic at best. A 95% survival still leaves a 5% mortality.
"Those who catch a lot of muskies annually and release all will likely kill more than those who don't catch many and yet might keep 1 in a year."
Yes, it's important to promote the C&R ethic. It's also important to accept the fact that C&R is not a "no kill" practice.
LOL all you want. In experienced hands to say that 5 of every 100 fish I catch is going to die is out to lunch.
Certainly poorly handled fish have a higher chance of not making it. I am speaking to the educated experienced muskie anglers who know how to properly handle and release a fish, which is what Sean's study was based on. What is the impact of us as educated experienced muskie anglers on the muskie population. Obviously had his study continued over the course of a few years and hundreds of fish there may have been 1 or 2 die, but certainly not 10 or 15. |
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| Lunger50...I was laughing at you calling me nuts. Not laughing at your overall post, although I think you give yourself way too much credit as an "educated experienced musky angler" and your impact on the mortality of muskies. There is plenty of evidence presented by credible biologists to indicate that 5% delayed mortality is realistic and probably low in many instances, Sean's study notwithstanding.
Edited by fins355 9/18/2014 4:46 PM
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| Fair enough, but you thinking I give myself "way to much credit", when you know nothing about me is comical.
I think you give yourself "way to much credit" as the spokesperson for all these other biologist's. Their 5 percent may be correct, taking into account all anglers regardless of experience or species released. This is muskie board, and I cited a muskie study. |
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| Love me some CPR. |
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| Lunger50... I don't think I need to know anything about you. It doesn't matter about "you" in particular. My stats were not directed at you personally but at musky anglers in general, good bad and in-between. Some really great "sticks" have agreed with the %'s I've mentioned.
I don't take any credit for being a "spokesperson" for any biologist's. They speak well enough for themselves.
It's important to take into account all musky anglers in trying to determine mortality since all anglers contribute to the mortality.
If you can C&R 100 muskies with none dying from delayed mortality......more power to you.
BUT....how would YOU know none of your fish died??
Edited by fins355 9/18/2014 5:28 PM
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Location: Elroy, Wisconsin | In my opinion hook a musky between the gills in that blood engorged area just in front of the gullet and the fish is dead period. Hook a musky and damage the eye, the fish dies period. I picked up a 54 " musky floating, very fresh. The beauty had a torn gill. I have seen small pike and muskies survive a torn gill, but not big ones.
A big fish bleeding from the lower third of the body, or from the tail in my opinion is having a severe lactic acid reaction and will not recover. There is always a chance and I release carefully, but some just float belly up after several attemps. Dead fish.
I have been doing this crazy sport for 45 years, released hundreds I know survived, but some just don't.
Your mileage may very,
Mudpupy |
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Location: Metro | Are you saying you keep musky on purpose so your precious walleye can run free? |
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| Bleeding from the tail now = a death sentence? HUH?
Blinded in one eye, dead as a door nail.. what the...
Take the opinions of this thread with a grain of salt. At the rate muskies get caught these days, if you believe some of this crap there shouldn't be any muskies left. Due to paper like cuts from line, stumped fins on the side of the boat, root canals without freezing and anti septic and the ever so deadly rock rash from swimming to close to bottom... |
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Location: Elroy, Wisconsin | Glad to know Lunger my post is a bunch of crap. With more experience, you may come to some sensible conclusions yourself.
Mudpuppy |
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Location: oswego, il | I am going to become a fish vet. I will make boat calls. I will make a fortune. |
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| The people who study this stuff for a living say that 5% - 10% mortality is the norm. I believe them.
I don't care how arrogant you are or how many fish you THINK you release successfully. The folks with little or no experience may kill a greater percentage, but they don't typically catch that many anyway. Even the best among us are likely killing more fish than we are willing to admit.
Anybody who says they have never killed one is in denial. You may THINK you're the best mf-er in the world at this, but the reality is that catching these fish kills some of them. Get over it. Cry in your beer, or pretend your catches are special and all swim away unharmed if it helps you sleep at night. But anyone with a handful of years under their belt fishing will tell you that ramming hooks through their faces and elsewhere, and dragging them to the boat to be netted and unhooked and photographed IS going to do some of them in.
If you can't accept that, you should give up fishing and take up snorkeling instead. Trade your rods for cameras ladies, you can't handle this sport.
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Location: Elroy, Wisconsin | Right on Addict.
Mudpup |
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| What kind of snorkel and fins do you guys recommend? |
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| esoxaddict - 9/18/2014 8:04 PM
The people who study this stuff for a living say that 5% - 10% mortality is the norm. I believe them.
I don't care how arrogant you are or how many fish you THINK you release successfully. The folks with little or no experience may kill a greater percentage, but they don't typically catch that many anyway. Even the best among us are likely killing more fish than we are willing to admit.
Anybody who says they have never killed one is in denial. You may THINK you're the best mf-er in the world at this, but the reality is that catching these fish kills some of them. Get over it. Cry in your beer, or pretend your catches are special and all swim away unharmed if it helps you sleep at night. But anyone with a handful of years under their belt fishing will tell you that ramming hooks through their faces and elsewhere, and dragging them to the boat to be netted and unhooked and photographed IS going to do some of them in.
If you can't accept that, you should give up fishing and take up snorkeling instead. Trade your rods for cameras ladies, you can't handle this sport.
SPOT ON!!! |
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Location: oswego, il | I know I have killed a few. I have had them die in the net lightly hooked. I have had fish horribly hooked swim off strong. Caught fish that swam off strong with gill rakers hanging free from a previous catch, pike too. Anyone want to venture a guess at how bad those.fish were bleeding?. You cannot predict which fish will live or die based on how they have been hooked or handled. I have caught fish that have been horribly handled and can tell how by their wounds and scars. I do not know what the mortality percentage is and I could only speculate as others have 5-10% seems high to me.
Edited by ToddM 9/19/2014 6:38 AM
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| Oh My Gosh!!
So 20 years expect means nothing I suppose....
I dont THINK all my fish survive, I do THINK that more than 95 in 100 do. I know for a fact I have had 2 die.
Nobodies ever caught a blind in one eye muskie. Think there is one on the Niagara that has been caught several times. I referenced the only study that I know of that spoke directly to the impact of experienced muskie anglers to the fishery. Guaranteed some of those fish bled, heck I think one was even hooked in the gills. Being an experienced muskie angler(post count on this board does not make you experienced) I believe my mortality rate is closer to that studies findings, than whatever non cited multi-faceted study this boards experienced insist are correct. |
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| ARmuskyaddict - 9/18/2014 8:54 PM
What kind of snorkel and fins do you guys recommend?
Buy the fins you can afford, and a snorkel you can't afford. Also, make sure you don't use a flash camera, or the fish will surely die. |
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| mudpuppy lsc has 1 eye muskies. they all don't die. |
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| Lungen50.....there are many studies and biologist's opinions based on decades of experience that indicate the mortlity %'s I mentioned. Of course they will vary with the angler and many differing conditions.
Many angler's believe that if their released musky "swims off strong" it will be fine and live to be caught again. Maybe, maybe not. There may be a period of time pass before a fish will succumb to effects of stress. Not all fish will die within an hour or so and not all fish will float when they die. You personally can believe whatever you like but your "belief's" won't affect the mortality of fish you release. Even "experienced angler's" will kill fish unintentionally.
Esoxaddict spelled it out very well......... |
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Location: oconomowoc, wi | can we save this topic for december thru march? i'm still practicing proper handling techniques.. (: |
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| I hope you get a LOT of practice!! |
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Location: Lake Country, Wisconsin | woodieb8 - 9/19/2014 8:18 AM
mudpuppy lsc has 1 eye muskies. they all don't die.
1 eyed muskies most certainly do not all die....not sure how you are coming to that conclusion but it is an incorrect one. Have caught more then a handful over the years
Edited by Musky Brian 9/19/2014 10:38 AM
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Location: Elroy, Wisconsin | Well Lunger I will work real hard to try and reach your level of expertease. Have patients with us old timers we don't have the benefit of all your knowledge.
Mudpuppy |
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Location: oswego, il | I have caught plenty of o e eyed blind muskies through mishandling and growths in the retina. Is it wives tales week on m1st? |
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| No wives tale Todd. It's very possible for a muskie to die from losing an eye depending on the depth of damage. Bacterial infection is one way. Possible damage to the optic nerve of the other eye will blind the fish and make it very difficult to feed. They won't all die of course but you will probably never see the ones that do succumb. |
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Location: Elroy, Wisconsin | I'm sure a few can survive with one eye in a food rich environment, but it must make it almost impossible to feed efficiently. I picked up a 49" musky several years ago, skinny as a baseball bat and obviously didn't die easy, one eye was badly damaged, the other appeared OK.
Your mileage may vary
Cohagen |
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| Ever catch a fish in water with 6 inches of visibility? A foot? Wonder how it managed to eat?
I think too many people think these fish are built like fragile china dolls. If your on that side of the fence like the two guys above I am not sure how you even justify to yourself sticking a hook in their face...
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| I seen a picture of a 53 incher caught out of lake Minnetonka that had 2 red bulbs for eyes. It was blind as could be and it was not skinny by any means. I think all they need is there lateral lines to eat, they don't need to see to eat. |
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| Lunger50...."I think too many people think these fish are built like fragile china dolls."
You may believe that [I don't] but YOUR position seems to be that as long as [your] fish is put back in the water it will be fine. That is just as innacurate as your quote above.
Gordon Pyzer who was a MNR senior manager of fisheries stated in an article about Lac Seul which became a 100% C&R fishery in the late 80's that the fishery was in decline because of an increase in fishing pressure in spite of being 100% C&R due to delayed mortality. I'm paraphrasing but that's essentially his point.
Soooo...the more you catch.....the more you kill.
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Location: Green Bay, WI | Slow Rollin - 9/18/2014 10:23 AM
How long would you say a 50 inch muskie could be out of the water for photos with water temps say over 70 degrees?
You cannot make any predictions about that, unfortunately. One 50" fish might tolerate 2-3 minutes out of the water, and be just fine...and the next succumb to a cardiac arrhythmia or not tolerate an angling-induced electrolyte imbalance (and subsequently die) after only 30 seconds or less out of the water. Although I've never read much about it in the literature, these fish are individuals--and just like other animal species, some specimens die when exposed to conditions that other members of the same species survive. So it's going to be highly variable I'll wager, and also very dependent on the baseline health status of the fish, and the stress imposed by the angling event and the unhooking.
Suffice it to say that the more oxygen in the fish's system, the better. And since they respire through their gills and their gills only work when they are in the water...leave them in the water as much as possible.
In other words...if it hurts to do that, then don't do that.
TB |
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TB
Although I've never read much about it in the literature, these fish are individuals--and just like other animal species, some specimens die when exposed to conditions that other members of the same species survive.
Great point Tom! I wish I would have said that...... That's one reason why "delayed" mortality is so hard to get a handle on. Some years back I spoke with a biologist from the John G. Shedd Aquarium in Chgo who mentioned that there may be a 2 week [or longer] window in which a fish may succumb to stress, bacterial infection or injury after being C&R. |
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Location: Smith Creek | So is the 5 to 10% that is generally accepted by biologists supported by actual tagging and tracking data or is it simply anecdotal?
I have never seen a study that tracked caught and released muskies where 5-10% died. If anyone can find it I'd love to see it. |
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| A lot of the data is mostly extrapolated from studies based on other species, such as pike, rather than muskies. That's one reason, among many others, the %'s can vary greatly. Some studies may use proper and careful handling under optimum conditions for survival. These, of course, will show what may be a lower mortality % than what actually occurs in real angling situations. I believe I have seen some studies conducted with intentionally poor handling and stressing of fish to show that % of mortality which is extremely high.
There are studies which show very low mortality and studies which show very high mortality.
The bottom line is some will die even with the best of intent. |
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Location: Alsip, IL | I think some fish are just delicate. Got a 47 a few weeks back and I'm not 100% if she made it. Out of the water for around 40 seconds total. Hooked perfectly as the hooks popped out in the net. But she gave me fits reviving. I actually jumped in the water with her and spent 45 minutes before she finally swam away very lazily staying near the surface. Water was 77.1 and the fight lasted maybe 30 seconds. I've never killed a muskie and never will intentionally. I really hope that fish did come around, but idk what else I could have done. I'm not going to stop fishing for them for fear of killing one every few seasons, when there are guys clubbing em to protect walleyes.
Edited by mecoltin123 9/22/2014 11:26 AM
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is it true...?