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Posts: 221
| I'm sure this is old news to most, but thought I would get some opinions from you all on it.
We are currently trying to start a Musky stocking program in Manitoba but this is the kinda stuff (which I feel is extremely one sided bad science) that our biologists have found and are referencing for arguments against stocking.
http://www.muskytroubles.com
White sucker populations being wiped out and Native populations taking under 200 adult walleye/year were just a couple things I found in the study to be... well... ridiculous.
Any FACTS you all can give to rebut these "studies" would greatly help our cause.
Darcy Cox
Edited by 50inchGrinch 5/15/2010 8:30 AM
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| 50inchGrinch - 5/15/2010 8:28 AM
I'm sure this is old news to most, but thought I would get some opinions from you all on it.
We are currently trying to start a Musky stocking program in Manitoba but this is the kinda stuff (which I feel is extremely one sided bad science ) that our biologists have found and are referencing for arguments against stocking.
http://www.muskytroubles.com
White sucker populations being wiped out and Native populations taking under 200 adult walleye/year were just a couple things I found in the study to be... well... ridiculous.
Any FACTS you all can give to rebut these "studies" would greatly help our cause.
Darcy Cox
Are you a biologist? If you could elaborate on your ''studies'' it would be helpful to your cause.
I love muskies just as much as the next guy, but a native fish being wiped out is never good results for the fisherie as a whole. |
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Look at the site traffic. We have more people login here in a day and a little than they have since the website went live.
One study there talks about Butternut in WI. The interpretation of the data by the 'arm chair biologist' who wrote the piece is so badly off the center it's not even worth listing why. If that's the tactic, they will lose every time the actual facts are presented. They are using 'waves on the water make the wind blow' arguments.
Predation on walleyes from largemouth bass should be a much larger concern to them. it's not good if the bass are overprotected, and that IS factual.
It's obvious Muskies do quite well with walleyes, and walleyes do quite well with muskies. Some of the best walleye water in the world is trophy muskie water as well. If walleye populations or panfish populations drop, many times the answer is:
They need to check their own freezers.
My son spent the last few weeks netting and stripping suckers for the hatchery on a couple well known muskie lakes in Oneida and Vilas. There's plenty of 'em, far as I can tell from his reports. |
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| sworrall - 5/15/2010 8:59 AM
Look at the site traffic. We have more people login here in a day and a little than they have since the website went live.
One study there talks about Butternut in WI. The interpretation of the data by the 'arm chair biologist' who wrote the piece is so badly off the center it's not even worth listing why. If that's the tactic, they will lose every time the actual facts are presented. They are using 'waves on the water make the wind blow' arguments.
Predation on walleyes from largemouth bass should be a much larger concern to them. it's not good if the bass are overprotected, and that IS factual.
It's obvious Muskies do quite well with walleyes, and walleyes do quite well with muskies. Some of the best walleye water in the world is trophy muskie water as well. If walleye populations or panfish populations drop, many times the answer is:
They need to check their own freezers.
My son spent the last few weeks netting and stripping suckers for the hatchery on a couple well known muskie lakes in Oneida and Vilas. There's plenty of 'em, far as I can tell from his reports.
That was the point I was trying to get across Steve.
Extremists on either side always hurts ''the cause'' whatever that cause maybe.
Happy fishing! |
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Posts: 221
| Thanks Steve, The bass thing was also a thought on my mind... Smallies SEEM to have had a negative effect on a Walleye infested lake near us. Big, Fat, healthy walleye were in Crowduck Lake 5+ years ago. It was either the Walleye eating themselves out of Cisco's or the bass that did it. But now, the walleye are skinny rails and the bass population has exploded... with many tankers around. Maybe the Bass, maybe not.
GUEST, no I'm not a biologist. Nothing to do with the actual process besides being an outside voice. "My studies" ...have no clue what your talking about there... maybe re-read my post to clarify. And no, a native species being wiped out isn't cool. Again, don't know why you would think I condone this from my previous post.
Darcy Cox
Edited by 50inchGrinch 5/15/2010 9:53 AM
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| Darcy,
I am Sorry. we are on the same page, I misunderstood where you were coming from. And wrote before I reread your post. I guess I saw red when that site was posted again. Every time it resurfaces they get exactly what they want.....publicity!!
Once again truly sorry. Have a great season Darcy!
now Im going fishing.
God bless. |
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Location: Musky Tackle Online, MN | Darcy,
The website you referenced was put together by a lawyer in MN who uses his connections and lawyer-speak to spread his anti-muskie agenda in MN. He is great with his words and will sound convincing to the uneducated. His newly formed Sportsman For Responsible Muskie Management is nothing more than a spin off of the No More Muskies group that he used to be a part of. After that group lost all credibility, it essentially died and morphed into SFRMM.
His Musky Troubles website is on par with the National Enquirer as far as its relevancy for anyone seeking good factual data backed by science. Check out the article published by MuskieFIRST and written by Dave Neuswanger of the WI DNR which addresses how they (Musky Troubles - aka - SFRMM) skew the facts, just as one example.
http://muskie.outdoorsfirst.com/articles/01.26.2007/1153/Balance.In...
Aaron
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Location: Musky Tackle Online, MN | Here's a good study that shows how fish species responded to muskies being stocked in MN lakes.
http://www.brainerdmuskies.com/Knapp%20Muskie%20paper08.pdf
Aaron |
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Location: On the X that marks the mucky spot | The man who authored that site is a lobbyist for the MDAA (Minnesota Darkhouse Anglers Association). That site shouldn't be used for anything except an example of how many people really would like to wipe out muskie fishing as a whole.
Try this one by our own DNR: http://www.dnr.state.mn.us/fish/muskellunge/muskiefaq.html
If you look below the map of MN on the right you can see the links to several relevant studies. If nothing else have your DNR contact MN's DNR.
Edited by Muskie Treats 5/15/2010 3:50 PM
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| Darcy hope this helps.
we fish butternut in Price county alot the problem in butternut isn't muskies eating walleye's or walleye's eating musky it's there's not enough yellow perch or white suckers to go around a few year's back they had the baitfish traps all over butternut and when we talked to the people checking them the traps had very low numbers. that's why the muskies and walleye's are small and have trouble getting big. they have a sign by the boat landing asking to harvest any legal musky under
40 inches
also around 2005 or so from memory so not sure of the year
there was a kid from university of wisconsin at wisconsin rapids or another school in southern wisconsin who did his dissertation on musky. He studied butternut from ice out to ice up and i remember they let him harvest some muskys and he didn't find one walleye in any of those musky stomachs we saw this kid over the course of the year and talked to him i wish i remebered his name is exact school or the exact year sorry my memory aint the best.
good luck |
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Location: minocqua, wi. | is turnabout "fair-play"?
Edited by jonnysled 5/15/2010 8:02 PM
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Location: Smith Creek | Nice attempt to use "facts"
Now some facts about the Butternut Lake Study.
In the early 90's Butternut had a small population of muskies and a good population of walleyes. Angler harvest pretty much decimated both. The lake association and DNR went overboard in stocking both (100,000 walleye a year for 4 or 5 years) resulting in stunted walleyes and muskies. Biologists not named Sommerfeldt estimated about 500 muskies lived in Butternut (not 1 per acre that skip "bass pro" sommerfeldt was saying) So the forage base was wiped out by the over stocking of WALLEYE which was brought on by anglers' overharvest.
Skip thought they'd have no problem netting 400 muskies for removal. They got 180. Pretty small number for a 1000 acre lake that has 1 fish per acre.
Remember when every single person who lived on the lake used to catch a limit of 20" walleyes every evening all spring and winter long? The muskies ate em all, what else could have happened to em? |
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Location: Green Bay, WI | 50inchGrinch - 5/15/2010 8:28 AM
I'm sure this is old news to most, but thought I would get some opinions from you all on it.
We are currently trying to start a Musky stocking program in Manitoba but this is the kinda stuff (which I feel is extremely one sided bad science ) that our biologists have found and are referencing for arguments against stocking.
http://www.muskytroubles.com
White sucker populations being wiped out and Native populations taking under 200 adult walleye/year were just a couple things I found in the study to be... well... ridiculous.
Any FACTS you all can give to rebut these "studies" would greatly help our cause.
Darcy Cox
Darcy,
Have you read this link:
http://files.dnr.state.mn.us/fish_wildlife/fisheries/species/muskie...
I have been the Research Director for the Titletown MI chapter in Green Bay, for the past 3-4 years. In addition, I was VP of Fisheries, Research and Youth for MI for two years, having recently resigned. I have several references that I can share with you. I haven't had the time to read through all of the information on the site you linked though, having just seen this thread for the first time tonight.
Although I am not employed as a Biologist, I am formally trained in Aquatic Biology and Fisheries Management. In addition, the current VP for Fisheries & Research (Mr. Tom Penniston) has also been formally trained in this field--and worked for several years in this field. Our MI magazine editor was employed for many years in the field of Fisheries as well.
My point here is that MI (as well as Muskies Canada) can probably help you with your efforts. Therefore I think it would be worthwhile to talk this over a bit. I have a conference tomorrow, so I cannot review your data until Tuesday. However I will do so at that time, and can call you. If you are interested, please email me your contact information and I'll see what assistance MI might be able to provide. At the very least, we can give you some published objective data regarding the success of musky stocking programs--including the GREAT success story of the re-introduction effort of the Great Lakes strain into the bay of Green Bay. Having published (peer-reviewed) literature may be very helpful to your effort; however we will need to talk more about this before I can offer something concrete.
So please drop my an email with your contact number, if you'd like to talk on the phone a bit more.
TB |
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Posts: 221
| Thanks for all the great info guys.
Just to clarify, our biologists aren't arguing for or against on the subject. The link was just something found by them and I felt needed to be refuted.
The reality of a stocking program in MB is minimal. There simply aren't many waters that would be good candidates for a program. There are a few that could be incredible though.
My opinion is that a small Tiger program on a lake where THEY ARE NEEDED is going to be the best option.
Tom I will e-mail you in few days as I'm on the water for the next two.
Edited by 50inchGrinch 5/16/2010 11:21 PM
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Location: Green Bay, WI | Sounds good. I'll look forward to the email then.
With regards to a Tiger Musky program, maybe we can get you in touch with some of the MI guys out in Washington State, as they are having success with such stocking out there. Also, you might try contacting Sorno on this site--I believe he still works directly with Tigers Muskies.
TB |
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| I'm glad Darcy started this post and thanks for the information everyone. We, the Canadian Esox Association, have been fundraising to start a musky stocking program in Manitoba (so far we have $10,000). A biologist with the Department of Natural Resources came to one of our meetings and gave an excellent summary of the history of the attempts to stock musky in Manitoba. I caught the Manitoba record musky (50.5 inches) in 1985 out of one of these stocked lakes. Attempts, thus far, have been unsuccessful but I get the impression that the attempts were half-hearted.
We wrote a formal letter to the Department of Natural Resources notifying them of our goal to start a musky stocking program and they asked us to complete a detailed proposal that is several pages long and will cost a lot of time and money to hire experts to complete, so it is difficult for us to get the program off the ground.
Some negative responses to the idea have been...attempts so far have been unsuccessful, Ontario has a great musky fishery so why should we have one in Manitoba, it is going to cost too much money and be a waste of money, the fear of VHS, introducing a top of the food chain predator could have a detrimental effect on existing fish populations.
While we continue our fundraising, I have been gathering articles and studies in preparation for when we begin our proposal writing. The information will be located on our new website (anticipated launch is June). The more documentation and allies that we have, the better.
Mark Ruml
Promotions Director
Canadian Esox Association |
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Location: On the X that marks the mucky spot | Mark,
Contact me, I have access to resources that could help you to get this off the ground.
[email protected]
Shawn Kellett |
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| Steve we all know the leaves in the trees make the wind blow LOL, its my favorite part of going to meet people when they have been poisoned by the anti-Muskie anti-fishing crowd, its there little Musky Troubles summaries they all have. The best part is the Jim Joneses never have the Kool-Aid front of them but all those they have coerced and manipulated into Hale Bop Comet riders have the entire website on paper.
This info is about as credible and factual as a Bernie Madoff earnings quarterly transcript, I would guess that CAPS LOCK GUEST already knows what it is and how its used.
He's just looking for new tricks from an old hat.
"If a thousand old beliefs were ruined in our march to truth we must still march on." --Stopford Brooke
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| Thanks Shawn. I will definately contact you. |
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Muskies are bad...