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Posts: 69
Location: Royalton, MN | I'm referring to casts with no visible follow. Are there any lures or conditions where you feel you'd be better off continuing to chunk and wind rather than do a figure-8 after each cast? |
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Posts: 4269
Location: Ashland WI | BassThumb - 10/3/2019 12:30 PM
I'm referring to casts with no visible follow. Are there any lures or conditions where you feel you'd be better off continuing to chunk and wind rather than do a figure-8 after each cast?
Almost never. Maybe with a slow retrieve in clear water, but even then I have still have fish show up late. |
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Posts: 20181
Location: oswego, il | No. I have had fish blast a bait out of nowhere boat side on a clear day in deep clear water. |
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Posts: 1971
| Yes a full figure 8 can be a complete waste of time in some conditions where you and the fish can see very well.. Burning blades on a 3’ Sand bite in very clear water ..90% of fish caught aren’t in the 8 anyway and furthermore I can see them coming from a mile away ..full 8 is complete waste of time, if you are paying attention. wtd on super clear water. Again chance to convert boatside is low and my time and odds are better to make the next cast ...however low light , rain, obviously dark ..Heavy wind ... full 8 even for ultra clear water |
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Posts: 2280
Location: Chisholm, MN | There really shouldn't be an excuse, but of course I do it now and then. |
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Posts: 1191
| Sometimes fish will be under the boat, and if you don't at least do an L into a big circle, you will never know they were there. Learned the hard way, and have benefited from that lesson, as well. |
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Posts: 35
| BassThumb - 10/3/2019 12:30 PM
I'm referring to casts with no visible follow. Are there any lures or conditions where you feel you'd be better off continuing to chunk and wind rather than do a figure-8 after each cast?
Most places I fish. Yes. Almost never waste my time. |
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Posts: 483
Location: Northern Illinois | TCESOX - 10/3/2019 6:13 PM
Sometimes fish will be under the boat, and if you don't at least do an L into a big circle, you will never know they were there. Learned the hard way, and have benefited from that lesson, as well.
This will happen at least a couple times a season almost always when there are 2-3 guys in the boat. |
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Posts: 100
| RLSea - 10/3/2019 8:00 PM
TCESOX - 10/3/2019 6:13 PM
Sometimes fish will be under the boat, and if you don't at least do an L into a big circle, you will never know they were there. Learned the hard way, and have benefited from that lesson, as well.
This will happen at least a couple times a season almost always when there are 2-3 guys in the boat.
Yes, sometimes the fish are coming off the deep side, or from right underneath the boat. No follow per se, but your 8 will trigger a fish that was laying nearby. I've caught fish just figure eighting without casting in super active areas. |
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Posts: 156
Location: Alexandria, MN | I usually do an L turn or even a loop for possible late-comers. However, rather than do a full 8 - especially in clear water - I feel like I'm more productive covering more water with another cast. |
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Posts: 307
| Yes. IAjustin nailed it IMO. Just need to make sure a ‘lazy habit’ doesn’t develop. |
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| TCESOX - 10/3/2019 7:13 PM Sometimes fish will be under the boat, and if you don't at least do an L into a big circle, you will never know they were there. Learned the hard way, and have benefited from that lesson, as well. THIS!
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Posts: 8729
| I think the ones that come from under the boat were late arrivals, or fish that your boat partners didn't see and went on to keep casting. I've only had that happen a few times, and it was always under conditions where it was very difficult to see.
If I'm fishing in dark/stained water, heavy chop, low light conditions, etc. I always do a couple 8's, because you just never know. Clear water/flat sunny day, sometimes you can see your lure on the entire cast. If there was a fish, you'd have seen it a long time ago. Cases like that I'll do half a turn in case one "shows up", but I think you're better off throwing the next cast instead of doing 3-4 figure 8's for a fish that's just not there. |
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Posts: 8729
| (double post)
Edited by esoxaddict 10/4/2019 11:44 AM
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Posts: 390
| I will skip the 8 only on a super clear body of water I fish early spring and only in shallow water. Have been surprised a few other times even when I though I would see every follow.
The only other time is with a wtd topwater, L turn normally only. |
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| i never figure 8 after every cast,just a L and nothing at all when i can see the bottom out of 20f of water.imo it's just common sense |
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Posts: 602
Location: Michigan | I do a figure 8 after every cast. You just don't know if a fish is under the boat or lurking far beneath a bait and the change of direction can trigger it. There are also triggers one can do before getting to the figure 8 which should draw fish out of hiding as well. I've had fish come out of nowhere in really dirty water and really clear water (25'+) to smash a bait. Just because you can't see them doesn't mean they can't see the bait. |
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Posts: 1937
Location: Black Creek, WI | I never figure 8 a suick. Will give the lure extra hang time at boatside when using a crankbait or glider or any lure with a pause in its cadence. Bucktails and rubber are easier and more effective to figure8 and even those I'm just giving an extended L turn before rippin' off another cast if nothing shows by then. Night time is the only time that I will do a full hearted figure 8 after every cast. |
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Location: Contrarian Island | as others, I definitely don't do one every cast.. water clarity and depth are main factors... usually do an L but sometimes if burning bucktails don't even do that...
Edited by BNelson 10/7/2019 1:32 PM
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Posts: 307
| Back in the day I often fished with a well known Muskie guy who rarely 8ed at all. At most an ‘L’ that was part of a continuous motion into the next cast.He knew the math on the average number of casts to see/boat a fish and said the ‘math’ ruled out 8ing..The math said more casts was the way to go. With him,the days were long and the number of casts large. Only breaks for ANY reason was between spots.
If you want numbers over enjoyment,i’d consider that route. |
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Posts: 1937
Location: Black Creek, WI | Including a full figure8 after every cast is "enjoyment"? Huh. Sounds like a sore back to me. lol. How on earth do you do it DickP? |
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Posts: 307
|  Poorly worded response on my part J.'Relaxed' may have been a better word.His method was intense overall and no '8' was just a part of it.
Fun at times if they were going but didn't leave me time to smell the roses.I remember a day or 2 with you that got pretty intense-in a good way.
By the way,age doesn't improve the '8' any.Two different young guys in my boat this year independently started describing short turn,cut off type 8s as 'Pearson 8s'.Sadly in both cases after seeing me cut off 50s.Soon will need 12 ft rods.
Edited by dickP 10/9/2019 5:45 AM
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Posts: 1937
Location: Black Creek, WI | Ah yes... the Fun Factor. To me, there is no better way to catch a musky than on the Figure8. Up close and personal. But, to incorporate one into every cast can be challenging. Need to find that fountain of youth.... or some more patience. lol. |
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Posts: 386
| I do it out of lazinessiness, and then a low, slow fish shows up when I've already sent my bait into the stratosphere... And then I do my full figure eight until I get lazy again after 12 hours of no follows.
Edited by FlyPiker 10/9/2019 8:55 AM
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Posts: 100
| I fished with a very well know and respected guide this summer who has been tracking fish caught at boat side. His data showed that half the fish caught on the figure 8 came out of nowhere and were not seen. To me that means that you losing fish that you could otherwise catch if you aren't doing a boatside manoeuvre. Plainly stated, if you like catching less fish, don't do an figure 8. |
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Posts: 90
| Gregoire - 10/10/2019 5:19 PM
I fished with a very well know and respected guide this summer who has been tracking fish caught at boat side. His data showed that half the fish caught on the figure 8 came out of nowhere and were not seen. To me that means that you losing fish that you could otherwise catch if you aren't doing a boatside manoeuvre. Plainly stated, if you like catching less fish, don't do an figure 8.
Sounds harsh, this is true. I've witnessed a lot of fish not caught by boat partners because they don't figure eight, pretty frustrating. If I can't show them a fish caught on the 8, I tell them to watch a few of the countless YouTube videos. |
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Posts: 1937
Location: Black Creek, WI | OK. So the advocates of doing an 8 after every cast. How long is long enough? You gotta call it quits and make another cast at some point. If you do 1 full 8 and then as you pull your lure from the water a fish shows... should you have done 2? If you did two figure 8's and then a fish shows as you pull the lure to make a cast, should you have done 3? A late arrival will always be a late arrival. To me, you need to consider your presentation (ambush vs chase), location, and overall return on your investment (ROI). Its not black and white. And don't forget, like DickP stated, part of the RETURN on your investment is your enjoyment and not necessarily your success at getting a bite. |
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Posts: 599
Location: Duluth | I do it every cast because I have been surprised and 80% of my musky have been caught on the 8.
Fish often with a guide on Vermilion, the number 1 thing he comments on when he sees another musky boat is if they 8 after every cast and if they are doing tourists turns. If they are guilty of either then he has no problem rolling into the spot because "they aren't going to catch an active fish anyway"
My experience and the experience of much better musky fisherman than myself is enough for me to do a nice wide 8 every cast. If one comes late, well then I'll do two 8's next time or extend it, its also a great indicator of mood. |
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Posts: 602
Location: Michigan | jlong - 10/11/2019 9:58 AM
OK. So the advocates of doing an 8 after every cast. How long is long enough? You gotta call it quits and make another cast at some point. If you do 1 full 8 and then as you pull your lure from the water a fish shows... should you have done 2? If you did two figure 8's and then a fish shows as you pull the lure to make a cast, should you have done 3? A late arrival will always be a late arrival. To me, you need to consider your presentation (ambush vs chase), location, and overall return on your investment (ROI). Its not black and white. And don't forget, like DickP stated, part of the RETURN on your investment is your enjoyment and not necessarily your success at getting a bite.
I just do 1 figure 8 as a trigger for any fish which may be under the boat or out of sight below the bait. I'm not looking to trigger any lazy followers as they are just that, lazy. I'm worried about the ones coming up from 20' similar to this video - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4xLvmAnKw3g
I'll also do a figure 8 in dirtier water to make sure I'm not missing a somewhat active follow as I'm hoping I'll see the fish's side flash as it turns with the bait in the 8.
Will I catch more fish if I don't figure 8 and make 200 more casts throughout the day? Possibly. However, I really hate seeing a fish looking for a bait to eat boatside after someone pulled their bait out of the water too early. |
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Posts: 8729
| That's a cool video! Illustrates exactly why you do figure 8's when fishing deep/low visibility, etc. I had an instance a while back where I abandoned a figure 8 to make the "perfect" cast across the tip of a point - spot on the spot kind of deal that I would have missed had I decided to do a few 8's. 3 cranks of the handle and *pow* 45"er. Not saying I wouldn't have caught that fish if we drifted another 30 ft., but there's an instance one in the bag is better than one that might have showed up late.
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Posts: 69
Location: Royalton, MN | I'm glad I asked the question! There are a lot of very interesting and contrasting opinions and experiences here.
The reason I ask is because in the two months I've been musky fishing, I have caught six fish and had one sickening miss from a tank that inhaled the bait, and all came on the cast. All the while I've been doing big, wide figure-8s with long rods after every cast. Only once have I had a follower appear to even notice the 8 and take a swipe at it, and that was from a dink.
This last trip I only did occasional 8s and had three follows on a lake I've never seen a fish before in a few prior trips, Lake Shamineau. I probably casted one and half times as much as when I was doing 8s after every cast. It made me think.
I would really like to know more about the guide on Vermilion who jumps people's spots if the are doing 8s after every cast or just "tourist turns". What's his rationale and how does he chose when to do figure-8s vs when not to? |
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Posts: 100
| Making fewer casts, and placing them in the right spot is more important then getting as many casts in as you can. Learning how to cast accurately, and get the lure where you want it every time, is just as important as the figure 8 in my opinion. I remember many years ago my friend was hunting an active fish on LOTW and had a less experienced partner in the boat. He let the less experienced angler take the lead, but he couldn't get the cast to the right spot. After multiple missed casts my buddy put a cast in the right spot, got the fish to follow and eat on the 8.
Bottom line, Learn to do all of these things to put more fish in the bag:
Boat control to get your bait in the right spot
Learn to make accurate casts to get the bait in front of the fish
Do an 8 every time, watching closely at the direction change, as that is when the fish will probably show itself.
In clear water I will sometimes only do one turn of the 8, but I will carefully watch the lure on the rise to the boat before the 8. In murky water, a full 8 is needed.
If I can see a following fish before it sees the boat, I like my chances of putting it in the bag.
If you do not do a boat side direction change after every cast, you are missing an opportunity to catch fish. |
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Posts: 1971
| Big difference between direction change and a figure 8 after every cast I couldn’t make the next cast with out doing a L ...muscle memory- ha! |
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Posts: 100
| IAJustin - 10/17/2019 12:59 PM
Big difference between direction change and a figure 8 after every cast I couldn’t make the next cast with out doing a L ...muscle memory- ha!
In my mind they are the same thing. I have muscle memory to do the figure 8, some use L turn into a loop or circle. They are both effective, and one of them should be performed after every cast. |
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Posts: 599
Location: Duluth | BassThumb - 10/14/2019 8:35 AM
I would really like to know more about the guide on Vermilion who jumps people's spots if the are doing 8s after every cast or just "tourist turns". What's his rationale and how does he chose when to do figure-8s vs when not to?
His rationale is always, always, always 8. If you aren't doing them out there you're not going to get many shots-Fish that follow someone who doesn't 8 or does garbage 8's never got hooks in em but are still likely hungry and can be had by a better fisherman.
Nice wide turns, some speed change on the straight. The tourists turns thing comes from the fact that a turn on the 8 has to be large enough for the fish to adjust (this is mainly for blades). Especially on Vermilion those big piggies dont like a sharp turn in the 8. |
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Posts: 759
Location: Ames, Iowa | Suick is my number 1 follow bait. Number 1 follow bait for big fish. I always figure 8 with a Suick. BTW, I have read others say they don't figure 8 topwaters. I always figure 8 topwaters. The reason to throw a topwater is to get hit on top. I believe a fish is always behind my topwater near the surface, so why not do the 8. |
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Posts: 1971
| Because if you pay attention there are conditions it’s a complete waste of time...that would be why! |
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Posts: 759
Location: Ames, Iowa | I'm on Leech, and sometimes the water isn't very clear with algae. Another thing is wind and the break up it causes on the water- hard to see through the water even with glasses. Also, when I find great cabbage, I again assume a fish in on that piece of cabbage. Is it a full 8 all of the time? No- sometimes just a J when I get disenchanted and lazy. |
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Posts: 1971
| Are there conditions you should do more than one full 8 when you didn’t see a follow? ..absolutely yes!!... new topic? |
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Are There Lures/Conditions Where You Don't Figure-8 After Every Cast?