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Location: Buffalo, NY | I've seen a ton of discussion from the Midwest about Musky eating all the Walleye.
I thought it would be appropriate to share a member of the Niagara Musky Association's youtube channel. Jim K is a scuba diver, and a musky fisherman. Has a ton of really neat videos of his dives along the drifts I always fish. I've seen his dive flag, him, or his boat on many occasions as i've fished the Upper Niagara.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oRIE5nCdES8
Worth a look at all his Musky videos, this one in particular discusses walleye interaction. |
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| Neat video |
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Location: Niagara on the Lake, ON | Jim K has awesome vids. Love them |
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Location: oswego, il | He asked during the video if this only happened on the Niagara. No, i have seen musky and walleye sharing the same weed pocket on the madison chain. |
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Location: mercer wi | I always read that muskis where ruthless walleye kills. In fact they only eat 7.26% of the walleyes they kill. The rest they leave dead on the bottom of the lake. They kill for the fun of it. |
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| Ive done plenty of diving on GB and I have seen this many times. The other thing I have noticed is neither walleye or musky/pike spook when I swim close to them, they are curious which suggests larger walleyes don't have the prey response which tells me we are the only thing on or in the water that feeds on them. |
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| I came to think they eat when they eat. Pretend the walleye is your bait |
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Location: oswego, il | Behavior and vulnerability play a big role. Prey acts like prey, predators act like predators. Predators on the end of your line act vulnerable. |
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Posts: 267
| IMVHO, Muskie TV personalities need to quit telling the audience that Muskies are feeding on walleyes. And tackle manufacturers need to quit making "walleye" patterns. Call it sucker or brown perch or something. |
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| Smell_Esox - 4/6/2018 7:50 AM
IMVHO, Muskie TV personalities need to quit telling the audience that Muskies are feeding on walleyes. And tackle manufacturers need to quit making "walleye" patterns. Call it sucker or brown perch or something.
I would agree with you...if the cat wasnt already out of the bag. |
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Location: oswego, il | Bass and trout patterns too. We as responsible musky fisherpeople need to buy baits in non fish patterns only. Maybe create some sort of universal symbol for businesses who cater to this community can display that says, we are musky but we are sympathetic to the plight of the other species who have to cohabitate. |
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| Now we are assuming Muskies (all fish for that matter) can distinguish other species and colors. Maybe they just recognize a blob and not the blob being a Bass, Walleye, Perch. Just a blob of differing sizes. Same goes for color. Maybe it's just different shades and not that they can tell Red from Green? |
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Location: oswego, il | Brian Hoffies - 4/6/2018 12:18 PM
Now we are assuming Muskies (all fish for that matter) can distinguish other species and colors. Maybe they just recognize a blob and not the blob being a Bass, Walleye, Perch. Just a blob of differing sizes. Same goes for color. Maybe it's just different shades and not that they can tell Red from Green?
No we are saying fish understand behavior within their environment. |
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Location: SE Wisc | I will make some t-shirts, FISH LIVES MATTER |
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| If they had half of the cognitive abilities we give them credit for, we would never be able to catch them.... |
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| upnortdave - 4/5/2018 7:39 PM
I always read that muskis where ruthless walleye kills. In fact they only eat 7.26% of the walleyes they kill. The rest they leave dead on the bottom of the lake. They kill for the fun of it.
I eat 100% of the walleyes I kill. I wonder how many are left dead by the water wolves? |
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Posts: 343
| I find it hard to believe that muskies would expend the energy necessary to catch and kill for the fun of it. They might attack some that manage to escape and later die but it makes no sense from a survival standpoint, for them to waste that much energy with no caloric gain. |
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| I've had muskies, walleye, and smallmouth bass in fish tanks. The smallmouth kill everything else in the tank, including fish they have no intention on eating. They were very territorial. As long as the muskies were kept fed, they wanted nothing to do with the walleyes in the tank with them. |
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| trust me they will know when it's time to leave the spot,i have seen a lot of pike sharing bass,bluegill spot but once they fill some strange vibration they disappear really fast.i've caught lot's of musky during walleye trolling,they share same weed line and at some time of the year same depth too |
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Location: Aurora | whynot - 4/12/2018 1:10 PM
I've had muskies, walleye, and smallmouth bass in fish tanks. The smallmouth kill everything else in the tank, including fish they have no intention on eating. They were very territorial. As long as the muskies were kept fed, they wanted nothing to do with the walleyes in the tank with them.
X2 on this.
The Smallmouth i had didn't even like having things like heaters and filters in the tank with them. Dug up everything and brokeit all. Even nastier than African Cichlids. |
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| ToddM - 4/5/2018 6:43 PM
He asked during the video if this only happened on the Niagara. No, i have seen musky and walleye sharing the same weed pocket on the madison chain.
I have seen 5 Muskies and 9 walleyes sharing the same 20 yard circle of weeds on pelican lake MN, was super odd but the only thing that bothered with of them was us... |
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| ToddM - 4/6/2018 6:39 AM
Behavior and vulnerability play a big role. Prey acts like prey, predators act like predators. Predators on the end of your line act vulnerable.
I like how we are on the same page today, super evedent to me that a fish is hooked is a fish that is in distress and vulnerable because it is exerting so much energy but not necessarily going fast and they can feel the spazzing out. |
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Posts: 1636
| Muskies hit struggling Walleye and Bass for the same reason they will hit a struggling Muskie their own size...
Struggling fish give up their location...
Struggling fish might be unhealthy and can take up valuable resources other, healthy fish can use...
They are regulating... not feeding. |
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| Reelwise - 4/13/2018 3:29 AM
Muskies hit struggling Walleye and Bass for the same reason they will hit a struggling Muskie their own size...
Struggling fish give up their location...
Struggling fish might be unhealthy and can take up valuable resources other, healthy fish can use...
They are regulating... not feeding.
I don't buy that argument. There is no biological reason for a predatory fish to consume something that is sick and possibly dying. Fleeing? Yes. Why does the liveliest sucker get eaten and the ones that just sit there get stared at for 10 minutes or more? |
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| Maybe unhealthy was not the correct word to use... wounded or injured would be better.
So, you are telling me that a 40" Muskie was trying to eat another 40" Muskie? I do not think so... I believe it was trying to kill it.
To each their own... but, I think I have seen enough to believe what I wrote. Whether it is right or wrong... there is evidence of this.
Edited by Reelwise 4/14/2018 5:24 AM
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| I'm also unsure how you can compare a lethargic sucker to a fighting fish on the end of the line... pretty sure a fighting gamefish on the end of the line is usually more erratic than even the liveliest suckers on a quickstrike rig. |
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| Do some Muskies eat struggling fish, because it is an easy meal? I'm sure they do. Bass do this. But, I also believe Muskies will hit a struggling fish to simply put an end to what is going on. Naturally... I believe this is also a trigger related to keeping a good and healthy balance when it comes to the fish population as well as a territorial instinct. Muskies in smaller lakes display this behavior much more than in larger lakes... in my experiences.
Edited by Reelwise 4/14/2018 5:32 AM
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| esoxaddict - 4/13/2018 11:21
I don't buy that argument. There is no biological reason for a predatory fish to consume something that is sick and possibly dying. Fleeing? Yes. Why does the liveliest sucker get eaten and the ones that just sit there get stared at for 10 minutes or more?
Yes there is a “biological” reason- because a dying fish is an easy meal. Guaranteed that muskies do not read fish consumption advisories, and I’m pretty sure their pea brain does not understand pathogens or communicable diseases  But I don’t think this has been studied, so we’ll leave that door open a crack I guess.
But something that their brains do FOR SURE is have different activity levels. Sometimes you catch them on bucktails, sometimes only the guy jigging for walleyes gets em. Sometimes muskies eat strong healthy prey, sometimes they eat dead bait laid on the bottom. So I’m guessing they sometimes eat weak or sick ones, somewhere between healthy and dead.
The liveliest sucker gets eaten because most of the time muskies are not hungry, and struggling prey trips their trigger anyway. A hungry musky will eat your lazy sucker in a heartbeat. |
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Location: Michigan U.P. | Cisco, my wife made me a "Musky Lives Matter" shirt.
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 20180414_092459-640x360.jpg (58KB - 437 downloads)
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| esoxaddict - 4/13/2018 12:21 PM
Why does the liveliest sucker get eaten and the ones that just sit there get stared at for 10 minutes or more?
Difference is... the Muskie is probably in a feeding mode when it hits a sucker. When a gamefish is struggling near a Muskie... instinctive, stimulative triggers unrelated to feeding most likely take over. |
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| Reelwise - 4/13/2018 3:29 AM
Muskies hit struggling Walleye and Bass for the same reason they will hit a struggling Muskie their own size...
Struggling fish give up their location...
Struggling fish might be unhealthy and can take up valuable resources other, healthy fish can use...
They are regulating... not feeding.
yes |
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Location: Ashland WI | I wish they would "regulate" a bit more often when I go fishing... |
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Reelwise - 4/13/2018 3:29 AM
Muskies hit struggling Walleye and Bass for the same reason they will hit a struggling Muskie their own size...
Struggling fish give up their location...
Struggling fish might be unhealthy and can take up valuable resources other, healthy fish can use...
They are regulating... not feeding.
Most sick, wounded (or whatever) fish will never get consumed by any other fish. Has to do with evolution, it's bad for a healthy fish to eat a sick one. REALLY was evident in my big fish tanks. |
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| sworrall - 4/14/2018 10:09 PM Reelwise - 4/13/2018 3:29 AM Muskies hit struggling Walleye and Bass for the same reason they will hit a struggling Muskie their own size... Struggling fish give up their location... Struggling fish might be unhealthy and can take up valuable resources other, healthy fish can use... They are regulating... not feeding. Most sick, wounded (or whatever ) fish will never get consumed by any other fish. Has to do with evolution, it's bad for a healthy fish to eat a sick one. REALLY was evident in my big fish tanks.
You must have missed my post where I said maybe unhealthy was the wrong word. A struggling fish that has been injured isn't always "unhealthy..." but, it is a sign of weakness that can lead to being unhealthy or even death... so any resources it takes up from the time of being injured to the time of death would be a waste. Nature has a funny way of programming certain organisms to take care of things.
Edited by Reelwise 4/14/2018 9:37 PM
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| When I was a kid... I caught a Gopher Snake. I decided to get an aquarium and keep it. Might not be the most humane thing... but, I was a kid and I rescued the snake from being killed. I have caught hundreds of different kinds of snakes... and only kept one. I ended up releasing it not long after.
I put three mice in the tank. The snake ate one... then ate another right after. It did not eat the third mouse. After a month went by... the snake did not eat the third mouse. I ended up getting another mouse and put it in the tank. The snake instantly ate it. Another month went by and the snake did not eat the original third mouse. I put another mouse in the tank... and it ate it right away.
Did the snake eat the new mice out of hunger? Probably. But, those other mice also acted erratic and were new to the snakes home... and I'm sure were seen as a possible threat. If the snake was hungry... it was just as hungry while only being with the original third mouse... but, it did not eat it.
The original, third mouse posed no threat to the snake and was not taking too much of the resource (water)... just as normal behaving gamefish that spend a lot of time in the same area as a Muskie poses no threat (they generally feed on different items) - and are usually left alone. As soon as a new fish enters the area and shows signs of discomfort or begins acting erratic... that fish can become toast. Those new or erratic fish that show signs of weakness could disrupt things or take up valuable resources that would be better used by the Muskie or the healthy fish that keep the system in check.
Just something to think about...
Edited by Reelwise 4/14/2018 10:05 PM
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| Forgot to mention... the snake also ate a Lizard over the third mouse. For some reason I thought it wouldn't and I would be able to keep a lizard with the snake.
Who would have thought a snake could become friends with a mouse? The mouse would actually lay on top of the snake and sleep. Pretty wild.  |
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| Just want to throw it out there that biologists have shown that most Bass act like they can not resist eating a dying/falling minnow... because, they eat the crap out of them.
Sorry for the string of posts... |
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Reelwise - 4/14/2018 9:29 PM
sworrall - 4/14/2018 10:09 PM Reelwise - 4/13/2018 3:29 AM Muskies hit struggling Walleye and Bass for the same reason they will hit a struggling Muskie their own size... Struggling fish give up their location... Struggling fish might be unhealthy and can take up valuable resources other, healthy fish can use... They are regulating... not feeding. Most sick, wounded (or whatever ) fish will never get consumed by any other fish. Has to do with evolution, it's bad for a healthy fish to eat a sick one. REALLY was evident in my big fish tanks. You must have missed my post where I said maybe unhealthy was the wrong word. A struggling fish that has been injured isn't always "unhealthy..." but, it is a sign of weakness that can lead to being unhealthy or even death... so any resources it takes up from the time of being injured to the time of death would be a waste. Nature has a funny way of programming certain organisms to take care of things.
You would be amazed how sick and erratically swimming fish are rejected by healthy fish. Our tanks had several different game fish over the years, and when adding minnows, the unhealthy, erratically swimming ones simply died in the tank, and the healthy ones were consumed. That's an interesting theory on 'regulating', any resources I can read about it? |
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| Reelwise - 4/14/2018 10:02 PM
Forgot to mention... the snake also ate a Lizard over the third mouse. For some reason I thought it wouldn't and I would be able to keep a lizard with the snake.
Who would have thought a snake could become friends with a mouse? The mouse would actually lay on top of the snake and sleep. Pretty wild. :)
That snake & mouse story is amazing! Really wonder what vibe that mouse gave off???
The “sick erratic” vs. “injured erratic” fish apparently needs to be clarified. “Injured” erratic, such as a hooked fish being fought to the boat or the action we try to impart on many of our lures, gets eaten like crazy. I think we can all agree on that. And so does “ dying erratic” - a fish (or lure) that is slowly sinking - gets eaten quickly and A LOT. Is it because it looks “dying”?
But a “sick” fish? That is different. Do fish sense this? and avoid eating it? Yes I think they do, contrary to my previous and my other theories related to their pea brain ; )
Fascinating.
There is also contradictory scientific research about predators preferentially selecting sick prey. Different studies’ results showing that they do, and that they don’t. |
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| Yes... I believe there is a difference between a healthy fish getting stunned and acting erratic vs a fish acting erratic that has been hurt and sick for a while.Anyone ever use Bluegill for bait, for Bass? Most of the time... if you get the bait in the right spot... a Bass will eat a newly hooked, erratic acting Bluegill right away. The Bluegills usually do not last very long when doing this... and the longer you go without catching a Bass... the less chance you have of catching one with that Bluegill - regardless of if you put it in front of a new Bass or not. So, Steve... you are right... the sicker and weaker a fish gets - the less chance it has of being eaten... with a chance of not being eaten at all. It is usually the fresh fish that show signs of weakness that get eaten.
Edited by Reelwise 4/15/2018 2:14 PM
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Confusing weakness with agitation? Moving suddenly and rapidly without a trajectory under the water is bad. Gets the transgressor eaten pretty regularly. Weak, injured, sick, those fish don't move that way and don't elicit as much of a response from predators. Note that when NOT hooked, fish don't act that way. Traffic accidents and collisions don't happen underwater much either. A predator that hits a free swimming 'gill, then spins on it and eats it when it's doing the death spin already committed. Weak might be the wrong description, maybe. |
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| Being agitated could lead to weakness... which is the point. Agitation can be a sign of weakness.
Apparently you disagree... or at least you believe you have found flaws in the idea - which is fine. But, there are plenty of things that have happened and do happen to support this "theory."
Feel free to continue to try and debunk it... but, I would love to read your reasons for why predatory fish respond to struggling fish on the end of the line the way they do. With that being said... I believe Largemouth Bass respond for a different reason than Muskies... along with similar reasons.
Edited by Reelwise 4/15/2018 2:41 PM
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| Simply put, a weak/sick fish could very well be succumbing to a bacterial condition, a virus, or possibly something parasitic. It's gone bad. You don't want to eat it. A struggling fish on the end of the line exhibits the same behavior as a fish trying to avoid being eaten. That's a target. |
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| Most fish that have been messed up or sick for a long period of time do not get eaten... I agree. I mentioned that with the Bluegill for bait example.
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| I was fishing a river last year and passed a sick sucker floating on its side, every now and then it would make a feeble attempt to swim. After about five minutes the current carried it about 15 feet from me and it disappeared in a big splash. The muskie that took it didn't care that it was sick.
I also had a fish tank with a catfish and Oscar in it, every now and then I would dump a bag of guppies in it. The obviously sick ones disappeared just as fast as the healthy ones.
Digestive systems are evolved to deal with "unhealthy" food, especially with wild creatures.
Tim |
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| Kill,kill,kill
Don't believe muskies just kill for sport,,200 lb guys drive Cadillac escalade s to South Dakota and shoot $1500 guns with $700 scopes and magnum loads just to watch prairie dogs blow apart and never get an ounce of meat,,it's fun to kill no matter how much brain tissue present. |
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Location: Elko - Lake Vermilion | happy hooker - 4/17/2018 7:00 PM
Kill,kill,kill
Don't believe muskies just kill for sport,,200 lb guys drive Cadillac escalade s to South Dakota and shoot $1500 guns with $700 scopes and magnum loads just to watch prairie dogs blow apart and never get an ounce of meat,,it's fun to kill no matter how much brain tissue present.
Shusssh.... Don't mention the evil guns that Kill. people will get offended.
Seriously, An AR would be a fun gun to shoot those little Doggies with and you could actually have a good meal for the Fam. afterwards.
Hot Dogs, Fresh from the Prairie kind ... Mmmmm.. Taste like Chicken. |
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| Nobody is talking about AR's anymore... just Muskies with long razor teeth that sit under docks  |
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Reelwise - 4/15/2018 2:36 PM
Being agitated could lead to weakness... which is the point. Agitation can be a sign of weakness.
Apparently you disagree... or at least you believe you have found flaws in the idea - which is fine. But, there are plenty of things that have happened and do happen to support this "theory."
Feel free to continue to try and debunk it... but, I would love to read your reasons for why predatory fish respond to struggling fish on the end of the line the way they do. With that being said... I believe Largemouth Bass respond for a different reason than Muskies... along with similar reasons.
What?
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ag·i·ta·tion
?aj?'taSH(?)n/
noun
noun: agitation
1.
a state of anxiety or nervous excitement.
"she was wringing her hands in agitation"
the action of arousing public concern about an issue and pressing for action on it.
plural noun: agitations
"widespread agitation for social reform"
2.
the action of briskly stirring or disturbing something, especially a liquid.
weak·ness
'wekn?s/
noun
noun: weakness
the state or condition of lacking strength.
"the country's weakness in international dealings"
synonyms: frailty, feebleness, enfeeblement, fragility, delicacy; infirmity, sickness, sickliness, debility, incapacity, impotence, indisposition, decrepitude, vulnerability
"with old age came weakness"
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There's my point.
I'm not trying to 'debunk' anything, I'm pointing out observations and some knowledge gained in study and trying hard to understand your theory. |
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| Are you are trying to tell me that agitation or agitating something can not make it weak or lead to weakness? LOL... |
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | I don't have a clue what you are trying to say, and asked for somewhere I can read up, all I got was something like your last comment.
An agitated fish is by definition not behaving as if it is weak. I also submit that 'weakness' is not readily detectable in normal, every day fish behavior until the fish reaches a state where swimming or normal movement is curtailed. My observations are that won't get the fish eaten anywhere near as quickly as struggling, agitated movement. You said a bluegill struggling will get eaten. Is that bluegill agitated, or weak? The concept you are forwarding infers fish reasoning out a rather complex issue, is that what you are saying?
I fail to see what's so funny. |
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| Obviously what I posted did not come from any study. I simply described something I believe to be true or close to the truth based on observations and experiences that stem from things that have actually happened.
Feel free to post a single Muskellunge study that goes against anything I have said. I'm not saying I am 100% correct and I'm willing to accept I am wrong... if it goes against what I have personally observed and experienced along with how I interpret it.
Edited by Reelwise 4/17/2018 9:31 PM
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Wrong about what? I don't get what your theory is.
'Anyone ever use Bluegill for bait, for Bass? Most of the time... if you get the bait in the right spot... a Bass will eat a newly hooked, erratic acting Bluegill right away. The Bluegills usually do not last very long when doing this... and the longer you go without catching a Bass... the less chance you have of catching one with that Bluegill - regardless of if you put it in front of a new Bass or not. So, Steve... you are right... the sicker and weaker a fish gets - the less chance it has of being eaten... with a chance of not being eaten at all. It is usually the fresh fish that show signs of weakness that get eaten.'
A contradiction. A bluegill struggling to get away at first is certainly not showing any signs of weakness. Yet you say when the bluegill does show signs of weakening, the fish will not eat them as readily, which was exactly my point.
Clarify?
Also, further explanation as to the behavior of the pike and muskies I had in my tanks. They were kept fully fed all the time, always adding minnows when quite a few were still in the tank. |
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| No... not at all. You seem to think I wrote somewhere that Muskies regularly feed on sick, diseased fish. I never said that... I don't believe so anyways.
Theory is pretty much Muskies have a natural instinct to take out gamefish when they are vulnerable or somewhere they should not be. If they end up in the vicinity of a Muskie and are acting in an un-natural way... the Muskie can be triggered to hit or eat it. If the gamefish is injured... the Muskie may be triggered to take it out or eat it due to the idea that the injured fish may survive long enough to go on to take up resources the Muskie or other healthy fish in the system can use. I do not believe the Muskie hits or eats these fish out of hunger... but, rather... other... instinctive triggers. |
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | 'If the gamefish is injured... the Muskie may be triggered to take it out or eat it due to the idea that the injured fish may survive long enough to go on to take up resources the Muskie or other healthy fish in the system can use. I do not believe the Muskie hits or eats these fish out of hunger... but, rather... other... instinctive triggers.'
What resources would an injured fish take up? |
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| Food...
Another idea is an injured or weak fish may go on to reproduce... and have a negative affect on the gene pool.
That and an injured fish can go on to get sick... which could affect other fish and organisms within the system.
Edited by Reelwise 4/17/2018 10:06 PM
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| And it's not a contradiction... I used the word weakness in a way you were portraying it as. |
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Reelwise - 4/17/2018 10:00 PM
Food...
Another idea is an injured or weak fish may go on to reproduce... and have a negative affect on the gene pool.
That and an injured fish can go on to get sick... which could affect other fish and organisms within the system.
OK, issue there is the fish was supposedly injured or sick. Got it.
Healing will fix either, or the fish will die and be consumed by organisms that eat dead fish ( they certainly won't be disappointed), and Muskies don't eat what bluegills or other prey do.
If healing doesn't occur, the fish will die. If it does heal, the fish is taking no more resources than it was before it was sick or injured. The injured fish will not have altered genetics or pass on any 'weakness', and that entire generation would share those genetics anyway. Getting an infection (usually a fungus) from being wounded will not have any affect on other fish that are not injured, as they are not physically compromised.
Given the above, there is no possibility of 'regulating' unless the predator has the ability to create a reasoned possible scenario.
No?
I think your use of the term 'weakness' might be completely replaced by 'vulnerable' as you stated above, and I'm pretty sure muskies don't have the capacity in the noggin to care about either. No? |
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| Like I said... you apparently disagree and are trying to debunk the theory. The Bluegill thing was merely an example of how predators will mainly eat the fresh, injured fish rather than the fish that have been injured for a long period of time... that are farther along in the process of dying. I don't believe you are looking at the concept as a whole. Any theory can be debated in a way to support your own agenda if you pick and choose a couple things that support your idea. There are plenty of things in the discussion that support the original idea... and plenty of things we do as anglers with our lures to trigger fish that relate as well.
Edited by Reelwise 4/17/2018 10:36 PM
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| ...and I agree with a lot of what you have said, Steve. You pretty much said that other fish in the system have a job to do... but, that doesn't mean the Muskie does not do things to help and pick up the slack. |
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Reelwise - 4/17/2018 10:27 PM
Like I said... you apparently disagree and are trying to debunk the theory. The Bluegill thing was merely an example of how predators will mainly eat the fresh, injured fish rather than the fish that have been injured for a long period of time... that are farther along in the process of dying. I don't believe you are looking at the concept as a whole. Any theory can be debated in a way to support your own agenda if you pick and choose a couple things that support your idea. There are plenty of things in the discussion that support the idea... and plenty of things we do as anglers with our lures to trigger fish that relate as well. Arguing motives doesn't clarify your points, which are clearly contradictory. How does one 'debunk' a theory that is based upon assumptions that are without any substance or basis? The whole idea plain doesn't work if applied to any fish population anywhere. The only agenda I have is to reason out what was claimed and see if holds up to scrutiny.
There's plenty of material covering strike impulse out there, which is what, I believe, you are inferring at some level is actually 'regulating'. I have not seen a single reference anywhere to that concept, so was intrigued, and actually hoped a little I had missed something.
I have railed for years against the marketing claim any lure looks like an 'injured minnow' tricking the fish into 'thinking' it's an easy meal, as not one single lure out there look like, acts like, or remotely imitates a real injured bait fish.
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| You are free to your opinion, Steve. But, you have yet to say anything to prove the theory wrong whether it is or not.
Feel free to ask some more questions. |
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | That kind of response is a clear sign of not having any answers.
Actually, EVERYTHING I posted calls the 'regulating' theory into question and is not my own opinion, it's part of the literature on the subject. Might bore to tears, but I read a lot trying to better understand fish behavior.
The original argument is that Muskies actually target walleyes. There could be some modicum of truth to that under a situation where walleyes are the single most available prey, but that is almost impossible. Will a muskie eat a walleye if opportunity arises? Sure, so will a pike, a bass or another walleye, just as all the above might eat a smaller muskie. Fact is, walleyes are not what muskies eat regularly in a balanced ecosystem, and that has been proven.
So what a muskie MIGHT do can't be used to fight the anti muskie groups. Good, solid science proving out what a balanced ecosystem looks like supporting a healthy population of both muskies and walleyes can.
So I find it very important to understand as best as I can how this all works, and as it's obvious here, I do enjoy a good debate.
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| Like I said... feel free to post something you read, experienced, or observed that debunks the idea. What you have written may call the idea into question... but, it does not prove anything to be untrue. I have had this discussion with many people... including fisheries biologists who are responsible for quite a few Muskie related studies. Not only do they have the discussion without the idea of gaining some kind of personal gratitude of proving someone wrong... they actually agree with the idea - even though it may not apply to every body of water. |
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| I responded before you edited and added to your post...
I never said Muskies intentionally go around feeding on Walleyes... and my theory actually says they don't... rather... they will feed on them for different reasons.
So, it is apparent we agree and disagree with eachother on several things. I just think it would have been better for us to start this discussion from scratch rather than go off of a few, random comments I made on the subject early on in response to a single comment.
Edited by Reelwise 4/17/2018 11:10 PM
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| so fish don't ate wounded pray but they will bite on an ugly lure like a suick and anglers (me included ) are catching tons of pike on dead baits. imo fish bites on everything they are far to have the brain of a dr to distinguish the healthy from the sick. |
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | I listed it already. It's called strike response.
For a better reference, see the literal tome "Behavior of Teleost Fishes', linked below. Start a fire in the fireplace first, it's a long read. And, it's expensive.
https://www.springer.com/us/book/9780412429309
And there's no 'personal gratitude' in the debate at all, my job here is far to broad to take it to that personal a level and I'm not inclined to anyhow. I'm not trying to 'prove someone wrong', I'm questioning an idea that was forwarded as a theory and asking for counterpoints based upon something solid and asking someone to prove they are right, to at least some reasonable level. That's how good discussion works, and in the end, how discovery takes place. |
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | supertrollr - 4/17/2018 11:04 PM
so fish don't ate wounded pray but they will bite on an ugly lure like a suick and anglers (me included ) are catching tons of pike on dead baits. imo fish bites on everything they are far to have the brain of a dr to distinguish the healthy from the sick.
See the strike response reference, of course fish will eat an injured fish if it's moving enough and if it isn't, if the fish is hungry. As I said, I had tanks with muskies and pike, then bass and then panfish. I kept them well fed. Sick minnows added to an environment where healthy food was always available always ended up floating or in the filter. I was actually surprised initially.
Smallmouth would randomly kill about half of the fresh minnows and leave them scattered on the bottom. Those things are flat mean. A 8" smallmouth bass will harass a 15" pike by beating the pike's fins all up until the pike sickens and dies. Saw it a few times, as a somewhat controlled experiment. |
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| I guess it is safe to say that you do not believe in some things you have not personally experienced, observed, or read about it.
Thanks for the link. |
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Reelwise - 4/17/2018 11:03 PM
I responded before you edited and added to your post...
I never said Muskies intentionally go around feeding on Walleyes... and my theory actually says they don't... rather... they will feed on them for different reasons.
So, it is apparent we agree and disagree with eachother on several things. I just think it would have been better for us to start this discussion from scratch rather than go off of a few, random comments I made on the subject early on in response to a single comment.
The comments were not random, they forwarded a theory and it intrigued me. As I said, that's how good discussion works, and it all fits into the original poster's commentary and the defense against the anti muskie lobby's insistence that the 'muskies eat all the walleyes', and a proper, effective response. |
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| Seems you are still basing what I have said on sick fish... You can learn a lot by throwing pounders on 100 acre lakes when the fish won't hit any other lure. Many believe the Muskies will hit these lures to kill them (obviously they are not alive)... not to simply eat because they are hungry. Pretty cool to see a 40" Muskie T-bone another 40" Muskie on the end of your line, too. Thanks for the discussion.
Edited by Reelwise 4/17/2018 11:26 PM
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Reelwise - 4/17/2018 11:20 PM
I guess it is safe to say that you do not believe in some things you have not personally experienced, observed, or read about it.
Thanks for the link. ''
That makes no sense. I think I have been on the water as much or more as anyone, yes? I probably read books more than the average muskie angler, that's a guess, but it's likely, especially these days. I still like reading but can't stand reading books on a 'puter. I like the accomplished feeling of turning the page and watching the left side of the open book get thicker.
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Reelwise - 4/17/2018 11:22 PM
Seems you are still basing what I have said on sick fish... You can learn a lot by throwing pounders on 100 acre lakes when the fish won't hit any other lure. Many believe the Muskies will hit these lures to kill them (obviously they are not alive)... not to simply eat because they are hungry. Pretty cool to see a 40" Muskie T-bone another 40" Muskie on the end of your line, too. Thanks for the discussion.
Nope. What you forwarded in the regulating idea, en total. And you described strike response again.
'Muskies will hit these lures to kill them (obviously they are not alive)'
Hit them to kill them but they are not alive....maybe hit them because they provide a strong stimulus and elicit a strong response?
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| That is great... others can say the same.
What most people can't say is they have been everywhere and have experienced everything. I do, however, appreciate other peoples experiences, how they interpret those experiences, and what they pass on as theory and knowledge.
It's quite strange when people with lots of experience of their own say someone else is wrong about something they may have not experienced in the same way - nor have they thought about certain things in the same manor. It's even stranger when someone says someone else is full of it if what they are describing is not in a paper or book somewhere.
"I probably read more than the average muskie angler, that's a guess, but it's likely, especially now." Yeah... not personal at all.
Anyways... you wrote a lot of good stuff... stuff that can actually be applied and used in favor of the theory in question.
Edited by Reelwise 4/17/2018 11:46 PM
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| "Hit them to kill them but they are not alive....maybe hit them because they provide a strong stimulus and elicit a strong response?"
It is obvious that animals throughout the animal kingdom respond to certain things for several reasons as well as specific reasons... and the theory in question gives a few reasons why Muskies may respond the way they do when stimulated in certain ways... at certain times... in different places... and under different conditions.
Edited by Reelwise 4/17/2018 11:50 PM
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Reelwise - 4/17/2018 11:41 PM
That is great... others can say the same.
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What I responded to:
I guess it is safe to say that you do not believe in some things you have not personally experienced, observed, or read about it.
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What most people can't say is they have been everywhere and have experienced everything. I do, however, appreciate other peoples experiences, how they interpret those experiences, and what they pass on as theory and knowledge.
It's quite strange when people with lots of experience of their own question other peoples experiences when they have not experienced the same nor have they thought about certain things in the same manor. It's even stranger when someone says someone else is full of it if what they are describing is not in a paper or book somewhere.
"I probably read more than the average muskie angler, that's a guess, but it's likely, especially now." Yeah... not personal at all.
Anyways... you wrote a lot of good stuff... stuff that can actually be applied and used in favor of the theory in question.
You offered a theory, which by the very term begs discussion and interpretation. I wasn't 'bragging' about reading and have absolutely no idea how much you have read on the subject, I was lamenting the loss of popularity of bound paper books and responding to your comment. You missed that somehow?? by the way, have you offered any of your experiences? I just saw the theory. Most appreciate what's passed on, too, but when offered up as a theory, one should expect questions and even challenges. Again, that's good discussion. |
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| You disagree... I got it. But, I do feel that there is more to the picture for you to learn about, experience, and see with your own eyes. Same goes for me. |
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Reelwise - 4/17/2018 11:56 PM
You disagree... I got it. But, I do feel that there is more to the picture for you to learn about, experience, and see with your own eyes. Same goes for me.
I believe we all will never stop learning about muskie/fish behavior.
If it holds water, a person can take an idea as something to ponder as possibility. Show how an idea holds water, that's pretty much the basis of passing on a theory. Our opposition has forwarded a bunch of total bull#*#* theory in an effort to stop muskie stocking. It's important we respond with facts and forward ideas that are solid as a rock or the debate is lost. Two parties flinging bull#*#* at each other ends up looking suspiciously like politics, and that spells doom for the side with less influence and money.
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| Here is an experience...
On a few lakes in Illinois... it is very rare to catch a Muskie on anything except a pounder during a certain portion of the season. A gold pounder to be exact. White and other color pounders and even mag dawgs matching typical forage species won't or will rarely get hit... but, the large lure that looks like a Walleye or another Muskie... other predators in the system... will get smoked - regularly. Other lures work great at other times of the year on these lakes.
I believe the Muskies may be trying to take out another predator for a lot of the reasons I have mentioned. If they were simply eating because they are hungry... why don't other lures or the same or similar lures in a different color work as well? Keep in mind that a lot of the other lures will give off the same or a similar vibe. We have had lots of boats out on the water during this time, several times, and have experimented.
Of course there may be other reasons as to why the gold pounders work better than other lures... unrelated to this theory... but, this is one situation I believe supports the theory.
Like I said... I do not claim for the "theory" to be 100% true... but, I do not mind arguing it based on what I have seen and how I have thought about it.
The pounder is simply a great lure... I just find it odd that it is literally the only thing you can expect to catch a fish on when no other lure is getting a response. One way to argue everything I have said is to bring up a lake like LSC where the pounder usually outfishes everything else... but, other lures will still work out there. LSC is also loaded with forage... these other lakes are not. When you factor in color and how gold is the only color that will work the majority of the time... and sometimes the only color - it gets even more interesting. I understand that at certain times of the year... other, specific lures will outfish others... but, in this case... during this particular time of the year as well as the location/lakes... the situation, conditions, and reasons are much different. It is a time of year where one may believe the Muskies activity level is at its peak and a variety of lures should work based on the idea that they would be hungrier than other times of the season.
Edited by Reelwise 4/18/2018 12:34 AM
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| Just gave away one of the biggest "secrets" to consistently catch very large Muskies in Illinois |
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| On one of those lakes... we have literally never caught a Muskie on anything except a gold pounder during that time of the year... despite countless hours throwing other colors such as white... along with other lure types. The other colors simply get hit while the gold gets inhaled. |
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| An interesting debate, but I've fished bodies of water where only a certain lure, size, color is claimed to be the only one that works and unless you try every lure that is available that is not always the case. I've caught muskies during these conditions on lures not even similar to to the claimed only lure that works. Of course I tend to try lures that are not commonly found or available or fish different times of day. Just my uneducated 2 cents. |
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | I've found the same thing, sometimes the most effective lure for any angler at any time is due to how and where they fish, and other anglers fishing a different pattern do well on something else entirely. |
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Reelwise - 4/18/2018 12:13 AM
Here is an experience...
On a few lakes in Illinois... it is very rare to catch a Muskie on anything except a pounder during a certain portion of the season. A gold pounder to be exact. White and other color pounders and even mag dawgs matching typical forage species won't or will rarely get hit... but, the large lure that looks like a Walleye or another Muskie... other predators in the system... will get smoked - regularly. Other lures work great at other times of the year on these lakes.
I believe the Muskies may be trying to take out another predator for a lot of the reasons I have mentioned. If they were simply eating because they are hungry... why don't other lures or the same or similar lures in a different color work as well? Keep in mind that a lot of the other lures will give off the same or a similar vibe. We have had lots of boats out on the water during this time, several times, and have experimented.
Of course there may be other reasons as to why the gold pounders work better than other lures... unrelated to this theory... but, this is one situation I believe supports the theory.
Like I said... I do not claim for the "theory" to be 100% true... but, I do not mind arguing it based on what I have seen and how I have thought about it.
The pounder is simply a great lure... I just find it odd that it is literally the only thing you can expect to catch a fish on when no other lure is getting a response. One way to argue everything I have said is to bring up a lake like LSC where the pounder usually outfishes everything else... but, other lures will still work out there. LSC is also loaded with forage... these other lakes are not. When you factor in color and how gold is the only color that will work the majority of the time... and sometimes the only color - it gets even more interesting. I understand that at certain times of the year... other, specific lures will outfish others... but, in this case... during this particular time of the year as well as the location/lakes... the situation, conditions, and reasons are much different. It is a time of year where one may believe the Muskies activity level is at its peak and a variety of lures should work based on the idea that they would be hungrier than other times of the season.
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Looks like an added concept that muskies will attack a lure that 'looks like a smaller muskie or other predator fish' to take them out so they have more food/space/something available, adding to your idea they will hit an injured or sick prey species to eliminate them as competition in the food chain. Do I have this right? |
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| It's not an added concept or idea... just one experience that goes along with what I have been describing. The lures appear to be fish that are acting out of the ordinary... not healthy fish acting normal. I never once claimed that Muskies go around eating other healthy, predatory fish on a regular basis. I gave reasons for why they may eat or attack them.
The "sick" thing was brought up by you and addict. I did not mean sick or diseased when using the word unhealthy. Apparently, to you, injury has nothing to do with health... unless you went back and deleted or modified your comments where you said that. I said maybe unhealthy was not the best word to use in order to satisfy you... but, physical condition and injury... whether sick or not... is related to health.
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Reelwise - 4/18/2018 11:35 AM
It's not an added concept or idea... just one experience that goes along with what I have been describing. The lures appear to be fish that are acting out of the ordinary... not healthy fish acting normal. I never once claimed that Muskies go around eating other healthy, predatory fish on a regular basis. I gave reasons for why they may eat or attack them.
The "sick" thing was brought up by you and addict. I did not mean sick or diseased when using the word unhealthy. Apparently, to you, injury has nothing to do with health... unless you went back and deleted or modified your comments where you said that. I said maybe unhealthy was not the best word to use in order to satisfy you... but, physical condition and injury... whether sick or not... is related to health.
here's what I said in actual context:
'Most sick, wounded (or whatever) fish will never get consumed by any other fish.'
Then you:
'Apparently, to you, injury has nothing to do with health'
Hmmm.
So, to condense the concept, you feel muskies strike other hooked fish of any species to remove them from the system and take them out of competition for space and food because the struggling fish is acting strangely, and that muskie lures also are targeted for the same reason, as they mimic something in a struggling fish that triggers that response. The gold pounder reference seems to imply that muskies hit that pounder in that water under those conditions because it appears to be another muskie or walleye (predator) acting strangely. You feel this is something genetically encoded, not a decision making process, and stated that this 'regulating' is to ensure the future health of the fish related biomass in general. You have some other stuff salted in I have yet to decipher, but do I have it so far?
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| What benefit would there be to taking sick or injured fish out of the system? Once they're compromised to that point they're no longer competing for resources other than the space they take up. Seems to me a muskie would benefit more from letting that fish die and sink to the bottom to provide food for everything else muskies eat. As to why muskies eat lures and hooked fish? Perhaps they appear to be doing the same thing that their prey does, which is trying to escape. |
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| I spent a fair amount of time as a kid digging crayfish out from under rocks, hauling them out the the end of the pier and then feeding them to the bass that used to congregate around a boat lift. The ones that survived the ordeal were the ones that just sank to the bottom. The ones that darted off usually didn't make it to safety. I believe most of our musky catches are a simple biological response. If it swims, its food. If it swims fast, darts around, etc. it's getting away. That explains why what I'll call "figure 8 trigger points" are so effective. Bursts of speed, changes of direction, a quick rise to the surface at the boat... *whack*
Another odd thing I've noticed is that you often see many different types of fish just hanging around together in close proximity. Until one of them eats another... Not sure if its a chemical signal, or a response to the behavior of other surrounding fish, perhaps something environmental. But as soon as that first fish decides to eat, they all start feeding. That's part 2. Thinking about the way we fish jerkbaits, gliders, and minnowbaits. That quick pull/rip followed by a pause. *whack* Now... What does that look like? Some will insist it looks like a dying fish. Horse Hockey. Dying fish just kind of sit there until the end when they're floating on their side trying to stay upright. Those quick bursts of speed followed by a pause look like a feeding fish to me. When a fish is feeding, that's all its doing. It's likely not all that aware of its surroundings, and therefore an easy target for a predatory fish like a muskie. |
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| sworrall - 4/17/2018 11:14 PM
supertrollr - 4/17/2018 11:04 PM
so fish don't ate wounded pray but they will bite on an ugly lure like a suick and anglers (me included ) are catching tons of pike on dead baits. imo fish bites on everything they are far to have the brain of a dr to distinguish the healthy from the sick.
See the strike response reference, of course fish will eat an injured fish if it's moving enough and if it isn't, if the fish is hungry. As I said, I had tanks with muskies and pike, then bass and then panfish. I kept them well fed. Sick minnows added to an environment where healthy food was always available always ended up floating or in the filter. I was actually surprised initially.
Smallmouth would randomly kill about half of the fresh minnows and leave them scattered on the bottom. Those things are flat mean. A 8" smallmouth bass will harass a 15" pike by beating the pike's fins all up until the pike sickens and dies. Saw it a few times, as a somewhat controlled experiment.
do you have a pict of that tank? it must be a really big one.
debate are fun when it's made with respect ,that's how we learn new things.about your sick minnows i think that behavior can change from one species to another . when we see a bass follow ,we have to stop reeling, with musky that's another story. during ice fishing the minnows that are near death bring less fish like percidae species than the fresh one that are always in movement. did you noticed some feeding difference according to a different barometric pressure or temp change ? |
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Might have a picture somewhere on here, we have discussed fish tank experiences here over the past. Sometimes a barometric change coupled with a major made the fish tank light up, others, nothing. Just like on the water, I guess. Temps were held at a consistent 70 or so, so nothing to report there. Pike were the most fun, walleyes very hard to keep alive.
The most beautiful fish I had was a pound and a quarter or so pumpkin seed. That fish loved minnows. |
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Location: Aurora | I was always amazed at how big a bait fish the crappies could take in one gulp.
6" shiner?.. ~slurp!~ |
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