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Posts: 14
Location: chicago | hi,
wondering if anyone has an opinion on lure color as it relates to water color?
i know two things about lure color: 1 is to match the forage fish, ie perch, cicsoes, etc. and 2 is dark baits in dark water.
do those two rules hold up in the crazy world of musky fishing?
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| I like white on stained water with overcast days. Other then that, no color preference. |
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Posts: 612
| I'm a believer in trying to match the hatch. On Conesus I use silver since the main bait is alewives it seems to help. On Chautauqua I use perch colored jerkbaits and crankbaits and it seems to help. When I've been up to Canada I also use perch colored baits where they eat a lot of perch and it works.
I think a bit of flash can help as well. |
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Posts: 32789
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Muskies can see color, but it's not as simple as that. Water breaks down light quickly (think a rainbow) so even at high noon in very clear water, the longer frequencies are gone pretty fast. In 10' on a clear day a coke can on the bottom will appear black or nearly black. Color (cone) vision is there on a clock basis only, reverting to black and white (rod) vision as a process that is clock based, not light availability based. In the evening it's likely that muskies may not see much color for two reasons, light availability due to sun angle, and whether they physically can see color at the time.
Then there's the issue of how colors on baits are made. If the primary color in orange, for example, is red with a bit of yellow added, that lure will appear grey and darker/faster than if the primary color is yellow with a bit of red added.
Settle on contrast, and use dark lures against a light background (like a cloudy day) and light lures against a darker background (like a sunny day) and if going deep against rocks, weeds, etc. contrast there too. Black is a guaranteed correct color no matter what as the absence of all color, and white is as the presence of all color. Remember muskies see what is slightly above to directly above them all the time, can't see the end of their nose or a short triangle area in front of their face, and are badly nearsighted, so the detail you see on a lure is wasted on a muskie. And also keep in mind scale color on baitfish is markedly different that that of most paints. Contrast is the key, if they can see it they will hit it active enough, and most of the time will miss it or follow if they can't.
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Location: Pewaukee, WI | Absolutely! I agree with Steve's assessment 100%. |
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Location: Eastern Ontario | My best coloured Suicks are firetiger especially the ones that have no paint left. |
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Posts: 8719
| Muskies feed largely by sight and obviously the lateral line. Color is pretty far down the list. Contrast is important. Color, not so much. I do have certain colors I prefer in various types of water, but that's as much for me being able to see the lure as it is because they've just plain worked for me. I have a good friend who swears by black in coffee colored water. That's great and I'm sure it works. But it's nearly impossible to see your lures during the retrieve. |
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Location: minocqua, wi. | esoxaddict - 9/7/2017 1:54 PM
Muskies feed largely by sight and obviously the lateral line. Color is pretty far down the list. Contrast is important. Color, not so much. I do have certain colors I prefer in various types of water, but that's as much for me being able to see the lure as it is because they've just plain worked for me. I have a good friend who swears by black in coffee colored water. That's great and I'm sure it works. But it's nearly impossible to see your lures during the retrieve.
never know Jeff, even your numbers might improve if you venture out on the limb and give color a try. |
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Location: Lake Country, Wisconsin | esoxaddict - 9/7/2017 1:54 PM
Muskies feed largely by sight and obviously the lateral line. Color is pretty far down the list. Contrast is important. Color, not so much. I do have certain colors I prefer in various types of water, but that's as much for me being able to see the lure as it is because they've just plain worked for me. I have a good friend who swears by black in coffee colored water. That's great and I'm sure it works. But it's nearly impossible to see your lures during the retrieve.
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Posts: 2004
| Muskies are looking up through the water column, not down into it like we are. |
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Posts: 14
Location: chicago | wow--some solid replies--thanks! it's like this forum is a musky crystal ball. musky are amazing animals--just beasts! great to know about their sight. i've never seen a musky wearing glasses... |
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Location: Eastern Ontario | ARmuskyaddict - 9/7/2017 4:10 PM
Muskies are looking up through the water column, not down into it like we
are.
Yet they will feed on catfish suckers carp and never walleye  which live where |
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Location: Eastern Ontario | If colour was really important which i don't believe the more colours I have would only increase the odds of me having the wrong one on. I take a lure that has been productive in the past and use it. The more fish I catch on a given lure in different situations the more confidence i gain to use it. I spend a lot of time trolling the Larry where i can use two rods and often troll two identical lures ( in as much as no two lures can be absolutely identical ) . The things I change are lead lengths, how the rods are set, inline or big planer boards, Area and depth fished. |
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Location: minocqua, wi. | Jeff ... from your experience, do you think boat color matters? what caused you to want a blue boat, was it for better hook ups? |
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Posts: 430
| Colors and paint jobs catch fisherman. |
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Location: oswego, il | jonnysled - 9/7/2017 4:40 PM
Jeff ... from your experience, do you think boat color matters? what caused you to want a blue boat, was it for better hook ups?
Doesn't show dust. |
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Location: oswego, il | I think color does matter. Ask guys that troll lsc. Maybe not when fish are stupid active but it does matter. I can tell you this, I didn't bring enough white twitch baits with me to lotw! |
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Location: Contrarian Island | color matters, at times more than others...more of it boils down to where the lure is presented and how active the fish is or isn't... |
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Location: Eastern Ontario | I always remember an article from years back Infisherman I think, where when Mark Windell was guiding he would catch a fish then take the bucktail off and give it to the client. He would then put a totally different colour on and continue to catch fish. I have lost count of the number of times I caught fish on one of my firetiger suicks and someone in the back of my boat was catching on a different colour. I have been to numerous Muskies Canada outings ( tournaments for a $2 trophy )where numerous fish were caught on many different lures of many different colours. In lots of situations it is the first lure through and could just as well be a socket wrench. I use a lot of lures made by my buddy Shawn Maher and although he does a great paint job if I put the lures down 16 feet on a Waterwolf camera I cant tell brown perch from perch or glitter perch, blackperch.
If you think changing lures every 15 minutes helps you go at it but don't leave them on the floor of my boat.
Edited by horsehunter 9/8/2017 7:33 AM
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| sure but of all 3 important things of a lure it's the least important .imho size ,shape,color.i would add that i learn something cool from a carp anglers at tv,he said white is the perfect color for the back and black for the belly.imo it's a really intelligent color choice for a lure.even if white belly is my go to belly color i feel like mother nature haven't add to fish white belly to be that easily seen,and the dark back is to escape from the trouble that can came from above. i have not seen a single musky cranks like that
Edited by supertrollr 9/8/2017 8:44 AM
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Location: Ludington, MI | Yes. This is the reason most bump boards have many colors on them. |
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Location: oswego, il | tundrawalker00 - 9/8/2017 8:00 AM
Yes. This is the reason most bump boards have many colors on them.
You are onto something here! What is the best color for a bump board? |
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Location: Blaine, MN | ToddM - 9/7/2017 9:10 PM
I think color does matter. Ask guys that troll lsc. Maybe not when fish are stupid active but it does matter. I can tell you this, I didn't bring enough white twitch baits with me to lotw!
Hey Todd... you have it in your schedule to elaborate on specific white twitch baits?!?!?!? leaving for LOTW in 10 hours |
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Location: Lake Country, Wisconsin | short STRIKE - 9/8/2017 9:10 AM
ToddM - 9/7/2017 9:10 PM
I think color does matter. Ask guys that troll lsc. Maybe not when fish are stupid active but it does matter. I can tell you this, I didn't bring enough white twitch baits with me to lotw!
Hey Todd... you have it in your schedule to elaborate on specific white twitch baits?!?!?!? leaving for LOTW in 10 hours
Crane white with black stripes works well when that bite is on there... |
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Location: 31 | horsehunter - 9/7/2017 11:29 AM My best coloured Suicks are firetiger especially the ones that have no paint left. Good one... made me chuckle!
When guys in my boat want to switch just for "color", I like to compare the color of a bait to the moon phase, and the action/vibration, depth, and speed of the offering to the weather. It's my opinion that the fish catching ability of an offering is predicated considerably more by it's action rather than it's color. There's been many occasions when one particular bait is getting hammered and my boat partner wants to switch to that "color" without first considering that maybe it simply has better action. I always start with any noticeable difference in its action first, but I also can understand how it's simply easier and more natural for most to relate to color first... to each their own. Somebody brought up Mark Windels and this reminded me of a conversation I had with him almost 30 years ago while I was in the middle of ordering a gross of his muskie chuggers. He asked me why I was ordering so many and I said it was so I could pick out the ones with the better side to side action. His curiosity roused he asked if I could tell the difference. My reply; absolutely... and that identical looking baits rarely have identical action. With that said; I concentrate more on getting the action of the bait just right, and try not to have any preconceived notion of an advantage with color. Does color matter... I have no idea and honestly do not pay too much attention to it anymore. A shallow water prism flash would be a whole different conversation though  |
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Location: oswego, il | It was a custom bait made by spoonpluggerino. It looks a little like a big game but wider. About 7" long. Had a slow rise and dove a little deeper than a crane. The 8" brown and white, black and white crane worked well too.
Edited by ToddM 9/11/2017 2:12 PM
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Location: Southern Indiana | Had a trip to Webster several years ago when the only bait that moved fish was a blue/nickel bucktail. No other baits moved a single fish. After 2 days bought another blue/nickel bucktail, all they had was a totally different blade size & shape but it moved fish too. We fished 2 different lakes and the same thing on both. Only time I've seen that happen, but it's hard to believe color didn't have something to do with it. |
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| jonnysled - 9/7/2017 4:40 PM
Jeff ... from your experience, do you think boat color matters? what caused you to want a blue boat, was it for better hook ups?
In a perfect world, the boat should match the color of your truck, including seats, carpet. etc. But when you're buying used, condition trumps all.
Unless it's brown. No brown boats. Looks like a giant turd... |
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Location: minocqua, wi. | i'd pick a faded out scratched up ranger over a pristine smoker craft ... |
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| I would say your color ideas in the first post are correct, steves information is great, but. If the fish can locate a lure any way other than just sight- I only think color matters 2-3 days a month... |
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Location: oswego, il | Fishysam - 9/11/2017 8:55 PM
I only think color matters 2-3 days a month...
Married?
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| Nope, but if I were to fish 30 days in a row, color only maters for three of them other factors much more important are lure, lure depth, size, type of structure and timing |
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Location: oswego, il | Dam, overthrew that one.:-)
Edited by ToddM 9/12/2017 7:38 PM
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Posts: 239
Location: Elroy, Wisconsin | I would put factors affecting musky activity/aggressiveness as follows
Weather
Depth holding fish
Cover type
Action of lure
Finally color
I have seen color make a difference very few times. Three identical lures out, multiple hit only one color. One time it was yellow and black striped jailbird pattern. Three boated one afternoon all on jailbird. Action or color, I don,t know. Happened tp me only a couple of times. I have to talked to guys who primarily troll and they report muskies hitting one lure on their spread, color, I don't know.
Mudpuppy
Mudpuppy |
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Fishysam - 9/11/2017 8:55 PM
I would say your color ideas in the first post are correct, steves information is great, but. If the fish can locate a lure any way other than just sight- I only think color matters 2-3 days a month...
Contrast matters every day, and not just a little. Muskies are sight feeders, meaning that a large part of the stimulus creating a strike response is attached to seeing the bait, and if they can't see the lure well are very prone to miss it, as well. The better they can see it, the better the entire process goes well. Color underwater translates pretty quickly to a contrast discussion because of what the water does to light. Since muskies basically look up all the time, and water does crazy things to light, there's more than just what you see above the water when you choose your lure color. |
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Location: Elk River, MN | While I believe color plays a role in muskies eating, I think its towards the bottom of the list of factors affecting it in many situations. |
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Location: 31 | Last week we ran 3 to 4 of the same color and type bait in a six line spread from a continuation of the day before, yet the first 3 fish that day all came on the same inside board bait. I think more times than not a lot of what we do becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy, especially with color (self included).
If what Steve says is correct… couldn't we just paint half of the lure all black and the other half all white and be done with it? And… if they're primarily sight feeders, how do they ever track and bite a lure so accurately at night? |
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Jerry Newman - 9/13/2017 4:30 PM Last week we ran 3 to 4 of the same color and type bait in a six line spread from a continuation of the day before, yet the first 3 fish that day all came on the same inside board bait. I think more times than not a lot of what we do becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy, especially with color (self included).
If what Steve says is correct… couldn't we just paint half of the lure all black and the other half all white and be done with it? And… if they're primarily sight feeders, how do they ever track and bite a lure so accurately at night?
It's correct, and pretty much with the black and white lure idea...yes. However, some colors, especially compound colors, contrast better. What about finishes that do a better job of reflecting light than others? Take a look at what happens to light in the water, how much light is reflected off the water's surface, what colors disappear first, and what colors make up compound colors. Real science stuff, and pretty darned conclusive. I actually do a seminar for clubs, etc showing exactly what happens to color as the light drops. One can see a contrasting lure really well, but not one single person can tell me what color the lure is. Forget about your watch, that's not the clock nature runs on. Learn about sun time and seasonal sun angles, that will help you select structural elements at times for best conditions/timing. And when you find out muskies are sensitive and subject to all this (you will), try fishing really big crappies and learn what that fish can actually do. Tough buggers to catch, the biggest of the big crappies in any one lake or river.
Then learn about the structure and function of the muskie's eyes. Did you know muskies are very seriously near sighted? Did you know that depth perception is a real issue for muskies? How about that 30 degree window? How far in front of a muskie does the blind spot go? What does that mean?
For over 35 years I've been trying to read and learn everything I can about what these critters really can and can't do. Still learning.A volume of the behavior one sees in fishes is very attributable to their eyesight, and then there's the other senses, and how everything welds together into a strike response, which is what we all seek.
Study 'rod vision' and how incredibly sensitive to light the muskie's eyes are after dark and for a time leading up to dark because it's already dark down there. It's not anywhere near as dark under the water at night to a muskie as it is to us, we don't have that kind of eye structure. Add some moonlight...and factor in the muskie's fixed iris (like a camera shutter wide open all the time) and it becomes clear muskies don't see at all like we do and live in a much different world than us. What we see looking at a lure above the water is irrelevant in so many ways.
The most technically accurate definition of color is:
"Color is the visual effect that is caused by the spectral composition of the light emitted, transmitted, or reflected by objects." "objects"= lure colors, that is, and the reflected light...where does that come from? What if red has been filtered out and cannot be reflected back to the muskie's eyes, what color is a red lure then? How about an orange lure? Depends on how the compound color was made and the process in which it was applied to the lure body.
And then there's the UV spectrum. Back a long time ago we used to discuss this sort of thing quite a bit here. I miss those debates....
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Posts: 56
| I have read an excellent book on this subject. It is a little dated now, but much of the info still applies. It is called The Scientific Angler. I would like to see someone recreate the book with all of our new tech and knowledge. Some of the science won't change no matter how dated the book is though. |
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Location: Madison, WI | here's an interesting study on the subject
http://jeb.biologists.org/content/jexbio/204/6/1207.full.pdf
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Location: Madison, WI | If you are really interested in the way color works underwater i highly recommend reading "What fish see" by Dr. Colin Kageyama. Being a color nerd is part of my job and i learned a ton from this book. Easy to go down a rabbit hole with the color stuff and end up with way too many baits though... In my mind there are other areas where the time/effort invested would be more worthwhile. |
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Location: Minnesota. | Hate to plead ignorance here - especially for (cough, cough) ALL the muskies I catch - but to me color means little!
I took my PB on a Wild Sucker Suick that had lots of the paint worn off and was basically mostly white! Hmmm...dunno there. It was bad enough that Suick made it right.
Anyways I have a couple red/white Suicks that I haven't tossed at all. Wonder why - toothy critters (pike) love that color combo from my high school days and they haven't had an orig. idea in over a million years so maybe it would work on muskies. Dunno there, just no confidence!!
I like black baits a lot and wonder why. Not many food fish that I've seen are black. Interesting topic and likely one that will be around forever.
I don't take many fish - maybe I should begin tossing the red/white Suicks?? If I take one I'll blab! |
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Location: Ludington, MI | I have a vintage Color-C-Lector if anyone is interested! |
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Location: Elroy, Wisconsin | Through The Fishes Eye, by Prof. John Clark, University of Penn is the best I found on the topic of color.
Mudpuppy |
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Mudpuppy - 9/19/2017 5:10 PM
Through The Fishes Eye, by Prof. John Clark, University of Penn is the best I found on the topic of color.
Mudpuppy
Sosin and Clark. Mark is an amazing angler. When I finally met him and told him how much the book meant to me, he said," So YOU are the guy who bought one!" Great sense of humor too. |
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| steve's posts are very interesting. One of my favorite colors has distinct black stripes running across the sides and back, even though the base color resembles nothing the musky eat in my area the fish still seem to love it. |
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Location: Ashland WI | ToddM - 9/12/2017 7:37 PM
Dam, overthrew that one.:-)
Thats cuz he's not married.....
I got it. |
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Location: Forest Lake, Mn. | Odd, I was just going to suggest; Through The Fishes Eye by Sosin, when I read further down and find it already mentioned. I have an edition that was given to me in 1977 by my father when I was a Junior in high school. Dad's long since passed on but I still have the book.
Fishing Lure Color Selection (Part 1). How Colors Look Underwater
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tpQTh_tnJ6c
Part 2
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TTi5nJqEzvo
Part 3
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QTqyVX3oZk0
Part 4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p5P6UMGiT7o
In my personal experience there was only 1 time when I thought that color made a difference. A few years back I made a week long trip to Vermilion and the only lure that moved muskies was a pink and white bucktail. All pink or all white bucktails produced nothing. Any other style of lure produced nothing.
Now, I suppose it could be argued that there was something different about that bucktail, other than color, compared to the rest of the bucktails. Honestly, though, I can't figure out what that difference might be? All the bucktails I had were of the same manufacturer and style with the only visible difference being the color. The blades on all my bucktails were #8 Colorado so vibration should have been the same. You tell me! lol
I looked at that pink/white bucktail closely and tried to see if I could figure out what was different about it compared to the others and I couldn't.
Pink turns to gray as it goes deeper in the water, as explained already in this thread and in the video links, so maybe the pink/white bucktail became gray/white bucktail and better matched the forage, Cisco's?? You tell me!
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Location: Madison, WI | ---
Pink turns to gray as it goes deeper in the water, as explained already in this thread and in the video links, so maybe the pink/white bucktail became gray/white bucktail and better matched the forage, Cisco's?? You tell me!
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One interesting point to this also is that fluorescent colors are able to reflect a much broader range of the light spectrum than conventional colors can. Maybe the pink blades were fluorescent and thus stayed bright where the other colors faded? |
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| I'd be curious to know why the green blade/black bucktail combination seems to work on the Chippewa Flowage. Seems lake-specific and doesn't seem to be used much elsewhere. |
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Location: Forest Lake, Mn. | johnsonaaro2 - 9/21/2017 12:58 PM
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Pink turns to gray as it goes deeper in the water, as explained already in this thread and in the video links, so maybe the pink/white bucktail became gray/white bucktail and better matched the forage, Cisco's?? You tell me!
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One interesting point to this also is that fluorescent colors are able to reflect a much broader range of the light spectrum than conventional colors can. Maybe the pink blades were fluorescent and thus stayed bright where the other colors faded?
Nice thought but no they weren't fluorescent paints just basic pink. |
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Location: oswego, il | bwalsh - 9/21/2017 1:22 PM
I'd be curious to know why the green blade/black bucktail combination seems to work on the Chippewa Flowage. Seems lake-specific and doesn't seem to be used much elsewhere.
It works elsewhere, it works on the chip because it is a popular choice.
Edited by ToddM 9/21/2017 1:43 PM
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Location: Forest Lake, Mn. | ToddM - 9/21/2017 1:42 PM
bwalsh - 9/21/2017 1:22 PM
I'd be curious to know why the green blade/black bucktail combination seems to work on the Chippewa Flowage. Seems lake-specific and doesn't seem to be used much elsewhere.
It works elsewhere, it works on the chip because it is a popular choice.
Green/black and chartreuse/black have been standard muskie colors for years.
I used to joke that you can use any color you like so long as it's chartreuse. lol |
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | bwalsh - 9/21/2017 1:22 PM
I'd be curious to know why the green blade/black bucktail combination seems to work on the Chippewa Flowage. Seems lake-specific and doesn't seem to be used much elsewhere.
Green is yellow/blue compound color. If it's painted over a white surface it 'gathers' more light.
http://indianapublicmedia.org/amomentofscience/a-magical-glow/
As said, then there's the UV spectrum....
Black is always right, and no matter what color is with the black, will contrast so the fish can see it well. It may not be the chartreuse getting it done at all, depending. It also MAY be, depending on sky conditions. Cloudy day? No. Sunny day? yep. |
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | fishpoop - 9/21/2017 1:24 PM
johnsonaaro2 - 9/21/2017 12:58 PM
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Pink turns to gray as it goes deeper in the water, as explained already in this thread and in the video links, so maybe the pink/white bucktail became gray/white bucktail and better matched the forage, Cisco's?? You tell me!
-----
One interesting point to this also is that fluorescent colors are able to reflect a much broader range of the light spectrum than conventional colors can. Maybe the pink blades were fluorescent and thus stayed bright where the other colors faded?
Nice thought but no they weren't fluorescent paints just basic pink.
White and red is famous for working well.it's basically white and black most of the time. Pink is basically gray. |
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Location: Eastern Ontario | What nobody can prove one way or another is whether another bait style or colour at the EXACT time, speed, depth wouldn't have achieved the same desired result.
I caught a lot of fish back in the 70's when all my lures fit in a styrofoam minnow bucket now they won't all fit in the boat because I was drinking the Koolaid
I rarely use more than 4 lures in a days fishing
Edited by horsehunter 9/21/2017 5:10 PM
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | horsehunter - 9/21/2017 5:02 PM
What nobody can prove one way or another is whether another bait style or colour at the EXACT time, speed, depth wouldn't have achieved the same desired result.
I caught a lot of fish back in the 70's when all my lures fit in a styrofoam minnow bucket now they won't all fit in the boat because I was drinking the Koolaid
I rarely use more than 4 lures in a days fishing
True, but why knowingly fish a lure the muskies will have trouble seeing? Just increases misses, follows, and will put fewer fish in the net. It's part of the equation, not the whole. |
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Location: Eastern Ontario | Whether my local stained lake or the very clear St Lawrence where i spend a lot of my time I'm not sure you could find a colour that a muskie couldn't see including my firetiger suicks that are now mostly paintless . Many times i have caught fish in the front of a boat and the person in the back of the boat has caught fish on a totally different colour. I also caught a muskie that appeared to be totally blind that seemed to be doing quite well.
As a side note I was told by Dr. Bruce Tufts Queens University that the biggest trigger for a lure regardless of colours was vertical bars |
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | They have to see the bars for that to be a trigger. Totally different color doesn't mean either or both are maximized, and doesn't mean they are not. Knowing they are is the key.
Muskies can feed when blind, but not anywhere nearly as well. The other sensory organs adapt to a degree. |
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| sworrall - 9/21/2017 5:34 PM
horsehunter - 9/21/2017 5:02 PM
What nobody can prove one way or another is whether another bait style or colour at the EXACT time, speed, depth wouldn't have achieved the same desired result.
I caught a lot of fish back in the 70's when all my lures fit in a styrofoam minnow bucket now they won't all fit in the boat because I was drinking the Koolaid
I rarely use more than 4 lures in a days fishing
True, but why knowingly fish a lure the muskies will have trouble seeing? Just increases misses, follows, and will put fewer fish in the net. It's art of the equation, not the whole.
Nature provides the best camouflage to muskie food. Dark on the back so birds don't see them, light on the belly so they are less easily seen from underneath, spots and stripes and bars to break up the profile so they are difficult to see against the background of their habitat...
And yet we buy lures that are painted to look like fish.
Seems we'd be better served if every lure we owned was chartreuse with black bars. or just striped black and white. All my best producing lures have black on them somewhere, but none are completely black. That leads me to believe that contrast far outweighs color.
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Location: Eastern Ontario | Would there be a case to be made for not using the most visible lure ( obvious fake) but rather one less visible that just creates an impression of life.
I don't really believe it matters if it moves it's food
I've caught several good fish this year on a finish Hoser calls Brown Perch which is quite realistic except it has an orange belly not seen a lot of fish with an orange belly. Caught a 53 this past weekend on a modified Jailbird i had made that looks like nothing that swims . I also took delivery of a Strawberry just because someone told me several times that Strawberry will not work on the Larry stay tuned |
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| If fishing a pressured lake, I wouldn't hesitate to throw a clear lure that the fish cant really see but feel hear and just have to take a shot to see if it's food, only thing is not very many clear lures made, I don't get why they don't make more call them jellyfish, clear with a silver/white hase, clear pink mist, clear blue haze, or just clear with some flek of what ever colors |
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| fishpoop - 9/21/2017 1:52 PM
ToddM - 9/21/2017 1:42 PM
bwalsh - 9/21/2017 1:22 PM
I'd be curious to know why the green blade/black bucktail combination seems to work on the Chippewa Flowage. Seems lake-specific and doesn't seem to be used much elsewhere.
It works elsewhere, it works on the chip because it is a popular choice.
Green/black and chartreuse/black have been standard muskie colors for years.
I used to joke that you can use any color you like so long as it's chartreuse. lol
Yes, green has been used on baits in many different ways on baits for years and I suppose that specific color green blade you see on the flowage is just thrown more there so its chances of success are higher. Perhaps, though, people keep throwing that color because they are meeting with some success? I remember reading on Ty Sennett's site that something like 2/3s of his bucktail fish have come on green blades/black bucktails. To me that is notable and I just wonder if it has something to do with water color or forage or something else specific to that lake. |
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Location: Southern Indiana | There are 2 editions of "Through the Fish's Eye"- one from 1973 and one from 2016. Anybody happen to know if the books are different or just a rerelease of the same book? |
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Location: S.W. WI | bwalsh - 9/22/2017 8:24 AM
fishpoop - 9/21/2017 1:52 PM
ToddM - 9/21/2017 1:42 PM
bwalsh - 9/21/2017 1:22 PM
I'd be curious to know why the green blade/black bucktail combination seems to work on the Chippewa Flowage. Seems lake-specific and doesn't seem to be used much elsewhere.
It works elsewhere, it works on the chip because it is a popular choice.
Green/black and chartreuse/black have been standard muskie colors for years.
I used to joke that you can use any color you like so long as it's chartreuse. lol
Yes, green has been used on baits in many different ways on baits for years and I suppose that specific color green blade you see on the flowage is just thrown more there so its chances of success are higher. Perhaps, though, people keep throwing that color because they are meeting with some success? I remember reading on Ty Sennett's site that something like 2/3s of his bucktail fish have come on green blades/black bucktails. To me that is notable and I just wonder if it has something to do with water color or forage or something else specific to that lake.
I have fished the Chip a lot.
I see a lot of people throwing Green/black bucks. Like about half of em, maybe more.
I have done better on other colors. I'd put a lot of stock in what Ty says, but you only get them on what you throw. Maybe green is better there, hasn't been for me. but that's just me.
Edited by Rudedog 9/26/2017 3:49 PM
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| Black casts the best profile in the water
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Location: Hayward, Wisconsin | bwalsh: I have a theory about the Kelly green blades that are so popular on the Chippewa Flowage (and a few other places). If you were to catch some crappies from there, you would note that they have a Kelly green "sheen" to them. Muskies feed on crappies. Green blades merely appear to muskies to be small crappies.
Exoxaddict: Your thought on lures matching fish color is right on in my opinion. That is why I used to have lure makers paint my jerk baits upside down. Caught LOTS of muskies on them! |
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| I have a lure that has had multiple different paint schemes(all by me and all bad looking) and all schemes have caught fish. It matters up to the point where it doesn't. |
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| Some of my best baits have all the paint worn off. The baits produce as well as they used to, if not better, on the same waters where they've always produced....sort of convincing me that color is rather, unimportant... |
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Paint worn off doesn't mean the bait doesn't offer a 'color' footprint. Take a hard look at what muskies can (and can't) see and what happens to color in the water column. Combinations of color (different paint schemes) absolutely do not make color irrelevant. There's no such thing as a 'bad' paint job unless the lure is for sale. Anglers care a heck of a lot more about how 'real' a color pattern looks than fish do.
Did you know muskies are notoriously near sighted?
I would think one would not discount a primary sense fishes use to feed keeping in mind it's a an important part, but not the entirety, of the equation. Larry offers an excellent point with the upside down bait color, by the way.
There's some great info offered through this entire discussion. |
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Location: Green Bay, WI | After reading along with this thread, I must say two things:
1) I can't wait to start reading the copy of the Sosin/Clark book I just bought.
2) I think I want to paint my boat light on one half, and dark on the other. Then on light days I'll fish off the light side, and vice versa on dark days. I'll be invisible, which is saying a lot for my fat arse. It might be just crazy enough to work... |
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Tom, you are the only person I know who I would believe WOULD paint your boat for an experiment. |
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Location: Green Bay, WI | I'm flattered (I think).
TB |
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| sworrall - 10/21/2017 7:57 PM
Paint worn off doesn't mean the bait doesn't offer a 'color' footprint. Take a hard look at what muskies can (and can't) see and what happens to color in the water column. Combinations of color (different paint schemes) absolutely do not make color irrelevant. There's no such thing as a 'bad' paint job unless the lure is for sale. Anglers care a heck of a lot more about how 'real' a color pattern looks than fish do.
Did you know muskies are notoriously near sighted?
I would think one would not discount a primary sense fishes use to feed keeping in mind it's a an important part, but not the entirety, of the equation. Larry offers an excellent point with the upside down bait color, by the way.
There's some great info offered through this entire discussion.
Couple of things here.
First, if the particular color of a hunk of wood (or plastic or metal) was relevant in determining whether a muskie will eat said hunk of wood (or plastic or metal), then one would expect that the same bait would either gain (or lose) effectiveness as the particular color wears off, while fishing the same waters. E.g., the bait wouldn't retain the same level of effectiveness when its color has altogether changed.
As I said above, in my experience, my best baits have kept their effectiveness despite the loss of their original color. Basic logic tells me that color wasn't and isn't an important factor explaining the effectiveness of these particular baits.
Secondly, I think we too often assume the muskies are eating our baits because our baits resemble their primary forage. I don't necessarily believe that. E.g., I have some doubt that a muskie ever believes its eating a crappie when it decides to eat a bucktail.
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Location: Hayward, Wisconsin | I tend to agree with Matt. I believe the "action" and/or "sound" of a lure are far more important than color. Although color my be important to the "user" and elicit more "user" confidence and therefore more attention to working the lure properly in the right places at the right time... |
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Location: Green Bay, WI |
This was GREAT information Paul--thanks so much for posting it! In fact I would go so far as to say that this series of videos should be "required information" that people must watch before they can comment/debate/argue about the importance of lure color(s) in the whole scheme of things. The visuals presented in that video series are used perfectly to illustrate the concepts of light absorption by water, the refraction/reflection of light, and the effects of wave action and particulate matter on light penetration. Incredible stuff!
Hey Steve, I'd like to propose that you make a sticky (in the Biology section ?) with these video links in it. I think it would save a lot of debate/argument in the threads, and therefore the energy that people have to devote to this type of discussion can be based on a solid foundation of the physics of light across an air/water interface, and the basic effects of water on light transmission.
TB
Edited by tcbetka 10/22/2017 8:42 AM
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Tom,
No matter what we link up, the discussion will not change. What happens to light under the water, and color as a result is not in question and should never be, that's well defined. What muskies see is pretty well defined as well. So what's the issue? Some folks do not read the entire thread.
People are, apparently, arguing with me that lure colors don't matter, and that morphs into whether the paint job is 'natural' and so on. Here's what I said earlier in this discussion:
1) Muskies can see color, but it's not as simple as that. Water breaks down light quickly (think a rainbow) so even at high noon in very clear water, the longer frequencies are gone pretty fast. In 10' on a clear day a coke can on the bottom will appear black or nearly black. Color (cone) vision is there on a clock basis only, reverting to black and white (rod) vision as a process that is clock based, not light availability based. In the evening it's likely that muskies may not see much color for two reasons, light availability due to sun angle, and whether they physically can see color at the time.
Then there's the issue of how colors on baits are made. If the primary color in orange, for example, is red with a bit of yellow added, that lure will appear grey and darker/faster than if the primary color is yellow with a bit of red added.
Settle on contrast, and use dark lures against a light background (like a cloudy day) and light lures against a darker background (like a sunny day) and if going deep against rocks, weeds, etc. contrast there too. Black is a guaranteed correct color no matter what as the absence of all color, and white is as the presence of all color. Remember muskies see what is slightly above to directly above them all the time, can't see the end of their nose or a short triangle area in front of their face, and are badly nearsighted, so the detail you see on a lure is wasted on a muskie. And also keep in mind scale color on baitfish is markedly different that that of most paints. Contrast is the key, if they can see it they will hit it active enough, and most of the time will miss it or follow if they can't.
2) After a very inaccurate comment:
Fishysam - 9/11/2017 8:55 PM
I would say your color ideas in the first post are correct, steves information is great, but. If the fish can locate a lure any way other than just sight- I only think color matters 2-3 days a month...
Me:
Contrast matters every day, and not just a little. Muskies are sight feeders, meaning that a large part of the stimulus creating a strike response is attached to seeing the bait, and if they can't see the lure well are very prone to miss it, as well. The better they can see it, the better the entire process goes well. Color underwater translates pretty quickly to a contrast discussion because of what the water does to light. Since muskies basically look up all the time, and water does crazy things to light, there's more than just what you see above the water when you choose your lure color.
And then:
Jerry Newman - 9/13/2017 4:30 PM
Last week we ran 3 to 4 of the same color and type bait in a six line spread from a continuation of the day before, yet the first 3 fish that day all came on the same inside board bait. I think more times than not a lot of what we do becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy, especially with color (self included).
If what Steve says is correct… couldn't we just paint half of the lure all black and the other half all white and be done with it? And… if they're primarily sight feeders, how do they ever track and bite a lure so accurately at night?
Me:
It's correct, and pretty much with the black and white lure idea...yes. However, some colors, especially compound colors, contrast better. What about finishes that do a better job of reflecting light than others?
Take a look at what happens to light in the water, how much light is reflected off the water's surface, what colors disappear first, and what colors make up compound colors. Real science stuff, and pretty darned conclusive. I actually do a seminar for clubs, etc showing exactly what happens to color as the light drops. One can see a contrasting lure really well, but not one single person can tell me what color the lure is.
Forget about your watch, that's not the clock nature runs on. Learn about sun time and seasonal sun angles, that will help you select structural elements at times for best conditions/timing. And when you find out muskies are sensitive and subject to all this (you will), try fishing really big crappies and learn what that fish can actually do. Tough buggers to catch, the biggest of the big crappies in any one lake or river.
Then learn about the structure and function of the muskie's eyes. Did you know muskies are very seriously near sighted? Did you know that depth perception is a real issue for muskies? How about that 30 degree window? How far in front of a muskie does the blind spot go? What does that mean?
For over 35 years I've been trying to read and learn everything I can about what these critters really can and can't do. Still learning.A volume of the behavior one sees in fishes is very attributable to their eyesight, and then there's the other senses, and how everything welds together into a strike response, which is what we all seek.
Study 'rod vision' and how incredibly sensitive to light the muskie's eyes are after dark and for a time leading up to dark because it's already dark down there. It's not anywhere near as dark under the water at night to a muskie as it is to us, we don't have that kind of eye structure. Add some moonlight...and factor in the muskie's fixed iris (like a camera shutter wide open all the time) and it becomes clear muskies don't see at all like we do and live in a much different world than us. What we see looking at a lure above the water is irrelevant in so many ways.
The most technically accurate definition of color is:
"Color is the visual effect that is caused by the spectral composition of the light emitted, transmitted, or reflected by objects."
"objects"= lure colors, that is, and the reflected light...where does that come from?
What if red has been filtered out and cannot be reflected back to the muskie's eyes, what color is a red lure then? How about an orange lure? Depends on how the compound color was made and the process in which it was applied to the lure body.
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And then there's the UV spectrum.
Back a long time ago we used to discuss this sort of thing quite a bit here. I miss those debates....
And then:
Mudpuppy - 9/19/2017 5:10 PM
Through The Fishes Eye, by Prof. John Clark, University of Penn is the best I found on the topic of color.
Mudpuppy
Me:
Sosin and Clark. Mark is an amazing angler. When I finally met him and told him how much the book meant to me, he said," So YOU are the guy who bought one!" Great sense of humor too.
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And then:
bwalsh - 9/21/2017 1:22 PM
I'd be curious to know why the green blade/black bucktail combination seems to work on the Chippewa Flowage. Seems lake-specific and doesn't seem to be used much elsewhere.
Me:
Green is yellow/blue compound color. If it's painted over a white surface it 'gathers' more light.
http://indianapublicmedia.org/amomentofscience/a-magical-glow/
As said, then there's the UV spectrum....
Black is always right, and no matter what color is with the black, will contrast so the fish can see it well. It may not be the chartreuse getting it done at all, depending. It also MAY be, depending on sky conditions. Cloudy day? No. Sunny day? yep.
fishpoop - 9/21/2017 1:24 PM
johnsonaaro2 - 9/21/2017 12:58 PM
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Pink turns to gray as it goes deeper in the water, as explained already in this thread and in the video links, so maybe the pink/white bucktail became gray/white bucktail and better matched the forage, Cisco's?? You tell me!
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One interesting point to this also is that fluorescent colors are able to reflect a much broader range of the light spectrum than conventional colors can. Maybe the pink blades were fluorescent and thus stayed bright where the other colors faded?
Nice thought but no they weren't fluorescent paints just basic pink.
Me:
White and red is famous for working well. It's basically white and black most of the time. Pink is basically gray.
And then:
horsehunter - 9/21/2017 5:02 PM
What nobody can prove one way or another is whether another bait style or colour at the EXACT time, speed, depth wouldn't have achieved the same desired result.
I caught a lot of fish back in the 70's when all my lures fit in a styrofoam minnow bucket now they won't all fit in the boat because I was drinking the Koolaid
I rarely use more than 4 lures in a days fishing
Me:
True, but why knowingly fish a lure the muskies will have trouble seeing? Just increases misses, follows, and will put fewer fish in the net. It's part of the equation, not the whole.
Horsehunter:
Whether my local stained lake or the very clear St Lawrence where i spend a lot of my time I'm not sure you could find a colour that a muskie couldn't see including my firetiger suicks that are now mostly paintless . Many times i have caught fish in the front of a boat and the person in the back of the boat has caught fish on a totally different colour. I also caught a muskie that appeared to be totally blind that seemed to be doing quite well.
As a side note I was told by Dr. Bruce Tufts Queens University that the biggest trigger for a lure regardless of colours was vertical bars
Me:
They have to see the bars for that to be a trigger. Totally different color doesn't mean either or both are maximized, and doesn't mean they are not. Knowing they are is the key.
Muskies can feed when blind, but not anywhere nearly as well. The other sensory organs adapt to a degree.
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And then some comments seem to argue I am saying something I CLEARLY was not. Why? Because folks respond to the last page and haven't read the rest. Happens all the time.
Bottom line, here's what I know.
Color. Contrast. I want the muskies I am fishing for to see the lure, as they are sight feeders. Pretty much the end of the story. Don't assume the color of the lure is even close to the same 5' down, and the color will be totally different depending on cloud cover, time of day, and season. I offered a 6 hour session in the courses I used to teach at Nicolet, and used a series of conditions recreated for the classroom to show folks how refraction, absorption, and particulate count effects color through the water column, and how that changes the available contrast for the background against which the fish see the lure.
Bottom line that:
The better they can see it, the better the entire process goes well.
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The whole 'action of the lure' has to do with pressure waves. Completely different discussion dealing with another sense fish use to hunt prey.
And one just as murky unless the entire subject matter is covered...and read, lots to debate.
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Location: Eastern Ontario | So I watched the You tube's linked in the biology thread mostly facts that I had read or heard before. It only strengthens MY PERSONAL belief that colour or fancy scale patterns , painted fins is the least important part of the equation.
As a side note I have no desire to target or catch muskies from depths greater than 30 feet and preferably much less. |
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| Anyone ever seen that Muskie with big red tumors over its eyes.
I believe a dude from Thornes got it, no eyes. 52" if I remember correctly. |
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| One hot summer day I caught 6 (small) Muskies in about 30 min below a dam on a all black pacemaker. My buddy threw the gold, dark green , and firetiger in same spot /same retrieve zero bites. Huge storm front was coming. Fish were goin nuts , but he still didn't get bit. Had some swirls but that's it
Edited by Martin79 10/30/2017 9:18 PM
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Location: Green Bay, WI | esoxaddict - 9/11/2017 3:35 PM
In a perfect world, the boat should match the color of your truck, including seats, carpet. etc. But when you're buying used, condition trumps all.
Unless it's brown. No brown boats. Looks like a giant turd...
I ordered a Ranger cover to go with the GREEN (mostly, some gray too) Ranger Angler boat I bought this past June. So Ranger makes me one, through the dealer I bought the boat from, and 8 weeks later...it gets delivered. So I pull it out of the box today because I need to cover the boat with it, and what color do you suppose it is?
Yup, brown.
So now I have a green boat with some gray trim and a nice little blue strip on the side, all covered with a brown cover. Yay.
I guess I need to call Ranger and find out who specified the color. If it's the dealer, then I have an issue with them. Not that color affects the functionality of the cover in the least of course, but it's sort of God awful to look a...a brown cover, with a green hull sticking out.
Sigh...
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Location: Green Bay, WI | Barphbag - 9/26/2017 9:29 AM
There are 2 editions of "Through the Fish's Eye"- one from 1973 and one from 2016. Anybody happen to know if the books are different or just a rerelease of the same book?
I have the hard copy from 1973, and last week I paid $15 for the Kindle version (2015). Thus far I haven't found any discrepancies. I haven't gone back through every page I had already read in the 1973 edition--but I did check a bunch of pages, and didn't see any difference in either the text or the figures in the book. I just find it more convenient to read the book on Kindle (52-yo eyes...), so that's why I went with the new version.
TB |
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| Thank you for sharing the very helpful information on this thread. |
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Location: Eastern Ontario | https://www.facebook.com/pecheqc/videos/679610468830050/?hc_ref=ARQw... |
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Location: Eastern Ontario | This shows what colour does but nothing to convince me that it matters to a muskie . It may be of interest to salmon and trout guys. I wish the demonstration had included white.
Edited by horsehunter 11/14/2017 7:02 AM
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Location: Green Bay, WI | Amazing video--thanks for posting it! I was very surprised to see how well the pink and orange colors fared at those depths. I would have thought that the orange would have faded away. I believe the various resources we've discussed in this thread indicated that orange doesn't show up well after about 40 feet. |
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | horsehunter - 11/14/2017 6:26 AM
This shows what colour does but nothing to convince me that it matters to a muskie . It may be of interest to salmon and trout guys. I wish the demonstration had included white.
The color of the lure above the water is not relevant, it's below that counts and what it actually looks like to the muskies.
I've been doing almost exactly that demo in seminars for over 20 years by lowering the light to imitate conditions in mildly turbid water as the sun rises across the sky and sets. Everyone knows this already from looking for their car in a parking lot as light goes down, the car colors go to shades between dark and light.
Something to note: That video was done in what appears to be extremely clear water on what appears to be a very bright sunny day. Add particulate and have some of that available light bounce off the surface or be blocked by clouds, and the color will be entirely gone way faster. Morning the sun angle allows for much of the light to bounce off the surface, same with evening.
Since contrast against the background which the lure is presented is a major issue for the fish to see it, one wants that to happen big time. Is the lure presenting a dark footprint against a light background or a light footprint against a dark background? That's what matters and is exactly what I've been saying (including how one can tell) all along.
Tom, it depends on HOW the orange was made. That one was made with way more yellow than red and may be infused in white plastic. Reverse that and it goes gray in the first 10 feet. |
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Location: Eastern Ontario | sworrall - 11/14/2017 9:39 AM
horsehunter - 11/14/2017 6:26 AM
This shows what colour does but nothing to convince me that it matters to a muskie . It may be of interest to salmon and trout guys. I wish the demonstration had included white.
The color of the lure above the water is not relevant, it's below that counts and what it actually looks like to the muskies.
Response ( don't know how this ran together )
I have never said the colour above the water (or below ) was relevant so colour shifts mean nothing to me especially as I have no desire to target fish below 25 or 30 feet. I firmly believe timing, location and presentation are much more important than colour or the make and model of a lure. I would have no problem fishing the rest of my time with all my productive lures sprayed totally flat black. If colour changes and cycling through numerous lures is what you like go for it . The way i fish satisfies me.
I posted the video because I thought some might find it interesting, not because i feel colour matters
Edited by horsehunter 11/14/2017 10:00 AM
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Location: Eastern Ontario | I have some seemingly identical lures and one has caught many fish and one has caught none. Initially both lures had relatively equal trolling hours often at the same time which leads me to conclude the triggering factor is something other than colour. Of course after time the unproductive lure gets less ans less time in the water ans the other lure continues to catch fish. This lure has been productive in both bright and cloudy days and also after dark. After checking these lures behind a waterwolf camera the productive lure is considerably louder, the lures do not contain rattles. |
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Location: oswego, il | I had talked to lsc charter captains who have said color can matter at times. I can remember one day for example a charter captain told us the only baits bit that day had mosltly red on them.
I understand the effects of color underwater and the study of the muskie's eye. Is there a way to know how the muskie's brain processes it? Different than a human?
Edited by ToddM 11/14/2017 10:31 AM
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Location: Green Bay, WI | sworrall - 11/14/2017 8:39 AM
Snip...
Something to note: That video was done in what appears to be extremely clear water on what appears to be a very bright sunny day. Add particulate and have some of that available light bounce off the surface or be blocked by clouds, and the color will be entirely gone way faster. Morning the sun angle allows for much of the light to bounce off the surface, same with evening.
Great point. Also, wind-driven wave action will dramatically reduce the amount of light penetrating to depth, and thus the appearance of color(s) at depth.
Tom, it depends on HOW the orange was made. That one was made with way more yellow than red and may be infused in white plastic. Reverse that and it goes gray in the first 10 feet.
Good thought, and I hadn't thought about the effect(s) of different pigment types or hues on the persistence of color to depth. But one does indeed need to consider these things when considering the appearance of one's lures underwater.
TB |
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Posts: 261
| Howdy,
All this being said, if you were starting from scratch and only wanted to have the colors you needed (not the ones you fell in love with because they look good) what would you go with? Lets say its on LOTW, anywhere but Whitefish Bay.
Take care,
Ruddiger |
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Location: Hayward, Wisconsin | ..."Great point. Also, wind-driven wave action will dramatically reduce the amount of light penetrating to depth, and thus the appearance of color(s) at depth."
According to Mr. Worrall, "waves make the wind blow". If so, then your statement above Mr. Betka is incorrect re "wind-driven wave action". |
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| So, wave driven wind action...? |
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| I like Ruddigers question. If the experts on color could answer that I am sure a bunch of us would appreciate it! |
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Location: Eastern Ontario | black with black stripes, jailbird, reverse jailbird, and black |
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Location: Green Bay, WI | Ruddiger - 11/15/2017 7:44 AM
Howdy,
All this being said, if you were starting from scratch and only wanted to have the colors you needed (not the ones you fell in love with because they look good) what would you go with? Lets say its on LOTW, anywhere but Whitefish Bay.
Take care,
Ruddiger
I think the consensus is to go with the color(s) that offers the most contrast between your lure against the background of the surrounding water column; not necessarily the prettiest lure you have in your tackle box. For example, if you're fishing shallower and the fish can see light at the depth your lure is running at, then go darker so that the lure is silhouetted against the lighter background from the sky. That sort of thing. If you want to add some color to the lure, then fine--but take note of which colors fade fastest at the depth you'll be fishing. Since reds and oranges disappear most quickly with depth, these are the colors you need to realize will be most affected by decreasing light levels, especially given the depths we commonly fish for muskies. These colors disappear by about 20-30 feet under the best conditions, but will likely fade much sooner in the "typical" conditions we normally fish in. In fact in water like we have over here in the southern part of Green Bay, I can't really see that any color will help until the fish gets within a few feet of the boat. The water is just that turbid most of the time.
One thing I've gleaned from the reading I've been doing these past few weeks is that in darker environments, predators seem to have a better ability to utilize the rod cells in their eyes than their prey does, thus giving them the advantage. I believe they have a larger rod density than their prey does, and they can also switch more quickly between the cone-dominated daytime vision, and the rod-dominated low-light vision. In fact muskies (and esocids in general, I think) have different types of both rods and cones--and also different arrangements (patterns) of these cells throughout the retina. It seems very complicated and I'm not quite sure how they figured out the behavioral implications, but the anatomy would be easy enough to define using both light and electron microscopy. So I suppose researchers can at least draw inferences about the fish's behavior based upon the anatomy. But my point is that (as Steve has correctly pointed out many times in the forum) contrast seems to be the king when he fish are relying mostly on rods to visually locate food in darker water.
Therefore I would look for a lure that you feel provides the action you prefer but also offers as much contrast as possible for the given depth, light conditions and water turbidity you're fishing. Then I'd roll with that for starters. Make observations, keep a log (notes) of your luck with those types of lures, and refine your offerings over time. If you approach it logically you can't help but run into success sooner or later.
TB
Edited by tcbetka 11/15/2017 6:49 PM
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Larry Ramsell - 11/15/2017 8:07 AM
..."Great point. Also, wind-driven wave action will dramatically reduce the amount of light penetrating to depth, and thus the appearance of color(s) at depth."
According to Mr. Worrall, "waves make the wind blow". If so, then your statement above Mr. Betka is incorrect re "wind-driven wave action".
That there is funny! |
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| I try to keep lure selection simple, so I focus on contrasting colors to the water clarity an environment conditions that effect lighting.
Basically, the idea I go with is to make it as easy as possible for the musky to locate the lure. |
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Location: Green Bay, WI | Beastly Backlash - 11/18/2017 12:30 AM
I try to keep lure selection simple, so I focus on contrasting colors to the water clarity an environment conditions that effect lighting.
Basically, the idea I go with is to make it as easy as possible for the musky to locate the lure.
Yup. Pretty hard to go wrong with that approach. |
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| For the most part I don't think lure color matters a whole lot. I think its more of a confidence thing. Personally I follow a few loose rules. Natural/dark colors in clear water and bright/light colors in darker water. I also like to throw white lures in low light conditions. |
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Location: Green Bay, WI | So contrast is key for you, is what you’re saying then?
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | PAriverangler - 11/21/2017 10:20 AM
For the most part I don't think lure color matters a whole lot. I think its more of a confidence thing. Personally I follow a few loose rules. Natural/dark colors in clear water and bright/light colors in darker water. I also like to throw white lures in low light conditions.
Sooooo, if your natural perch pattern lure has the green with a yellow base and the orange with a yellow base, is it a dark lure or a bright lure? All of them are no longer what we see above the water, and small things like how the colors on your lure are made can make a big difference in contrasting them against the sky conditions and can make them lose any real identity other than a nuetral/light/dark contrasting 'blob' moving through the water when particulate is present.
Many times the bright colors to your eyes are not so bright when one brings down the light.
I guess I need to shoot a video. I'll get after it once we return from deer camp and get our Clam Ice order picked up. |
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Location: oswego, il | I posted this on the last page so maybe it wasn't seen we know how a musky's eye works through our brain. Do we know how a musky's brain processes what it sees? Is it, why would it be the same as a human? |
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Location: oswego, il | Color can be critical. I can say that it WAS the reason we caught fish last weekend. |
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Location: Eastern Ontario | ToddM - 12/4/2017 7:28 AM
Color can be critical. I can say that it WAS the reason we caught fish last weekend.
Please explain ....not sure I can be convinced |
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Location: oswego, il | Easy, the lure caught the fish, i had another one in a different color, nothing, until i replaced it with a second in the same color did i catch fish on the second lure. Color was 100% the difference in our success. It is also not the first time i or others have seen it. I will also say this is not 100% of the time, days, times of year can be different.
Again i raise the question. We know what a musky sees based on how our brain processes it. Does a muskie's brain process what it sees different than us? My suspicion based on living in a different environment is yes.
Edited by ToddM 12/4/2017 9:47 AM
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Todd,
Not really, no. The color receptor cells in the fish's eye are pretty much what should be expected, and much more is understood about fish vision than you might think. They are capable of seeing the color....if it is available due to light penetration/availability and it's the proper timing to have the cone cells extended and rod cells retracted, and muskies are 'sight feeders' which means seeing the lure is very important.
I see there's still a poor understanding of what happens to color in low light, Gotta get some time to shoot that video. |
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Location: oswego, il | Steve, i complety understand what has been said about what happens to color under water, how a muskie's eye works but they are interpreted by how our brain, not the muskie's brain processes it. Can it be different?
Edited by ToddM 12/4/2017 2:38 PM
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Define 'different'. We see colors differently than muskies do, due to our much clearer environment, for sure. The fish doesn't have the intellect to 'prefer' one color over another, but 1000 years of evolution has created situations in some waters where a particular pattern is more effective than others, and those that work well in one area of the country do not work well in others.
We see green food and can reason that we are seeing a particular color and shape and reason why it is less green at 5 PM than non, etc. The fish sees green or whatever color it is in low light and reacts....or doesn't. Muskies eat, rest, and reproduce, and everything past that is pretty much out. Tiny brains.... |
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Location: oswego, il | Steve what i am trying to ask is if a muskies brain processes the input differently than we do. I am not talking anything on an intelligent level, does a musky see colors the way we see colors? I suspect they do not? Can they see it better, worse or the same that we can? |
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Location: Aurora | sworrall - 12/4/2017 4:37 PM
Muskies eat, rest, and reproduce, and everything past that is pretty much out. Tiny brains....
You left out "avoidance behavior". Something else they also exhibit after painful/traumatic experiences.
~helpful smile~ |
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | ToddM - 12/4/2017 6:04 PM
Steve what i am trying to ask is if a muskies brain processes the input differently than we do. I am not talking anything on an intelligent level, does a musky see colors the way we see colors? I suspect they do not? Can they see it better, worse or the same that we can?
It's probably more similar than different. The 'color' cone cells exist in our eyes, and many other critters too, yet do not in many others, like deer. If the cells are similar, it follows what they see is similar. What they 'think' of it is, I am sure, a lot less. |
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Sidejack - 12/4/2017 8:52 PM
sworrall - 12/4/2017 4:37 PM
Muskies eat, rest, and reproduce, and everything past that is pretty much out. Tiny brains....
You left out "avoidance behavior". Something else they also exhibit after painful/traumatic experiences.
~helpful smile~
No, didn't leave that out at all as I don't believe I was listing all indicated 'behaviors', obviously.
Don't take too much stock in that with muskies, or catching them twice would be...difficult, I submit. Far more difficult than it is. The whole premise of CPR is to leave that fish for others to catch...right? |
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Location: Aurora | So, don't take stock in all of the articles citing the importance of doing something different, modifying baits, fishing elsewhere, finding new ways to trigger, etc? Also, what about the research studies of radio tagged fish that leave the weed beds for open water when the tourney pressure begins? |
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | I think you are way overstating (and at the same time understating) the issue(s) and are, perhaps, not considering the big picture on what you are calling avoidance behavior in muskies. Been a long time since we delved into muskie behavior in great detail, maybe that's not a bad place to start since it's drop dead Winter here starting tonight.
If the tagging studies you are referring to (haven't seen them) state the fish leave the weeds, then I assume we all need to stop fishing weeds when the pressure is on and chase those fish down.
In fact, as of late, seems to me the fish many times should bail out of the open water judging from the number of anglers hitting that pattern. |
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Location: Aurora | I didn't state anything, just added something i read in the past for consideration that i thought you overlooked and then i asked some questions that were based on things i also read in the past. Somebody else called it avoidance behavior and i shared it without considering any sized picture, big or small. I also don't presume to know how stupid or smart 15 to 25+ year old fish are or how good their eye sight/colour perception is in different conditions.
However, I imagine that underestimating them would limit my knowledge, success, and interest. |
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Location: oswego, il | Steve, thanks for the explanation on brain power, that is a good explanation, what i was looking for.
Edited by ToddM 12/5/2017 7:03 AM
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Sidejack - 12/5/2017 1:08 AM
I didn't state anything, just added something i read in the past for consideration that i thought you overlooked and then i asked some questions that were based on things i also read in the past. Somebody else called it avoidance behavior and i shared it without considering any sized picture, big or small. I also don't presume to know how stupid or smart 15 to 25+ year old fish are or how good their eye sight/colour perception is in different conditions.
However, I imagine that underestimating them would limit my knowledge, success, and interest.
Got it. Let's roll with that and see where this goes. A popular term bordering a description of avoidance behavior is 'conditioning'. How do muskies become 'conditioned' to all facets of fishing pressure...or do they? |
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Location: Aurora | According to this study, they do get conditioned to some aspects.
http://muskieamerica.com/Features/cfmsy1.htm
Scroll down to "Actual Evidence of "Conditioning"
Edited by Sidejack 12/5/2017 9:18 AM
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Location: oswego, il | Not a website i would care to frequent. They have done some attacking. |
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Location: Aurora | It appears to be posted from some other source so m'sure it's available elsewhere if politics are an issue. |
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | That study was completely discredited a few years back, the entire affair is in the MuskieFIRST archives. Some good folks got wound up with some not so honest folks in that mess so on the surface it looked OK and even Musky Hunter bit initially. Unfortunately it's pretty much bunk. |
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| The real study you should be looking at SideJack was the noble beast project. Lots of good data.
If I remember right he catch's the same muskie on the same spot with the same lure a couple times.
IMHO... color matters. If there was no color to all lures what would you have? How can you achieve the best contrast and make your lure stick out against the background without any regards to color? |
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Location: Aurora | Thanks, I'll take a looky-loo at the NB project.
Can't git enuff info during winternet and who knows, maybe they are as stupid as you think they are, Steve.
Regarding colour, my favourite will always be clear.
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Good old anthropomorphism. |
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Location: Aurora | Innate tendency brother.
Almost like wave-driven wind!!
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | For sure, that one is REAL. |
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| Biggest difference color makes is your confidence |
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Perhaps if one fully understands what color/contrast/light penetration means to the muskie seeing the lure then choosing the correct color pattern for the best contrast makes that so. |
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Posts: 1970
| What makes you sure that you want your lure to be the best contrast?, perhaps sometimes they see your high contrast bait too well and decide not to eat it... |
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Where did you get 'high contrast' from the conversation? Please describe what you mean, perhaps you misinterpret what is meant by 'best'....
How much detail do you think the muskie can see, even in very clear water? |
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Location: new richmond, wi. & isle, mn | What makes anyone believe a fish has a lesser sense of color interpretation than you. White light physics blah,blah,blah. How human of you. Next you'll tell me humans have better sense of direction than a monarch butterfly..... |
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Location: oswego, il | jchiggins - 12/6/2017 10:36 PM
What makes anyone believe a fish has a lesser sense of color interpretation than you. White light physics blah,blah,blah. How human of you. Next you'll tell me humans have better sense of direction than a monarch butterfly.....
Have you ever seen a monarch butterfly stop and ask for directions, looking at the map at a rest area or have google maps up on their smart phone? Me neither. It is fun to watch them text and fly though, they are just as bad at it as we are driving. |
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Location: Eastern Ontario | T3clay - 12/6/2017 9:26 PM
Biggest difference color makes is your confidence
agreed |
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Location: Northern Illinois | Confidence is definitely key to the fisherman...not that it matters to the fish. |
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Confidence created by knowing the best possible presentation is in play is the best kind. |
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Posts: 1970
| No such thing as best one color for all the muskies in the lake for the exact same conditions... no such thing as 1 best color for an entire 12 hr day... get location, depth, speed and preferred size correct and you are well on your way to success. I'll let you pick any color in the rainbow in any condition you want if you let me pick the "important stuff" ..I know I'm catching fish. |
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | IAJustin - 12/8/2017 11:25 AM
No such thing as best one color for all the muskies in the lake for the exact same conditions... no such thing as 1 best color for an entire 12 hr day... get location, depth, speed and preferred size correct and you are well on your way to success. I'll let you pick any color in the rainbow in any condition you want if you let me pick the "important stuff" ..I know I'm catching fish.
The question was does color matter, and the answer is a resounding YES, but there's a lot more too the answer than that.
I will never understand why muskie anglers don't want to know what makes muskies tick a to z and how that relates to fishing success.
'No such thing as best one color for all the muskies in the lake for the exact same conditions'
Exactly. That's the point.
' get location, depth, speed and preferred size correct and you are well on your way to success.'
All part of the equation, no question, except one question...what is 'preferred size' and how do determine that?
'I'll let you pick any color in the rainbow in any condition you want if you let me pick the "important stuff" ..I know I'm catching fish'
That's great. I am not happy with fishing a pattern and presenting a footprint to the fish without knowing the details of why it works so to me understanding muskie vision and the environment they live in IS important stuff; but that's me. Not saying you need to be, so perish the thought. |
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Location: oswego, il | Steve those are great answers. In my earlier post about color, it was critical in that situation. I had an idea why from previous experience. It was also just one piece of the puzzle in the presentation, albeit a deal breaking one. |
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| Steve, I probably pick preferred size the same way you pick preferred color |
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Doubt it. |
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| You are probably right, I do agree color is very important crappie fishing. |
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| I have no doubt that certain colors work better in certain types of water under certain conditions. I've experienced it too many times for that not to be true. I think the mistake people make is believing that picking the "wrong" color will cause muskies to shy away from your lures. In my opinion, picking the "wrong color" just increases the odds that an interested fish might take a shot at your lure and miss due to a lack of a good visual cue as to where that lure actually is in the water. |
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Location: WI | This has been quite an interesting discussion here with lots of different opinions. It would be nice to see some kind of chart put together showing what type of lure color for a particular day sunny or cloudy with different water conditions stained, clear etc. I think for a lot of us it would be very helpful. Obviously knowing that black could be used in most conditions. Anything would be helpful to increase our musky fishing passion and success rates. |
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Location: oswego, il | There is no hard and fast rule. Mood of the fish has to be considered as well. Then you have changing environment. Algae blooms, muddy water, ect and then throw in water temp. It all matters in how color may or may not be important.
One lake i find intersting is LSC. So many variations of color in the lake at all times. Gin bottle clear, mud, a mix of the two, the turqoise green water from the river, green water from the cutoff. The fish thrive and the fishing good in all of it. |
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Posts: 1970
| Is it possible that a 55” fish has a better chance at being fooled by an offering that it actually can’t see well? Why are many big fish fooled at night? Maybe the real question is when does color matter muskie fishing ? It’s the last piece of the puzzle and your sample size in a given day is so small, how do you know if you where correct? Hypothetically you threw black and white all day because you had a great day, you caught 5 muskies!! All 38-42” ..., what if you threw hot pink all day and only caught two, that 42” you would have caught on any color because he was sucidal and your new PB a big fat 52” because he’ll only follow your black and white offering on this day? For anyone to say they know what the best color is for an individual spot and or an individual fish for that exact time of day is comical to me, for me color is the final piece, getting the location, boat control,speed, action, size , boatside technique and on and on is so much more critical.. I got a 53” this year jigging 25’ down over 40’, bait was a solid “tan” color, I have a lot of confidence that fish would have ate white or black too ... but who really knows ??
Edited by IAJustin 12/10/2017 9:21 AM
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| Sometimes I think we go about it all wrong. "Wow that lure looks like a perch, and there's perch in this lake. Let's use that..."
Perch have evolved in their environment to be difficult to see so they don't get eaten. All prey has. Sooo are the muskies eating our lures because they look like food? Or are they eating them because they are easy to catch compared to food? |
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | IAJustin - 12/10/2017 9:18 AM
Is it possible that a 55” fish has a better chance at being fooled by an offering that it actually can’t see well? Muskies are terribly near sighted Why are many big fish fooled at night? Fish, including Muskies, have rod vision in play extending as cone vision retracts every morning, and the reverse in the evening on a clock, not calendar schedule, which are extremely sensitive to light allowing them to see quite well after dark Maybe the real question is when does color matter muskie fishing ? It matters all the time because most of your lures are painted with compound colors It’s the last piece of the puzzle and your sample size in a given day is so small, how do you know if you where correct? Knowledge of the underwater world, light penetration, how colors on lures are made, and what the lures look like in low to direct light, how much particulate is there, and what angle the sun is at will dictate what footprint you want the lure to offer Hypothetically you threw black and white all day because you had a great day, you caught 5 muskies!! All 38-42” ..., what if you threw hot pink all day and only caught two, that 42” you would have caught on any color because he was sucidal and your new PB a big fat 52” because he’ll only follow your black and white offering on this day? You are getting close to stating some facts in your effort to discredit the science behind the relationship between light and water and the effect of available light and the angle of same to the surface of the water. Once this is understood, color options are pretty simple, toss a dark lure against a light background, and a light lure against a dark background. The paint color is only relevant as we see it above the water in direct sunlight in crystal clear water under 10' of depth For anyone to say they know what the best color is for an individual spot and or an individual fish for that exact time of day is comical to me, for me color is the final piece, getting the location, boat control,speed, action, size , boatside technique and on and on is so much more critical Actually, you again are discrediting the fact muskies are sight feeders and what they see, in the final attack we call 'eating' is quite important. I got a 53” this year jigging 25’ down over 40’, bait was a solid “tan” color, I have a lot of confidence that fish would have ate white or black too ... but who really knows So what's the base color in brown or tan? 'purple and yellow; blue and orange(Orange is red and yellow); or red and green (green is yellow and blue)' Knowing whether, in low light, that lure offers a 'dark' profile or 'light' profile, may allow you to do the same thing again with total confidence the fish has the best chance possible to eat that lure. THAT's the point of understanding light and water and muskie vision, contrast. I think that's been said several times in the conversation. That far down the lure will be a shade of gray. Dark, or light gray? Check the lure against other 'tan' lures from other builders in very low light. You may be surprised at the differences.Look at the parking lot at the store when you go shopping in the evening. Nice bright car colors in the sunlight. Then look at the same after dark in the low light of the parking lot lamps. Lots of cars and trucks that are...dark, or light.( ?? Are you a deer hunter? Is what the deer is capable of seeing important to you? Different motivation (to become invisible to the deer) but I have talked to hunters who believe camo is all that matters. Dark camo against a light background? Move a little and you are busted. Wrong detergent? Busted. Light colored gloves with that dark camo? Busted if your hand moves while the deer is looking your way. And deer don't perceive color well at all. I don't want to hope the deer doesn't see me, I want to do my best to make sure it doesn't.
So take what you will from the conversation, but the underwater world, light penetration, and fish vision is something worth the effort to learn. Addict, you are close. Most lures are so far from 'natural' it should scream DO NOT EAT to a muskie. The reason lures work is the amount of stimulus in the footprint, and the response available on any given day at any given time. Maximize the stimulus, maximize the response.
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| All I can say is many of my best baits are wood colored because the muskies have chewed all the paint off. I have a few lakes my best results are solid white in ever condition possible, I literally will never throw anything else.. with partners throwing every color imaginable I don’t get outfished..maybe I just have the “action” these fish want.. I guess we can agree to disagree about deer hunting too, as long as I have the wind in my favor/ control scent, I’ll go deer hunting in a hot pink jumpsuit and move when they aren’t looking, camo is over rated .. another rabbit hole for whitefirst ?? |
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Dark lure or light lure, that's all that really matters quite a bit of the time, which is the point of the entire conversation. The 'why' of that is the basis of understanding it. Had a professor once who told us he probably would not be able to get the information in the book (sociology) to stick well, but he would do his best to 'teach us how to learn'. By covering the 'why' he helped me better understand the 'how' and most of us did really well in a course very few wanted to take or felt would make any difference in our future work life. We were wrong.
Better to explain best as is possible what makes something tick.
Ever hear the axiom 'dark day, dark lure light day, light lure'(Jason Lucas, book from a very long time ago)? Why has that been proven out over the last 7 decades? Why is a dark day dark? Cloudy. What direction do fish generally look at the lure? Especially with muskies, up. There it is. |
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Location: Ashland WI | Steve, either the sky is blue (light) or gray/cloudy (light). Wouldn't that mean that black is always the best? Seems like it would have the most contrast under any condition. |
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | 14ledo81 - 12/10/2017 1:14 PM
Steve, either the sky is blue (light) or gray/cloudy (light). Wouldn't that mean that black is always the best? Seems like it would have the most contrast under any condition.
Water does funny stuff to light when looking up from underneath the surface. The deeper one goes under water, the more violet to purple the surface becomes as a result of all the refraction going on. Even just a couple feet reduces the blue we see to near violet, allowing bright/light colored lures to really contrast nicely.
Black is basically the absence of color ( Black is not a color; a black object absorbs all the colors of the visible spectrum and reflects none of them to the eyes, but may yet reflect some light if not true black) and always contrasts nicely. Notice if you will it's hard to find a muskie lure without some black in it, but many times it's on the TOP and sides up high, not the bottom, and muskies never see it. Same with white, except that is the presence of all the colors. There are a ton of lures with a broad white belly. Unless the bait rolls like mad, or dives very deep, that lure is primarily white to a muskie. Note most fish have white bellys.
Is it better to look just like prey fish that are camouflaged? Lots of those swimming around all the time, I want my lure to look different, which in most cases it does no matter the paint applied. Not a single 'natural' lure has ever been produced. |
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Location: Tampa, Florida | Hmm, I'm learning a lot from this thread. Thanks for the info, guys! |
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Location: Elroy, Wisconsin | Well if color doesn't mean much, I sure spent my kids inheritance foolishly.
Mudpuppy |
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Location: New Carlisle, IN | I don’t understand the bright day bright bait, dark day dark bait for Musky. When I first started working on a boat in FL, my Captain til me the opposite. Sunny day dark bait, cloudy day bright bait. Most fish are looking up at you baits, if it’s sunny, they have a hard time seeing the silhouette of a bright bait and vice versa. Why is it different for Musky? Black has always been my favorite color for any day, just because I think it is the most visible and makes the best silhouette. The white baits I’ve used in the green water I fish stand out a lot too when it’s overcast. As far as color and depth goes, my bright red weight belt would be completely gray at 30’ when diving. I don’t know if that helps anyone ore not but red is the first color to go, which is why so many bottom fish in the ocean are red. Blue is the last color to go so open water fish were mostly blue on the back because they hunt from below and the blue made them hard to see when looking down, and white on the belly so they were harder to see from below. Most Musky fishi g is relatively shallow, so I don’t think the bright colors get lost very often. Red is still red at 10’ |
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| #*^@ great fireside read on a Saturday a.m.
thanks, |
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Posts: 32789
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Ryan21 - 12/15/2017 11:25 AM
I don’t understand the bright day bright bait, dark day dark bait for Musky. When I first started working on a boat in FL, my Captain til me the opposite. Sunny day dark bait, cloudy day bright bait. Most fish are looking up at you baits, if it’s sunny, they have a hard time seeing the silhouette of a bright bait and vice versa. Why is it different for Musky? Black has always been my favorite color for any day, just because I think it is the most visible and makes the best silhouette. The white baits I’ve used in the green water I fish stand out a lot too when it’s overcast. As far as color and depth goes, my bright red weight belt would be completely gray at 30’ when diving. I don’t know if that helps anyone ore not but red is the first color to go, which is why so many bottom fish in the ocean are red. Blue is the last color to go so open water fish were mostly blue on the back because they hunt from below and the blue made them hard to see when looking down, and white on the belly so they were harder to see from below. Most Musky fishi g is relatively shallow, so I don’t think the bright colors get lost very often. Red is still red at 10’
'Water does funny stuff to light when looking up from underneath the surface. The deeper one goes under water, the more violet to purple the surface becomes as a result of all the refraction going on. Even just a couple feet reduces the blue we see to near violet, allowing bright/light colored lures to really contrast nicely. '
Try it next year, get down about 10' and look up at the sky color, IF you can see the sky through the surface at all from that depth on that lake. Red is certainly not still red in 10' unless the water is absolutely gin clear and calm at high noon. |
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Posts: 1529
| yes colors matter. c,mon guys I paint baits for a livin lol. |
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Posts: 239
Location: Elroy, Wisconsin | If color doesn't matter, listen to this. Three 10" Jakes out same depth, same speed.
Three muskies boated in two hours. 39, 42, 46. All on yellow and black stripe jailbird pattern. They liked that color that day. Dark water, sunshine , nearly calm. That lure was picked out by a novice in my boat. Used it a lot since on all kinds of water including LOTW (52 1/2"). Very successful. I'm beginning to wonder if you can have too bright a lure, don't think so.
Mudpuppy |
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Posts: 1970
| Color may have been the difference? Problem with your “theory” is those three jakes aren’t running exactly the same , guaranteed they each “sound/vibrate” slightly different to a fish, I have about (20) 10” Jake’s , and some just catch fish better than others of the same color .. |
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Posts: 1636
| Great post. Thank you all for consuming my time with something pleasant to read.
Certain colors do and will in fact, out-perform others at different times of the year.
Like Steve mentioned... it just might be a matter of dark and light... but, there is something special going on at times when it comes to certain colors. |
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Posts: 1425
Location: St. Lawrence River | Mudpuppy - 12/17/2017 12:19 PM
If color doesn't matter, listen to this. Three 10" Jakes out same depth, same speed.
Three muskies boated in two hours. 39, 42, 46. All on yellow and black stripe jailbird pattern. They liked that color that day. Dark water, sunshine , nearly calm. That lure was picked out by a novice in my boat. Used it a lot since on all kinds of water including LOTW (52 1/2"). Very successful. I'm beginning to wonder if you can have too bright a lure, don't think so.
Mudpuppy
Not all lures are the same.. |
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Posts: 2752
Location: Mauston, Wisconsin | Yes!
Have fun!
Al |
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Posts: 75
| Curious what this discussion of color means in terms of choice of line color. I have had line on my reels that is tan, gray, green, pure white and black and white woven. I would have thought that matching the color of the water most often fished would be best, but now, maybe not? Maybe white is best except on bright days? Maybe its different for topwaters and bucktails as opposed to deeper water trolling or jigging? Does water color/clarity make a difference? I'm sure line color doesn't matter nearly as much as lure color, but assuming that it possibly could have some effect, what would the best choice be if you would like the line to "disappear"? (other than mono or flouro) |
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Posts: 20179
Location: oswego, il | I doubt line color matters in musky fishing. I have seen it matter on my leadcore for salmon. I had a 3.core for example that would not catch fish until i reversed the core. Turquoise was the end color, when i reversed it, tan was the end color, now it catches fish. |
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Location: Eastern Ontario | Todd are you not running a 20 or 30 foot leader on your cores? |
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Location: oswego, il | Around 25ft of 30lb flouro. |
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Posts: 20179
Location: oswego, il | Last weekend on LSC, 6 of the 7 fish we got came on one white bait. We had other colors of the same bait not one rip. It does happen from time to time but not consistently. |
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Location: 31 | I'm assuming you put other white lures out… if it was mainly the white color, why no fish on those? This can be argued both ways; Last year we were consistently banging fish on one particular lure and then after back-to-back fish and another quick rip my boat partner could take no more and started switching the spread to include several identical lures in the same color pattern… guess which lure caught the next fish. It would appear that based on that experience it was the action of that particular lure and had little to do with the color (I could actually see the difference in the action).
Edited by Jerry Newman 6/28/2018 7:35 PM
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Posts: 1209
| sworrall - 12/12/2017 6:28 PM
14ledo81 - 12/10/2017 1:14 PM
Steve, either the sky is blue (light) or gray/cloudy (light). Wouldn't that mean that black is always the best? Seems like it would have the most contrast under any condition.
Water does funny stuff to light when looking up from underneath the surface. The deeper one goes under water, the more violet to purple the surface becomes as a result of all the refraction going on. Even just a couple feet reduces the blue we see to near violet, allowing bright/light colored lures to really contrast nicely.
Black is basically the absence of color ( Black is not a color; a black object absorbs all the colors of the visible spectrum and reflects none of them to the eyes, but may yet reflect some light if not true black ) and always contrasts nicely. Notice if you will it's hard to find a muskie lure without some black in it, but many times it's on the TOP and sides up high, not the bottom, and muskies never see it. Same with white, except that is the presence of all the colors. There are a ton of lures with a broad white belly. Unless the bait rolls like mad, or dives very deep, that lure is primarily white to a muskie. Note most fish have white bellys.
Is it better to look just like prey fish that are camouflaged? Lots of those swimming around all the time, I want my lure to look different, which in most cases it does no matter the paint applied. Not a single 'natural' lure has ever been produced.
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Location: oswego, il | Jerry Newman - 6/28/2018 7:33 PM
I'm assuming you put other white lures out… if it was mainly the white color, why no fish on those? This can be argued both ways; Last year we were consistently banging fish on one particular lure and then after back-to-back fish and another quick rip my boat partner could take no more and started switching the spread to include several identical lures in the same color pattern… guess which lure caught the next fish. It would appear that based on that experience it was the action of that particular lure and had little to do with the color (I could actually see the difference in the action).
Jerry in this instance we had lures out in colors that do well out there, better than the white one i had out. I had another one same color got a fish on it and another white bait. No other colors hit. Some of it could have been action but color did make a difference last weekend. |
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Posts: 75
| Was it a bright sunny day? |
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Location: oswego, il | bwalsh - 6/29/2018 7:13 AM
Was it a bright sunny day?
No as a matter of fact the water was dirty it was cloudy and raining off and on. This area of the lake another color does much better they didn't get a sniff. I have had the white one out before in this area with limited success, this time it's all they wanted.
Edited by ToddM 6/29/2018 7:18 AM
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Location: 31 | Hey Todd, I'm just jacking with you a little bit... the problem I've always had with attributing some muskie action to color is the sample size, it's not like were fishing for walleye or salmon. I agree that if you're an astute angler you're always looking for a pattern or an edge with your bait and color is the most obvious part of the equation, especially when you're buying them. I'm sure you also agree that some of them will have their own unique action/vibration... problem is there's no way to tell that until you put the lure in the water and catch (or more often don't catch) fish.
The lure I mentioned above was a highly modified ____ and a stone cold killer last year, so during the winter I tried to assemble about 25 of them knowing that (if I was lucky) I might end up with a few that had that same fish catching ability. After testing them this spring I ended up with four more that looked close to the same action to me and those were promoted to the A team, but it remains to be seen if the muskie's agree with my assessment.
I don't doubt that a particular color can make a difference at times... but if was it truly just the color wouldn't a white slammer produce as well as the white believer? In my mind color is about as relevant as moon phase and the action of the bait is along the lines of weather. I don't doubt that color (or moon phase) can enhance things, difference there is you know when the major is going to happen... not so much with color. I do seem to do better with contrasting colors and wide contrasting bars, but on the few that have survived until the paint gets almost chewed off they still produce about the same. |
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Posts: 759
Location: Ames, Iowa | I fish Leech- clear water. I fish a lot of topwaters, caught many fish on em, and have faith in them there. I also throw and troll a lot of shiny crankbaits, and shiny bladed spinnerbaits, hoping the flash catches the eye of the fish, but I get very few follows.
I guess I should stop wasting my time with those. I get more follows on a jailbird Suick or any Bulldawg. I should probably only fish those. Most of us have 5 or 6 confidence baits- I wonder if they have something in common. Mine are all designed to fish in the top 2 feet of the water column.
I think contrast and bait action and shape is more important than color, but I think that where the bait is (top, middle, bottom) has more importance than anything. Here is what I could defend: 1) Color doesn't matter on topwaters or on baits that run less than two feet deep like bucktails because they just appear dark against a lit sky, dark at night. 2) Color doesn't matter on deeper baits- they lose their color. 3) Contrast in mid level baits matters more than color. 4) Action and shape of all baits anywhere in the water column matters more than color or contrast. |
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Posts: 612
| djwilliams - 6/29/2018 1:46 PM
I fish Leech- clear water. I fish a lot of topwaters, caught many fish on em, and have faith in them there. I also throw and troll a lot of shiny crankbaits, and shiny bladed spinnerbaits, hoping the flash catches the eye of the fish, but I get very few follows.
I guess I should stop wasting my time with those. I get more follows on a jailbird Suick or any Bulldawg. I should probably only fish those. Most of us have 5 or 6 confidence baits- I wonder if they have something in common. Mine are all designed to fish in the top 2 feet of the water column.
I think contrast and bait action and shape is more important than color, but I think that where the bait is (top, middle, bottom) has more importance than anything. Here is what I could defend: 1) Color doesn't matter on topwaters or on baits that run less than two feet deep like bucktails because they just appear dark against a lit sky, dark at night. 2) Color doesn't matter on deeper baits- they lose their color. 3) Contrast in mid level baits matters more than color. 4) Action and shape of all baits anywhere in the water column matters more than color or contrast.
That's very interesting. I fish Conesus and Chautauqua primarily after May. From the surface you can see down ~ (4 to 6)', depends on winds and algae bloom (if any). I've luck with baits that dive like DDD's and Depthraiders. They are fished on the cast down at (10 to 15)'. I also fish some spinners and bucktails but I let them sink for 10 or seconds prior to retrieve. |
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Posts: 20179
Location: oswego, il | Jerry, i don't think lure color matters most of the time, at least a specific lure color. At times i have seen it make all the difference. I agree on one bait having a magic mojo, just the right action. I have a few of those too. |
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Posts: 8719
| Used to have a nice private spot for crappies, some current and a brush pile. I'd fish 2 rods with the identical setup. 1/32 oz. jig, twister tail, fathead, 6'-0" from the bobber stop to the jig. One orange/orange and one white/white. Weeks of this, and the orange jig outfished the white by 6:1. I switched this and that, no change. Went to orange on the second rod, and blam. Fish every cast. Crappie fishing over a brush pile? Color matters.
Muskie fishing?
Bah.
The lures that work just #*^@ work. Contrast? Yes. Actual specific color? Seen it happen, but not to the extent where I would believe the color made a big difference.
I have a few lures that just #*^@ WORK. I'll fish them anywhere under any conditions, because they just... #*^@... work...
What they do and how and why? A bit of a mystery to be honest. They just #*^@ WORK. |
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Posts: 833
| IMO color is the last thing I to change when ironing out presentation. Consider the classic formula for musky:
Location + Timing + Presentation = Fish
Color is part of Presentation, but probably (In my opinion) the least important variable as opposed to say TYPE and SIZE. Am I fishing slow finesse style lures that sit in the zone or am I fishing in line baits that are meant to cover water for an aggressive fish? From there the next question is profile / size. I do not think I've ever had to change colors to get the bite after I've gotten it dialed to TYPE and PROFILE. Usually it is just TYPE.
As always with this sport: Your Mileage May Vary! |
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Posts: 23
| Depth and speed matter the most. Color is more for the angler than the fish. Pretty paint jobs sell to the fisherman not the fish. Coming from a guy who paints his own baits, I like the pretty paint better myself. |
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Posts: 8719
| If color mattered as much as we think, lures would stop working when the paint gets chewed off. |
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