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Location: Apparently where the Muskie aren't | I'm more specifically asking about how deep a Muskie will come from to eat a lure in the top 2ft of the water colum. The open water trolling thread got my thoughts going. Now I'm sure it depends on how hungry the fish is but is there any other factors? |
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Location: Contrarian Island | anythings possible but I have seen muskies come up from the bottom in 25 feet of water to smash a bait in the top 2 feet of water... 20 feet to them is a few tail kicks... |
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Location: Grand Rapids, MI | Agree with BN. At times when I've been able to see a long distance, I've see fish that were 25'+ off to the side of a lure engage and eat. |
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Location: Contrarian Island | agree with Will..back in about 1998 I was on Lac Seul, fired a jackpot out to some reeds... I saw a musky wake up from at least 25 feet, more like 40 to the left and hunt it down and smash it... their lateral line is amazing.. |
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Same as Will and Brad. I fish very clear water in the Fall, and have seen fish rocket in from a long way off. |
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Posts: 815
Location: Waukee, IA | I have no fun anecdotes about muskies, but I have seen a wake come screaming at my topwater from 30+ feet away while smallmouth fishing. If they're hungry active no distance is too far, as long as the fish are aware of the bait |
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Posts: 1126
Location: Minnesota. | We watched a pretty large musky chase a fish it wanted very near and also on top for approx. 20 yds. or more -- and it wasn't a straight-shot in the chase.
That fish wasn't gonna get eaten and that muskie wasn't gonna allow it to escape!! It was pretty impressive... |
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Posts: 386
| To this day my most memorable fish was when my creeper had just hit the water and the fish blew up about 70' away, took about 2 seconds for her to fall in behind it and another nano-second to eat it....I think she was hungry. |
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Posts: 8729
| Seen them turn and cover 50 - 70 ft in a matter of seconds. No idea how far they'll go, but they can get there in a hurry. Pretty sure that if there's a fish within 50 ft of your cast it knows your lure is there.
Edited by esoxaddict 6/1/2017 11:56 AM
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| BNelson - 6/1/2017 8:58 AM
anythings possible but I have seen muskies come up from the bottom in 25 feet of water to smash a bait in the top 2 feet of water... 20 feet to them is a few tail kicks...
This. Especially when they're in a positive/aggressive mood.
One of, if not the biggest tigers I've seen, came up from the bottom (15-17 ft) and hit a tail at the boat-just before going into the L. Didn't see it come up from the bottom, but from the angle (maybe 100-115 degrees) the fish hit at, and with the amount of speed it came in (with it's mouth completely wide open)-it obviously came from good depth. Moments like this make me wish I wore a Go-Pro.
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Location: oswego, il | Everything depends on the mood of the fish. They can and will cover some serious ground, other times ignore a fish or a bait inches away. Once on lake waubesa, seen a musky on the bottom in 15ft of water, pointed towards deep water. I wanted to present a bait to it just as soon as the boat moved away from it. I fired my squirko away from the fish into 3ft of water. The fish immediately turned rushed to the bait, followed it all the way to the boat and never ate it.
Edited by ToddM 6/1/2017 12:11 PM
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Location: Minnesota. | ToddM - 6/1/2017 12:10 PM
Everything depends on the mood of the fish.
Yep. A couple seasons back I was out with a friend/resort owner for an evening getting shown some "stuff". We near this island and he told me to cast "....right up close to that big, round rock up on the water's edge".
I put a cast with my Globe out about 4 ft from the rock, not wanting to hit shore. He said "Nope, closer..." Next cast was a foot closer. He says "Watch..." and he put his 4-5" long Flaptail right directly in front of that rock (if he didn't hit it!) and the water exploded...
Methinks "Seriously??????"
I own 4 Flap-tails now...
I still shake my head thinking about that! He knows, he lives on the lake! He came dangerously close to hitting dry rocks! |
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| On the same note, I've seen an inactive fish ignore a live sucker presented literally 12 inches from it's mouth. Fish mood matters!
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Location: Apparently where the Muskie aren't | Thanks guys I would agree that mood is a big part of it. If the fish is negative it won't eat no matter what. This kind of debunked my theory that you have to get the bait exactly where the fish are. Specifically depth wise. If I see fish in 25' plus the first thing that comes to my mind is, what bait do I have that runs that deep. But after reading you comments that's clearly not the case and a hungry muskie will come up 20 or more feet and smash a topwater. This gives me some more confidence because in the summer the first thing I always think when the water is warm is that I have to go deep there is no way a muskie will come up to 2ft to eat my buck tail. But shockingly enough it sounds like musky actually use the entire water column lol. |
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Posts: 8729
| That's the problem with muskie fishing. 9 times out of ten the fish aren't actively feeding. That's when it becomes important to get a bait down in front of their faces and make them eat it. The one time out of ten where they're actually active, there's nothing you can do to stop them short of taking your lure out of the water. Just don;t leave it hanging over the side of the boat.... |
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Location: Apparently where the Muskie aren't | esoxaddict - 6/1/2017 2:32 PM
Just don;t leave it hanging over the side of the boat....
To late, already made that mistake. Lac viuex, about a $240 setup went over. Of course this is the closest I've ever got to catching a Muskie and sure enough there goes the rod. Thank god it was just a bass rod because I don't have any Muskie rods to spare. Could have been a weed but I like to think it was a Muskie. Better story. Lol |
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Location: oswego, il | Just because a musky can travel 20+ feet to eat a bait does not mean it will. If it does, more often than not, it would be a figure eight fish that followed a lure much that went much closer than that. I would be willing to bet those instances, like the ones mentioned are well outside the norm. |
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Location: Contrarian Island | guess I disagree Todd..haven't you see the videos of muskies following baits being trolled for 100s of yards...?
have had muskies follow suckers for 100s of yards and never eat as well
Edited by BNelson 6/1/2017 3:46 PM
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Location: oswego, il | That is true, i have seen those videos. I wonder by percentage of fish that see those baits if it is pretty low. There could be a willingness to travel farther to eat in open water vs a fish relating to structure.
Edited by ToddM 6/1/2017 4:34 PM
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| I think it's all about the offering,,I don't think twice about climbing the stairs to get a table on the second floor at genos east pizza regardless of what phase the moon's in. |
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Posts: 735
Location: Apparently where the Muskie aren't | It's not so much how far a fish will follow a bait because I feel like if a muskie is following a bait and lets just say your trolling so no figure eight, I think that fish would travel for well over 100 yards and then make a decision to eat it or leave. But my question is, if the bait is not directly in front of their face will they go after it. For example, you are throwing a topwater or bucktail ( or any other bait that runs high). And a muskie is sitting under that bait 30, 40 even 50 foot down, will it come up for that bait or is it "not worth it" or is it not even physically possible. I know me and probably other people want to run baits right down in the fishes face a at 30 foot but is that really necessary to catch those deep fish? |
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| I believe 25' isn't anything to an active fish. I will thrown top water and unweighted suiks over 70' not sure on there actual position prior but I'll have the boat in 22' most of the time and I'm sure not worried about topwater being to far away.
When your standing on the bow of your 20' boat look at the back of the motor that's 20' or so. Not really that far when you think of it. |
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| My preference is to play with active fish if they are there. An active/aggressive fish will travel farther to eat than one that is passive. Give me a couple of fish that will come up and chase my bait before you give me a dozen that have no interest when a bait is right in front of their face.
Also...consider this... When you retrieve a bait deeper in the water column it is not in the perceived "strike zone" as long as a bait is that is retrieved shallower if that's where the strike zone is. The cast is made, the bait hits the water, now in your retrieve you have to crank it down to the desired depth. In doing so that bait is getting closer to the boat. It reaches the desired depth and as it gets closer to the boat the bait starts coming up to the surface. Depending on how deep you want to run the thing it might only be in that "strike zone" for half? two thirds? one third? of your retrieve. Keeping them up higher means the bait is in that zone for a longer distance and your casts/retrieves are more efficient. |
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Location: Apparently where the Muskie aren't | All your guys info is really helping me out. I think I have to be shallow to catch fish on a topwater or buck tail but obviously that isn't the case. Before this thread and the open water trolling thread I was at a road block. I didn't have all the information. I was thinking summer= hot water= fish go deep= I need to fish deep. But now I know that a buck tail is just as effective in 30ft of water as it is in 4ft of water. I think what i thought could have been my reason for lack of success. I would fish buck tails shallow (less than 8') in the summer and the fish were just not there. Because we all hear and think," burn blades on the hot summer days" but I was burning them over the wrong water. And now I know that just because a fish marks at 30' on the sonar doesn't mean it won't come up and eat my buck tail or topwater.
Edited by Musky_Mo16 6/1/2017 10:20 PM
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Location: Ames, Iowa | In most of the lakes I fish (Longville area), there are big fish all over those lakes. Leech fish are notorious followers. One of the last times I was at Moose lake near Deer River we had a baby muskie come zooming in when we placed any bait in the water at the dock. He'd swim away maybe 40 feet- we'd splash a bait in the water- and he'd scream in to check it out. Went on 3 times. I realize this isn't your point, but on Wabedo, we troll the west basin from east to west at the end of the evening across 70-90 fow with Slammers, Jakes, or Grandmas, and had follows only when reeling in at the boat. I always wonder if they've been following all along or just at the end when pumping the bait in. Everytime I troll I imagine fish looking up watching and feeling my bait go by, and know I can get hit at anytime by a positive fish. |
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| Pro bass fisherman say they use top water to 20' thenn they don't unless they are suspended. They also say a fish will swim x (unit of measurement) given its mood and weather. If x is 5 inches cause they are turned off you have to present the lure inside the window. Now if x is 3 feet your odds are drastically improved. Now in the bass community it is readily known/believed that if a fish will swim 5' for a lure it will swim 3 times as far for a jerk bait so if your throwing a lure that imitates sick/wounded lure like a jerk bait it will cover 15' to eat it. So a 7" joe butcher shallow raider ripped and paused triples your strike zone for muskies as well better hold on. But the technique takes more out of the angler.
Edited by Fishysam 6/2/2017 9:11 AM
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| are you saying a fish will move further for a jerkbait than a topwater? |
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| Clear water, I once had a muskie react from at least 50 yards away when my bucktail hit the water. My brother saw it too. Made a beeline for it. Pretty awesome to know it's going to hit and there's literally a few seconds to wait. It did hit, unfortunately only stayed on for a few seconds. |
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Posts: 1971
| Clear water is a big factor.. you cant make a long enough cast in water with 10'+ clarity... Not scientific but based on observation..Aggressive fish will come roughly 3-5X how far WE can see from what I've observed over the years.. If I can only see one foot I know my odds go up tremendously if I can get my bait 3 feet away from where a muskie is lying...if I'm trolling or casting a lake full of shad or ciscos with 10' of clarity (again what WE can see) and I know muskies are hanging around 15'-25' deep... I'm' not worried at all if my bait is only getting 2-5' down...better make bomb casts though  |
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Location: oswego, il | Just because your in deep water does not mean the fish are deep.
Edited by ToddM 6/2/2017 10:55 AM
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Location: Contrarian Island | wow, that's deep man. |
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| Yes I am saying that jerk baits cause a pre-programmed desire for an easy meal and as long as they can see it they will travel about 3 times as far for a jerkbait over a straight retrieved lure. If there negative and will only eat what's wishing 1' then with a jerk bait its 3'.
Edited by Fishysam 6/2/2017 10:30 AM
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Posts: 1971
| Fishysam - 6/2/2017 10:29 AM
Yes I am saying that jerk baits cause a pre-programmed desire for an easy meal and as long as they can see it they will travel about 3 times as far for a jerkbait over a straight retrieved lure. If there negative and will only eat what's wishing 1' then with a jerk bait its 3'.
Cant say I agree with that... Lets say a muskie is suspended 18' down over 50' of water... why would it move 3 times further to eat a jerkbait vs a slow rolled bucktail both worked 5' from the surface.. its going to overtake either presentation in about .7 seconds if it wants to .. |
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| Drives them crazy! Now I totally agree if visibility is low a jerk bait is harder for a fish to feel where it is located and actually hurt you odds. But the erratic action and the pause of no movement makes fish snap |
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Location: oswego, il | I agree an erratic bait with a pause can get a great reaction from a musky. There is nothing to support how far a fish will travel to eat a bait. In my example, the splash of the lure hitting the water caused the fish to react and swim to the bait. |
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Posts: 1209
| In the bass world with much higher catch rates it is more easy to connect the dots day to day. I do believe in the bass world scientific study's have been done on how far fish travel for what types of baits. In an almost cast to to cast comparison. Agreed if a splash got its attentio there isn't much going to stop it from eating it other than size, being to big to eat |
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Location: Grand Rapids, MI | Fishysam - 6/2/2017 11:50 AM Drives them crazy! Now I totally agree if visibility is low a jerk bait is harder for a fish to feel where it is located and actually hurt you odds. But the erratic action and the pause of no movement makes fish snap You are mixing senses of their lateral line and vision, they're going to "feel" everything in their environment regardless of clarity. Take away the vision from a muskie and it will have no problem eating. Take away the lateral line and it's going to have a difficult time eating, especially if the water is stained/dirty. The highly developed lateral line in muskies is why bass behavior can't really be related to muskie behavior. Bass area sight and scent feeder, muskies are a feel and sight feeder. Try fishing a jerkbait at night or in really dirty water, they'll still eat it.
Edited by Will Schultz 6/2/2017 11:41 AM
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Posts: 1209
| As a fish searches for the last position it felt your lure, you jerk again and it feels it on a different than expected spot. Kinda like Marco Polo in the pool... Where as a buck tail or other lure that has constant vibration the fish doesn't loose it's sense of where it is. If some one spoke as you are playing Marco Polo you would be able to connect with them easily. |
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| Bass that live in dirty water are definitely not sight feeders. They will most definitely survive in 1" clarity |
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Location: oswego, il | Before someone beats you to it, come out with the first fishing lure that emits the word "marco"! I could dig up a bad sweater for the infomercial.
What Will was trying to say is there are differences between the species in the way they sense things. Fish are adaptable to their environment. Water clarity included. Now a fish species tbat moves up the water column a great deal to eat are salmon and trout. Color is a big factor in getting them to eat. They will move 100ft to eat.
Edited by ToddM 6/2/2017 1:56 PM
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Location: Green Bay, WI | Q: How far will a musky (or any fish for that matter) travel to get a bait?
A: As far as it needs to.
TB |
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Posts: 735
Location: Apparently where the Muskie aren't | This is all making a lot more sense. Here's two more good questions.
1. How far down Can a muskie be and shoot straight up to grab a topwater or bucktail? We now know that a muskie (if Hungry enough) will travel as far as it needs to to grab a bait. But.... How far can it physically go, before it runs into a physical limitation roadblock. I'm not talking about how far a muskie will swim horizontally because they could go forever like that since they are very efficient swimmers. But how far up (from the depths) will it come? Physical limitations meaning... Air bladder issues, speed (being to deep to get there in time) (yes I know they are fast) etc.
2. How effective, or what is the range of a musky's or (other fish) lateral line? Lets just focus on the lateral line. Pretend the muskie lives in 1" visibility or is blind. And obviously it depends on the lure so let's pretend its a bucktail (good vibration and a popular bait). And this is obviously something important because if it doesn't know it's there it can't eat it. |
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Location: Grand Rapids, MI | Fishysam - 6/2/2017 2:42 PM As a fish searches for the last position it felt your lure, you jerk again and it feels it on a different than expected spot. Kinda like Marco Polo in the pool... Where as a buck tail or other lure that has constant vibration the fish doesn't loose it's sense of where it is. If some one spoke as you are playing Marco Polo you would be able to connect with them easily. Food for thought... Does any lure stop moving to the point where it isn't able to be felt by the fish? Even a bait that is perfectly neutral buoyant doesn't really stop moving. |
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Location: Green Bay, WI | The Esox species are physostomatous, in that they have a duct which can "vent" their swim bladder. So physiologically speaking, they should be able to ascend in the water column just as fast as they can expel gas. I have never read anything in the literature about the maximum rate of gas expulsion, and I seriously doubt you could ever quantify such an action. Suffice it to say that physostomatous fish are certainly able to more quickly ascend, compared to physiclistous fish like bass and perch. Those fish need to regulate air in their swim bladder through a complex network of blood vessels.
As to the effectiveness of the lateral line, I've never seen anything that quantifies this ability. I do have a book on the physiology of fish, and I'll check that to see if it gives any such information.
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| If your lake stratifies they are likely to be above the thermocline from what I understand. As far as how far they can come up? From what I've seen, I'd say about 3 feet past where the water ends. Only limiting factor there is gravity unless they hit the boat.
As far as the lateral line, I'd say the fact that you can still catch them at night and in muddy/stained water proves it's effective enough. I don't know of any specific studies, but if I had to guess I'd say any fish within a 50 foot radius knows your lure is there.
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Location: oswego, il | I was going to say what Tom said. I do believe certain species can adjust their swim bladder better than others. |
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Location: Green Bay, WI | esoxaddict - 6/2/2017 4:20 PM
If your lake stratifies they are likely to be above the thermocline from what I understand. As far as how far they can come up? From what I've seen, I'd say about 3 feet past where the water ends. Only limiting factor there is gravity unless they hit the boat.
As far as the lateral line, I'd say the fact that you can still catch them at night and in muddy/stained water proves it's effective enough. I don't know of any specific studies, but if I had to guess I'd say any fish within a 50 foot radius knows your lure is there.
Yeah...much below the thermocline and the DO level often drops to virtually nil, because bacteria can use it up and there really isn't much to replenish it. So I don't you'll find many fish below that level, for the most part. At least not the species we're after, which tend to prefer DO levels around about 9 parts per million (PPM).
The best presentation I've ever seen on the effects of temperature-based stratification and dissolved oxygen levels, was from Tom Gelb. I think it might have gotten uploaded online somewhere...I don't remember. He came to Green Bay once to talk on row trolling, back in about 2007 or so, and also included temperature-based stratification and DO levels in his talk. It was outstanding. If it's out there and available somewhere, it would be WELL worth the time to watch the talk.
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| Will Schultz - 6/2/2017 3:45 PM
Fishysam - 6/2/2017 2:42 PM As a fish searches for the last position it felt your lure, you jerk again and it feels it on a different than expected spot. Kinda like Marco Polo in the pool... Where as a buck tail or other lure that has constant vibration the fish doesn't loose it's sense of where it is. If some one spoke as you are playing Marco Polo you would be able to connect with them easily. Food for thought... Does any lure stop moving to the point where it isn't able to be felt by the fish? Even a bait that is perfectly neutral buoyant doesn't really stop moving.
At low visibility the distance where a neutral buoyant bait is felt vs worth hunting must be lowered dramatically |
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How far will a musky (or any fish for that matter) travel to get a bait?