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Posts: 166
Location: Merrill, Wisconsin | Hey Guys,
So I know everyone is different and uses different length rods, different style reels has bigger or smaller hands, ect. But If there was one distinct way to hold the rod while casting to maximize power or efficiency to set the hook, what is it?
I ask this because last season I lost over 11 fish that I "Set the hook on" and I'm trying to figure out why my hooksets were poor. I lost all these fish on rods longer than 8' in length and on low profile revo reels while palming the REEL not the fore grip. Now this season I have landed 3/3 fish all on a 7'2 St Croix MH (Used to be a 7'6) by holding the fore grip not the reel.
Anybody have any ideas or reasons on why to hold the rod the certain way or a certain way to maximize hooksets?
Edited by TheYoungGun_ 5/29/2015 1:03 AM
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Posts: 897
| Holding the rod by the foregrip gives more control and leverage for hook sets, but I'm guessing there's more to why you're losing fish than simply the hook set. Bad luck happens. I lost 11 in a row that I had hooked to start the season a few years ago for no particular reason. Make sure your hooks are razor sharp and keep pressure on the fish during the fight are the most important things in my opinion |
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Posts: 1023
| I palm and usually do not miss fish on the set. But I do know that holding the foregrip should give you more power and control on the set.
A few years ago I was like 1 for 12 at one point. 8.5 rod that shall remain nameless. Expensive rod. The tip was way too whippy for me and just wouldn't drive a hook home no matter how sharp my hooks were. I got rid of that rod, went to a stiffer model and hooksets/percentages are back to "normal".
So if I were you, I'd look at how the rod is held, as you are doing. Then I'd look at the tip action of the rods, the one that lost the fish and the one that is sticking the fish. See which rod type sets up best for you. Then I'd also sharpen those hooks big time and see what happens.
In my case, I need a rod with more of a backbone. Could be that is the case with you, too.
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Posts: 194
Location: Lake Elmo, MN | IMO....If the butt of the rod is against your body as a pivot point on your set, the set is more efficient. I always plant the rod butt end against my lower ribs, and yank up HARD on the part of the rod in front of the reel. The rod actually pivots at the point where it hits my ribs making a more firm set.
This requires buying rods that can fit this scenario (ie....not too long a butt end that you have to put it UNDER your arm instead of at your rib).
It feels like I went 15 against Mayweather after a day on the water but I don't lose fish due to hook-up issues.
Edited by PSAGuy 5/29/2015 8:26 AM
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Posts: 2894
Location: Yahara River Chain | I am surprised that the 1st posters forgot to mention that holding your rod with the dominate hand would also be better than with the other. How is it that you can address foregrip vs palming and not say a word about dominate arm vs nondomiate arm?
Edited by muskie! nut 5/29/2015 8:31 AM
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Posts: 13688
Location: minocqua, wi. | sharp hooks ... doesn't matter so much how you hold it vs. where you hold it. point it to the sky and you'll do lots of cursing ... down and low loaded and you'll swim more into the net. |
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Posts: 1126
Location: Minnesota. | Hmmm,as suggested, it might be more than a typical reader might guess, not being in the boat with you.
Me, I'm a skinny older guy and have always tucked the rod butt under my left armpit and gripped with the foregrip, ahead of the reel. I've always wondered how those pro's (guys) manage with just a grip over the reel. No mech. advantage that I can see but many do it... I couldn't feel right doing that.
I've also lost a few good fish with drag set well, position in the boat perfect for a full-on hard reefing of a strike and had large fish do the "dog-head-shake" thingy and simply toss the bait and this is with very "sticky-sharp" hooks! This with a hard enough set to have the drag slip and I set that pretty tight. Once I asked my son "Nate, what the heck do we do this for?" after a hard set and that dog-like head-shake...it happens!
But if I got 11 misses in a row I'd ask questions too! Good luck with any help here but I'd begin with making sure your hooks are sticky-sharp and work back from there. |
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Posts: 1209
| I bruise my side with the but of the rod but hardly miss hooked fish. Non dominant hand on rod. I feel the a yank is better suited for the clumsy arm and I know if fish swim at you and you can't reel fast enough to keep a load on the rod your going to miss them. So I use my dominant hand to crank fast. Plus I try pulling the crank off of my nacl reels on the set. |
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Posts: 13688
Location: minocqua, wi. | no hook-set at all is better than a bad hook set or one made at a bad angle ... assuming your hooks are sharp |
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Posts: 8721
| I hold the foregrip with the rod tucked under my arm, keep the rod pointed at the lure, and stand in such a way that I can shift my weight back, swivel my hips and turn to the side. When I am reeling, I am anticipating that the next thing I will do is set the hook. The killer for me is not paying attention. You know the scenario. It's hot, you haven't seen a fish in three hours, you start talking about this or that, you get careless with your casts, you start doing lazy L turns... That's when I lose fish. When I'm expecting to have to set the hook any second, I'm usually pretty good. |
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Location: Eastern Ontario | jonnysled - 5/29/2015 12:06 PM
no hook-set at all is better than a bad hook set or one made at a bad angle ... assuming your hooks are sharp
I almost never set the hook and don't loose many fish. I let the fish hook itself ( requires sharp hooks and my hooks have very little barb )and keep the rod loaded without pumping. I often have the fish halfway to the boat before my partner knows I'm hooked up. One of the young guy's I sometimes fish with says " don't you ever get excited ) |
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Posts: 13688
Location: minocqua, wi. | ^yup |
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Posts: 1202
Location: Money, PA | Constant pressure, no slack...The fish will do the rest. |
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Posts: 1405
Location: Detroit River | muskie! nut - 5/29/2015 9:29 AM I am surprised that the 1st posters forgot to mention that holding your rod with the dominate hand would also be better than with the other. How is it that you can address foregrip vs palming and not say a word about dominate arm vs nondomiate arm? Yep, it makes a difference. When I switched from a righty reel to a lefty reel my hook-up to landing ratio improved a good 50%+. A long rod takes up more line on the hook set but you have less torque & less leverage with the longer rod. |
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Posts: 13688
Location: minocqua, wi. | Zib - 5/29/2015 1:34 PM
muskie! nut - 5/29/2015 9:29 AM I am surprised that the 1st posters forgot to mention that holding your rod with the dominate hand would also be better than with the other. How is it that you can address foregrip vs palming and not say a word about dominate arm vs nondomiate arm? Yep, it makes a difference. When I switched from a righty reel to a lefty reel my hook-up to landing ratio improved a good 50%+. A long rod takes up more line on the hook set but you have less torque & less leverage with the longer rod.
ummmm ...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_HuxmF_1Z90 |
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Posts: 2237
Location: SE, WI. |
Yep, Agree with horsehunter. The stiffness of the Rod has little to do with the hooks penetrating. I loose more fish with stiffer rods because they load up less. When a musky grabs your bait, it's like a vise. You will not move it, till the fish opens up...that's when the hooks penetrate. The difference in Rod weights and lengths is for ease in use of different baits...NOT necessarily to set the hook! JD
Edited by jdsplasher 5/29/2015 4:52 PM
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Posts: 67
| I think Horsehunter is right about steady pressure and let the fish hook themselves , He has caught literally thousands of Muskie , i think a lot of younger guys like the big hard hookset for the feeling of control but when you see how the muskie has nailed the bait sideways it would just make it more likely to pull the bait out of its mouth rather than slide into the corner and dig in and of course sticky sharp hooks are a must |
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Location: Eastern Ontario | Like most fishermen Billy ( Trophyhunter ) exaggerates I have caught over 1000 but am still a long way from thousands. He is no slouch himself when it comes to finding lots of big fish. The fish in his avatar is a solid 58 inches. Anyone wanting to experience the Larry in the fall would do well to contact him as he is doing some limited guiding as he prepares for retirement.
Sorry to get off subject but wanted to set the record straight.
Edited by horsehunter 5/29/2015 6:15 PM
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Posts: 32800
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | The power hookset is not delivered by your arms, shoulders, or torso, it's delivered by your wrist. Energy transferred by the rod blank down the line to the hook points depends on the rod loading up properly against the 'spine'. If you move your shoulders and body around during the process, the blank loads less, not more. Hold your muskie rod palming the reel, and see what makes it resist a tied off line the most with the least movement of your body. Those rods were designed for a wrist hookset. Keep your arm in tight as if you are reeling, and snap the rod up with a single wrist flex, USE the power in the rod. If the rod doesn't flex at all, you are not really setting the hook.
The sound a rod makes releasing nearly 100% of it's energy to slap the steel to a muskie is just plain cool.
JD's comment, "I loose more fish with stiffer rods because they load up less." is correct.
I was a 20 something young man when I was schooled on this subject by a true master, and it took a couple times for World master trick caster and pro angler Shag Shahid to get me doing what he wanted me to do; and once I learned, fishing with a baitcaster was quite a bit less tiring for me. The technique is also applied casting to use the energy in the rod blank, not your shoulders, arms, or torso, to deliver long or short, but always accurate casts.
It felt like magic to me when he put that brand new, not yet released to the market Lews BB1 Speed Spool on a heavy action bass rod rod in my hands and in his 'interesting' accent through a bit off cigar swore me into correcting my technique.
All of a sudden I was casting, not just 'throwing'.
I used to do a stage show during seminars back when liability wasn't such an issue. I had a volunteer come up and set the hook on a lure I was holding with my fingertips 25' away. Most couldn't take the lure away. I would then use the same set-up to pop a metal kitchen chair into the air. I shattered a couple rods doing that 'trick'.
Ask Shep, he saw that old 'show' a couple times.
One of the best articles written after Shag's passing a couple years back:
http://www.flwfishing.com/tips/2012-03-27-back-story-no-more-casts-...
Photo Courtesy of our friends at FLW Outdoors.
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Posts: 20180
Location: oswego, il | I am with Sled on this. The other factors are mood of the fish, are they nipping the back of the bait, just hitting in a non aggressive fashion or the traditional t-bone and turn like you want them to? Baits make a difference as well and a difference in these scenarios. Fish will often hook themselves with the right hook. There is a hook out there that is widely popular that I continually scratch my head when people mention it. You really have to drive that hook home hard. I have a buddy that likes them, his hooksets are violent, so much so when we catch a few gills for bait he hooks them on one side of the boat after the hookset they have landed on the other side. The ones that he didn't yank the hook out of anyway. He doesn't catch nippers, and wiffs on non aggressive sucker pickups. He is good on the t-bone.
Edited by ToddM 5/30/2015 7:24 AM
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Posts: 540
Location: Leech Lake, Walker MN | Very Sharp hooks is a MUST not only out there but at boat side a MUST ! |
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Posts: 43
Location: Chicago | Without a doubt sharp hooks! I spend a lot of time sharpening and can't get near my lures without getting bloody fingers.... |
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Posts: 2237
Location: SE, WI. | Another plus to setting the hook IS A WELL BALANCED ROD!!! Like a batter in baseball wants bat speed, A well balanced Rod will help in Rod speed. That added weight in the butt of the Rod will help with the exceleration of a hookset. A balanced Rod will also help with fatigue, which will also help with your reaction time. JD |
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Posts: 13688
Location: minocqua, wi. | scratch my head at the notion of spending big money on lightweight rod technology and then adding weight to it ... accessories sell like colors on baits. |
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Posts: 1126
Location: Minnesota. | An employee at a well known musky shop near me gave me this to think about some years back when I asked the same general question...
"They clamp down on your bait. It's not that you're trying to move the bait but more, keep the rod loaded, bigtime. When he relaxes...the bait catches!". This has been mentioned in this thread.
Some good stuff to consider. My trouble, when I've been pitching for a good while r when I've seen a fish, my "spring" is pretty loaded...but this is still do-able when you keep the rod loaded.
A PB I took last summer inhaled a 9" Suick and my rod is a Thorne Bros. "Bucktail" rod...not stiff at all. I also had a good fish hit me hard - and I was ready for him - but that danged headshake did me in even with a FULLY loaded rod.
Keeps me coming back!
Fun topic! |
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Posts: 345
Location: Poynette WI. | There's a difference to a well balanced rod and just adding weights. If weights are added correctly it does not feel like any weight has been added really. What steve said and taught in his class is some of the best advice I've had the pleasure of learning and I'm not just saying that because steve worralls said it either. It has improved the comfort of long days fishing for me and overall success on hook ups. The other big thing I've really tried to concentrate on is choosing my casting lanes and distances accordingly. |
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Posts: 13688
Location: minocqua, wi. | if you have to balance your rod you didn't buy a very good rod ... |
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Posts: 2237
Location: SE, WI. | ^ I Disagree !!! JD
Edited by jdsplasher 5/30/2015 11:16 PM
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Posts: 166
Location: Merrill, Wisconsin | So wait, let me get this straight. What's considered a balanced rod? I have a few at croix and custom x rods but where do you consider it the fulcrum or the spot where it should be balanced? I usually cut 2-3inches off a rod and use a rubber butt cap from the hardware store meant for the bottom of chairs. I know I've heard of guys using quarters in these caps to "add weight" but at what spot do you consider it balanced? I have a LTB custom sling blade and it doesn't feel balanced to me at all? |
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Posts: 166
Location: Merrill, Wisconsin | So if a soft tipped rod ie a 7'6" st croix MH helps keep fish pinned better, then what kinda rod is the best for say a magnum bulldawg that doesn't over bear the rod when casting. I do fully agree with having a soft tip for keeping fish pinned I just can't find the right tip or action for all my lure preferences.. After reading this I now understand why I lost a ton of good fish on magnum bulldawgs... Stupid broomstick/pool cue rods... |
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Posts: 13688
Location: minocqua, wi. | every rod will "balance" ... adding weight does 2 things ... 1. moves the fulcrum back and 2. adds weight. you can buy rods built by people who know how to build rods or you can phuck with it and think you're smarter than a rod builder but feel good cuz you think it's now "balanced".
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Posts: 2237
Location: SE, WI. |
Throwing mag dawgs and pounders, you simply do not have many options. longer stiffer rods are what you need to fish these baits effectively . it's common place to hear stories of big fish lost, for one, Rod does not load up good, and two, big fish simply dig their teeth into this type of bait...dbl negative here . Too bad bass pro discontinued the Rod balancer...it had 3 ingots which each weighed 1 oz. . I pour my own cigar size ingots to place inside blanks, then also add my Rod balancer to weight (balance Rod ). I also supply a Rod builder with a few from time to time. It's not simply throw some weight in the blank...it must balance like a teeter totter:) A well balanced Rod should basically balance on one or two fingers straddling your trigger. It feels that good. Make sure your reel that you are going to use on that Rod is mounted before adding weight, as that reel is a factor in balancing. Top heavy rods take it's toll on your tendons, thus making casting all day a chore. If your not balancing your rods...you should try it...:) HMMM! I have several rods custom built from some very good Rod builders...all which seem to add weight to the butt end...
Edited by jdsplasher 5/31/2015 1:29 PM
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Posts: 1126
Location: Minnesota. | All this balancing stuff sounds wonderful.
But what happens when you add all sorts of varied baits???
I've got some pretty nice eqpt. -- just never worried about the "balancing" deally. Seems to work great, for an FNG - fanoogie....:-)) |
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Posts: 2237
Location: SE, WI. | ^ The Water balances your lures very nicely:) ^
Edited by jdsplasher 6/2/2015 5:02 PM
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Posts: 8721
| I know a lot of guys swear by this. I don't get it. Lures have all different weights. We use all sorts of different retrieves. Reels are all different weights. Some guys palm the reel. Some guys hold the foregrip.
It makes sense in theory. But I'm still not sure I get it. |
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Posts: 639
Location: Hudson, WI | Could be that the problem is not the grip, hookset, balance of the rod, the lure or any of that.
Maybe you aren't bringing the fight to the fish. Set the hook at a low, sideways angle, one-time, and drag the bastard's head underwater. Lead it to where you want to go with constant pressure and keep the rod absolutely loaded at all times. You catch more muskies by horsing them too much than trying to slow roll them in like you're rigging walleyes on 6 lb test. |
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Posts: 6
Location: Cannon Falls MN | I palm the Reel with my Left hand rod under my left arm finger on the Rod trigger with drag set loose enough for fish to take line on a slam. When the fish hits I put my left thumb on spool to stop it move my right arm to fore-grip and give it a good set. |
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Posts: 1405
Location: Detroit River | jonnysled - 5/29/2015 5:19 PM Zib - 5/29/2015 1:34 PM muskie! nut - 5/29/2015 9:29 AM I am surprised that the 1st posters forgot to mention that holding your rod with the dominate hand would also be better than with the other. How is it that you can address foregrip vs palming and not say a word about dominate arm vs nondomiate arm? Yep, it makes a difference. When I switched from a righty reel to a lefty reel my hook-up to landing ratio improved a good 50%+. A long rod takes up more line on the hook set but you have less torque & less leverage with the longer rod. ummmm ... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_HuxmF_1Z90I had the same reaction as you when Larry Dalhberg had told me that a shorter rod has more leverage but I was thinking of it backwards. Like when you are loosening a nut on your car, a longer wrench will give you more leverage because you are applying force on the end opposite the pivot point (where the wrench is on the nut). With fishing the pivot point is where you're holding the rod & the fish is applying the force on the other end. The fish has more leverage against you with a longer rod but less leverage against you with a shorter rod. If a longer rod gave fishermen more leverage then you wouldn't see those tuna guys using those short rods. |
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Posts: 4343
Location: Smith Creek | If tuna fisherman are casting instead of trolling they use longer rods. How much time do you spend casting for muskies vs. fighting them?
As to weighting a rod for balance, to properly balance a rod to cast pounders you need to add like 30 oz.
Leverage in casting comes from several things, having your hands the right distance apart is the biggest. |
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Posts: 9
| @horsehunter:
Wich kind of bait do you use when you work without hookset?
Work that with every kind of bait? Or only with hard baits like blades, spoons and crankbaits. Is there no problem with big rubber baits that the fish can grab hard with his teeth? |
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Posts: 656
Location: Forest Lake, Mn. | I've done quite a bit of trolling over the years. Here I'm allowed to use only 1 line so when I troll I just hold the rod rather than use a rodholder. I can be trolling along with a multihook crankbait with very sharp hooks at anywhere from 2 to 6+ m.p.h. and a fish will hit the lure, about tear my arm out of it's socket, and still not hook up and get off. You would think that a fish hitting a lure like that at that speed would HAVE TO hook up... but sometimes they don't.
With this in mind, I don't think how you hold your rod while casting and setting the hook is going to make that much of a difference in the long run. You could do everything perfectly and still not hook up.
Fish get off, it happens... it's ok to cuss a lot or even cry a little.
Edited by fishpoop 6/21/2015 6:17 AM
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Posts: 1000
| Sharpened hooks don't always solve the problem, but they can compensate for bad hooksets. I used to lose a lot of fish. Now I'm constantly touching my hooks and rarely miss fish *knock on wood* |
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